Trusting the Process - Collectivism, Rotations & Control

[milestobudapest]

Looking forward to if you proceed with the 4-3-3. I had a fair bit of success with a front 5 combination of IW(S)-CF(S)-IW(S) with a Mez(A) and CM(A) in the centre. This meant all 5 players had an individual mentality of Very Attacking. I found it meant the two central midfielders made more runs between the fullback and central defender. However, I know this goes against your overall support structure 

[skyline72]

2 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Inverted fullbacks seem extremely difficult to find. In most cases I end up retraining a midfielder.

I also usually does that as well.

Well, it will fit in as a "Total Football" player, isnt it?

[Dotsworthy]

5 hours ago, milestobudapest said:

Looking forward to if you proceed with the 4-3-3. I had a fair bit of success with a front 5 combination of IW(S)-CF(S)-IW(S) with a Mez(A) and CM(A) in the centre. This meant all 5 players had an individual mentality of Very Attacking. I found it meant the two central midfielders made more runs between the fullback and central defender. However, I know this goes against your overall support structure 

This sounds awesome. What team instructions did you use?

[MShing]

Being an arsenal fan I'm loving this thread. I have also an Arsenal save going on at the moment. I am in my 3rd season doing well. 

 

I have just started using this tactic and I am loving the style of play it really is suited to the arsenal players. Congrats Ozil more great work. 

Coincidentally to your signings I had already signed Felix and De Ligt at the start of the season. I also have Haaland from last season, I have tried this tactic with Haaland in the f9 position but it just doesnt work. I have had to shift him to RW instead of Saka for the moment, hes scored 3 in his last 2 so I might end up retraining him to IW.

The tactic works so much better with Odegaard as f9. Felix on LW is also awesome.

What do you think about retraining De Ligt to Cm as DLP? Tempted to try him and Rice as the cm partnership. Or would that be a waste not having him as CB?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

21 hours ago, milestobudapest said:

Looking forward to if you proceed with the 4-3-3. I had a fair bit of success with a front 5 combination of IW(S)-CF(S)-IW(S) with a Mez(A) and CM(A) in the centre. This meant all 5 players had an individual mentality of Very Attacking. I found it meant the two central midfielders made more runs between the fullback and central defender. However, I know this goes against your overall support structure 

Ah, interesting. Yes, the 'free 8' midfield roles are one of the more difficult to get right. How did that set up work for you?

If you wouldn't mind - and are still in the same season - I'd be interested to see the how that looks in a couple of pass maps and how they play out over the course of the season with the passing statistics (passes per 90, pass accuracy, creativity stats etc).

I will say my structure is not necessarily an 'overall support structure', although I could see why someone might think that. For me, it's all about balancing Team Mentality and Individual Duties. It just so happens to be that I enjoy attacking football, so most of my systems are attacking team mentalities balanced out by support duties. If I was to play a defensive system, I'd use far more attack duties to balance it.

One day I'll have to do a thread on counter-attacking to set the record straight 

 

18 hours ago, skyline72 said:

I also usually does that as well.

Well, it will fit in as a "Total Football" player, isnt it?

Yes, very true!  

 

12 hours ago, MShing said:

Being an arsenal fan I'm loving this thread. I have also an Arsenal save going on at the moment. I am in my 3rd season doing well. 

 

I have just started using this tactic and I am loving the style of play it really is suited to the arsenal players. Congrats Ozil more great work. 

Coincidentally to your signings I had already signed Felix and De Ligt at the start of the season. I also have Haaland from last season, I have tried this tactic with Haaland in the f9 position but it just doesnt work. I have had to shift him to RW instead of Saka for the moment, hes scored 3 in his last 2 so I might end up retraining him to IW.

The tactic works so much better with Odegaard as f9. Felix on LW is also awesome.

What do you think about retraining De Ligt to Cm as DLP? Tempted to try him and Rice as the cm partnership. Or would that be a waste not having him as CB?

Ah, interesting. Yes, I can see a striker like Haaland changes to the make-up of the attack considerably. Personally I'd play him as a conventional striker; maybe Complete Forward (Support). I use Balogun like this when he's coming through.

Interesting to see what the club to in real life as they seem to be linked with striker after striker but a lot depends on the midfield balance.

As for De Ligt - he's a very good option for playing in midfield; although personally not technical or creative enough for the playmaker role. I'd personally suggest a half back or simply a standard defensive midfielder.

[Sarriball14]

Really excited about this thread and it’s something I’d like to try with Barca! Would you mind sharing the tactic so I can download?

[MessiMessiMessi]

Read this thread with great excitement and joy, tried it out instantly with an Arsenal save, and this is the result. I extracted the PIs and not existent OIs as given by the OP. Anyone can help me what I can do to get better results?

Edited March 20, 2022 by MessiMessiMessi

[khodder]

1 hour ago, MessiMessiMessi said:

Read this thread with great excitement and joy, tried it out instantly with an Arsenal save, and this is the result. I extracted the PIs and not existent OIs as given by the OP. Anyone can help me what I can do to get better results?

It may be something to do with the familiarity of the tactic, morale and club atmosphere also plays a massive part in FM.

It's not all about tactics anymore. 

Vs Newcastle it just looks like you needed your finishers to be a bit more clinical

Vs Leeds it looks like they got the best from their finishers.

Overall in both it looks like the tactic has performed as intended - dominate possession, dominate the game, but the chance haven't fallen for your team as much as you would have liked and your finishing has been a bit wayward.

[MessiMessiMessi]

vor 23 Minuten schrieb khodder:

It may be something to do with the familiarity of the tactic, morale and club atmosphere also plays a massive part in FM.

It's not all about tactics anymore. 

Vs Newcastle it just looks like you needed your finishers to be a bit more clinical

Vs Leeds it looks like they got the best from their finishers.

Overall in both it looks like the tactic has performed as intended - dominate possession, dominate the game, but the chance haven't fallen for your team as much as you would have liked and your finishing has been a bit wayward.

I can understand this and thank you for your ideas, but there is a very big difference between going invincible with Arsenal with 125 GD and what I've experienced here losing 6:0 to Leeds. There must be something I am doing wrong, that I didn't find out reading the OP and the comments. Had a full pre-season only learning this tactic. I played the Leeds game about 10 times trying to understand it better and lost it every time, 4:1, 3:0, 3:1 all included and always losing on xG by a good margin.

I did another test with ManCity since they have better technical players. At Anfield had 1125 passes or something in that range - amazing I'd say, never seen this before against an opponent with similar strength of players. But... lost 5-0 with 4.1 vs. 0.11 xG. What are the changes the OP makes in these games? Because the base tactic is not getting anywhere close to the results he obviously got.

Edited March 20, 2022 by MessiMessiMessi

[jdubsnz]

14 hours ago, MessiMessiMessi said:

I can understand this and thank you for your ideas, but there is a very big difference between going invincible with Arsenal with 125 GD and what I've experienced here losing 6:0 to Leeds. There must be something I am doing wrong, that I didn't find out reading the OP and the comments. Had a full pre-season only learning this tactic. I played the Leeds game about 10 times trying to understand it better and lost it every time, 4:1, 3:0, 3:1 all included and always losing on xG by a good margin.

I did another test with ManCity since they have better technical players. At Anfield had 1125 passes or something in that range - amazing I'd say, never seen this before against an opponent with similar strength of players. But... lost 5-0 with 4.1 vs. 0.11 xG. What are the changes the OP makes in these games? Because the base tactic is not getting anywhere close to the results he obviously got.

Not sure if this is helpful but the first couple of games I played with this tactic we were rubbish. 2nd half of the 3rd game it looked like things were starting to click a bit more and there were some lovely phases of play. But it has mostly been lots of possession, not much goals. That 2nd half has made me want to trust the process though! Hopefully will see things come together more. Also, I wasn’t playing Odegaard as a F9, was playing him in the AP slot and he wasn’t playing well. 

[jdubsnz]

On 20/03/2022 at 10:36, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Ah, interesting. Yes, the 'free 8' midfield roles are one of the more difficult to get right. How did that set up work for you?

If you wouldn't mind - and are still in the same season - I'd be interested to see the how that looks in a couple of pass maps and how they play out over the course of the season with the passing statistics (passes per 90, pass accuracy, creativity stats etc).

I will say my structure is not necessarily an 'overall support structure', although I could see why someone might think that. For me, it's all about balancing Team Mentality and Individual Duties. It just so happens to be that I enjoy attacking football, so most of my systems are attacking team mentalities balanced out by support duties. If I was to play a defensive system, I'd use far more attack duties to balance it.

One day I'll have to do a thread on counter-attacking to set the record straight 

 

Yes, very true!  

 

Ah, interesting. Yes, I can see a striker like Haaland changes to the make-up of the attack considerably. Personally I'd play him as a conventional striker; maybe Complete Forward (Support). I use Balogun like this when he's coming through.

Interesting to see what the club to in real life as they seem to be linked with striker after striker but a lot depends on the midfield balance.

As for De Ligt - he's a very good option for playing in midfield; although personally not technical or creative enough for the playmaker role. I'd personally suggest a half back or simply a standard defensive midfielder.

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal!question on the F9 role. If you are not playing Odegaard there, are you saying for a more conventional type striker (for me I have Gonçalo Ramos and Karim Adeyemi) they should play as a CF(s) in this formation? Adeyemi of course can play out wide too

[korreZinho]

I realised that when i used defensive CM that i have to little players on the box when the leftback overlaps. I usually have 2 people on the box only. Im trying to tweak it a bit. Without success so far. 

[Sarriball14]

20 hours ago, MessiMessiMessi said:

I can understand this and thank you for your ideas, but there is a very big difference between going invincible with Arsenal with 125 GD and what I've experienced here losing 6:0 to Leeds. There must be something I am doing wrong, that I didn't find out reading the OP and the comments. Had a full pre-season only learning this tactic. I played the Leeds game about 10 times trying to understand it better and lost it every time, 4:1, 3:0, 3:1 all included and always losing on xG by a good margin.

I did another test with ManCity since they have better technical players. At Anfield had 1125 passes or something in that range - amazing I'd say, never seen this before against an opponent with similar strength of players. But... lost 5-0 with 4.1 vs. 0.11 xG. What are the changes the OP makes in these games? Because the base tactic is not getting anywhere close to the results he obviously got.

I also decided to fire it up with Arsenal in the end. Sold Auba, lacazette etc… and I’m also really struggling for results. Create very little as well. Now I’m not expecting identical results and numbers to OP but I’d expect the tactic to perform similarly or come close to emulating OPs. It’s quite the opposite, getting pumped at home to teams I should be beating and struggling to create anything away from home. Can’t help but think I’m missing something, tactic is the same and the players are the same, and I’ve used the same PIs that have been listed :/ 

[skyline72]

3 hours ago, Sarriball14 said:

I also decided to fire it up with Arsenal in the end. Sold Auba, lacazette etc… and I’m also really struggling for results. Create very little as well. Now I’m not expecting identical results and numbers to OP but I’d expect the tactic to perform similarly or come close to emulating OPs. It’s quite the opposite, getting pumped at home to teams I should be beating and struggling to create anything away from home. Can’t help but think I’m missing something, tactic is the same and the players are the same, and I’ve used the same PIs that have been listed :/ 

 I believe @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!set the system up before the winter patch.

Edited March 21, 2022 by skyline72

[FelixCAN]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Sarriball14:

I also decided to fire it up with Arsenal in the end. Sold Auba, lacazette etc… and I’m also really struggling for results. Create very little as well. Now I’m not expecting identical results and numbers to OP but I’d expect the tactic to perform similarly or come close to emulating OPs. It’s quite the opposite, getting pumped at home to teams I should be beating and struggling to create anything away from home. Can’t help but think I’m missing something, tactic is the same and the players are the same, and I’ve used the same PIs that have been listed :/ 

I have to agree with you here, when I saw the results with Arsenal with this kind of tactic I was mindblown and immediately wanted to try it out. I played over 10 seasons with Guardiola-style tactics a few months ago but the main reason why I didn't continue my thread on it was, that when a team would press you early and play attacking, you'd always struggle to pass it out. Even when I was hired by Man United who won the PL 6 times in a row and had the best team in the game Away against the Big 6 clubs you'd get slaughtered trying it and it wasn't fun losing games I knew how to win basically.

The results here with my test with Arsenal absolutely fit the experience you and others had, I'm having a big deja-vu here getting hit on the break for fun and passing the ball to death without creating much chances. I hope the author of the thread gives us an idea what he does to get these results since with multiple people trying it and getting nowhere close, the posted tactic and the PIs alone don't seem to be it.

[steakfaced]

2 hours ago, skyline72 said:

 I believe @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!set the system up before the winter patch.

This isn't intended to be some plug and play tactic anyways, which is usually where people in his threads go wrong..

[MessiMessiMessi]

vor 16 Minuten schrieb steakfaced:

This isn't intended to be some plug and play tactic anyways, which is usually where people in his threads go wrong..

I can understand this if you load up a game with a League 2 team and then try the exact same with bad players. But if you use the same Arsenal team at the start with the same players with the exact same attributes you should see something that is at least somewhat resembling the results and football shown here imo. Maybe you can explain what else you think there is in the game to do? If there are changes that need to be made they are not mentioned here and that is all me and others asking for being helped with.

[khodder]

On 20/03/2022 at 21:36, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Ah, interesting. Yes, the 'free 8' midfield roles are one of the more difficult to get right. How did that set up work for you?

If you wouldn't mind - and are still in the same season - I'd be interested to see the how that looks in a couple of pass maps and how they play out over the course of the season with the passing statistics (passes per 90, pass accuracy, creativity stats etc).

I will say my structure is not necessarily an 'overall support structure', although I could see why someone might think that. For me, it's all about balancing Team Mentality and Individual Duties. It just so happens to be that I enjoy attacking football, so most of my systems are attacking team mentalities balanced out by support duties. If I was to play a defensive system, I'd use far more attack duties to balance it.

One day I'll have to do a thread on counter-attacking to set the record straight 

 

My 433 works with the CM(A)/MEZ(S) working as my free 8's - I can drop some of my season stats when I get back on the right laptop.

[Sarriball14]

6 hours ago, steakfaced said:

This isn't intended to be some plug and play tactic anyways, which is usually where people in his threads go wrong..

I fully understand that most tactics aren’t meant to be plug and play, but as @MessiMessiMessi has already said, it should be somewhat plug and play if using the same tactic with the same team. I’m not saying I’m expecting the same goal difference and an unbeaten season but I was definitely expecting something close. I’ll be the first to hold my hand up and admit creating tactics isn’t my strongest point So yes I do like to copy a tactic from time to time and the mould it as seasons go by. I’ve always been inspired by @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! and other well known users on this site as they really go into detail about their tactical creations. This tactic had me excited but like a few others we are getting quite the opposite in terms of results and performances.

[Lordluap]

To everyone complaining they don't get the same results:  What team training do you use? What individual training do you use? What team talks? What coaching staff? Do you watch the games in full/comprehensive and make adjustments? What managerial reputation/qualifications did you set up at the start? Did you try this from the start of the first season? Or from the second or third?  What other tactics do you have in the creator screen as 2nd and 3rd?  There are so many variables in this game - I don't understand how people can't see that just because you're the same team with the same tactic you won't bring the same results.

[korreZinho]

54 minutes ago, Lordluap said:

To everyone complaining they don't get the same results:  What team training do you use? What individual training do you use? What team talks? What coaching staff? Do you watch the games in full/comprehensive and make adjustments? What managerial reputation/qualifications did you set up at the start? Did you try this from the start of the first season? Or from the second or third?  What other tactics do you have in the creator screen as 2nd and 3rd?  There are so many variables in this game - I don't understand how people can't see that just because you're the same team with the same tactic you won't bring the same results.

Most of them were using Arsenal and didnt have same results. So basically that a plug-in tactic cuz they ahve the same resources as Özil had. Me myself i had good results with the tactic with Brighton. 

[Sarriball14]

1 hour ago, Lordluap said:

To everyone complaining they don't get the same results:  What team training do you use? What individual training do you use? What team talks? What coaching staff? Do you watch the games in full/comprehensive and make adjustments? What managerial reputation/qualifications did you set up at the start? Did you try this from the start of the first season? Or from the second or third?  What other tactics do you have in the creator screen as 2nd and 3rd?  There are so many variables in this game - I don't understand how people can't see that just because you're the same team with the same tactic you won't bring the same results.

As already stated, it’s not about getting the same results but considering some of us are using same team, start of a career, probably all got our managers set to the highest qualifications possible, Only one tactic in use, probably have similar training set ups I’d expect to see something similar(not identical) My pre season was heavily focused on tactical familiarity and team cohesion. 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

It appears I have inadvertently posted a plug-and-play tactic 

Apologies to those attempting to plug-and-play, and not getting results. For what it's worth, that was never the intended purpose of the thread. In fact, quite the opposite; personally I have no interest in plug-and-play tactics and think they are a crutch that prevents people learning the game for themselves.

The purpose of this thread is to showcase my own style of play - based upon collectivity, positional rotations and control - and to encourage others to engage in constructive tactical discussion, contribute their own ideas and share their experiences.

Football is inherently subjective; some may take certain aspects to improve their own style of play whilst others may choose to play entirely differently, and that's ok 

[JIPI1]

2 horas atrás, MessiMessiMessi disse:

Then I'd please ask you to explain to us what the changes are that you make. If you don't change anything and the results are this different that would make absolutely no sense because it's really not "plug and play" when it's the same Arsenal players with the same attributes, is it. Just because somebody else is sitting in front of the game the calculations aren't different. If you don't give any hints on what you change to counteract the weaknesses of the tactic, which were shown by multiple people here, how can anybody know?

 

4 horas atrás, Sarriball14 disse:

As already stated, it’s not about getting the same results but considering some of us are using same team, start of a career, probably all got our managers set to the highest qualifications possible, Only one tactic in use, probably have similar training set ups I’d expect to see something similar(not identical) My pre season was heavily focused on tactical familiarity and team cohesion. 

 

16 horas atrás, FelixCAN disse:

The results here with my test with Arsenal absolutely fit the experience you and others had, I'm having a big deja-vu here getting hit on the break for fun and passing the ball to death without creating much chances. I hope the author of the thread gives us an idea what he does to get these results since with multiple people trying it and getting nowhere close, the posted tactic and the PIs alone don't seem to be it.

The easiest way to answer your question is to ask you to look at the name of thread and think about it for a second. It's not about goal scoring records and league winning campaigns. It's about development of a tactical concept (possesion, overloads, movement through positional interchange, pressure) through tactical cohesion and familiarity - colectively - and attriubute and role development - individually. 

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! 

Great work! Incidentally I have a similar system in SL Benfica. I play in a 3-4-3 (5-2-2-1 WB), which naturally grants me the 3-2-5 shape attacking. Biggest differences would be:

 

1. I have 3 attacking roles, as I feel the added penetration of pressing forward and wingbacks is a worthy tradeoff for your beloved fluid unit.
2. One of the wingbacks is inverted, forming the double pivot with the holding midfielder, allowing the box-to-box to venture forward into the line of five, while the winger on that side sits high and wide just like Saka, to force 1v1 against the fullback.
3. I don't have a single playmaking role, as I feel it doesn't favour this type of system. If I occupy 5 channels in the attacking phase, why force the play to go through a specific player (keeping in mind I don't have Pirlo or Xavi).

I have a question, @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!: All your starters in Arsenal have very high attribute for TEAMWORK. How important is it, in your opinion? Is it revelant just for pressing, or does it also facilitate possession and team play in the attack? How important is it for you? I find it hard to find complete players with teamwork higher than 14 without sacrificing something otherwise very important.

Cheers 

Edited March 22, 2022 by JIPI1
To add images.

[crpcarrot]

Attacking  team mentality with supporting roles ......  bloody hell now i see the problems in my tactic

[BrickCommo23]

5 hours ago, JIPI1 said:

 

 

The easiest way to answer your question is to ask you to look at the name of thread and think about it for a second. It's not about goal scoring records and league winning campaigns. It's about development of a tactical concept (possesion, overloads, movement through positional interchange, pressure) through tactical cohesion and familiarity - colectively - and attriubute and role development - individually. 

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! 

Great work! Incidentally I have a similar system in SL Benfica. I play in a 3-4-3 (5-2-2-1 WB), which naturally grants me the 3-2-5 shape attacking. Biggest differences would be:

 

1. I have 3 attacking roles, as I feel the added penetration of pressing forward and wingbacks is a worthy tradeoff for your beloved fluid unit.
2. One of the wingbacks is inverted, forming the double pivot with the holding midfielder, allowing the box-to-box to venture forward into the line of five, while the winger on that side sits high and wide just like Saka, to force 1v1 against the fullback.
3. I don't have a single playmaking role, as I feel it doesn't favour this type of system. If I occupy 5 channels in the attacking phase, why force the play to go through a specific player (keeping in mind I don't have Pirlo or Xavi).

I have a question, @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!: All your starters in Arsenal have very high attribute for TEAMWORK. How important is it, in your opinion? Is it revelant just for pressing, or does it also facilitate possession and team play in the attack? How important is it for you? I find it hard to find complete players with teamwork higher than 14 without sacrificing something otherwise very important.

Cheers 

This is cool, I like this a lot.

[themadsheep2001]

Have cleaned up the thread, we take an extremely dim view of people derailing other people's threads. 

[markoconnell]

IMHO, I've tried the ideas in this thread and haven't seen the movements and plays. Managing the same team apart from Isak as the F9.

It could be a trillion of reasons why it didn't work out as some has put forward but it set me off on a journey to develop the similar concept or idea.

I don't mean to hijack this thread but just sharing my experience on what worked for me.

433 with Tomi on IWB, Odegaard as an attacking Mez and Isak as the F9/PF on support. 2-3-5 movement in attack and having 5 players in the channels ready to combine.

Edited March 23, 2022 by markoconnell

[themadsheep2001]

@Zemahh @argenmik @HurkaDurk69 banned aliases who jump from thread to thread calling people cheats, and then sending abuse to people when pulled up about it are definitely not allowed on the forum, which is why all discussion from/linked to said alias was removed. Now, if you want ask questions of the OP/continue the discussion go ahead,that's actually what we want.

But if you want to keep making snide digs simply because we ask people to follow the rules of the forum, you'll all be removed from the thread entirely. Suggest you leave it there or leave the thread

[themadsheep2001]

7 hours ago, markoconnell said:

IMHO, I've tried the ideas in this thread and haven't seen the movements and plays. Managing the same team apart from Isak as the F9.

It could be a trillion of reasons why it didn't work out as some has put forward but it set me off on a journey to develop the similar concept or idea.

I don't mean to hijack this thread but just sharing my experience on what worked for me.

433 with Tomi on IWB, Odegaard as an attacking Mez and Isak as the F9/PF on support. 2-3-5 movement in attack and having 5 players in the channels ready to combine.

Interested to know if you use any OIs/pressing traps. I use a 4-2-3-1 to attack as a 3-2-5, and it wasn't till I got my pressing traps right that the system became complete in attack and defence. 

 

[kandersson]

I've started a save with my beloved Fiorentina trying to implement this system as I think they're somewhat similar to Arsenal: they have a group of talented young attackers (namely Ikoné, Gonzalez, Castrovilli, Sottil) but after the sell of Dusan Vlahovic lack a legit star striker (Piatek is a very limited poacher type and Arthur Cabral is... fat )

Also did a lot of re-training a la O-zil: CB Martinez Quarta was a perfect candidate for the Tomiyasu role, Gonzalez was re-trained at AMC and veteran trequartista Bonaventura was asked to learn the F9/Odegaard role. Ikoné was a natural choice as our Saka and the versatile Castrovilli mostly played at AML. After 10 games we sit in third place (predicted 8th, no transfers or signings) with a couple of narrow defeats against Juventus and Inter and what feels like a lot of room for improvement (tactical familiarity, players still learning new positions and a couple of bad fits for this system). Some observations:

- Very high ball possession (around 65%) against every type of opponent

- Surprisingly solid defence mostly thanks to the combination of pressing+possession

- Also surprisingly good ratings for the double pivot, with DLP especially active and often looking like a RPM (probably as all the players I used for this role happen to have 'runs with the ball often' trait)

- Scoring chances rely on quality rather than quantity which is both great to see and frustrating when your players miss 1 vs 1 

- Not scoring a ton of goals atm with Gonzalez (AMC) currently top scorer with three goals. This was somewhat expected as AML position (i.e. the top scorer in O-zil system with Martinelli) has been a bit of an issue so far. I like Castrovilli a lot but he lacks the eletctric pace of Martinelli and I suspect  the 'likes ball played into feet' trait also limits his off the ball movement especially for this role (Sottil has the pace but is still pretty raw). AM-IW-F9 on the other hand are performing well creating space and chances for each other.

All in all I can see this system having a ton of potential with the right players, rotation and squad management. Though personally I'm still a fanboy of the 3-1-6 with HB-RPM and a primary goalscorer like Leao so I'm still rooting for that system . Joking aside, a very insipiring thread which I hope will go on like the Caixa academy one. Amazing work as usual 

PS I don't understand why Arteta discarded Torreira so quickly irl, he's a dynamic ball winner who can also work as a deep playmaker and recently has even found a scoring vein for Fiorentina. Personally I'd take him over any defensive midfielder currently at Arsenal...

Edited March 23, 2022 by kandersson

[Zemahh]

58 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

@Zemahh @argenmik @HurkaDurk69 banned aliases who jump from thread to thread calling people cheats, and then sending abuse to people when pulled up about it are definitely not allowed on the forum, which is why all discussion from/linked to said alias was removed.

So what you're saying is users who complained about trying OP's tactic and getting nowhere near the same success are known provocateurs and were essentially lying for the sake of derailing the thread? If so, I understand their posts getting deleted completely and am sure other moderators can confirm your actions were correct. In that case, I apologize for questioning you deleting their posts; to me, they seemed quite reasonable, but I have no access to their history like you do.

Now that they're gone, I would actually be interested in knowing whether anyone has tried replicating OP's success with Arsenal. Posted tactic definitely feels like a breath of fresh air and it would be nice knowing going invincible without Attack duties (and with the original squad) is actually doable in this match engine. Tactics that tend to overachieve this much usually look very differently and tend to have multiple Attack duties and a "balls-to-the-wall" style, whereas this one seems well thought out and looks like it could produce some beautiful movement (at least in theory).

The only thing that looks a bit risky to me are maxed out lines combined with Counter-Press, I find that no matter how pacey my defenders are, they get exposed each and every time I try something this aggressive. From my experience, covering central defender usually gets sucked into the middle regardless of his duty, meaning it only takes one ball over the top for the opposition to be in.

[themadsheep2001]

@Zemahh essentially yes, and one user in particular. There should always be good faith discussion and the forums would die without it, but I promise you that was not the case, hence me wading in with the subtlety of a dump truck . And no apologies needed, water under the bridge. 

On the approach itself, the concept is doable but I think the way here is one of the more complicated methods

The other thing that's missing in my experience which relates to your last paragraph is pressing traps. I think they are fundamentally important in my experience if you're going to do this. 

I've got a straight 4-2-3-1 variant that's  similar to this in concept, which I'll screen in. But it does have vulnerabilities and if you're not aware, you'll get torn apart if your defensive approach isn't up to scratch

[_mxrky]

 @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!Great thread. Very similar to my Arteta recreation although I used positive mentality and a couple of attacking duties previously. Do you find that the wingers stay wide enough in the am strata to hug the touchline like Martinelli and Saka do irl? At least in fm21 wingers got too narrow for my liking, but it may be different in fm22. That's why I am currently experimenting with winger in the midfield strata.

also with your 433. Although Arteta has moved towards the 433 (though again that changes depending on the opposition’s build up structure) , he still primarily presses in a 442 at least from my observation. I’m tempted to try something like this (it’s more of a 316 though):

Edited March 23, 2022 by _mxrky

[Shirts]

1 hour ago, themadsheep2001 said:

@Zemahh essentially yes, and one user in particular. There should always be good faith discussion and the forums would die without it, but I promise you that was not the case, hence me wading in with the subtlety of a dump truck . And no apologies needed, water under the bridge. 

On the approach itself, the concept is doable but I think the way here is one of the more complicated methods

The other thing that's missing in my experience which relates to your last paragraph is pressing traps. I think they are fundamentally important in my experience if you're going to do this. 

I've got a straight 4-2-3-1 variant that's  similar to this in concept, which I'll screen in. But it does have vulnerabilities and if you're not aware, you'll get torn apart if your defensive approach isn't up to scratch

Do you mind sharing / elaborating on your pressing traps? Something I'm not so good on so it would be really helpful. 

As for the OP, I've taken some concepts, mainly the support duties /attacking combo but tried to 'Guardiolaise' it (I'm playing as City atm) - shape to 4-3-3, wingers staying wide, two mezzalas, inside full back (Cancelo). Mixed results so far, possession high but chance creation low. Away to United just now and we had 1 shot in the entire first half, for example. They went down to 10 men in the second, yet we still created nothing and they even scored for a 1-0 win! 

Need to try and work out what I'm missing (possibly pressing traps will help) or if its just resultant of having a not fully fit squad / low tactic familiarity.

Edited March 23, 2022 by Shirts

[markoconnell]

3 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Interested to know if you use any OIs/pressing traps. I use a 4-2-3-1 to attack as a 3-2-5, and it wasn't till I got my pressing traps right that the system became complete in attack and defence. 

 

Cheers for the interest. I’d like my team to ‘show the opposition’ inside when their full backs has the ball and outside when their wingers gets it with show onto foot. Tight marking for the wingers to keep them close to the opposition fullbacks and pressing triggers on their centre backs in case of a bad touch. Bonus, I’ll have my BBM on hard tackling as they gets funneled towards his zone but I haven’t been able to see a difference.

You mentioned you have your 4231 set up as a 325 in the attacking phase? Do you invert a fullback? In my experience, the match engine can’t portray well the fullback inverting as a 3rd centre back (reason why I’ve used an IWB) but I could be dead wrong.

Edited March 23, 2022 by markoconnell

[_mxrky]

2 hours ago, kandersson said:

 

PS I don't understand why Arteta discarded Torreira so quickly irl, he's a dynamic ball winner who can also work as a deep playmaker and recently has even found a scoring vein for Fiorentina. Personally I'd take him over any defensive midfielder currently at Arsenal...

Torreira is far from dynamic. He was actually one of the slowest players at arsenal and lacks athleticism for the premier league + he's not that great on the ball. He's nowhere near as good as Partey or even Xhaka

[themadsheep2001]

@Shirts @markoconnell just playing a couple of matches, will post shortly

[themadsheep2001]

2 hours ago, markoconnell said:

Cheers for the interest. I’d like my team to ‘show the opposition’ inside when their full backs has the ball and outside when their wingers gets it with show onto foot. Tight marking for the wingers to keep them close to the opposition fullbacks and pressing triggers on their centre backs in case of a bad touch. Bonus, I’ll have my BBM on hard tackling as they gets funneled towards his zone but I haven’t been able to see a difference.

You mentioned you have your 4231 set up as a 325 in the attacking phase? Do you invert a fullback? In my experience, the match engine can’t portray well the fullback inverting as a 3rd centre back (reason why I’ve used an IWB) but I could be dead wrong.

Here's how I setup, there are some PIs involved as well. I have my right fullback playing as a 3rd centre back, who only advances occasionally up the pitch if the winger is already highly advanced and committed and there is free space. Must not have gets forward at all times/hugs touchline PPMs, and give them sits narrower. If you really want to limit them, you can teach them stays back at all times PPM but my RB sits back enough to frequently create a 3-2-5 shape

3 - CBs + RB

2 - Central mids

5 - everyone else

[themadsheep2001]

2 hours ago, Shirts said:

Do you mind sharing / elaborating on your pressing traps? Something I'm not so good on so it would be really helpful. 

As for the OP, I've taken some concepts, mainly the support duties /attacking combo but tried to 'Guardiolaise' it (I'm playing as City atm) - shape to 4-3-3, wingers staying wide, two mezzalas, inside full back (Cancelo). Mixed results so far, possession high but chance creation low. Away to United just now and we had 1 shot in the entire first half, for example. They went down to 10 men in the second, yet we still created nothing and they even scored for a 1-0 win! 

Need to try and work out what I'm missing (possibly pressing traps will help) or if its just resultant of having a not fully fit squad / low tactic familiarity.

I have two sets

This is what I initially started with

 

But this is what I am currently using

 

Coupled with my defensive instructions the aim, is to pressure playing out the back across the back line to either turn it over, or force a long kick. I've gone with the second one to increase how often I pick off the hurried kick.

Along with the quick tempo, it means I score a lot of goals against disorganised defences

[kingjericho]

9 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

My OCD has a strong dislike regarding the FB/D being aligned behind the centre-backs...

[Fantasista10]

7 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

But this is what I am currently using

 

Coupled with my defensive instructions the aim, is to pressure playing out the back across the back line to either turn it over, or force a long kick. I've gone with the second one to increase how often I pick off the hurried kick.

Along with the quick tempo, it means I score a lot of goals against disorganised defences

This is quite similar to what I’m currently using but the main difference is I only select Tight Marking on full backs/wing backs and wide midfielders. 
 

I would assume by applying this to every player it can be quite risky? Or do players not mark too tightly unless coupled with tight marking PI? 
 

Without knowing specifics it looks like a Bielsa pressing scheme 

[themadsheep2001]

11 minutes ago, Fantasista10 said:

This is quite similar to what I’m currently using but the main difference is I only select Tight Marking on full backs/wing backs and wide midfielders. 
 

I would assume by applying this to every player it can be quite risky? Or do players not mark too tightly unless coupled with tight marking PI? 
 

Without knowing specifics it looks like a Bielsa pressing scheme 

It can be very risky if the players don't have the required ability or you are up against teams stacked with players who are really, really good at evading markers, as they can destabilise you entirely, which is where going back to the original one is useful

[poobington]

One thing that I think a lot of people overlook is tactical familiarity and the value of a good pre-season to allow tactics to bed in. I'd almost say it makes all the difference, and to be fair it is all the more rewarding when you can see both tactic, and players grow together alongside positive results, similar to what we are seeing in real life with Arsenal.

[john1]

Another top world class thread   

Absolutely laughable to see people moaning when they lose, It's not like Ozil is saying oh play this tactic and you win every game!

[MShing]

I have been using this tactic in my arsenal save and I have seen some great football. We started off not so good found it hard to score, but once the players gelled and got used to the tactic it has been really good. We are currently on a 45 game unbeaten streak and won our last 10 games in a row.

Sitting pretty at the top of the league. I am really enjoying watching the football this tactic produces

Edited March 23, 2022 by MShing

[jdubsnz]

3 hours ago, MShing said:

I have been using this tactic in my arsenal save and I have seen some great football. We started off not so good found it hard to score, but once the players gelled and got used to the tactic it has been really good. We are currently on a 45 game unbeaten streak and won our last 10 games in a row.

Sitting pretty at the top of the league. I am really enjoying watching the football this tactic produces

I'm looking to stick with it, we have had a couple of wins in the Carabao Cup with it but results in the league have been pretty average.  Thought things had finally clicked against Newcastle, raced out to a 3-0 lead in the first half playing some awesome football, Saka and Martinelli getting the goals and Odegaard pulling the strings, and then conceded 3 goals in the second half.  So far its giving me lots of possession, not a lot of chances, and lots of errors leading to goals. It does at times bring out some brilliant play though - going to give it another 5 games.  

I am thinking about making an adjustment to the back 4, so not having Gabriel go wide and switching Tomiyasu to a No Nonsense Fullback where he is playing with more of a defense first mindset. I think the instruction for Gabriel to go wide is creating too big a gap at the moment for us

[khodder]

7 hours ago, markoconnell said:

Do you invert a fullback? In my experience, the match engine can’t portray well the fullback inverting as a 3rd centre back (reason why I’ve used an IWB) but I could be dead wrong.

I've found that PPMs on fullbacks will vastly change how the role play. I've had very good success with creating a back 3 in possession with a back 4 using a FB (s) which PPMs like stays back at all times. But very limited success with a FB (s) with PPms such gets forward as much as possible. 

PPMs drive so much of each players offball movement its key to getting the right attacking shape.

[markoconnell]

6 hours ago, khodder said:

I've found that PPMs on fullbacks will vastly change how the role play. I've had very good success with creating a back 3 in possession with a back 4 using a FB (s) which PPMs like stays back at all times. But very limited success with a FB (s) with PPms such gets forward as much as possible. 

PPMs drive so much of each players offball movement its key to getting the right attacking shape.

Thanks. I do think however that PPM's could be a make or break when factoring those you've mentioned. Although I do have Thomas Partey with 'Comes Deep To Get Ball' with 'Arrives Late In The Box' as my DMC. The latter seeming the more obvious one to make him leave his position.

I hope I'm not hijacking the thread but I'm curious to see in this version of FM that initial formation defines your defensive ship? Or is it different this year? Trying to emulate Arteta's 442, counter-pressing when out of position before settling into a solid mid-block and attacking as a 325.

Exploring options like switch positions to encourage more rotations between Odegaard/Saka though am not willing to have Xhaka as an '8' as compared to real life given his limitedness.

Edited March 24, 2022 by markoconnell

[Jack722]

17 hours ago, _mxrky said:

 @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!Great thread. Very similar to my Arteta recreation although I used positive mentality and a couple of attacking duties previously. Do you find that the wingers stay wide enough in the am strata to hug the touchline like Martinelli and Saka do irl? At least in fm21 wingers got too narrow for my liking, but it may be different in fm22. That's why I am currently experimenting with winger in the midfield strata.

also with your 433. Although Arteta has moved towards the 433 (though again that changes depending on the opposition’s build up structure) , he still primarily presses in a 442 at least from my observation. I’m tempted to try something like this (it’s more of a 316 though):

I would do something similar to this. The wingers in AMR/L definitely don't stay wide enough to create an irl front 5 and it's something I've tried to get to work over an over again, but the only solution is to use a supporting winger in ML/R. Although this brings a new set of problems since they don't get far forward enough and you can easily get stuck in your own half without forward passing options. It's something that I requested here and hopefully we'll see it in the future.

 

It's a shame because a lot of otherwise good threads coming out here lately use some sort of IWB or FBd, and as soon as I see this I don't even bother reading the rest because of the glaring hole in the tactic when carried out in the ME.