Football Manager 2021 Official Feedback Thread

[Double0Seven]

13 minutes ago, anagain said:

I still don't understand the logic that says saving two clicks is a massive bonus. I think the welcome is a nice touch that adds immersion, and I fully understand that not everyone is fully needing of immersion in the way that I am in games. I would have no issue is the summary was instant after the last question, or if it was moved to the inbox.

Granted I am someone that still does all my screenshots the old fashioned way. I will prtscn, paste to paint, snip and save. I like to see the stages. And I take a lot of screenshots because I write up my saves in career updates.

I just don't see the issue here. I probably never will.

Ok now what if we add 10 more clicks? Its just a few more extra seconds? You wont mind? 

You dont need to understand something to understand how other people might feel about it. 

Also no one said its a massive bonus. Stop making that up yourself to score a point against people who never said that. 

[anagain]

3 minutes ago, MatthewS17 said:

Who's suggesting that? What I'm suggesting is that they provide a little more clarity on matters, especially given my save is at a complete halt till the youth intake bug is fixed. 

It's been a week now since the update that hasn't worked, so some understanding of where they're at is useful, rather than complete radio silence. 

And what do you want them to say? Should they come on and report that they're still working on it? What good would that do? 

I get that you are frustrated. It is a considerable bug that impacts a lot of saves.

Just accept that they will be working on it and when they have success they will let us know.

[kiwityke]

4 minutes ago, anagain said:

Thank you, and not really. 

I want to suggest a new FB(R). At some point I have to do an extra click to point to which position I am bringing up. In the case of the game at present that is before. Alternatively I could click add and then I would still have to suggest it is FB(R) I am looking for. Either way I have to click on the position.

That's an interesting saying, but I think it is technically hoisted or hoist with your own petard. Granted I had to look it up.

I will argue that the screen that confused me was not really intuitive though. I might bug that as feedback, though I suspect it has been.

I do appreciate you filling me in on that though.

I literally spent 5 minutes this morning trying to do exactly the same thing before I worked out how to get them to add a new agenda item to the meeting.

I too needed a right back strangely.

(You are right on being hoisted by a petard, however where I'm from people say hung, dunno why)

[anagain]

2 minutes ago, Double0Seven said:

Ok now what if we add 10 more clicks? Its just a few more extra seconds? You wont mind? 

You dont need to understand something to understand how other people might feel about it. 

Also no one said its a massive bonus. Stop making that up yourself to score a point against people who never said that. 

It might be an extra ten clicks over the course of a season. Maybe even over the course of a month. Unless you are doing them all at the same time then I still honestly do not see the issue. I am not saying this just to get some sort of smug kick. I honestly don't see a problem.

It is like I replied to @kiwityke above. There might be an extra click in the adding of a position search that he replied to me on (or there might not - that's another subject), but my further thought is that it is an addition to add immersion. If it was a click addition for the sake of it then that would be very different. There are also a number of mechanics in the game where it makes more intuitive sense to have another click. For instance, in the case of team talks and body language, how do you allow the use of body language with having the need to click on it? Maybe you could have each question have a replica for each body language. You would save a click but have a screen filled with options.

This all adds up to why UI design is such a huge area in game development. Dev treams have UI design specialists because it is such a big area. Finding the perfect solution can often be a lengthy job.

We're probably filling up the feedback thread with lenghty discussion on one area now though. It's not like we're convincing each other either.

I do honestly understand your point, but I think that a) it is not so huge an issue for me as it will be for some and b) I think there are probably legitimate reasons to not assume it is bad design.

[forameuss]

17 minutes ago, MatthewS17 said:

Who's suggesting that? What I'm suggesting is that they provide a little more clarity on matters, especially given my save is at a complete halt till the youth intake bug is fixed. 

It's been a week now since the update that hasn't worked, so some understanding of where they're at is useful, rather than complete radio silence. 

Plenty of people have suggested that.  And they've always been wrong.

I get why people want this, but I echo the question put to you.  What exactly do you want them to say?  Do you want them to come and give you a template post saying "we're still looking at it"?  Do you want them to go into detail about what's wrong and what they're doing to try and fix it?  Wouldn't you rather that the developers just worked on getting it fixed?  I know developers don't need to be the ones giving an update, but that makes it even less useful to have someone else just handing out platitudes.

Trust me, as a developer, there is nothing more demoralising and time-wasting than to hit a major incident, and then being expected to sit on a call or bridge while you actively try and fix it, while non-tech people come and go asking you to describe what's wrong.  

Also worth noting that SI apparently used to communicate a lot more freely with the community, but they got so much abuse that they, quite rightly, withdrew.

Edited December 10, 2020 by forameuss

[anagain]

31 minutes ago, goranm said:

It looks like you haven't chosen a position to which the add new agenda point would apply. Select the position first and then click add.

Had so many notifications this afternoon that I missed your reply until now. Thanks.

[anagain]

When given to option to create a new scout order during recruitment meetings it would be handy to state the need to look for homegrown players.

There doesn't appear to be any foolproof way to do so. I have to be content with looking for players from Luxembourg.

Top right there is an option to search based on objectives from your board. Could there be a way added by which to search based on league rules. I have to field 9 homegrown players in my match squad. My scouts suggested 2 French players that I don't want more of.

The dilemma is that I'd like them to suggest other players, but I would like to prioritise HG players unless someone is excellent.

Maybe it is a suggestion that is more for FM22 and I should add it to suggestions.

 

[tkis]

25 minutes ago, forameuss said:

Plenty of people have suggested that.  And they've always been wrong.

I get why people want this, but I echo the question put to you.  What exactly do you want them to say?  Do you want them to come and give you a template post saying "we're still looking at it"?  Do you want them to go into detail about what's wrong and what they're doing to try and fix it?  Wouldn't you rather that the developers just worked on getting it fixed?  I know developers don't need to be the ones giving an update, but that makes it even less useful to have someone else just handing out platitudes.

Trust me, as a developer, there is nothing more demoralising and time-wasting than to hit a major incident, and then being expected to sit on a call or bridge while you actively try and fix it, while non-tech people come and go asking you to describe what's wrong.  

Also worth noting that SI apparently used to communicate a lot more freely with the community, but they got so much abuse that they, quite rightly, withdrew.

I really don't think that the developers are to blame here. They've been doing great job for years and now suddenly they release a game full of bugs? That's on management and, generally, people way above the developers / QAs. I bet most devs would prefer to fix the existing issues first and then go on with new features but hey, the social media team needs stuff to brag about on Twitter and probably there's a bunch of investors somewhere who want to see an excel spreadsheet showing that the devs team will deliver 50% more features than last year, and then there's already a lot of users who complain year after year that the next version of Football Manager is the same one as last year, so my wild guess is that there's pressure on the devs to deliver new features and probably they're being explicitly told by their managers to first focus on new stuff and then fix the known issues, and that's exactly the thing that leads to problems in software development. And this is why this year not only the new features malfunction but also things that have never been broken are broken.

Someone here wrote they would be happy if the FM team skipped one year to actually polish this game and really take it to the next level and I couldn't agree more with that, unfortunately this will never happen.

Edited December 10, 2020 by tkis

[Arnar]

53 minutes ago, kiwityke said:

I do my screenshots that way too.

Like I said above seeing the same canned pleasantry literally probably 150 times in a season (2 press conferences per game around 70 games per season plus extra) if I get all the way in the cups is really immersion breaking for me personally.

If you play the game on steam F12 takes a screenshot and saves it in a folder for you.

Also sniping tool is handy to take screenshots or snipets of a page

 

[forameuss]

8 minutes ago, tkis said:

I really don't think that the developers are to blame here. They've been doing great job for years and now suddenly they release a game full of bugs? That's on management and, generally, people way above the developers / QAs. I bet most devs would prefer to fix the existing issues first and then go on with new features but hey, the social media team needs stuff to brag about on Twitter and probably there's a bunch of investors somewhere who want to see an excel spreadsheet showing that the devs team will deliver 50% more features than last year, and then there's already a lot of users who complain year after year that the next version of Football Manager is the same one as last year, so my wild guess is that there's pressure on the devs to deliver new features and probably they're being explicitly told by their managers to first focus on new stuff and then fix the known issues, and that's exactly the thing that leads to problems in software development. And this is why this year not only the new features malfunction but also things that have never been broken are broken.

Someone here wrote they would be happy if the FM team skipped one year to actually polish this game and really take it to the next level and I couldn't agree more with that, unfortunately this will never happen.

Yeah, they "suddenly" released a title with bugs.  Except, you know, every other edition of FM having pretty much the same number of bugs. Because every title they will release - and any title any studio will release - will always have bugs.  Why are people acting like this is somehow a markedly worse release than any other even SI themselves alone have done?  I'll look into my crystal ball and tell you with CERTAINTY that at release of FM22, we'll be talking about bugs.  And FM23, and 24...and 25...because that's how software development works.

Edited December 10, 2020 by forameuss

[tkis]

1 minute ago, forameuss said:

Yeah, they "suddenly" released another title with bugs, because every title they will release - and any title any studio will release - will always have bugs.  Why are people acting like this is somehow a markedly worse release than any other even SI themselves alone have done?  I'll look into my crystal ball and tell you with CERTAINTY that at release of FM22, we'll be talking about bugs.  And FM23, and 24...and 25...because that's how software development works.

Maybe because it is? There's still a couple of unfixed game-breaking bugs, many people are complaining about the game being too easy, lot of stuff from past years that was reported as bugs is still not fixed...

[anagain]

4 minutes ago, tkis said:

Someone here wrote they would be happy if the FM team skipped one year to actually polish this game and really take it to the next level and I couldn't agree more with that, unfortunately this will never happen.

I said something along those lines recently, but I wouldn't suggest it in a normal year. I suggested it because of the way people are so entitled in this day and age and what SI would be putting on themselves.

Bugs are inevitable. You are never going to get rid them, and they are even more inevitable when a game gets to the scope that FM has gotten to.

Look at Cyberpunk. It has released today and many are saying it is buggy. CDPR already had one delay and look at the fallout from that. They got death threats. CDPR are their own publishers and they chose to release now rather than delay again.

I don't pretend to know the full situation at SI and how their relationship is with Sega, but I think they possibly needed to release this year, and every year. I still think they came through bloody brilliantly for such a disturbed year too.

I just feel for the devs there with the way people are.

[joshpmilton]

23 minutes ago, anagain said:

Top right there is an option to search based on objectives from your board. Could there be a way added by which to search based on league rules. I have to field 9 homegrown players in my match squad. My scouts suggested 2 French players that I don't want more of.

Wait, what? See, this is the kind of thing that makes some of the aspects of this UI so difficult to use. This should be really clear, as I have a few objectives and I wasn't sure how I'd go about doing that myself. I'm sure I'm not the only one who didn't realise that was an option.

 

Edit: formatting.

Edited December 10, 2020 by joshpmilton

[forameuss]

1 minute ago, tkis said:

Maybe because it is? There's still a couple of unfixed game-breaking bugs, many people are complaining about the game being too easy, lot of stuff from past years that was reported as bugs is still not fixed...

It's not the best release they've had, but it's pretty far from the worst SI have done, let alone in the wider industry.

And whether it is or not, your post reads like this is suddenly a shock that a game that ALWAYS has bugs...has bugs.  Obviously the ones they have are not great at all, but this is a game - metaphorically and literally - that we've all played before.  Things are going to slip through the net, and those things are often going to seem obvious.  And those serious things will likely be fixed.  See you next year for the same routine.

[anagain]

1 minute ago, joshpmilton said:

 

You need to write outside the "quote box", buddy. Maybe a one time mistake but thought I'd mention it. 

As a rule explore screens fully. You never know what you'll find.

I can't remember what the little dreag down box said first, something like addons. I was looking for an option to select homegrowns as a requirement and found the board objectives.

It is in the same place as a filter would be on player rosters.

[CaptCanuck]

20 minutes ago, tkis said:

I really don't think that the developers are to blame here. They've been doing great job for years and now suddenly they release a game full of bugs? That's on management and, generally, people way above the developers / QAs. I bet most devs would prefer to fix the existing issues first and then go on with new features but hey, the social media team needs stuff to brag about on Twitter and probably there's a bunch of investors somewhere who want to see an excel spreadsheet showing that the devs team will deliver 50% more features than last year, and then there's already a lot of users who complain year after year that the next version of Football Manager is the same one as last year, so my wild guess is that there's pressure on the devs to deliver new features and probably they're being explicitly told by their managers to first focus on new stuff and then fix the known issues, and that's exactly the thing that leads to problems in software development. And this is why this year not only the new features malfunction but also things that have never been broken are broken.

Someone here wrote they would be happy if the FM team skipped one year to actually polish this game and really take it to the next level and I couldn't agree more with that, unfortunately this will never happen.

Sure there maybe things that have been in the product for years and that management should definitely be the ones to really get an earful; however, regressions from one version to the next aren't existing issues. They are something they broke - for one reason or the other - during new feature development and couldn't be arsed to fix - or more worryingly genuinely didn't see in such obvious areas - before releasing the product:

• Passing network not being displayed
• Personal instructions highlighting options you didn't select and being able to select the one you want
• Tactics/formation screen showing red areas after every drag and drop
• Inability to access and export recorded highlights
• League schedule maker being broken
• so on and so forth...

None of these are ME behaviour or UI interactions someone thinks are naff, these are straight up functional bugs. If obvious bugs like this make it to the GA version you have serious problems with your release management process and overall acceptance at the product development level of what they think is 'good enough'.

I'm sure many of us have worked at places held together with chewing gum and string, it's not an excuse. You set up test automation to cover regressions, which is a tedious process to do manually, and when they crop up you fix them, and sure you can downgrade some and release, but when the totality is such as we have it, even ones you downgrade and skip turn that snowball into an avalanche.

Despite my better senses, I am plugging away with this game that I bought and enjoying the ME more and looking forward to uncovering some 'hidden gems' and the other good parts of the game, but I've learnt my lesson and come FM22 I either pass or wait until a major later winter/early spring maintenance release comes along to finally make it GA quality.

Edited December 10, 2020 by CaptCanuck

[joshpmilton]

2 minutes ago, anagain said:

You need to write outside the "quote box", buddy. Maybe a one time mistake but thought I'd mention it. 

As a rule explore screens fully. You never know what you'll find.

I can't remember what the little dreag down box said first, something like addons. I was looking for an option to select homegrowns as a requirement and found the board objectives.

It is in the same place as a filter would be on player rosters.

Thanks - I was trying to trim down the quote, thought I'd removed your quote and then got in a mess.

I should really be more aware of just click everywhere just in case, but if that's not a damning statement in itself then I don't know what is!

[tkis]

1 minute ago, forameuss said:

It's not the best release they've had, but it's pretty far from the worst SI have done, let alone in the wider industry.

And whether it is or not, your post reads like this is suddenly a shock that a game that ALWAYS has bugs...has bugs.  Obviously the ones they have are not great at all, but this is a game - metaphorically and literally - that we've all played before.  Things are going to slip through the net, and those things are often going to seem obvious.  And those serious things will likely be fixed.  See you next year for the same routine.

I've been playing Football Manager since the franchise started and for the past couple years I've been getting more and more frustrated with issues that I don't recall seeing in previous versions and which affect the most important aspects of the game. So it's not like I'm super happy with previous versions and now I'm angry at FM 21. You sound as if you're thinking that bugs are some magical and mysterious creatures that just appear in software and there's nothing you can do about it, but actually if they only decided to skip a couple of new features they could've probably delivered a much more stable game.

[forameuss]

5 minutes ago, CaptCanuck said:

I'm sure many of us have worked at places held together with chewing gum and string, it's not an excuse. You set up test automation to cover regressions, which is a tedious process to do manually, and when they crop up you fix them, and sure you can downgrade some and release, but when the totality is such as we have it, even ones you downgrade and skip turn that snowball into an avalanche.

But you can do all that, and still get fairly serious issues.  It's not as simple as saying "well, you just put this stuff into practice and you'll be fine".  I work on a hugely convoluted and utterly ramshackle trading and risk management system.  It's, like you say, held together with chewing gum.  We tried the string, but people kept untying it.  We have a huge degree of automated testing, unit testing, regression testing, and no piece of code should be released that isn't covered by some testing.  Care to guess how many problems still lie within the system, and how many crop up every single day?  I've also lost count of the number of times I've sweat blood, tears, and everything else getting things ready, testing them to death, being so confident in them, and then within hours of going live you notice something you absolutely should have seen.  Sure, some of those times that's completely my fault, but there is rarely any testing strategy that's 100% infallible, particularly on massively complex systems, and definitely in those with a massive and unpredictable userbase.

  

1 minute ago, tkis said:

I've been playing Football Manager since the franchise started and for the past couple years I've been getting more and more frustrated with issues that I don't recall seeing in previous versions and which affect the most important aspects of the game. So it's not like I'm super happy with previous versions and now I'm angry at FM 21. You sound as if you're thinking that bugs are some magical and mysterious creatures that just appear in software and there's nothing you can do about it, but actually if they only decided to skip a couple of new features they could've probably delivered a much more stable game.

And you sound like someone who knows next to nothing about the software development process.  It's great that you jumped to "magical and mysterious creatures" thinking it was some hyperbolic, flippant thing when it's probably not far from the truth..  If you're working on a complex system - I do, and FM is another example - you can code something fairly banal and boring, and something you didn't expect and can't come close to explaining can happen somewhere completely different.  

And of course it's finished with an aaaaakkkchually, explaining that if you just stopped new features then it'd be all hunky dory.  No way we'll get bugs if we don't add anything new, right?  Not like doing anything can lead to bugs, or that regression is a thing, right?

Edited December 10, 2020 by forameuss

[anagain]

1 minute ago, tkis said:

I've been playing Football Manager since the franchise started and for the past couple years I've been getting more and more frustrated with issues that I don't recall seeing in previous versions and which affect the most important aspects of the game. So it's not like I'm super happy with previous versions and now I'm angry at FM 21. You sound as if you're thinking that bugs are some magical and mysterious creatures that just appear in software and there's nothing you can do about it, but actually if they only decided to skip a couple of new features they could've probably delivered a much more stable game.

Bugs do appear. Maybe not by magic, but they do appear. They appear more often when a game gets bigger, and games are getting bigger. Anthem, Cyberpunk, Fallout 76, No Man's Sky, Sim City. The list goes on.

Hell, I remember the launch of WoW. That was a mess.

Game developement is no magical science. Devs would love it to be, but it just isn't.

[kiwityke]

9 minutes ago, CaptCanuck said:

I've learnt my lesson and come FM22 I either pass or wait until a major later winter/early spring maintenance release comes along to finally make it GA quality.

Said yesterday the entire games industry is essentially training its entire consumer base to do exactly this by releasing the MVP (minimum viable product) on release.

I already do with essentially all other games bar FM. I wasn't going to buy FM21 due to hating FM20. I bought it and to be honest I don't regret it. I'm loving the ME and general play, bugs are annoying and yeah a bit more numerous but nothing truly game breaking as yet.

[CaptCanuck]

1 minute ago, forameuss said:

But you can do all that, and still get fairly serious issues.  It's not as simple as saying "well, you just put this stuff into practice and you'll be fine".  I work on a hugely convoluted and utterly ramshackle trading and risk management system.  It's, like you say, held together with chewing gum.  We tried the string, but people kept untying it.  We have a huge degree of automated testing, unit testing, regression testing, and no piece of code should be released that isn't covered by some testing.  Care to guess how many problems still lie within the system, and how many crop up every single day?  I've also lost count of the number of times I've sweat blood, tears, and everything else getting things ready, testing them to death, being so confident in them, and then within hours of going live you notice something you absolutely should have seen.  Sure, some of those times that's completely my fault, but there is rarely any testing strategy that's 100% infallible, particularly on massively complex systems, and definitely in those with a massive and unpredictable userbase.

Fair enough. It's good to hear you're an on the ball pro. We should all make the effort to be :-) We used to do some crazy all hands on deck UAT in the middle of the night before pushing product, only to find something and then need to come back the next night and do it again, such was life there.

Neither yours nor mine examples, help me see my passing networks or update my position instructions. Taking those to items for example, I just don't see how anything that was added in FM21 could easily break those? And that how incredibly obvious they are and genuinely impactful on your ability to set up and change your tactic, which in turn means how your team plays and the results - where the genuine joy of FM is - should have meant they were fixed before GA.

Anyhoo, I've complained enough into this empty wind tunnel, as I said in previous post, I've learned my lesson and will know what to do next time.

[tkis]

12 minutes ago, forameuss said:

But you can do all that, and still get fairly serious issues.  It's not as simple as saying "well, you just put this stuff into practice and you'll be fine".  I work on a hugely convoluted and utterly ramshackle trading and risk management system.  It's, like you say, held together with chewing gum.  We tried the string, but people kept untying it.  We have a huge degree of automated testing, unit testing, regression testing, and no piece of code should be released that isn't covered by some testing.  Care to guess how many problems still lie within the system, and how many crop up every single day?  I've also lost count of the number of times I've sweat blood, tears, and everything else getting things ready, testing them to death, being so confident in them, and then within hours of going live you notice something you absolutely should have seen.  Sure, some of those times that's completely my fault, but there is rarely any testing strategy that's 100% infallible, particularly on massively complex systems, and definitely in those with a massive and unpredictable userbase.

  

And you sound like someone who knows next to nothing about the software development process.  It's great that you jumped to "magical and mysterious creatures" thinking it was some hyperbolic, flippant thing when it's probably not far from the truth..  If you're working on a complex system - I do, and FM is another example - you can code something fairly banal and boring, and something you didn't expect and can't come close to explaining can happen somewhere completely different.  

And of course it's finished with an aaaaakkkchually, explaining that if you just stopped new features then it'd be all hunky dory.  No way we'll get bugs if we don't add anything new, right?  Not like doing anything can lead to bugs, or that regression is a thing, right?

Dude, you just wrote that you're working on a huge trading and risk management system and then went on to pretty much saying that it's OK that it's "held with chewing gum". I think there might be a person who knows nothing about software development process between us but it ain't me.

EDIT: by the way, I have no idea why you're defending the FM team so fiercely, especially that what I initially wrote is basically that I feel for the devs and I'm angry at the people in charge who likely could've made a couple of different decisions which would simply allow the devs to do their jobs better and for us to have a better game.

Edited December 10, 2020 by tkis

[CaptCanuck]

2 minutes ago, kiwityke said:

Said yesterday the entire games industry is essentially training its entire consumer base to do exactly this by releasing the MVP (minimum viable product) on release.

I already do with essentially all other games bar FM. I wasn't going to buy FM21 due to hating FM20. I bought it and to be honest I don't regret it. I'm loving the ME and general play, bugs are annoying and yeah a bit more numerous but nothing truly game breaking as yet.

Getting your MVPs done so your marketing team has some pillars to set the release on and being relatively bug free are not mutually exclusive ;-)

Not being a gamer - apart from football - my business/productivity software/apps expectations are obviously out of skew with what I should expect in this industry, based on the feedback here. As I said above, I now know to level them and voila they 'win'.

But yes like you I am getting around to enjoying the ME - and the good behaviour we've gained vs the few areas where we've lost - working on tactics, and of course having an updated database is fun for the first few seasons. So yes, let's focus on the good... at least for a bit.

[forameuss]

13 minutes ago, CaptCanuck said:

Fair enough. It's good to hear you're an on the ball pro. We should all make the effort to be :-) We used to do some crazy all hands on deck UAT in the middle of the night before pushing product, only to find something and then need to come back the next night and do it again, such was life there.

Neither yours nor mine examples, help me see my passing networks or update my position instructions. Taking those to items for example, I just don't see how anything that was added in FM21 could easily break those? And that how incredibly obvious they are and genuinely impactful on your ability to set up and change your tactic, which in turn means how your team plays and the results - where the genuine joy of FM is - should have meant they were fixed before GA.

Anyhoo, I've complained enough into this empty wind tunnel, as I said in previous post, I've learned my lesson and will know what to do next time.

Oh don't worry, pro is not what I'd use to describe the operation!  I completely see where you're coming from.  I expect your average user will look at this and question "how could this even happen?"  I just know from experience that I've been on the other side of that, where users will probably be saying exactly the same thing, and in those cases I'm probably saying the same to myself.  Maybe you got such tunnel-vision working on something that you've heavily tested the 95% while completely neglecting the 5%, maybe you've covered points 1 through 9, then scoffed that anyone would do 10 right before the user repeatedly does 10.  

12 minutes ago, tkis said:

Dude, you just wrote that you're working on a huge trading and risk management system and then went on to pretty much saying that it's OK that it's "held with chewing gum". I think there might be a person who knows nothing about software development process between us but it ain't me.

Care to point out where I said the bolded part?  It is what it is.  Are you genuinely that naive to believe that every system is 100% perfect?  Do you know that there's actually entire teams - many, many of them in fact - whose entire job it is to react and coordinate production issues?  You think they just hire them to twiddle their thumbs?  Or do you think they hire them because systems quite often go wrong because complex systems likely aren't the most stable?  Have you heard of THERAC-25?  Ariane 5?  Knight Capital losing an absolute fortune in minutes?  All extremely critical systems, all riddled with bugs to the tune of financial loss or even loss of life.  So that even the most critical systems aren't guaranteed to be bug-free.

Now on to the "chewing-gum" analogy.  Now imagine a complex system with hundreds, maybe even of thousands of interconnected modules.  Now imagine that items inside those modules are also connected, and then that the majority of those links you have no idea about, and are held together loosely with this imaginary chewing gum.  Welcome to complex, modern systems.  Get to know them.

Edited December 10, 2020 by forameuss

[HUNT3R]

And with that, it's best to get back to actual feedback on the game.  

[Leon_fogo]

I'm seeing people complaining about this FM, saying it's the worst in history. Did you play FM 2016? FM 2013? For me these versions were ridiculous!
The 2013 version had a lot of changes and was not as well optimized as there were many patches that fixed some problems and created others! The 2016 version was considered an error (Cruzamento Manager), it only had plays like this and goals like this.

I'm really enjoying the ME of this version 2021, the tactic fits, the players respond, the game is fluid and the movements are realistic. It has dynamics and mainly real football simulation! The transfer market has been improved, the interaction is happening ...

I'm just sad that the lags and stutters are occurring either in a very high setting or in a very low setting, the game needs to be better optimized. I have a good card and a good PC to play this game fully! I'm directly on Sega's support and I believe they will release a patch before Christmas, they are certainly seeing the forum here and the errors posted, let's help guys!

What I think this version can improve outside of ME is a more basic interface and some training updates, something more could be developed so we can train and see the results.

And I really hope for an optimization with Windows 10 which is a totally crazy system kkkkk

[ImDaWeasel]

11 minutes ago, Leon_fogo said:

I'm seeing people complaining about this FM, saying it's the worst in history. Did you play FM 2016? FM 2013? For me these versions were ridiculous!
The 2013 version had a lot of changes and was not as well optimized as there were many patches that fixed some problems and created others! The 2016 version was considered an error (Cruzamento Manager), it only had plays like this and goals like this.

I'm really enjoying the ME of this version 2021, the tactic fits, the players respond, the game is fluid and the movements are realistic. It has dynamics and mainly real football simulation! The transfer market has been improved, the interaction is happening ...

I'm just sad that the lags and stutters are occurring either in a very high setting or in a very low setting, the game needs to be better optimized. I have a good card and a good PC to play this game fully! I'm directly on Sega's support and I believe they will release a patch before Christmas, they are certainly seeing the forum here and the errors posted, let's help guys!

What I think this version can improve outside of ME is a more basic interface and some training updates, something more could be developed so we can train and see the results.

And I really hope for an optimization with Windows 10 which is a totally crazy system kkkkk

This year is far from being the worst but was agonisingly close to being the best if it wasn't for the unnecessary changes and introductions.

[rodau]

Gonna wait the patch. For now FM2021 is unplayable. I have any defend at all and AI's scores almost all their goals from throw in or a long ball through my frozen defenders.

As the guy earlier said, yes, FM2021 so far is the worst FM ever!. Even worst than the discusting FM2020.

[LucasBR]

9 minutes ago, rodau said:

Gonna wait the patch. For now FM2021 is unplayable. I have any defend at all and AI's scores almost all their goals from throw in or a long ball through my frozen defenders.

As the guy earlier said, yes, FM2021 so far is the worst FM ever!. Even worst than the discusting FM2020.

I don't think is unplayable but I agree that the defensive AI should be a lot better than it is right now, when playing the beta I didn't have all of these problems.

[srvngrc]

Mostly i liked game this year but there is few things to criticise. First of all number of blocked crosses are too much. This should be fixed. Second, goalkeeper ratings seemed a bit low to me. And last i think there is a problem with ccc and cc calculations.

[samdiatmh]

2 minutes ago, srvngrc said:

Second, goalkeeper ratings seemed a bit low to me.

#DeployTheSuperKeeper

 

although given that that came against Liverpool, I'd have been surprised if he got anything lower

Edited December 10, 2020 by samdiatmh

[Lord Rowell]

1 hour ago, rodau said:

Gonna wait the patch. For now FM2021 is unplayable. I have any defend at all and AI's scores almost all their goals from throw in or a long ball through my frozen defenders.

As the guy earlier said, yes, FM2021 so far is the worst FM ever!. Even worst than the discusting FM2020.

I haven't seen that at all. Tbh if that's happening to you, then you need to pay some attention to your defensive set-piece setup.

I think this ME is the best I've seen in a long time.

[Leon_fogo]

3 hours ago, srvngrc said:

Este ano gostei principalmente de jogos, mas há poucas coisas a criticar. Em primeiro lugar, o número de cruzamentos bloqueados é muito grande. Isso deve ser corrigido. Em segundo lugar, a classificação do goleiro parecia um pouco baixa para mim. E, por último, acho que há um problema com os cálculos de ccc e cc.

Will we have a patch before Christmas?

And have you been playing your games in 3D mode without any LAG or stutter?

I'm really enjoying the goalkeepers' defenses and also the varied shots ... I'm excited to see the interaction doing very well during the game.

[rodau]

5 hours ago, Lord Rowell said:

I haven't seen that at all. Tbh if that's happening to you, then you need to pay some attention to your defensive set-piece setup.

I think this ME is the best I've seen in a long time.

The throw in is an issue which is under review by SI. Theres nothing to do about it.

This ME is unbearble! High tempo and a bunch of players ahead makes unrealist scores; one can win 7 x 0 and on the next match lose 6 x 4.

The december's patch will make the game playable, but we gonna have to wait the march update to have if this ME is good.

So far, I very disappointed.

[footballmanager1234]

Is it just me or is the base skin these days, as of the purple update actually - simply the best skin...  I think so.  I do not understand why certain people detract from it beyond personal preference as I think its completely functional and good.  Even in the match panels

An example where I think people may go wrong - 

 

stats and numbers for players on player page at good eye height and to the right a little.  

the skin takes an assumption of the numbers needed at a glance, information density and flow, and inflection point to parse the information, without being too deep etc.  I think many custom skins make the mistake of trying to put too much in one spot or trying to be too fancy.  

I am happy of course with the way the default skin/game uses more panels to display the information - it elevates the title beyond a direct/abstract spreadsheet nature with a bit of art, and that is good.  I much rather a banner than a poster or square box and I see the game is putting such things where appropriate.  

The xG stats probably round this out wonderfully.  Its good to get things at a glance - because I do not expect the interface to do all the work for me, but things in my mind as I play 'back-log' up and I will attend to them as needed but may never get there - thus that information is useless to be displayed.  And it is not - I am just saying I think the game has moved in the correct direction though some people think its dumbed down - but a little hunting for info is not a bad thing, and I enjoy the new panels. 

I tried a bunch of custom skins just before and they are no where near the standard.  That was not the case years ago.  Yes I have player faces and competitions I renamed ect, and logos and kits I have too, but more and more the game comes with these.  

I am glad to report this positive feedback.  

And while no match engine is perfect I do not think it needs to be called unbearable.  Its very good and I do not need it to be a 1:1 indivisible with reality.  Good enough to enjoy this game immeasurably and retain immersion, progression and expectation.  

I think it would be a mistake to expect an amazing-game-played-wow! type of match engine.  Its doing more than just trying to impress people with good visuals, so I am happy with it, even more after this years (21) updates.  It may be the case there's a regression since the beta, of which I only saw a few matches from, then bought this lol right away... but I doubt its anything major.  Its always easy to focus on that one blemish but I do not think that way if I can help it.  If its gone from 100 points to 90 thats not so bad but from the way people are speaking its gone from 100 to 60 points, which I highly doubt - the word I am looking for is incongruous.  This game is not that, so it deserves a high rating.  

Yes - some things people think are disjointed - but this should not turn into a streamlined RPG experience - some things should be disjointed - like trying to persuade a room of ambituous athletes doesn't sound easy and should not be, so the interface is not in question there.

About difficulty - teams can always have good runs but I bet you a lot of people saying its too easy are the really good players and maybe they should have dampeners like in many other games (skyrim you can make it difficult for example with lower health ect or more damage) so I think thats impossible in a ME like this for balance, so I do not know what such people ask for.   I would not want to make the game too hard because it could become a case of being too difficult to get a good team on a good run and people complain about that too sometimes.  

90% of any team sport, yes not at the pointy end of the sporting world so much - is about having good players.  tactics etc can handle themselves.  So I do not see why the tactics come under such scrutiny in terms of mechanics.  Or people do not differentiate, I don't know but I see why the game is 'easy', its good for when you're having an off day.  

Beyond that difficulty can be a huge barrier for people wanting to even pick up a game, so there's other reality's to consider.  I may sometimes wish it was harder, and I have taken low teams to high spots/won leagues from low teams in the past I've built and developed, but its definitely not a 'given' for a player of my caliber - I can just as easily sign the wrong player or get it totally wrong myself as to the addition needed.  I guess the players who complain must be exceptionally good.  Its only in the past 5 versions (perhaps) where one could break down such things into more determinable chunks over time and in the moment, in order to see whats happening better in terms of teams power/quality.  I think a lot of things lumped into 'its too easy' are many separate issues.  But I do think a dampener (where people demand the game cheats against them - lol like nba2k 17 was big on that and that title was juicy indeed - they kind of want that I think...which is not the game is hard, but a challenge-me type thing.  Nothing worse than the other basketball team keeping pace more and more, then in the final 20 seconds they can hardly miss!  And then you as the player need to be fully switched on as everyone (in real life) would be trying extra hard, and if you are not perfect you will lose.

Maybe thats what they want.  I am not sure how it fits into a total simulation though.  I do know its more of a 'difficulty of convenience' at specific moments.  But then those same players may throw their hands up in anger at that (even if its a selectable option) and a league can take days to play out, a game of nba 2k can take minutes.  

I dont think they hate the aspects as much as they make out maybe - because a game like EU4 - they added over the years more and more things to slow down world conquest - which makes a lot of sense.  So I think moreso players are looking for maybe fairness/less bugs or what they deem unacceptable, sure, but mostly what would solve that, is more things to slow them down lol.  Like players leaving etc.  I don't know - or if they select several tactics which are too good, players who want to get into spots/more disharmony as everyone is itching to get on the pitch - thus the team fractures, etc.  

So yes LOL I am dreaming up ways for S.I to trash and tear down these really good players carefully put together teams, ala eu4... this above everything else, bugs, tactics, etc... seems to be what will get these guys the most enjoyment - chaos born out of success, becoming bigger and bigger targets.  To me it makes a little sense to get the semblance of a good league happening as is the case with stats now pretty much, then tweak it in excruciating manners, in small little ways to achieve the above for those who dare to doctor the results and their own ability.  

Edited December 11, 2020 by footballmanager1234
more thoughts

[kiwityke]

1 hour ago, rodau said:

The throw in is an issue which is under review by SI. Theres nothing to do about it.

This ME is unbearble! High tempo and a bunch of players ahead makes unrealist scores; one can win 7 x 0 and on the next match lose 6 x 4.

The december's patch will make the game playable, but we gonna have to wait the march update to have if this ME is good.

So far, I very disappointed.

But it isn't too high scoring at all I bet if you posted your league table the AI teams would be under scoring massively and you'd just about be scoring in line with real life. Unless you are using an unrealistic overly attacking tactic then you might have some insane number of goals...

[Overmars]

On 09/12/2020 at 17:22, iAlwaysWin said:

Not scoring enough corners, its not like my players can't get a head on it, its quite the opposite, they always hit it over the bar or the goalkeeper saves it. The beta i was scoring corners but yet we keep getting told the match engine wasn't changed and its outside factors that are causing the change, well if i believe that i may as well believe elephants can fly.

I'm getting at least 10 corners each match, sometimes as many as 15-20. With twice as many corners as in real life, the scoring rate from corners has to be a lot lower to keep scores from getting out of control. Two wrongs make a right...kind of. Of course, watching it play out looks wrong.

Edited to add a screenshot of the first half I played after this post. I had 12 corners in that half, while my opponents had 5. That's a ridiculously high amount and totally sabotages the match engine realism.

Edited December 11, 2020 by Overmars

[OHoh]

55 minutes ago, Overmars said:

I'm getting at least 10 corners each match, sometimes as many as 15-20. With twice as many corners as in real life, the scoring rate from corners has to be a lot lower to keep scores from getting out of control. Two wrongs make a right...kind of. Of course, watching it play out looks wrong.

Edited to add a screenshot of the first half I played after this post. I had 12 corners in that half, while my opponents had 5. That's a ridiculously high amount and totally sabotages the match engine realism.

there's a thread in the bugs forum about this, add some of your pkms here

 

[luka_zg]

I always put my ass man to sort out mentoring groups but when I've tried to do it yesterday on my new save, the option where you click "ass manager to do it" is greyed out and I can't do it. Idk why, any solutions?

[iAlwaysWin]

1 hour ago, Overmars said:

I'm getting at least 10 corners each match, sometimes as many as 15-20. With twice as many corners as in real life, the scoring rate from corners has to be a lot lower to keep scores from getting out of control. Two wrongs make a right...kind of. Of course, watching it play out looks wrong.

Edited to add a screenshot of the first half I played after this post. I had 12 corners in that half, while my opponents had 5. That's a ridiculously high amount and totally sabotages the match engine realism.

What your suggesting is Rubber Banding the Match Engine simply because the corner count is way to high, Si have said they dont do that ever just to balance things. Either the Match Engine is realistic or not, at current am not scoring nearly enough corners to be realistic.

[rp1966]

13 minutes ago, iAlwaysWin said:

What your suggesting is Rubber Banding the Match Engine simply because the corner count is way to high, Si have said they dont do that ever just to balance things. Either the Match Engine is realistic or not, at current am not scoring nearly enough corners to be realistic.

Exactly.  You can't just look at stats without context - now there may well be issues around decision making of wide players when faced up with a defender, attempting the cross when they should recycle the ball. However, without also considering whether those players are playing a high tempo, high-attacking, wing-based tactic the stats mean nothing.

Knee-jerk responses to stats are how strikers ended up getting nerfed for version after version, the behaviour around players crossing into defenders to generate corners needs more nuanced analysis.

 

[ashok_mittal_83]

Hi all, so I'm into about 5 seasons of FM21 (as Hampton and Richmond), having played FM17 last and I must say, I'm quite underwhelmed and feel that there are some very sloppy areas. I've noted them below, but perhaps maybe I'm doing something wrong so would appreciate some help:

1. When I tried buying a scout, it turned out I already had full scouts (4/4). So when it came to him signing, he couldn't and the board gave me the option to add more scouts. So obviously I clicked this button. Now here's the issue. The board don't respond till the next day and therefore you have to cancel the deal and start again - but then that scout won't talk to you and you cancelled the deal. Surely, the board should agree straight away, as I can no longer get that scout for a few weeks/months. An easy fix in my opinion, otherwise the board shouldn't allow you to make an offer for a scout if there's no space.

2. Work permits have been brought up a lot so I'm not debating that. However, there should be filter that allows you to only show players who don't need a WP or will get a WP.. In real life, your scouts would know who would and wouldn't get a WP. It's far too time consuming at the moment. Is there something that allows you to do this which I'm missing?

3. The in game match is my biggest bug bear. It's frustrating that the assistant manager feels the need to tell you other teams scores time and time again and therefore you miss out on key advice during the match. This is annoying and actually quite intrusive. Is there a way to choose what kind of things the Assitant Manager says during matches. I actually sacked my first assistant manager because of this and realised they all do it. When I'm trying to win a match in the last 5 mins, I dont need to know what the other scores are. I need to know, what tactical stuff I should be doing in the match

4. Also in the in game match, I find making subs very difficult and changing formation to see where the players are playing. In FM17, I remember you could make subs when seeing where everyone is playing in a team formation layout which made it very user friendly. In FM21, it's a lot harder. you have to look at players on a list view and make the subs even though the positions are shown. If there is a way to do this, please can someone help.

5. I had a situation where 4 teams offered £5m for Kai Russell my AMR. Then a team from a lower division to the other 4 teams offered £2.2m, and my chairman accepted as he said it was an offer they couldn't refuse. I challenged him and he still accepted. Why would you accept £2.2m when I had previously accepted £5m?!!?? This must be a bug surely. And even worse, Russell ended up joining the L2 club (Salford) instead of the L1 clubs. He would have definitely joined one of the other clubs if the chairman didn't interfere. The was really annoying as I needed the money desperately and 5m compared to 2.2 is massive.

[Wizard boy]

This just seriously annoys me. Adama traore has played 30 games as right midfielder and done well with no complaints but come the end of the season he’s unhappy at my failure to play him in his preferred position as right winger. Because the questions were so limiting there was nothing I could say that wouldn’t annoy him which is what happened and now he wants to leave. happens far too often. This part of the game is just not good at all. 

[Johnny Ace]

4 minutes ago, Wizard boy said:

This just seriously annoys me. Adama traore has played 30 games as right midfielder and done well with no complaints but come the end of the season he’s unhappy at my failure to play him in his preferred position as right winger. Because the questions were so limiting there was nothing I could say that wouldn’t annoy him which is what happened and now he wants to leave. happens far too often. This part of the game is just not good at all. 

I had similar, I had a guy on loan to play as an Inverted Winger, I didn't play him there 100% of the time but I'd say it was close to 90% of the time. Every couple of months his manager would come & have a moan he wasn't playing in his agreed position. We ended up falling out, he hates me & won't consider bids for him 

[evilpimp972]

il y a 9 minutes, Wizard boy a dit :

This just seriously annoys me. Adama traore has played 30 games as right midfielder and done well with no complaints but come the end of the season he’s unhappy at my failure to play him in his preferred position as right winger. Because the questions were so limiting there was nothing I could say that wouldn’t annoy him which is what happened and now he wants to leave. happens far too often. This part of the game is just not good at all. 

I mean you did not play him higher off the pitch and he had to work harder defensively as a result so I can kinda understand him hahaha

[Wizard boy]

6 minutes ago, evilpimp972 said:

I mean you did not play him higher off the pitch and he had to work harder defensively as a result so I can kinda understand him hahaha

He played 30 games with rating of 7.13 and never complained once until the end of the season. Is there anywhere to check about this promise? I know he signed to play as a impact sup but did much better than I thought he would so he got more games. The problem was the questions. Whichever answer I chose was gonna annoy him which then annoys me. 

[joshpmilton]

Right now, The Dugout doesn't work in its existing guise depending on how you play the game. I currently play with Comprehensive Highlights, with the text only between highlights set to fastest. What this means is that for a lot of the game The Dugout isn't on screen at all as a highlight of some description is being played out, and subsequently I am unable to see the stats or feedback that my assistant manager is trying to give me. As I have combined comprehensive highlights with fastest text, this also means that the window between highlights is incredibly short, so any feedback I do get is rarely on screen long enough to actually read, or to action if possible. Sometimes a pop up might appear during a highlight, but there is also lag between it appearing in the dugout and it popping up separately.

Given the Match Stats/Notable Events can be made to stay up on screen permanently, but contains a whole load of dead space it seems odd that these two functions haven't been combined or thought through better. Notable Events feels like something that should be available on the tablets, or actually contain more summary information like the Referee/Weather/Attendance we used to have. If it was in the tablet, like the Visualiser, then you could choose to see it if you liked, but for me it is unnecessary. Ideally, I believe that Match Stats should be possible to customise, just like we can on the tablet, but would be far more useful if we could then keep it up throughout. I refer to those stats alongside my highlights constantly, to give me a sense of how the game is unfolding. Unfortunately, due to the way I play the game, the information on the tablet is rarely on screen, or I have to seriously squint to see it in its transparent form if the highlight is attacking the goal on the right. Having customisable stats, and the maybe advice from the last five minutes on that matchday bar on the left would be much more useful, and most importantly, actually available throughout the game.

TL;DR: I don't hate the concept of The Dugout, or even the Tablet but the way I view the match means none of it is ever on screen long enough for it to ever actually inform me.

[Pav_Makarov]

28 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

We ended up falling out, he hates me & won't consider bids for him

You can deem me as "cheater" for that, but I keep in-game editor for rare cases like this.

For example once I had my GK sold to bigger league before window even opened. Knowing he is going away I've arranged a replacement of even better quality beforehand, So transfer window opens, one in one out and whole team comes to me questioning how could I let him go. All I could do was to promise to get a replacement when replacement was already there.

So yeah, for ridiculous s..t like this I keep the editor around

[samuelawachie]

34 minutes ago, Pav_Makarov said:

You can deem me as "cheater" for that, but I keep in-game editor for rare cases like this.

For example once I had my GK sold to bigger league before window even opened. Knowing he is going away I've arranged a replacement of even better quality beforehand, So transfer window opens, one in one out and whole team comes to me questioning how could I let him go. All I could do was to promise to get a replacement when replacement was already there.

So yeah, for ridiculous s..t like this I keep the editor around

I think many people are opposite to you, like me. Once I use the editor, I feel that the save has been "tainted" and that I've got an unfair advantage over the AI. It just makes the game lose some of its value. Like the bible says, "FM is a honorable thing, with the save undefiled". (: 

Edited December 11, 2020 by samuelawachie