Defending with a 3-3-3-1 formation

[Skywalk3r83]

Hi everybody!

I’m going to test this formation/roles with my Ajax save, any suggestions how to defend with no FB/WB in our back 3? Maybe changing some roles? 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Skywalk3r83

[Skywalk3r83]

Current roles and line-up, using a Libero just like Ajax had back in the days. 
Roles and team instructions are from @RDF Tactics , his 3331 from a couple of years ago. 
I added low crosses and slightly higher tempo, plus stop crosses.

PI's
BPD - Stay Wider
CAR - Pass short
SS - Roam
W - Pass short, Hold position

Using this formation the last couple of matches, we only had one loss.
Bit lucky against Excelsior, but we should have scored more.

[kayyuenchinup]

Try to add player instructions "mark position" to e.g. Right BPD on AML and left BPD on AMR.  In that case can stop conceding goals when they attack your flank.  

[Skywalk3r83]

7 hours ago, kayyuenchinup said:

Try to add player instructions "mark position" to e.g. Right BPD on AML and left BPD on AMR.  In that case can stop conceding goals when they attack your flank.  

Thanks! That’s a good one!

[kayyuenchinup]

Before I usually conceded goals from the flanks, where their AML/AMR would cross the ball to the other flank and score.  

I tried Opposition Instruction - Tight Marking and Trigger Press on AML and AMR.  But with that other players (Not only right and left BPD) will chase their AML and AMR and you would lose the defensive shape.  

[b2khn]

I would rather field IWB(a) or cwb(a).

[DarJ]

out of curiosity why would you have a DLP in the DM position when you have a libero. Don't they do the same job?

[Andrew Marines]

1 ora fa, DarJ ha scritto:

out of curiosity why would you have a DLP in the DM position when you have a libero. Don't they do the same job?

No, a libero on supprt will hold his position just like a bpd. Only when he has the ball, his duties change. A libero on attack, however, will play in the DM role when the team is attacking and will lead to issues with the tactic itself.

 

Still, using a dlp is probably not the best choice. A vanilla defensive midfielder will work better in this situation

[Skywalk3r83]

I’m still testing with it, thanks for sharing your thoughts! Only issue is that I promised Blind to use him as DLP😆🙈. I will give the DM a go, DM on support to begin with. 

1 hour ago, DarJ said:

out of curiosity why would you have a DLP in the DM position when you have a libero. Don't they do the same job?

 

24 minutes ago, Andrew Marines said:

No, a libero on supprt will hold his position just like a bpd. Only when he has the ball, his duties change. A libero on attack, however, will play in the DM role when the team is attacking and will lead to issues with the tactic itself.

 

Still, using a dlp is probably not the best choice. A vanilla defensive midfielder will work better in this situation

 

[Skywalk3r83]

4 hours ago, b2khn said:

I would rather field IWB(a) or cwb(a).

Yeah maybe for a new experiment later on in the save👍🏻

[DarJ]

32 minutes ago, Andrew Marines said:

No, a libero on supprt will hold his position just like a bpd. Only when he has the ball, his duties change. A libero on attack, however, will play in the DM role when the team is attacking and will lead to issues with the tactic itself.

 

Still, using a dlp is probably not the best choice. A vanilla defensive midfielder will work better in this situation

I've never played with a libero so I was just curious 

[Andrew Marines]

28 minuti fa, Skywalk3r83 ha scritto:

I’m still testing with it, thanks for sharing your thoughts! Only issue is that I promised Blind to use him as DLP😆🙈. I will give the DM a go, DM on support to begin with. 

 

 

I told you about the DM cause(i'm still playing on FM22. i don't think the devs changed how this works but still, try it yourself), if a wide-centerback or the libero get further forward, he will go into their positions to be defensively safe. A dlp, won't do this.

[Overmars]

If you are accepting the weakness of having no fullbacks or wingbacks then you have to get something out of that sacrifice. With three central midfielders playing timidly, I don't think you are getting enough compensation for that defensive weakness. What makes this better than a 4-2-3-1? Defensively, it looks worse, and I don't see anyone behind the front four getting up field for an attack.

I would want to get more aggressive in the middle. If you are just going to use 2 CAR(s) players then you might as well revert back to a 4-2-3-1 and get proper defensive coverage behind your front four.

[Andrew Marines]

Il 16/12/2022 in 08:51 , Overmars ha scritto:

If you are accepting the weakness of having no fullbacks or wingbacks then you have to get something out of that sacrifice. With three central midfielders playing timidly, I don't think you are getting enough compensation for that defensive weakness. What makes this better than a 4-2-3-1? Defensively, it looks worse, and I don't see anyone behind the front four getting up field for an attack.

I would want to get more aggressive in the middle. If you are just going to use 2 CAR(s) players then you might as well revert back to a 4-2-3-1 and get proper defensive coverage behind your front four.

Carilleros will still get around the box and even inside when they have space. Obviously he could try other roles, that's why he asked there.

But other than that, why should he change how he wants to play? He's trying to remake old-Ajax and even getting  good results with that.

Edited December 18, 2022 by Andrew Marines

[Xavier Lukhas]

On 13/12/2022 at 19:54, Skywalk3r83 said:

Yeah maybe for a new experiment later on in the save👍🏻

I've done the 3-4-3 diamond in the past thanks to the thread below.

Unless the ME has changed a lot, the answer is WB(A). CWB(A) seems not to be as smart and effective in its choices for some reason even though the role description is what you'd want out of him. WB(A) is a lot more straightforward: they will occupy and offer width, they'll dive into the box, they're actually a bit more free in their movement than CWB(A) or IWB(A), and they're not completely selfish either like Wingers on Attack duty. CWB(A) stays wide a lot, IWB(A) always tries to cut inside, WB(A) can do either depending of your team's width. You don't even need someone who's particularly good at defending there, you can very well stick a AML/R or a ML/R in the slot; you'll just have to tolerate your AssMan moaning about Player X being played out of position. The only issue is that you'll defend with a back 5 when you're out of possession with a narrow diamond in the middle. Not only it isn't really how the 3-4-3 was played defensively, but you'll have to be somewhat careful on the wings. Try to retain possession as much as possible to prevent WB(A)s from running too much to cover both their offensive and defensive prerogatives.

Ah yeah, and IME the CAR role doesn't do anything interesting. A player can perform with that role, bu the role itself just doesn't seem to do much even though you'd think it would be welcome in such a scenario. It's puzzling how it's tough to figure out what they actually do differently from other roles... if they do anything at all. This video is from FM21, but I'm not convinced the role has changed with FM23; I'm open to being mistaken though.

A customized CM(S) or BBM are more interesting, alongside partnerships like DLP(S)/RPM(S) or double MEZ. CM(S) offers recycling options while also offering a threat from range, BBMs run forward and especially backwards a lot as they have for hidden trait the fact that they track back deeper when the team's defending, MEZ is more offensively inclined while also working in the channels/half-spaces a bit more. For those midfield roles, the players are going to matter a lot more than the role itself: they need to be able to find space for themselves and make versatile choices.

Edited January 1, 2023 by Xavier Lukhas