[FM23] Best of Britain: Celtic & Rangers in England (reserves stay in Scotland)

[themodelcitizen]

"You used tae hear a lot more about the Old Firm moving tae the English Premier League," the old man said, ruefully sipping his Irn-Bru.

Suddenly, his battered Nokia flip phone buzzed. A text from his auld mate jockstrap. Due to various backroom deals involving dodgy Sheikhs, brown envelopes, and whisky, the plan for the Glaswegian giants to play in the Premier League has been revived. Their reserve teams will take their place in the Scottish Premiership.

For two of the three teams who were scheduled for promotion from the English Championship (and down the tiers), they'll have to wait at least another year. Sorry lads, I dinnae ken what tae tell ye.

The game has defaulted to the Old Firm playing in the English League and FA Cups now. This is much cleaner for continental qualifying and scheduling, although we do need the Scottish advanced rules to keep them out of the Scottish League Cup (at least in the first season).

As much as I wanted to dump both into the Championship (or even level 6) to prove themselves, potential CL group stages in the first season mean that'd be a LOT of fixture congestion.

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Screenshots:

Spoiler

 

Edited November 10, 2022 by themodelcitizen

[HurkaDurk69]

What happens if Celtic B wins the Scottish League

[themodelcitizen]

Pretty sure the CL spot will drop down one spot in the league, given that Celtic's "continental cup nation" is set to England. Celtic B in the Champions League would be funny though.

[HurkaDurk69]

I think adding HG status in England to players with a HG status in Scotland would be a good idea

[themodelcitizen]

Yes! I noticed that, obviously both are fine for the first season with all their English-trained players but it's not ideal. You mean just go through and manually add "trained in nation" and the "between 15 and 21" entry for everyone at the top Scottish clubs? Maybe everyone over a certain CA/PA? Just not sure you can mass edit like that. I had to do every previously Northern Irish player individually for my united Ireland database in FM22, quite time-intensive though

[HurkaDurk69]

56 minutes ago, themodelcitizen said:

Maybe everyone over a certain CA/PA?

Sounds like a good idea 

 

56 minutes ago, themodelcitizen said:

Just not sure you can mass edit like that.

You can! I can show you

Step 1

Spoiler

Pick the players you want to edit by

a) left click on the checkmark on the left of their ID one by one so they get highlighted

b) left click on the checkmark on the left of their ID and then drag the mouse down or up to highlight 

c) left click ONCE on the player name(A), find another player(B). Every player between player 1(A) and player 2(B) will be highlighted(A and B will be highlighted as well)

 

Then just click the edit button in the bottom row after highlight them

Step 2

Spoiler

Since you know how to add HG status I don't need to explain, but this is how the layout looks

 

Hopefully you understand my messy writing, if you have any questions just ask

Edited November 11, 2022 by HurkaDurk69

[themodelcitizen]

Oh great, thanks, I thought that tab was greyed out when you were mass editing people.

The only minor issue arises for the people who will already have some time spent in in England under their belts, really we should be going through and adding the Scottish totals to the English totals. Or maybe it will add the English totals together if there are two entries

edit: and don't forget under "person data" there's "days in club and nation," does the game ignore that and just read the "player data" for CL registration? Or one overrides the other?

Edited November 12, 2022 by themodelcitizen

[HurkaDurk69]

35 minutes ago, themodelcitizen said:

Oh great, thanks, I thought that tab was greyed out when you were mass editing people.

Player Data doesn't show up if you have a non-player(and maybe player/non-player) in the list of people(if that is what you a refering to)

 

35 minutes ago, themodelcitizen said:

The only minor issue arises for the people who will already have some time spent in in England under their belts, really we should be going through and adding the Scottish totals to the English totals. Or maybe it will add the English totals together if there are two entries

I am sorry if I misunderstand you, are you talking about players like Joe Hart(as an example) who already have England as HG? If so, you can check that on the base game, loading Scotland and by going to Scouting > Players > Players in Range, then under conditions > Home-Grown Status, change 'Is' in the next field to 'Is Not' and pick TIN 15-21 England, then go to conditions again > Club > Division and pick the Scottish League.

 

35 minutes ago, themodelcitizen said:

edit: and don't forget under "person data" there's "days in club and nation," does the game ignore that and just read the "player data" for CL registration? Or one overrides the other?

I never use that, I always manually add HG

Edited November 12, 2022 by HurkaDurk69

[themodelcitizen]

Yeah that section might be more for citizenship requirements.

I like your suggestion, ideally we could do the same for Scottish regens but that would require putting Scottish cities in an English region or something similar (this is where somehow manipulating the wider British or UK nationality might come in handy)

[HurkaDurk69]

2 hours ago, themodelcitizen said:

I like your suggestion, ideally we could do the same for Scottish regens but that would require putting Scottish cities in an English region or something similar (this is where somehow manipulating the wider British or UK nationality might come in handy)

Are you talking about getting ENG HG status for the rest of scottish teams besides Celtic/Rangers couple of years later?

[themodelcitizen]

Yeah, so that they could poach their youngsters and they'd still qualify as homegrown. I mean, the whole point is to strengthen Scottish fitba in the long run

[HurkaDurk69]

Have you thought of a way to do it

[HurkaDurk69]

I just noticed something, James Forrest that has spent his entire career at Celtic, and therefore Scotland, has English HG at the start of the game! Same for loads of other players.

[themodelcitizen]

Oh really, in the default game? I haven't made further adjustments, sorry, was working on the Qatar file so that people had something to help get into World Cup fever. Can work more on this soon. Functionally I think both teams would be fine, especially under the AI, unless you were actively trying to build a Lisbon Lions-style homegrown team. That does sound fun so I can consider ways to make it work without having to change everyone like that.

[shortysan86]

Anyone chance you could upload the editor files as I play the GamePass version of the game

[themodelcitizen]

@shortysan86 yeah here you go: https://www.mediafire.com/file/usqp0wgrjz1q3ra/Old_Firm_in_England.fmf/file

@HurkaDurk69 what happens to Cardiff and Wrexham in the default game if they qualify for Europe? Is the game hardcoded to allow Welsh homegrowns?

[HurkaDurk69]

1 hour ago, themodelcitizen said:

what happens to Cardiff and Wrexham in the default game if they qualify for Europe? Is the game hardcoded to allow Welsh homegrowns?

 You should ask in the forum for that information, because I sadly don't have a clue.

[HurkaDurk69]

Hi, I have encountered a "problem", and I hope you have an answer and solution to it

 

I wanted to use the B team as a way for players to get fitness and face good opposistion if they aren't playing(so a reserve team but on steriods). 

However, I noted now when I moved some players to the B team that it came up that they were above the maximum age(seems to be 20). I look in the rules in-game and in the editor and I found no mention of that. Is that hardcoded, or did I just miss it?

if it is hardcoded, can I do anything to override it? 

 

This only seems to be a problem in the league(just did a quick test, have only tested 1 cup)

[themodelcitizen]

I wonder if there's something hard-coded from the way they used the 'B' team in Scotland... is there anything in the profile for the B team itself (like "maximum age" on the club info in the editor)? Or in the affiliation? I'll try to figure out a solution

[HurkaDurk69]

16 hours ago, themodelcitizen said:

I wonder if there's something hard-coded from the way they used the 'B' team in Scotland... is there anything in the profile for the B team itself (like "maximum age" on the club info in the editor)? Or in the affiliation? I'll try to figure out a solution

there is no maximum age for the B team since Scott Bain played in the SPFL trophy

and there is no affiliation(in the affiliated clubs section) since they were created in the Celtic team page

will try and and add rules for B teams only to see if I can override it

[HurkaDurk69]

On 21/12/2022 at 23:40, themodelcitizen said:

I wonder if there's something hard-coded from the way they used the 'B' team in Scotland... is there anything in the profile for the B team itself (like "maximum age" on the club info in the editor)? Or in the affiliation? I'll try to figure out a solution

It was as simple as adding Squad Selection Rules in Fixture Rule

 

But I just noticed that the U21 team does not play in a division in the 1st year, maybe they should be in a division at the start?

[themodelcitizen]

Do they fit into one in the second season? If so I must have decided not to mess with things, but it would be worth giving them some friendlies or something. What other change did you make to the fixture rules? I'll have to release an updated version at some point. Been mostly focusing on my created leagues, this was a fun project to see how the game reacted to the changes though.

[valve]

If you kept 20 teams in the PL, you had to demote 2 teams from every lower league.

Wouldn't it be easier to expand to 22 teams?

[themodelcitizen]

Anything like that requires you to go in and change England's division rules. Plus you've seen how tight scheduling is, adding four matchdays is a pain.

Simply swapping teams out is much easier, even if you have to do it all the way to a few more divisions down - although only going as far as 1 or 2 below the lowest playable division doesn't break anything.

[HurkaDurk69]

6 hours ago, themodelcitizen said:

Do they fit into one in the second season? If so I must have decided not to mess with things, but it would be worth giving them some friendlies or something. What other change did you make to the fixture rules? I'll have to release an updated version at some point. Been mostly focusing on my created leagues, this was a fun project to see how the game reacted to the changes though.

I added "Less than 5 O21 in playing squad", "Less than 10 O21 in match squad", and "Less than 4 O24 in match squad". But I changed it since then to make it so instead of O21 it is O24, and changed O24 to O28 to make the B team more of a U23 team

 

They were in the U21 Premier Division 2 at the start in one test when I first downloaded it, but that was 63k DB changes ago   But yes, they did get a place in the U21 divsion in the second season

[HurkaDurk69]

On 23/12/2022 at 04:21, themodelcitizen said:

I'll have to release an updated version at some point.

what changes will be in that? if there isn't anything new(or that I can do/have done) I might start my save as soon as the realism files get updated. 

[themodelcitizen]

8 hours ago, HurkaDurk69 said:

what changes will be in that? if there isn't anything new(or that I can do/have done) I might start my save as soon as the realism files get updated. 

Likely the same as yours, lol, you should post up your updated version of the file, I bet it will be more detailed and based on actual testing than anything I can come up with. Mostly been playing with my San Marino and Gulf Arab leagues so far. So feel free to start a long termer

[HurkaDurk69]

6 hours ago, themodelcitizen said:

Likely the same as yours, lol, you should post up your updated version of the file, I bet it will be more detailed and based on actual testing than anything I can come up with. Mostly been playing with my San Marino and Gulf Arab leagues so far. So feel free to start a long termer

unfortunately for you, I have made more changes than just the rules(Celtic/Rangers B attendance, stadiums, etc) and I have added more rules than just the O23. So, you have to stop being lazy and do it yourself  

 

However, I have added a rule that doesn't actually work lol

Edited December 29, 2022 by HurkaDurk69

[HurkaDurk69]

However, I have notcied that the AI does not take advantage of the O23/O28 rules in my file. Not sure how to make it so the teams take advantage of it.

[HurkaDurk69]

I just did a big sim with all the leagues loaded, in the 2nd season Celtic B played in the championship AND the reserve league... and next year they ONLY played in the reserve team cup.......... FML

 

I did not even touch any of that besides substitutions and O23/O28 rules 

 

[elt]

I think you should delete the two B teams and create a new seperate reserve team (but not B team so it doesnt get dragged into the auto reserve div maker hopefully) for each club and add it into the scottish prem

[HurkaDurk69]

4 hours ago, elt said:

I think you should delete the two B teams and create a new seperate reserve team (but not B team so it doesnt get dragged into the auto reserve div maker hopefully) for each club and add it into the scottish prem

So I think I understand why it happened(not WHY it happens but WHY it happened)

 

So, in the big sim I did, the starting date was different compared to the small sim test where everything worked, 13/6 compared to 27/6.

 

I have now simmed 3 seasons and the B team is not in the scottish reserve league so I think it is "Fixed"

[Chooxen]

On 30/12/2022 at 20:12, HurkaDurk69 said:

So I think I understand why it happened(not WHY it happens but WHY it happened)

 

So, in the big sim I did, the starting date was different compared to the small sim test where everything worked, 13/6 compared to 27/6.

 

I have now simmed 3 seasons and the B team is not in the scottish reserve league so I think it is "Fixed"

Hey I wanted to check if you or the OP had updated the file on this? Want to download a version I can just plug in and play as I know nothing about editing etc.

[themodelcitizen]

It works, there's an issue where your Champions League "homegrowns" have to be English instead of Scottish, but both rosters have more than enough players like that out of the box. I can't remember what was going on with the reserves but I think they sort themselves out after a season or two

[Chooxen]

Thanks. The main issue I'm having is I put my B team in the Scottish league system and can't use any players older than 21. Is there any way to edit and fix this and how would I do that?

[themodelcitizen]

The age 21 thing might be hardcoded, it's not set up on Celtic's reserve teams or anything. I think if we removed Celtic's B team's "competition" (the SPL) and add a new reserve team for Celtic (either in the "reserve teams" screen or a new club with an affiliation) in the SPL (or wherever you want them to play) then it would function the same way but without the age restriction. I can mess with it this weekend

[HurkaDurk69]

2 hours ago, themodelcitizen said:

The age 21 thing might be hardcoded, it's not set up on Celtic's reserve teams or anything. I think if we removed Celtic's B team's "competition" (the SPL) and add a new reserve team for Celtic (either in the "reserve teams" screen or a new club with an affiliation) in the SPL (or wherever you want them to play) then it would function the same way but without the age restriction. I can mess with it this weekend

This worked for me, can go into more detail later if you want

 

On 23/12/2022 at 11:57, HurkaDurk69 said:

I added "Less than 5 O21 in playing squad", "Less than 10 O21 in match squad", and "Less than 4 O24 in match squad". But I changed it since then to make it so instead of O21 it is O24, and changed O24 to O28 to make the B team more of a U23 team

[themodelcitizen]

For the SPL? Specifically for Rangers and Celtic 'B'? Or is that in an affiliation somewhere?

[HurkaDurk69]

2 hours ago, themodelcitizen said:

For the SPL? Specifically for Rangers and Celtic 'B'? Or is that in an affiliation somewhere?

For all B teams(if any another team has a B team that it)

This if how I have set it up for all leagues(never looked if it was only U21 for cup games though), as you can see, there is an option to make it for B teams only. And this overrides the hidden U21 rule.

However, as I have said before, the AI does not use this enough. Might have to force them to use them as an actual B team by changing 'Less Than' to 'More Than'.

[Chooxen]

I don't suppose there's any way to accomplish that with in-game editor, it's got to be a pre-game change?

[HurkaDurk69]

On 25/02/2023 at 23:24, Chooxen said:

I don't suppose there's any way to accomplish that with in-game editor, it's got to be a pre-game change?

Nope

[Craig_J]

On 30/12/2022 at 06:57, HurkaDurk69 said:

I just did a big sim with all the leagues loaded, in the 2nd season Celtic B played in the championship AND the reserve league... and next year they ONLY played in the reserve team cup.......... FML

 

I did not even touch any of that besides substitutions and O23/O28 rules 

 

Did you ever find a solution to this?