The Jack Grealish (and occasionally England) Thread: It's coming home attempt 5782570

[av3ry]

[Baptista_8]

🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

[arenaross]

Congratulations on your new contract Rob / Gareth. 

[Astafjevs]

Some of you guys are going to look so silly when England make the final. 

[Hazzaj]

Even as someone who doesn't mind Southgate that much I can scarcely think of a worse time to make such an announcement. Trust the bloody FA...

[av3ry]

3 minutes ago, Astafjevs said:

Some of you guys are going to look so silly when England make the final. 

Football is about entertainment. Southgate ball is about as entertaining as watching pain dry tbh.

[SouthCoastRed]

6 minutes ago, Astafjevs said:

Some of you guys are going to look so silly when England make the final. 

I’m in the camp of being delirious happy to be made to look silly.

However…….

[skybluedave]

39 minutes ago, Hazzaj said:

Even as someone who doesn't mind Southgate that much I can scarcely think of a worse time to make such an announcement. Trust the bloody FA...

I'm sure the FA have previous for this. Sven defo got a contract a weird time. Maybe Hodgson. 

[ajw10]

I don't think it's weird tbh. What's the alternative? Lampard?

[AM99]

I'm on the fence - I really like Southgate and think he's done a good job on the whole, but some of his decisions have been baffling in the last year or two and the football has been pretty dull in that period. I definitely agree that the timing of the announcement isn't great though.

[Baptista_8]

Alternative? Someone who's achieved or even shown something...anything at club level.

[Baptista_8]

Graham Potter would be my choice because of the way he sets his teams up. If Brighton could finish...

[ajw10]

4 minutes ago, Baptista_8 said:

Alternative? Someone who's achieved or even shown something...anything at club level.

how many club managers become successful international managers?

[Rebs]

Don't mind Southgate and the players tend to like what he's doing it seems....it just appears that we play with the handbrake on so much and we have better players than to do that all the time.  I get that international football is often very close, with possession being a huge factor and limiting the chances as much as possible at the back, but I'd just like to see us go forward a bit more.  I really hope we do that, but I don't think we will, I think we're setup for keeping it calm and careful and it might work, but it is a gamble when you look at the attacking talent in the squad and the way we could play, even if it opened us up at the back.

Stupid time to announce this though, just wait till after and see how we've done.

[Hazzaj]

13 minutes ago, ajw10 said:

how many club managers become successful international managers?

there's a few: Scolari for instance won everything with Grêmio before winning the World Cup with Brazil, del Bosque was European Champion with Real Madrid before he managed Spain, similarly Aragonés won the league with Atleti, albeit in the 70s... and let's not forget the job Mancini's doing right now with Italy!

 

I think both Potter and Chris Wilder would make decent appointments should it all end in tears on the 29th - certainly I don't think it should be too hard to do better than Lampard at least.

[arenaross]

Jack Grealish player-manager. 

[Baptista_8]

Just now, arenaross said:

Jack Grealish player-manager. 

I missed a trick there

[Marc Albrighton]

10 hours ago, ajw10 said:

I don't think it's weird tbh. What's the alternative? Lampard?

I dont think its weird in the sense that behind closed doors they might want him to stay on but I'm not a massive fan of guaranteeing managers 2-3 tournaments into the future publicly seemingly regardless of performance.

[ajw10]

11 minutes ago, Marc Albrighton said:

I dont think its weird in the sense that behind closed doors they might want him to stay on but I'm not a massive fan of guaranteeing managers 2-3 tournaments into the future publicly seemingly regardless of performance.

It wouldn't be a guarantee though? It's a show of faith and if he fails at the next WC he'll be sacked

[TalkSport]

It’s more weird that regardless what happens he’s got a deal seemingly. All a moot point if we beat Germany and get to a final. But if we go out to Germany at home, we haven’t really progressed. Because it would be the same style of nation that we’ve fallen short at. 

He’s basically going to end up being a higher Aidy Boothroyd. A good bloke, that’s lovely in the set up, but constantly displaying the same flaws come knockout football. 

[martinji]

10 hours ago, Baptista_8 said:

Graham Potter would be my choice because of the way he sets his teams up. If Brighton could finish...

I wouldn't mind Potter. I think Eddie Howe would be brilliant though (all moot of course given Southgates going nowhere for the moment) 

[skybluedave]

I wanted Arsene Wenger after WC18 (if things had gone bad). Would have been great for this 3 tournament cycle. Would be 75 by end of Euro24. Think ships sailed on that now though. 

[Marc Albrighton]

19 minutes ago, ajw10 said:

It wouldn't be a guarantee though? It's a show of faith and if he fails at the next WC he'll be sacked

From everything these journos are saying about him being safe regardless of the performance at this tournament i dont really see any reason to suggest he'll be sacked if we had a poor tournament. I think at this point he'd have to walk himself to lose the job,

[themadsheep2001]

25 minutes ago, pearcey_90 said:

It’s more weird that regardless what happens he’s got a deal seemingly. All a moot point if we beat Germany and get to a final. But if we go out to Germany at home, we haven’t really progressed. Because it would be the same style of nation that we’ve fallen short at. 

He’s basically going to end up being a higher Aidy Boothroyd. A good bloke, that’s lovely in the set up, but constantly displaying the same flaws come knockout football. 

He was never getting sacked whatever happened this tournament, would have always had till 2022 minimum

[ajw10]

6 minutes ago, Marc Albrighton said:

From everything these journos are saying about him being safe regardless of the performance at this tournament i dont really see any reason to suggest he'll be sacked if we had a poor tournament. I think at this point he'd have to walk himself to lose the job,

Say we go out in the groups of the next WC or lose to a team like Poland, Slovakia or Ghana in the knockouts. You don't think he's getting sacked for that?

13 minutes ago, skybluedave said:

I wanted Arsene Wenger after WC18 (if things had gone bad). Would have been great for this 3 tournament cycle. Would be 75 by end of Euro24. Think ships sailed on that now though. 

Wenger wouldn't have worked at international level. He'd have hated it because of the reduced workload and also because he strongly believes that national teams should only hire people from that nation

[craigcwwe]

Chris Wilder as an option for England manager after Southgate?! 

No thanks. Back 5 passion merchant.

[Marc Albrighton]

1 hour ago, ajw10 said:

Say we go out in the groups of the next WC or lose to a team like Poland, Slovakia or Ghana in the knockouts. You don't think he's getting sacked for that?

I dont think its a guarantee.

[Baptista_8]

Looking back...how did Hodgson survive not getting out of the group in 2014?

I guess it was a tough group tbf...

Edited June 26, 2021 by Baptista_8

[skybluedave]

Yeah it was the group of death at that WC. And we narrowly lost first 2 games to the 'best' 2 teams in that group. 

There was a lot of clamour for him to go. But FA decided ome more tournament. Which in hindsight was a mistake. 

God knows who'd have replaced him then. Big Sam come in earlier. Maybe Redknapp....

[ajw10]

11 minutes ago, skybluedave said:

Yeah it was the group of death at that WC. And we narrowly lost first 2 games to the 'best' 2 teams in that group. 

There was a lot of clamour for him to go. But FA decided ome more tournament. Which in hindsight was a mistake. 

God knows who'd have replaced him then. Big Sam come in earlier. Maybe Redknapp....

Yeah once the FA decided to not go foreign again after Capello they were limited in who they could appoint. Should have sacked Hodgson after 12 and 14, but the replacements were not appealing at all.

A bit like those suggesting Wilder and Howe as possible replacements. Change for change sake

[Haguey]

At least there are more viable candidates now, there weren't in 2014. 2016 we got Big Sam, 2012 was between Redknapp and Hodgson

Hopefully the FA know now that it's not all about being a good manager in the league, they need to be the right person for International management too. Germany got it right with Low, Portugal with Fernando Santos, etc. Neither were big names or great club managers but it worked.

Potter would probably be a decent shout when Southgate eventually steps down or is removed. Being one of the very few to have managed outside England works in his favour I think.

[Rob1981]

12 hours ago, pearcey_90 said:

He’s basically going to end up being a higher Aidy Boothroyd. A good bloke, that’s lovely in the set up, but constantly displaying the same flaws come knockout football. 

I know people love to throw this around as a criticism.  "Part of the FA establishment!" etc.  But this isn't a Howard Wilkinson or a Peter Taylor keeping things ticking over until there is a better option.  He's completely changed the culture around the national side while he's been in charge.  The new setup at St George's Park, the strategy for youth development, the sports science stuff, recruiting scouts and coaching staff at the other age groups, the grassroots programmes, how England coaches and medics work with their counterparts at the big clubs, the media strategy etc.  He has had a huge input here across the board, made it a full time role and thrown himself into all the detail behind the scenes. The stuff previous managers have either not been allowed to do or else simply haven’t seen it as being part of their job. 

We've finally done what the French did in the early 1990s before they won the World Cup, opened a national training centre that brings all the age groups together to share methodology and given the national job to a manager and coaches that have worked with the players for years at youth level.  The likes of Kane, Sterling, Pickford, Stones etc. have been with Southgate for 6-7 years now since they were first in and around the U21s. 

They talk about a "club culture" with the national side, this doesn't just happen overnight.  It has taken years of work to get to this point, and now we are set up for success over the next 5-10 years in a way that we never have been before.  We've got the youngest squad at the Euros ffs, a group of players that have grown up together and can play the next 4-5 tournaments. No hierarchy, no obvious first eleven, no miserable backup players committing to six weeks away from their kids knowing full well they won't be picked unless there is an injury.  Just a group of lads who know they will all get a chance to be involved on the pitch at some stage, players who love going away with England and being part of the camp and the atmosphere that Southgate has created.  Not different sets of clubmates and individuals that turn up and sit at different tables and can’t wait to get home again.

Yeah, it would be nice to play more attacking football.  But people who want to judge him on performances will be moaning if we take the game to Germany and get pumped 4-1 on the counterattack.  Calling for his head and looking at dour teams like Portugal 2016 and Greece 2004 and Spain 2010 and Argentina 2014 and moaning that they get to finals and we don't.  And if you judge him on results, there isn't a lot to complain about.  We've reached two successive semi finals for the first time in 20-odd years.  Then qualified for the Euros with the best record out of everybody.  Then made a 100% start to the next WC qualifying campaign.  Then gone through the Euros group stage without conceding.  Now we are going into a knockout game against Germany as favourites, probably for the first time in 50 years.  And yet the conversation in here is who should replace him

If we win, it will be our best result in a generation. If we don’t we have been a bit unlucky with the draw and we will have run one of the heavyweights close and kept the game tight. If you take that along with all the context above then it is crazy to talk about replacing him for 2022, especially when the covid fixture changes mean that we are already three games into qualifying.

I know I'm Southgate's biggest fan on here but I honestly don't know what people want from him. 

Absolutely beggars belief that someone wants Chris Wilder phoned on Wednesday morning if we lose.

Edited June 26, 2021 by Rob1981

[Pukey]

1 hour ago, Baptista_8 said:

Looking back...how did Hodgson survive not getting out of the group in 2014?

I guess it was a tough group tbf...

It was a tough group, and the performances weren't anywhere near as bad as people made out at the time or still make out. 

2016 was obviously as big a shambles as possible mind you. 

[Hazzaj]

22 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

...I know I'm Southgate's biggest fan on here but I honestly don't know what people want from him. 

Absolutely beggars belief that someone wants Chris Wilder phoned on Wednesday morning if we lose.

I suppose what I was on about was more who we should look at if we were to lose badly, as in how we played vs them in 2010, rather than if we played decently in a close game and lost by the odd goal or on penalties.

You're quite right in some sense and I agree that in terms of man-management, Southgate's been a marked improvement over his predecessors, and he's also shown an ability to think creatively and be flexible with his tactics. However, he's not also without his weaknesses. At major tournaments so far, it's been common for England to start games really well, but rarely look good for a whole ninety minutes. Often England will look a lot more vulnerable in the second half of games as they start to cede control of midfield, and Southgate's ability to adapt his team in-game and use substitutes effectively is also somewhat dubious.

I'm far from calling for his head right now, but I think if England put in a performance against Germany that shows the team hasn't really progressed significantly in the last three years, then I think his job has to come under a bit of question, naturally.

...

As for Wilder being merely a 'pashun merchant' as if he'd not transformed a group of League 1 and Championship plodders into a tactically innovative and highly organised outfit that upset a lot of good Premier League teams on what was by far the smallest budget in the division... 

[Yuko]

Not sure where to put this, as I see talks of some rivalry fixture. 

 

Who does England National Team consider to be their rivals? 

Because I've seen Germany and France listed, but if you ask those guys, England isn't featuring in their top 3. 

Germans view Italy as their main rivals, with France and the Netherlands following. 

French view Italy as their main rivals, with Germany and Spain following. 

Italians don't view England as rivals, it's again Germany and France. Maybe they view Spain as some sort of rival.

Scotland is rather insignificant (sorry) in the grand scope to be considered a main rival. 

 

Any light on this? 

[ryan045]

1 minute ago, Yuko said:

Not sure where to put this, as I see talks of some rivalry fixture. 

 

Who does England National Team consider to be their rivals? 

Because I've seen Germany and France listed, but if you ask those guys, England isn't featuring in their top 3. 

Germans view Italy as their main rivals, with France and the Netherlands following. 

French view Italy as their main rivals, with Germany and Spain following. 

Italians don't view England as rivals, it's again Germany and France. Maybe they view Spain as some sort of rival.

Scotland is rather insignificant (sorry) in the grand scope to be considered a main rival. 

 

Any light on this? 

Germany, Argentina & Scotland in that order for me. But I might even be tempted to put Argentina first.

[skybluedave]

Germany are the team we want to beat the most. Germany don't feel the same way but that's football. They've had bigger fish to fry. Same way Scotland really want to beat us and we don't want to lose but it's not our biggest game. I mean I'd take losing Scotland but beating Germany all day long

Same way Man City want to beat United the most but United want to beat Liverpool the most. As an example

[Yuko]

1 minute ago, ryan045 said:

Germany, Argentina & Scotland in that order for me. But I might even be tempted to put Argentina first.

Argentina I suppose also views England as a rival after that 1966 World Cup incidents, but they also have more fierce rivalries with Uruguay, Brazil and Chile. 

I suppose Sweden and Portugal view England as main rivals, but they're not a consistently upper echelon side. And it's not #1 rivals. That'd be Denmark and Spain respectively. 

Just feels odd from an outsider perspective that England has main rivals that don't consider them as important rivals as well. Other than Scotland of course, but you'll hardly see that fixture in a World Cup or Euro, which is what made the recent fixture hype worthy. Shame that we don't have that qualifiers with the pair, would have been nice. 

[Hazzaj]

9 minutes ago, Yuko said:

Not sure where to put this, as I see talks of some rivalry fixture. 

 

Who does England National Team consider to be their rivals? 

 

as an England fan:

Scotland, regardless of how good or bad their team is and where both of us are competitively, will always be the big one for me - or at least this rivalry has a unique edge to it that no other teams have, others might have more of a recent competitive history, but no others go quite as deep on both sides.

Also Croatia I think is worth bringing up as a recent competitive rival, matches with them have tended to be important punctuation marks in both our countries' footballing history, both teams have had the upper hands on different days and rarely have the games been without some sort of incident or intrigue.

[skybluedave]

Scotland I want to beat (or desperatly don't want to lose) but I genuinely want them to do well too. I celebrated their qualification for this Euros. Was delighted for them.

Germany I actively enjoy seeing them lose though. As petty as that is. WC18 was beautiful. I'm not sure why though. Politically I like Germany. I'm a remain voter. I wish my country was heavily alligned with them politically. I'm not hung up about World Wars. I hate any reference to them being mentioned in Football. So I'm not so sure why I want them to lose/us beat them bad.

I think it's a combination of 'they always beat us' and envy/jealousy. They are what I want my country to be footballing wise. I think we are quite similar really. The style of footballers we produce. Both big footballing nations with strong leagues. They just seem to do it better at international level for whatever reason. And I want us to be like that.

[RTHerringbone]

That's one of the least discreet bits of trolling I've seen on the forums 

"You're awful at football. You do realise that these more successful nations don't recognise you as a rival. At all. Don't you?"

Yes, we know we're awful. Look at our track record. But it's fine to still have a rivalry, even if it is only a one way street.

[Haguey]

49 minutes ago, Hazzaj said:

As for Wilder being merely a 'pashun merchant' as if he'd not transformed a group of League 1 and Championship plodders into a tactically innovative and highly organised outfit that upset a lot of good Premier League teams on what was by far the smallest budget in the division... 

He'll always be loved by our fans but this also ignores the shambles of our second Premier League season... which failed for a variety of reasons, principal among which were awful recruitment led by the manager (bad judge of players?) and tactical inflexibility.

[arenaross]

1 hour ago, Rob1981 said:

I know people love to throw this around as a criticism.  "Part of the FA establishment!" etc.  But this isn't a Howard Wilkinson or a Peter Taylor keeping things ticking over until there is a better option.  He's completely changed the culture around the national side while he's been in charge.  The new setup at St George's Park, the strategy for youth development, the sports science stuff, the personnel working on the coaching staff at all the other age groups, the grassroots programmes, how England coaches and medics work with their counterparts at the big clubs, the media strategy etc.  He has had a huge input here across the board, made it a full time role and thrown himself into all the detail behind the scenes that previous managers have either not been allowed to do or simply haven't seen it as being part of their job. 

We've finally done what the French did in the early 1990s before they won the World Cup, opened a national training centre that brings all the age groups together to share methodology and given the national job to a manager and coaches that have worked with the players for years at youth level.  The likes of Kane, Sterling, Pickford, Stones etc. have been with Southgate for 6-7 years now since they were first in and around the U21s. 

They talk about a "club culture" with the national side, this doesn't just happen overnight.  It has taken years of work to get to this point, and now we are set up for success over the next 5-10 years in a way that we never have been before.  We've got the youngest squad at the Euros ffs, a group of players that have grown up together and can play the next 4-5 tournaments. No hierarchy, no obvious first eleven, no miserable backup players committing to six weeks away from their kids knowing full well they won't be picked unless there is an injury.  Just a group of lads who know they will all get a chance to be involved on the pitch at some stage, players who love going away with England and being part of the camp and the atmosphere that Southgate has created.  Not different sets of clubmates and individuals that turn up and sit at different tables and can’t wait to get home again.

Yeah, it would be nice to play more attacking football.  But people who want to judge him on performances will be moaning if we take the game to Germany and get pumped 4-1 on the counterattack.  Calling for his head and looking at dour teams like Portugal 2016 and Greece 2004 and Spain 2010 and Argentina 2014 and moaning that they get to finals and we don't.  And if you judge him on results, there isn't a lot to complain about.  We've reached two successive semi finals for the first time in 20-odd years.  Then qualified for the Euros with the best record out of everybody.  Then made a 100% start to the next WC qualifying campaign.  Then gone through the Euros group stage without conceding.  Now we are going into a knockout game against Germany as favourites, probably for the first time in 50 years.  And yet the conversation in here is who should replace him

If we win, it will be our best result in a generation. If we don’t we have been a bit unlucky with the draw and we will have run one of the heavyweights close and kept the game tight. If you take that along with all the context above then it is crazy to talk about replacing him for 2022, especially when the covid fixture changes mean that we are already three games into qualifying.

I know I'm Southgate's biggest fan on here but I honestly don't know what people want from him. 

Absolutely beggars belief that someone wants Chris Wilder phoned on Wednesday morning if we lose.

I agree with a lot of this but tbh this is all just a fantastic argument to have Southgate involved in the national team setup just not as first team coach as the football he puts out is dross. 

[Yuko]

1 minute ago, RTHerringbone said:

That's one of the least discreet bits of trolling I've seen on the forums 

"You're awful at football. You do realise that these more successful nations don't recognise you as a rival. At all. Don't you?"

Yes, we know we're awful. Look at our track record. But it's fine to still have a rivalry, even if it is only a one way street.

Lol, it's a genuine question because all I have going here is what the media talks about. Didn't really pay enough attention to ask people on this back then. 

When I was in the UK I could feel people loving the England national team but didn't catch any rivalry feelings. Maybe it was bad timing, but the 2012 and 2014 tournaments were the only ones and the games vs Italy didn't leave me much from a rivalry perspective. Honestly, neither did the France game in 2012 as both sides were rather underwhelming at the time, but I remember the broadcast trying to make a huge fuss out of it. 

Wasn't there for the 2010 Germany game, but did have a lot of (drunken) English people around watching that one. 

 

I just didn't get to understand if people juat like the NT so much or have some genuinely high interest games that they cheer harder for. 

For example, you play vs Germany now in a knockout game, sure. Big stage. But if this was the 3rd group game after both sides won the first two games, would you still be hyped because it's Germany?

[Pukey]

Teams have rivals who don't reciprocate the rivalry to the same extent all the time. It's not uncommon. 

[Haguey]

Rotherham fans hate Wednesday, but for some reason don't mind us. Weird.

[skybluedave]

Any England Germany game is going to be elevated from an England POV. I still had fond memories of beating them in Berlin in a friendly few years back. One where were were 2-0 down. 

[Hazzaj]

18 minutes ago, Haguey said:

He'll always be loved by our fans but this also ignores the shambles of our second Premier League season... which failed for a variety of reasons, principal among which were awful recruitment led by the manager (bad judge of players?) and tactical inflexibility.

Hmmm, even after the signings made I believe your wage bill was still comfortably the lowest in the league right? Just saying that with the resources put into the club, having such a bad season was always within the realms of possibility, especially when Henderson had left and O'Connell spend most of the season out, Berge missed a fair chunk of the season too if I remember right. Ampadu at CB was quite a bit of a disaster though...

Still don't think that that should tar his record as a manager too much, the PL's such an unforgiving mistress and with the level and depth of the players the club had on its books, they were somewhat fortunate to be up there in the first place.

[Yuko]

56 minutes ago, Pukey said:

Teams have rivals who don't reciprocate the rivalry to the same extent all the time. It's not uncommon. 

It's not uncommon in club football due to its structure and plethora of teams, but in international football it tends to be mutual. Cannot think of other countries, even less important games, where this doesn't seem to be the case. Maybe something like Belgium vs France or Poland vs Germany could qualify, but it's more history related than football related. Maybe this is also the core context for the England vs Germany one which is why it feels one sided?

 

I'm honestly a bit surprised that people here do consider Scotland to be a main rival for England. I was expecting it to be more one-sided from the Scottish perspective. Was also expecting people to say France.

Edited June 26, 2021 by Yuko

[ajw10]

We have big history with Germany in international football. 66 win. Knocked out in 70. Italia 90 and Euro 96. The absolute pasting in 2010.

It's a long history and with only one win (I'm not counting Euro 2000). France on the other hand, I'm not sure we've played them in a competitive game since the 80s

Edited June 26, 2021 by ajw10