Is there a way to stop defensive teams doing tiki-taka with my team?

[Mitja]

Really like the ME to a degree but got to the point I want to uninstall the game because of some teams retaining possession so well and there seems not much I can do about it. I'm using different formations depending on opposition's. I have tried man marking their wingers it helps a little but it feels to me like I cheat. Tried man marking their holding midfielders with my AM, tried man marking MCs. Tried split block, highest d-line, shortest passing, different mentalities. Still some teams usually those managers who play short passing game + more defensive mentality (I'm managing City) play out of defense so easily with ont touch passing and end up games with 90% passing rates. Is there anything what can be done to stop it?

[Mitja]

Here's my role and duty setup:

DLFa

IWa   APs   IWs

DLPs   MCd

WBs   BPD   CD   WBa

 

[CARRERA]

• Higher or much higher line of engagement
• more pressing
• wide defending
• get stuck in
• prevent short goalkeeper distrubition

to balance out your risk, don’t use counterpress or even add regroup

[Mitja]

3 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

• Higher or much higher line of engagement
• more pressing
• wide defending
• get stuck in
• prevent short goalkeeper distrubition

to balance out your risk, don’t use counterpress or even add regroup

Thanks. Tried it all doesn't help.

[CARRERA]

5 minutes ago, Mitja said:

Thanks. Tried it all doesn't help.

Did you try it all together with sufficient tactical familiarity? I usually don’t have problems with teams play very defensive an short

Edited April 23, 2021 by CARRERA

[Mitja]

All except get stuck but I do hard tackle through OI. I have no problem winning games but can't stand being tiki takad by much weaker opposition.  You can stop such teams bellow 80% passing rates or press effectivly? Does the get stuck in or stay on feet change your marking as TC suggests? Problem is with (zonal) marking in ME that player will press and retreat press and retreat instead of standing closer to opponent. Is there anyway to change that except man marking? It has always been like that It just doesn't work like it is supposed for pressing to be effective. Also fullbacks retreat back imediatly instead of pressing especially if you use counter press. Tight marking and CD always with OI helps but just a little.

Edited April 23, 2021 by Mitja

[CARRERA]

Well, you can’t really kill their pass completition rate, as a low mentality with shorter passing is all about playing safe passes with no penetration, but you still can press effectively and win the ball back quickly to end up with 60%+ possession for yourself.

maybe I misunderstand what you mean by getting tiki-takaed. But that’s how I would approach such enemies. And I never felt like I give up too much possession to the other team.

generally spoke the lower risks the other teams are taking the more risks you can take yourself without getting punished and the more you even need to take if you insist of being the dominant team in terms of possession and and action on the pitch

 

[Mitja]

15 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

Well, you can’t really kill their pass completition rate, as a low mentality with shorter passing is all about playing safe passes with no penetration, but you still can press effectively and win the ball back quickly to end up with 60%+ possession for yourself.

I guess so, it's unbelievable how easy it is to play out of defense without sufficient quality. One touch passing seems the easiest thing in football. As well as 20 plus touches passing strings.

[CARRERA]

2 minutes ago, Mitja said:

I guess so, it's unbelievable how easy it is to play out of defense without sufficient quality. One touch passing seems the easiest thing in football. As well as 20 plus touches passing strings.

Yeah, I think while playing short low risk passes to a high rate is a thing also irl, the ability to actually control the ball is way too high in FM. When watching football matches irl, players who are not well suited technically, do really struggle to make the first touch and control the ball unter pressing, which often leads to clearences. That’s actually not well simulated on FM

[crusadertsar]

@Mitja You just have to be more aggressive in your approach against such teams. There is a reason why high pressing, hard-tacking geggenpress tactics are so successful in the current ME.

 

Edited April 23, 2021 by crusadertsar

[CARRERA]

Yeah get stuck in is really important when pressing high up the pitch, as it allows your players to actually become aggressive and tackle to win the ball instead of just setting the player under pressure in Hope of him makeing a mistake. 

also its not a thing risking a freekick against you when far away from your goal

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, Mitja said:

Here's my role and duty setup:

DLFa

IWa   APs   IWs

DLPs   MCd

WBs   BPD   CD   WBa

 

Nothing wrong with this setup, but what about the rest of the tactic (instructions and mentality)? Why don't you simply post a screenshot of the whole tactic?

[Mitja]

26 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Nothing wrong with this setup, but what about the rest of the tactic (instructions and mentality)? Why don't you simply post a screenshot of the whole tactic?

I manage proactivly, change formation depending on opp. 4231 or 433 usualy. Tactics are all trained fluid. Mentality positive and att, balanced is also trained for tough opponents. I don't like to counter press makes things worse (fullbacks retreating), higher or much higher dline with LOE usualy one notch lower. More or extreme intesnity. Zonal. Assistent OIs and I'm also experimenting. As I said only defensive teams who use shorter passing are problem having 4 players in AM FC strata should be sufficient but... it's not an issue of winning but feeling hopeless and frustrated. My last game was against Norwich and they managed to outpass me with no real threat of course I won the game 4-0. I ended man marking their DLP with my AM and it helped a little but still..

Edited April 23, 2021 by Mitja

[crusadertsar]

38 minutes ago, Mitja said:

I manage proactivly, change formation depending on opp. 4231 or 433 usualy. Tactics are all trained fluid. Mentality positive and att, balanced is also trained for tough opponents. I don't like to counter press makes things worse (fullbacks retreating), higher or much higher dline with LOE usualy one notch lower. More or extreme intesnity. Zonal. Assistent OIs and I'm also experimenting. As I said only defensive teams who use shorter passing are problem having 4 players in AM FC strata should be sufficient but... it's not an issue of winning but feeling hopeless and frustrated. My last game was against Norwich and they managed to outpass me with no real threat of course I won the game 4-0. I ended man marking their DLP with my AM and it helped a little but still..

If you are beating such defensive teams with a score of 4-0, then I don't understand what your issue is ?

[Mitja]

Issue is they outpassed me and I can't figure how to stop them doing it. Will try get stuck in in next match.

[lfds89]

Besides Tactical Instructions, Player Instructions and OI: do you have the players to press high? Aggression, Bravery, Strength, Work Rate, Team Work,...

Other than that: if they are passing for the sake of it and not doing any harm, they are probably just passing between defenders where they have the numbers to do it. Let's say, for instance, they are playing a 5-2-3 with 2 DMs. They can outpass you easily no matter what players or instructions you have if you are playing 4-2-3-1, especially with a CM on Defend Duty. But they'll do it where there's no harm for you and where when they miss you are close to their goal.

[ozilthegunner]

8 minutes ago, Mitja said:

Issue is they outpassed me and I can't figure how to stop them doing it. Will try get stuck in in next match.

By 'outpassed' do you just mean a higher percentage? Or a higher total number? Or something else?
Because, as others have already said, if it is just about them having a high completion percentage or a high total number of passes, then who cares? Mostly like those are a lot of sideways/backward passes. 

But if you really want to do anything about it then a "Much Higher Line of Engagement" combined with "Force opposition inside" can be your friend, depending on your setup. I run it with a 4-3-3 so my front 3/4 (as one of the CMs is often quite advanced) press in such a way as to encourage the opponent to both pass quickly and pass inside where I then have 3-4 (3 midfielders and 1 inverted wingback) ready to win the ball.

I'll admit I haven't paid much attention to my opponent's pass completion percentage or number of passes, but I tend to dominate possession and stop them from having any shots (or at least any shots on target). And often I either score, or at least re-establish possession in the attacking third, through interceptions or tackles in advanced or middle of the park areas

[Zemahh]

If you're a dominant team and your only goal is to stop opposition playing from the back, you could try something more extreme than a 4-2-3-1. I assume you're having issues against formations like 5-3-2 DM, that still outnumber your forwards.

Maybe something like this:

• Standard Mentality
• Higher Defensive Line
• Counter-Press
• Hold Shape
• Lower Tempo

Since the formation is already top-heavy enough, I'd use Standard Line Of Engagement and set up pressing via Opposition Instructions (Close Down Always on GK, CBs, FBs, WBs, DMs). That's to press opposition if they try playing from the back, but stay compact otherwise; maxing out your lines could be a double-edged sword, since they pretty much leave you no space to attack into.

I'd also focus on creating chances patiently, since such an extreme shape could be very vulnerable to counters. AMsu and BWMde should both be defensively solid (Concentration, Anticipation, Positioning, Bravery, Tackling).

I've no idea whether something like that would work, but maybe worth a try. 

[herne79]

You need to post a screenshot of your complete tactic.  Can you also please include some screenshots of the detailed end of match statistics showing your and your opponent's possession and passes?  Some pkms might also help.

This is one of mine for example when I came up against one of these "defensive" teams.

(If you want to know how I do it I wrote about it here a couple of years ago.  Read the blue highlighted posts on pages 1 and 2.  I'm still playing the same way).

[Mitja]

2 hours ago, lfds89 said:

Other than that: if they are passing for the sake of it and not doing any harm, they are probably just passing between defenders where they have the numbers to do it. Let's say, for instance, they are playing a 5-2-3 with 2 DMs. They can outpass you easily no matter what players or instructions you have if you are playing 4-2-3-1, especially with a CM on Defend Duty. But they'll do it where there's no harm for you and where when they miss you are close to their goal.

Good point.  Formation and duty selection can be crucial there's no point of playing MCd against defensive 4141 for example. 3 players marking single striker. When fullbacks retreat it makes them 5.

2 hours ago, ozilthegunner said:

By 'outpassed' do you just mean a higher percentage? Or a higher total number? Or something else?

Total passes. It pisses me off. 

 

2 hours ago, Zemahh said:

Since the formation is already top-heavy enough, I'd use Standard Line Of Engagement and set up pressing via Opposition Instructions (Close Down Always on GK, CBs, FBs, WBs, DMs). That's to press opposition if they try playing from the back, but stay compact otherwise; maxing out your lines could be a double-edged sword, since they pretty much leave you no space to attack into.

Good idea might give it a try but I don't expect it to change things much since my only issue is that pressing player will press and retreat press and retreat instead of standing closer to opponent. Tight marking should do the trick in theory. Man marking does it partially but it's risky and I feel like I'm cheating when I man mark.

1 hour ago, herne79 said:

This is one of mine for example when I came up against one of these "defensive" teams.

 

Yeah some 600-700 is the most I can have but only against some teams, usually those playing direct style. Does AI use man marking ever?

Edited April 23, 2021 by Mitja

[herne79]

2 hours ago, Mitja said:

Yeah some 600-700 is the most I can have but only against some teams, usually those playing direct style. Does AI use man marking ever?

The AI can use the same tactical instructions as we can.

Anyway, you're concerned about "defensive" teams playing tiki taka which I simply don't see and actually tend to enjoy the most possession against such teams.  55% possession against Liverpool (who play gegenpress) for example vs the above 67% "defensive" team.  You say you are on the verge of uninstalling the game and that there seems not much you can do about it, but as you can see from my example there absolutely is.

I know you've read that thread I linked above because you commented in it at the time, although your comments seem to relate to ME issues again.  At some point you need to park the issues you may have with the ME and accept there are things that you can do rather than focussing on the ME.  The ME may not be perfect but that does not preclude us from finding tactical solutions to problems we encounter.

In that thread I even discussed at length tackling teams who park the bus and attempt to play a possession game.  Here and again here.

So, if you want specific advice about what you can do you need to post a screenshot of your tactical system and (ideally) some stats from matches you have played.  People need examples in order to offer specific help, generalisations can only go so far.