Why are Tottenham finances always wrong?

[andyt365]

It feels like Ive been moaning for years and years about the same things.

Tottenham finances are always undercooked and FM21 is really bad for it.

The average ticket price on the game is £50. Youd be very lucky to find any on a matchday at this price. Its more like 65 to 70 nowdays. The pricing can easily be found on the clubs website in the ticket section.

Then there is the sponsorship. In the game its 92m a year. In real life its 165m. Thats almost 75m a year in missing cash. Close to 100m if you included the tickets.

Again, Im not going to post this, its readily available to anyone in the clubs published accounts.

Is it possible to have this accurate please?

 

 

 

[HUNT3R]

As we've explained to you before - the best place to post this is in the research section. Post what you think is wrong and post the link etc to back up what you're claiming. 

[Spurs08]

8 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

As we've explained to you before - the best place to post this is in the research section. Post what you think is wrong and post the link etc to back up what you're claiming. 

I posted the point about ticket prices literally years ago, with evidence and calculations for exactly what I thought it would should be. I got no reply, and nothing was changed - I'd totally wasted me time. Now I'm not blaming individual researchers, they're very busy people. But SI make a huge amount of these games. It's frankly not acceptable for factual information about clubs from the most-played league in the game to be wrong, and it's even more ridiculous to suggest that if people want it fixed they need to do the work themselves, post again and hope for the best rather than the multi-million pound studio just... reading and fixing it.

[santy001]

You might find that as human beings researchers may miss individual posts and aren't scanning the forums 24/7 looking for comments on their work. You might also find that as human beings we aren't necessarily the best among the species to read companies accounts, we aren't the best to aggregate an average ticket price. If you're better at that than a particular researcher of any club sharing this insight would be a great benefit to the game overall. Some people have better places to find out news, some people have a better understanding of one aspect of something that impacts a club over another. 

It's almost like... we're not perfect. 

The fact that its too much effort for you to put much of your own voluntary time for an odd post in the right place is probably partly the reason why someone else does the research because there's an awful lot to do and maintain each year when it comes to research. I've not long since finished looking into Nick Powell's injury history for the 2020/2021 season. Took up about 90 minutes of my time for just Nick Powell to check general news of his injuries, read the match reports to get the dates when he was injured and figure out when he returned to the team from this injury. 

Generally speaking if you can't be bothered to make it easier and accessible for researchers to see just what it is you think and why, well it's probably going to fall by the wayside.

Additionally, there are certain times of year when its announced usually by one of the head researchers that the data-lock for a particular version is upcoming. During this time there is a much more co-ordinated presence across the data forums to try and capture as much information from those who wish to contribute as we can. But researchers don't need to be glued to the forums.

[enigmatic]

20 hours ago, santy001 said:

there's an awful lot to do and maintain each year when it comes to research. I've not long since finished looking into Nick Powell's injury history

That sounds like a full time job in itself 

[YouReds]

Who cares, it's Tottenham 

[gunner86]

On 01/09/2021 at 17:39, andyt365 said:

 

The average ticket price on the game is £50. Youd be very lucky to find any on a matchday at this price. Its more like 65 to 70 nowdays. The pricing can easily be found on the clubs website in the ticket section.

You’re right, that is easy to find

https://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/media/40151/category-a.pdf

Cheapest adult ticket is £52, but you can get concession tickets for quite a bit less. And that’s category A matches. The most expensive matches.

If I wanted to go an watch Spurs play Brentford (I really don’t) which is category C, I could get an adult ticket for £30!

https://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/media/40152/category-c.pdf

I haven’t looked at Sponsorship, mostly cos I’ve spent enough time on Tottenham’s website today, and it’s not even 7 am.

Edited September 3, 2021 by gunner86

[crpcarrot]

i tihnk the simple answer would be this is not called Tottenham Manager so the system would not be 100% accurate for any given club

[Grifty]

On 01/09/2021 at 17:39, andyt365 said:

It feels like Ive been moaning for years and years about the same things.

Tottenham finances are always undercooked and FM21 is really bad for it.

The average ticket price on the game is £50. Youd be very lucky to find any on a matchday at this price. Its more like 65 to 70 nowdays. The pricing can easily be found on the clubs website in the ticket section.

Then there is the sponsorship. In the game its 92m a year. In real life its 165m. Thats almost 75m a year in missing cash. Close to 100m if you included the tickets.

Again, Im not going to post this, its readily available to anyone in the clubs published accounts.

Is it possible to have this accurate please?

I've had a look at the average price on the Spurs website for the 3 categories and the average price for all areas;

Cat A: Average price = £65

Cat B: Average price = £61

Cat C: Average price = £49

Total ticket average price £58.

But as far as I'm aware, this would not include season ticket sales (the majority of the attendance).

Season ticket average price = £1,296

On my game (2060 - so not sure what it is at the start) it's listed as £1,250.

So individual tickets are £8 off and season tickets are £46 off.

I'd say that is pretty accurate.

[gunner86]

27 minutes ago, Grifty said:

I've had a look at the average price on the Spurs website for the 3 categories and the average price for all areas;

Cat A: Average price = £65

Cat B: Average price = £61

Cat C: Average price = £49

Total ticket average price £58.

But as far as I'm aware, this would not include season ticket sales (the majority of the attendance).

Season ticket average price = £1,296

On my game (2060 - so not sure what it is at the start) it's listed as £1,250.

So individual tickets are £8 off and season tickets are £46 off.

I'd say that is pretty accurate.

That’s only taking adult tickets into account as well. If you factor in discounts for seniors and juniors the average cost comes down even further.

I agree it seems they’ve got this about right imo

[Spurs08]

5 hours ago, gunner86 said:

That’s only taking adult tickets into account as well. If you factor in discounts for seniors and juniors the average cost comes down even further.

I agree it seems they’ve got this about right imo

I was told concessions tickets are factored in by the game engine, and the average price in the data should be the average adult price. I calculated it in some depth about 3 or 4 years ago and think it came to around £63 once you factor in the capacity in each area (those £30 tickets are in a tiny corner of one tier and can only be bought alongside Junior tickets, whereas the more expensive ones are much more numerous). But I think the thread is deleted or made invisible after the year that game was out, so that you can't point out how many years in a row something's been reported.

[andyt365]

On 03/09/2021 at 11:31, Grifty said:

I've had a look at the average price on the Spurs website for the 3 categories and the average price for all areas;

Cat A: Average price = £65

Cat B: Average price = £61

Cat C: Average price = £49

Total ticket average price £58.

But as far as I'm aware, this would not include season ticket sales (the majority of the attendance).

Season ticket average price = £1,296

On my game (2060 - so not sure what it is at the start) it's listed as £1,250.

So individual tickets are £8 off and season tickets are £46 off.

I'd say that is pretty accurate.

Those arnt proper averages. You need to do a weighted average.

They may advertise some tickets for cheap, but those are few and far between. 

I can guarantee that the average price is higher than what you say for season tickets.

The club has low priced tickets available for a headline. Its impossible to actually buy one.

Edited November 1, 2021 by andyt365

[andyt365]

Anyway, the finances look a bit improved this year. But id say the loan debt is too high. That should easily be available to see in the published accounts.

I doubt its more than £35m.

 

The sponsorship is still 30m short of where it should be. But its still an improvement on last years abysmal £90m sponsorship. The real number is £165m

Edited November 1, 2021 by andyt365

[ATW]

4 hours ago, andyt365 said:

Anyway, the finances look a bit improved this year. But id say the loan debt is too high. That should easily be available to see in the published accounts.

I doubt its more than £35m.

 

The sponsorship is still 30m short of where it should be. But its still an improvement on last years abysmal £90m sponsorship. The real number is £165m

Spurs' bank liabilities is more than £600m (cash at bank less loans, including long term charges like mortgages) - the fact the game is only given what you have is being rather generous to you.

Also you sure about your sponsorship numbers as you Accounts to December 2020 state total revenue from Sponsorship and Hospitality events was £146.5m...  almost £20m less than you state for Sponsorship only.  

 

Edited November 1, 2021 by ATW

[STaphouse]

8 hours ago, andyt365 said:

Anyway, the finances look a bit improved this year. But id say the loan debt is too high. That should easily be available to see in the published accounts.

I doubt its more than £35m.

 

The sponsorship is still 30m short of where it should be. But its still an improvement on last years abysmal £90m sponsorship. The real number is £165m

Proof?

[Pete Sottrel]

 

10 hours ago, andyt365 said:

Anyway, the finances look a bit improved this year. But id say the loan debt is too high. That should easily be available to see in the published accounts.

I doubt its more than £35m.

 

The sponsorship is still 30m short of where it should be. But its still an improvement on last years abysmal £90m sponsorship. The real number is £165m

Thanks @andyt365, and apologies that you haven't found the finances accurate enough.

We have put in an average ticket price of £65 in the database, with season tickets averaging a£1,250 (thanks @Grifty @Spurs08 and @gunner86 for your input on these).  The average prices are not easy to do, as they need to be the average price paid by a non-concessions-paying adult.

We have also put in a Total Commercial Revenue amount of £160m.  This means that a researcher does not need to detail all the smaller revenue streams (of which there can be dozens at a big club), and the game will make up the difference between the sponsorship deals detailed and the Total Commercial Revenue figure  The ones that we have detailed in the database are:

kit manufacturer: £450m over 15 years = £30m pa

main shirt sponsor: £320m over 8 years = £40m pa

sleeve sponsor: £10m pa

The debt/loan amounts are as up to date as we can be, but the information on repayment schedules/interest etc. are not always available.  We have detailed:

£633m (stadium loan repayments) over 23 years as from July 2020

£250m (BoA loan refinanced) over 14 years as from May 2021

£23m (Investec training ground loan) over 5 years as from July 2020

If any of this detail is incorrect, or there are other significant sponsorship deals that we have missed, please let us know.

[andyt365]

12 hours ago, Pete Sottrel said:

 

Thanks @andyt365, and apologies that you haven't found the finances accurate enough.

We have put in an average ticket price of £65 in the database, with season tickets averaging a£1,250 (thanks @Grifty @Spurs08 and @gunner86 for your input on these).  The average prices are not easy to do, as they need to be the average price paid by a non-concessions-paying adult.

We have also put in a Total Commercial Revenue amount of £160m.  This means that a researcher does not need to detail all the smaller revenue streams (of which there can be dozens at a big club), and the game will make up the difference between the sponsorship deals detailed and the Total Commercial Revenue figure  The ones that we have detailed in the database are:

kit manufacturer: £450m over 15 years = £30m pa

main shirt sponsor: £320m over 8 years = £40m pa

sleeve sponsor: £10m pa

The debt/loan amounts are as up to date as we can be, but the information on repayment schedules/interest etc. are not always available.  We have detailed:

£633m (stadium loan repayments) over 23 years as from July 2020

£250m (BoA loan refinanced) over 14 years as from May 2021

£23m (Investec training ground loan) over 5 years as from July 2020

If any of this detail is incorrect, or there are other significant sponsorship deals that we have missed, please let us know.

Thanks for the response. First of all the game plays much more accurately form a Spurs POV in terms of finances. I understand we have no history and are a bit of a joke. But we are a money making machine, as you can see by Conte joining.

£160m for sponsors is bang on. Thanks.  The two new major sponsors are Getir for training kits and Cinch for kit sleeves. Id say they are about £15m all in. Maybe £20m tops.

I agree the average price is very difficult. We have so many pricing bands and lots of different allocations for each band. £65 feels about right from someone that sits where ever a tick is available. An adult ticket can cost £40 to over £100+. Same with the corporate hospitality. We have 8,000 all ranging from £4 or £5k to £30k each.

Fair enough with the debt. 

All in all I'm very happy this year finances. Thanks for listening.

Edited November 2, 2021 by andyt365

[Caketiger]

On 03/09/2021 at 21:56, crpcarrot said:

i tihnk the simple answer would be this is not called Tottenham Manager so the system would not be 100% accurate for any given club

Such a game would be great to play for a few weeks before getting tricky after three months. Just before Christmas, the game prevents you from signing any new players. Eventually, it sets fire to your laptop before eventually burning your house down. 

[GuitarMan]

On 03/11/2021 at 02:07, Caketiger said:

Such a game would be great to play for a few weeks before getting tricky after three months. Just before Christmas, the game prevents you from signing any new players. Eventually, it sets fire to your laptop before eventually burning your house down. 

As a spurs fan - sadly I have to say you have hit the nail on the head for how that would play out based on recent form  - you've made me smile today. 

[Spurs08]

On 01/11/2021 at 13:06, Pete Sottrel said:

 

Thanks @andyt365, and apologies that you haven't found the finances accurate enough.

We have put in an average ticket price of £65 in the database, with season tickets averaging a£1,250 (thanks @Grifty @Spurs08 and @gunner86 for your input on these).  The average prices are not easy to do, as they need to be the average price paid by a non-concessions-paying adult.

We have also put in a Total Commercial Revenue amount of £160m.  This means that a researcher does not need to detail all the smaller revenue streams (of which there can be dozens at a big club), and the game will make up the difference between the sponsorship deals detailed and the Total Commercial Revenue figure  The ones that we have detailed in the database are:

kit manufacturer: £450m over 15 years = £30m pa

main shirt sponsor: £320m over 8 years = £40m pa

sleeve sponsor: £10m pa

The debt/loan amounts are as up to date as we can be, but the information on repayment schedules/interest etc. are not always available.  We have detailed:

£633m (stadium loan repayments) over 23 years as from July 2020

£250m (BoA loan refinanced) over 14 years as from May 2021

£23m (Investec training ground loan) over 5 years as from July 2020

If any of this detail is incorrect, or there are other significant sponsorship deals that we have missed, please let us know.

Interesting, thank you again! In-game the average ticket price is showing as £50, but I can see it's correct in the data - I wonder whether it's a UI bug or whether the game simply refuses to let it be that high? In any case, £50 might actually be more accurate. As I understand it, the game actually applies the average price to cup games unless that's changed recently (which is dumb, but that's another matter!), and not only are they way lower for everything except the Champions League, they probably average about 50,000 tickets sold compared to only 8,000 or so for a league game. That would seem more like a game engine issue though, and if it were corrected only for Tottenham would cause a disreptency with other clubs.

The only other question I'd raise is whether the corporate/premium tickets are included in these averages. I'd assume yes since the number of ST holders is listed at 50k. There are an unusually high number of them, 8,000 to be precise, all pay more than the prices publicly listed for general sale tickets and some of them are truly extortionate. By that I mean all of them cost at least £150 even for Category C games, and some of them are £18k for a season ticket!