Simple crafting of a 4-3-3 DM

[jamesh123]

1 hour ago, Johnny Ace said:

That looks fine @jamesh123 

Changes worked a treat 

[ejleal]

Great thread. I've been following this and have taken some ideas for my tactic.

I'm doing a save with braga and i wanted to employ a possession system. Initially, i thought to start with positive mentality, but since it comes with more risky passing, higher tempo and width, i would have to choose TIs to counterbalance those. So, in order to simplify, i choose balanced mentality and work ball into the box to help find spaces in case i came up against packed defences.

After some games, i saw i had to use more aggressive out of possession instructions (initially i was using higher defensive line and press more often) in order to control games and be more effective. So far its working.

[Johnny Ace]

That looks great @ejleal 

You might be a tad vulnerable down the right hand side so just knock the FB down to (S) if it starts causing you issues or use it to see out games. Alternatively you could bump up the MEZZ to (A) if chasing a goal or struggling to break through 

[HanziZoloman]

Am 25.7.2023 um 21:28 schrieb HanziZoloman:

My YAC setup looks like this: 

Rhys Platt is leading the Goalscoring stats of the league. It's very simple and works amazing.

Do you guys meet the same problem that during a season a fine working system suddenly stops working? How do you respond to that. I don’t want to do major changings but just tweak it like described above.

I tried to change into an overload down the right the AP(a) goes into a MEZ(s) the left MC(s) into a BWM the IF from (s) to (a) plus focus play down the right. I am not sure if it is too demanding of my Vanarama side but It helped turning a losing streak around. Any suggestions how to tweak the above tactic just a little? The poacher is the most dangerous player.

[Johnny Ace]

3 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

Do you guys meet the same problem that during a season a fine working system suddenly stops working? How do you respond to that. I don’t want to do major changings but just tweak it like described above.

I think most people do and it goes one of two ways:

1)You over achieve, you're seen as a bigger threat to teams so they play with more caution against you

2) You under achieve, you're not seen as the threat you were so teams attack you more

I can see you're 8th so assume you're overachieving but saying it's stopped working doesn't give us much info, you'd probably be better off starting your own thread giving as much detail as possible into how it's stopped working  

On a side note, you've still got the silver star centre back, is there no one you can retrain to play there? 

 

[Mutumba]

10 hours ago, ejleal said:

Great thread. I've been following this and have taken some ideas for my tactic.

I'm doing a save with braga and i wanted to employ a possession system. Initially, i thought to start with positive mentality, but since it comes with more risky passing, higher tempo and width, i would have to choose TIs to counterbalance those. So, in order to simplify, i choose balanced mentality and work ball into the box to help find spaces in case i came up against packed defences.

After some games, i saw i had to use more aggressive out of possession instructions (initially i was using higher defensive line and press more often) in order to control games and be more effective. So far its working.

 

13 hours ago, jamesh123 said:

This is the attributes and traits for my choice of player to play the AP(A) role, and then this is the set up I could try, unless I possibly use a poacher as previously suggested? Or is the AF or another striker role more suited now I've changed the roles of the RW and RB?

 

So just a question for each of you, and ive multi quoted both of you since the question is intertwined. 

@ejleal You are using a very high backline, yet you are using a standard GK-d

@jamesh123 You are using a standard D-line, yet you have a SK-AT. 

"Should" it not be the other way around?

Having such an aggressive SK-AT for a normal D-line seems a bit superfluous and risky, wheras not having at least SK-S for a very high D-line seems a bit risky?

[HanziZoloman]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Johnny Ace:

On a side note, you've still got the silver star centre back, is there no one you can retrain to play there? 

He is gold star now . I thought as it's still a 433 it could be discussed here and could be of interest for others too (?)

[Lasson]

10 minutes ago, HanziZoloman said:

He is gold star now . I thought as it's still a 433 it could be discussed here and could be of interest for others too (?)

I actually enjoy reading about the different kind of 4-3-3's in this thread, but I would totally understand if @Johnny Ace would want to keep it to a minimum. I myself have posted quite a bit in this thread already with my variations of 4-3-3 without considering if it was okay to do so.

[Johnny Ace]

16 minutes ago, HanziZoloman said:

He is gold star now . I thought as it's still a 433 it could be discussed here and could be of interest for others too (?)

Yeah, it's awesome seeing other 4-3-3 DMs but this thread is about is about piecing together a 4-3-3 DM to try and help others think about how they set their roles in a straight forward coherent way.  When it starts going into specific issues it's probably better starting a new thread as that thread is then talking about issues with your own tactic 

13 minutes ago, Lasson said:

I actually enjoy reading about the different kind of 4-3-3's in this thread, but I would totally understand if @Johnny Ace would want to keep it to a minimum. I myself have posted quite a bit in this thread already with my variations of 4-3-3 without considering if it was okay to do so.

No, it's fine, a bit of general help here isn't a problem. Overachieving, underachieving, dealing with reputation shifts etc where a lot of detail is needed to be given to help the issue is quite specific and deserves it's own thread, that's more helpful to others than being hidden away here

Like here, I can't see anything wrong with @HanziZoloman's roles and it'll likely be down to the tactics TIs but at this point it time, it's not 100% clear on what the issues are. Are teams more defensive against him and he can't break them down? He's having loads of chances but isn't scoring? He's not creating chances? He's getting battered all of a sudden? He's getting "FMed"? etc  those are the kind of details needed for anyone to offer advice 

[HanziZoloman]

Sure I understand 

what does FMed mean?

[Johnny Ace]

1 minute ago, HanziZoloman said:

Sure I understand 

what does FMed mean?

Having 30 shots versus the opponent's 2 and losing 1-0 

[ejleal]

4 hours ago, Mutumba said:

 

 

So just a question for each of you, and ive multi quoted both of you since the question is intertwined. 

@ejleal You are using a very high backline, yet you are using a standard GK-d

@jamesh123 You are using a standard D-line, yet you have a SK-AT. 

"Should" it not be the other way around?

Having such an aggressive SK-AT for a normal D-line seems a bit superfluous and risky, wheras not having at least SK-S for a very high D-line seems a bit risky?

Yeah, i could use a Sk, although i probably would use SK-De, since i don't need him to be very risky with his passing. I just haven't had many problems with GK-D. 

[Tsuru]

Em 23/07/2023 em 20:54, Johnny Ace disse:

4-3-3 DM - the wide Advanced Playmaker (which includes the Trequarista) 

For when you're a bit bored of using Inverted Wingers and Inside Forwards  

I like the wide Advanced Playmakers on Attack this year, they're one of the roles with the most movement, you'll find them quite infield at times, helping out the midfield and finding space. Lets have a quick look at their FM profile

 

You'll see, even on Attack, they're not hard coded to Get Further Forward like most wide Attack duty roles. Same with the Trequartista 

So they're not a hugely aggressive wide roles, when compared to an Inside Forward or Inverted Winger on Attack. They're more about creating chances for others but they will find themselves in positions to take a shot at goal. The Trequartista is a little more offensive as they don't have Shoot Less Often hard coded 

I really would recommend World Class players in these roles to see the best from them, they're a lot of fun to watch 

It's a bit boring really and I'll be repeating myself a bit as it follows the other templates

You could easily have both Wingbacks on Attack here and use the DM powerhouse role, the HalfBack instead of the DM but I found having an attacking Wingback on the flank of the Playmaker, the Wingback would often dribble past the playmaker. BPD can be either side, just my best one here was left footed, or you can use both as BPDs or straight up CDs 

As we're using Wingbacks on both flanks, I'll be going conservative in the middle of the field, no Mezzala's or anything interesting, just solid roles to keep the midfield triangle tight and in control of the game. The nature of the number 8's allow the best from the wide attacking roles 

 

Probably my most used trio of midfield roles in FM23, at any level you should have players in your squad that can fit these roles. So simple yet effective

 

Again, these roles aren't set in stone, they just suited to the team I was using, a Pressing Forward on Attack or Poacher could lead the line. A Complete Forward on Attack could be interesting but I like to pair them off with an IF(S/A) due to their roaming 

The IW could be an IF(S) if a bit more oomph is needed from over on the left

  Mostrar conteúdo oculto

 

Hi Johnny, this is very interesting as I have a natural wide Advanced Playmaker in my LLM save in Brazil. I will try this with some tweaks, maybe a Balanced mentality and not all the instructions, a IF S on the other side, but in general I think it suits my team very well, thank you. 

I will let you know how is my version going on!

[Johnny Ace]

Just now, Tsuru said:

I will let you know how is my version going on!

Fantastic!! Please do! Great to see you back @Tsuru

I have zero experience in Brazil, I thought it was all box formations there so you'll have to see how a 4-4-3 gets on

[Lasson]

Some minor tweaks as I wasn't feeling the previous setup with this team. Also, apparently, I feel better having a striker occupying the defenders instead of trying to drag them out of position. That might all change again if I can find strikers with a better feel for creating instead of scoring. I also introduced the DLPs as my holding midfielder behind a pretty generic duo with a CMs and CMa. I had three (!) players all good enough to play in the starting eleven with "Dictates tempo" and "Likes to switch ball to wide areas".

Oh, well. This also produced this result in the Champions League, which made me feel a bit better for leaving Serbia.

[Skywalk3r83]

Here’s my 433 I use with Sassuolo. Won the first four matches, including a 2-0 against Lazio.
Any suggestions for improvement? I'm thinking of changing the BBM to a standard CM on support. 
On the right side perhaps an IFs and a WBs. 

Play out of defence, Much shorter passing, Work ball into box, Low crosses.
Counter press, Counter, Distribute to CB.
High press, Much more often, Prevent short GK distribution.

GK SKs
DR FBs (shoot less often) - DRC CDd - DLC BPDd - DL FBs (shoot less often)
DM DLPs - MRC BBMs - MLC MEZa
AMR IWs (stay wider) - AML IWs (stay wider)
SC CFa

Edited July 28, 2023 by Skywalk3r83
screenshot added.

[jamesh123]

15 hours ago, Mutumba said:

 

 

So just a question for each of you, and ive multi quoted both of you since the question is intertwined. 

@ejleal You are using a very high backline, yet you are using a standard GK-d

@jamesh123 You are using a standard D-line, yet you have a SK-AT. 

"Should" it not be the other way around?

Having such an aggressive SK-AT for a normal D-line seems a bit superfluous and risky, wheras not having at least SK-S for a very high D-line seems a bit risky?

To be fair, I am just experimenting with it at the moment. But with the mentality being on positive, and using the Step up more TI, I'm trying it out for the keeper to be more closer to the defence as part of the "rest defence". Ideally I'd like him positioned further out from goal to give him a better chance of sweeping up any balls over the top, and also increase the likelihood that he attempts to help out in the build up more efficiently and higher up the pitch than you would expect. So far so good though, he is currently the goalkeeper attempting the most passes per 90, has the most saves per game (probably due to our standard of team), and has 6 clean sheets from 10 without making any errors from being caught out high off his line.

[Soylent]

FIgured I'd give an update on how I settled in terms of the 4-3-3 as I wasn't sure before.

I decided against the DLF, tried the CF a bit, but had an injury to my main IF so figured I'd just change the IF to support and go with AF which does work really well when countering.

I noticed with the Mezzala on support there wasn't enough happening up front, on Attack he just likes to break the lines more, which also gives more space to the IW. I felt that because the Mezzala was going up more now, I didn't want the LCM to roam too much and made him an CM on Support, though I'm not sure if BWM on Support would be much different as it was before, just felt it made a bit more sense somehow.

Where before it was all a bit up and down, it's not really more up, possibly also to do with TIs, but going forward we look dangerous and defensively we hardly put a foot wrong.

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by Soylent

[Johnny Ace]

I should've reserved some posts at the start of this thread, here's a bit of an index:

 

Out and out Striker

 

Creative Striker and Creative Goal Scoring Striker

 

With Fullbacks  

 

Fullback and Wingback 

Fullback and Wingback(Attack)  

CM/MEZZ(Attack) 

 

Possession style with a Regista/ Roaming Playmaker

False 9 including an overload

Target Man Direct style - untried 

Wide Advanced Playmaker and Trequartista 

Complete Forward/ Trequartista 

Roaming Playmaker in Centre Midfield 

Pressing Forward (Defend)

The IWB(A)

Think that's all of them 

 

[ejleal]

10 hours ago, Skywalk3r83 said:

Here’s my 433 I use with Sassuolo. Won the first four matches, including a 2-0 against Lazio.
Any suggestions for improvement? I'm thinking of changing the BBM to a standard CM on support. 
On the right side perhaps an IFs and a WBs. 

Play out of defence, Much shorter passing, Work ball into box, Low crosses.
Counter press, Counter, Distribute to CB.
High press, Much more often, Prevent short GK distribution.

GK SKs
DR FBs (shoot less often) - DRC CDd - DLC BPDd - DL FBs (shoot less often)
DM DLPs - MRC BBMs - MLC MEZa
AMR IWs (stay wider) - AML IWs (stay wider)
SC CFa

You haven't said the mentality you're using.

Anyway if its working stick with it. If you're enconter some difficulties, you can try some things like change the Fb (s) to Wb (s), since you have a DLP (d) (althought maybe you may need to change the duty of the mezzala to support inorder to maintain some balance). Or as you said, turn the right IW into a If (s) to provide a second attacking threat to make use of the space the complete forward creates when roaming.

Edited July 28, 2023 by ejleal

[ejleal]

8 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

I should've reserved some posts at the start of this thread, here's a bit of an index:

 

Out and out Striker

 

Creative Striker 

 

With Fullbacks  

 

Fullback and Wingback 

Fullback and Wingback(Attack)  

CM/MEZZ(Attack) 

 

Possession style with a Regista/ Roaming Playmaker

 

 

False 9 

 

 

Target Man Direct style - untried 

Wide Advanced Playmaker and Trequartista 

Complete Forward/ Trequartista 

 

Think that's all of them 

 

Excellent. Shame there isn't similar threads for other formations in this forum. that would be cool.

[Johnny Ace]

10 hours ago, Skywalk3r83 said:

Here’s my 433 I use with Sassuolo. Won the first four matches, including a 2-0 against Lazio.

Sounds good then so far 

10 hours ago, Skywalk3r83 said:

Any suggestions for improvement? I'm thinking of changing the BBM to a standard CM on support. 
On the right side perhaps an IFs and a WBs. 

I'd probably look to use an IF(S) on the right, just to add some variation on the wings

I'd be more tempted to use a DLP(S) at DM, just keep an eye on your midfield 3. Personally, I'm not a fan of a D-S-A in a midfield triangle because the MEZZ(A) can bomb into the box whilst the DLP(D) is hanging back leaving a chasm of space in midfield. I would use a CM(S) to partner the MEZZ. MEZZ(A) and CM(A) are the two most aggressive roles available in CM, having a "roaming" partner in CM could also create issues.

Of course, this all depends on the level of your team and opponent, you can get away with riskier tactics with a stronger team   

[Johnny Ace]

28 minutes ago, ejleal said:

Excellent. Shame there isn't similar threads for other formations in this forum. that would be cool.

I could do a 4-2-3-1 DM one but it'll most likely be for FM24 now

I don't really use 3/5 at the back systems, I've dabbled with diamonds and use a clodder 4-4-2 that doesn't really change much, so I wouldn't be much use on other shapes 

[HanziZoloman]

How would you support a RPM in a 433?

guess he‘ll need multiple players around him to play with. 

[Johnny Ace]

Just now, HanziZoloman said:

How would you support a RPM in a 433?

guess he‘ll need multiple players around him to play with. 

You mean in CM? I've just jotted down something for my save to try out tonight. I can post it up later with notes if you want

[Lasson]

3 minutes ago, HanziZoloman said:

How would you support a RPM in a 433?

guess he‘ll need multiple players around him to play with. 

4 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

Possession style with a Regista/ Roaming Playmaker

[HanziZoloman]

vor 18 Minuten schrieb Johnny Ace:

You mean in CM? I've just jotted down something for my save to try out tonight. I can post it up later with notes if you want

That would be great. I ask myself how to create a lower league constant movement and I instantly thought about the RPM.

[Johnny Ace]

8 minutes ago, HanziZoloman said:

That would be great. I ask myself how to create a lower league constant movement and I instantly thought about the RPM.

I'm not sure it'll fit lower league management as I'm managing an elite team and it's drafted out to for who I have available (and it's only theory, I've not seen how it plays out yet ) but I'm sure I can put one together more suitable  

[HanziZoloman]

Aye it’s ok … maybe we can simplify it but I’m eager to see it 

my silver star is now gold so maybe he can do it 

[Johnny Ace]

On request for @HanziZoloman

4-3-3 DM - RPM(S) at Centre Midfield - LLM style

I've tried fitting it to your players from your tactic, keeping it simple and straight forward

The backline is nothing out of the ordinary, I've used a FB(A) with the Dribble Less PI at rightback to try and get that interaction with the RPM, the leftback is free to go forward and create the overlap on the left, he can be bumped up to Attack if needed

If your 'keeper can't play Sweeper Keeper, drop the D-Line and just play a GK(D)

The midfield, Anchor to keep it simple, a BWM to break up play and the RPM. The FB(A) helps tuck in a little more than a WB to help keep midfield solidity with the RPM's roaming on the right hand side. I've added Dribble More to my RPM because he's a fantastic ball carrier and I love to encourage those runs on the ball from midfield 

 

I've used an IF(S) on the left to offer threat and create chances, if you want your RPM as the team's "risky passer" use an IW(S) instead or use it on a situational basis ie more offense needed use the IF, less offense needed use the IW. The Wingback will stay wide to allow the left attacker to move infield. The Winger to provide the width on the right, FB can then drift infield. So two different combinations on the flanks for variety 

 

Feel free to use a Poacher, PF(A) or an Advanced Forward, either way you want them pushing on and looking for balls over the top

Full tactic, including TI's 

Spoiler

I prefer the Midblock in the YAC, no point in chasing high up the field with the players you have. I like to push the D-Line up and use a SK for team compactness. The Trigger Press is up to you.

Counter, of course, it's a great shape to counter and with pace in the front 3, it can be vital. Distribute to centre backs to try and encourage progressive passes into the RPM.

Passing length is up to you but I like to keep it short with an influential playmaker. Fairly Narrow helps the team on and off the ball, with the Wing players there's natural width so you can go Narrow if you wish and open it up as needed. 

I tried out my version for a match and the RPM picked up two assists, bonus GIFS 

Spoiler

  

I tried out the above version too, GIF time 

Spoiler

 

[HanziZoloman]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Johnny Ace:

On request for @HanziZoloman

4-3-3 DM - RPM(S) at Centre Midfield - LLM style

I've tried fitting it to your players from your tactic, keeping it simple and straight forward

The backline is nothing out of the ordinary, I've used a FB(A) with the Dribble Less PI at rightback to try and get that interaction with the RPM, the leftback is free to go forward and create the overlap on the left, he can be bumped up to Attack if needed

If your 'keeper can't play Sweeper Keeper, drop the D-Line and just play a GK(D)

The midfield, Anchor to keep it simple, a BWM to break up play and the RPM. The FB(A) helps tuck in a little more than a WB to help keep midfield solidity with the RPM's roaming on the right hand side. I've added Dribble More to my RPM because he's a fantastic ball carrier and I love to encourage those runs on the ball from midfield 

 

I've used an IF(S) on the left to offer threat and create chances, if you want your RPM as the team's "risky passer" use an IW(S) instead or use it on a situational basis ie more offense needed use the IF, less offense needed use the IW. The Wingback will stay wide to allow the left attacker to move infield. The Winger to provide the width on the right, FB can then drift infield. So two different combinations on the flanks for variety 

 

Feel free to use a Poacher, PF(A) or an Advanced Forward, either way you want them pushing on and looking for balls over the top

Full tactic, including TI's 

  Inhalt unsichtbar machen

I prefer the Midblock in the YAC, no point in chasing high up the field with the players you have. I like to push the D-Line up and use a SK for team compactness. The Trigger Press is up to you.

Counter, of course, it's a great shape to counter and with pace in the front 3, it can be vital. Distribute to centre backs to try and encourage progressive passes into the RPM.

Passing length is up to you but I like to keep it short with an influential playmaker. Fairly Narrow helps the team on and off the ball, with the Wing players there's natural width so you can go Narrow if you wish and open it up as needed. 

I tried out my version for a match and the RPM picked up two assists, bonus GIFS 

  Inhalt unsichtbar machen

  

I tried out the above version too, GIF time 

  Inhalt unsichtbar machen

 

Oh man! I am so thankful! Can’t express my gratitude (you want a Guiness? I pay!) it’s so beautiful I love it man. Thank you so much. I‘ll try it out when time is right (two kids) and I have a guy for the RPM role and three pacy attackers. It should work out. Wow! Thank you so much. AMAZING! 

[Johnny Ace]

11 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

Oh man! I am so thankful! Can’t express my gratitude (you want a Guiness? I pay!) 

 No, you're alright thank you, treat yourself to a pint 

11 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

I‘ll try it out when time is right (two kids) and I have a guy for the RPM role and three pacy attackers. It should work out. Wow! Thank you so much. AMAZING! 

No problem, it should give you a solid enough base to start with good luck 

[Skywalk3r83]

16 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

On request for @HanziZoloman

4-3-3 DM - RPM(S) at Centre Midfield - LLM style

I've tried fitting it to your players from your tactic, keeping it simple and straight forward

The backline is nothing out of the ordinary, I've used a FB(A) with the Dribble Less PI at rightback to try and get that interaction with the RPM, the leftback is free to go forward and create the overlap on the left, he can be bumped up to Attack if needed

If your 'keeper can't play Sweeper Keeper, drop the D-Line and just play a GK(D)

The midfield, Anchor to keep it simple, a BWM to break up play and the RPM. The FB(A) helps tuck in a little more than a WB to help keep midfield solidity with the RPM's roaming on the right hand side. I've added Dribble More to my RPM because he's a fantastic ball carrier and I love to encourage those runs on the ball from midfield 

 

I've used an IF(S) on the left to offer threat and create chances, if you want your RPM as the team's "risky passer" use an IW(S) instead or use it on a situational basis ie more offense needed use the IF, less offense needed use the IW. The Wingback will stay wide to allow the left attacker to move infield. The Winger to provide the width on the right, FB can then drift infield. So two different combinations on the flanks for variety 

 

Feel free to use a Poacher, PF(A) or an Advanced Forward, either way you want them pushing on and looking for balls over the top

Full tactic, including TI's 

  Reveal hidden contents

I prefer the Midblock in the YAC, no point in chasing high up the field with the players you have. I like to push the D-Line up and use a SK for team compactness. The Trigger Press is up to you.

Counter, of course, it's a great shape to counter and with pace in the front 3, it can be vital. Distribute to centre backs to try and encourage progressive passes into the RPM.

Passing length is up to you but I like to keep it short with an influential playmaker. Fairly Narrow helps the team on and off the ball, with the Wing players there's natural width so you can go Narrow if you wish and open it up as needed. 

I tried out my version for a match and the RPM picked up two assists, bonus GIFS 

  Reveal hidden contents

  

I tried out the above version too, GIF time 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Interesting tactic, maybe I can get it to work in my Bilbao save. 

[Lasson]

Quick question: How would you guys use this player in the 4-3-3? His ability on the ball is still excellent, but his physical stats are not the greatest anymore. I was thinking Regista, but I'm not sure if he's suitable to be a DM in a single pivot. All advice would be appreciated.

[HanziZoloman]

maybe a DLP in MC

[Johnny Ace]

6 minutes ago, HanziZoloman said:

maybe a DLP in MC

 Eurgh!  Only joking, that's a good shout though but personally, I'm not a fan of a holding role in CM, I always feel they lag behind a little too much but that's me 

An AP(S) maybe @Lasson, even as a CM(S) he'll showcase his skills 

[Lasson]

Something like this perhaps?

Yes, the player is Christian Eriksen, who I was able to lure home to Denmark after three seasons in Benfica.

[Johnny Ace]

1 minute ago, Lasson said:

Something like this perhaps?

Looks good to me 

[HanziZoloman]

I had some game time yesterday and tried your RPM tactics @Johnny Ace until December:

Results vary.

First of all, we really did some special football. In some games everything is fitting into the picture and we had some total football moments. Especially against some of the lesser capable teams. Given that we are top 1 relegation candidates by far, it seems like most teams in the league are less capable than we are. In FA Cup we managed a strong first round and we had difficulties in the qualifying rounds for years. Some months when opponents were not that good we really put together something with a lot of green rating performances. 

However against the top sides from 1st to 8th we are without a chance. We lose 1:4 vs Dartford, 0:2 against Eastbourne, 0:4 against Braintree, 1:3 vs Dulwich and 1:4 against Worthing. Mostly we really were outclassed and never had a chance to chase for a win. On the contrary we managed to eliminate bigger clubs in FA Cup. 

I will stick to that formation but have to try and tweak a little against those bigger rivals. This is a brilliant formation and combination of roles and duties because we are number one relegation candidates but 5 points behind promotion spots.

[Lasson]

3 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Looks good to me 

If it's not working, I will switch the APs to CMs and perhaps the FBs to FBa on the right side.

[Johnny Ace]

Yeah @HanziZoloman that can happen, if there's a big gulf in quality between the two teams, there's not a lot you can do about it tactically, the best tactic in the World could still lose those sort of games. All you can do is try your best and motivate the lads as best you can 

Like, in the example tactic I gave you, you could lose the Shorter Passing and maybe look to Pass into Space instead to try and find openings. Maybe switch to a split press instead to try and keep the backline and midfield in shape better, those sort of things    

[HanziZoloman]

thanks much will try all that 

edith: a split block gave us way more stability and we looked sharper in defence against the bigger ones even managed our first win against 3rd Tonbridge. Thanks man! 

Edited July 30, 2023 by HanziZoloman

[OJ403]

I've been following this thread without commenting, but it really is a fantastic bit of work! I would suggest that the principles discussed are one of the best ways to create tactics in any formation/style, not just the 4-3-3. I came across an interesting thread on reverse engineering tactics from the playing squad and tactical ideals, but can't remember where I found it (I think it spoke about City as an example), that's very similar to this.

How would people look to set up a 4-3-3, or indeed any similar shapes (4-2-3-1 and the like), with deeper full backs as seems to be the trend today? I've just the point in my Hamburg save where attacking full backs are becoming a rarity and have just signed a right back more in the Wan Bissaka mould (can't dribble, can't cross, can tackle and do anything mental baring work rate) and mainly use deeper build up left backs. We've typically bombed our right back forward to allow our AMR (currently Roony Bardghji) to come infield and operate as one of two 10s. I'm thinking a 4-3-3 with a attacking central midfielder just inside and behind to overload the space whilst our right back stays deeper. I'm wondering if anyone has set up anything similar?

[Johnny Ace]

14 hours ago, OJ403 said:

I've been following this thread without commenting, but it really is a fantastic bit of work! I would suggest that the principles discussed are one of the best ways to create tactics in any formation/style, not just the 4-3-3. 

Thank you 

It's how I try and think when putting together a tactic, the way I put together a 4-2-3-1 DM is very similar. I'll use the DM's as cover for the Wingbacks, then if I'm asking more from the DMs, I'll use a more covering role in the fullback position. The AI do very similar too 

The same with strike partnerships, I always go back to a 4-4-2, number 9 and number 10. 9 the primary goalscorer, the number 10 more of a creator scorer. It's why I don't tend to pair an IF(A) with AF(A)

14 hours ago, OJ403 said:

How would people look to set up a 4-3-3, or indeed any similar shapes (4-2-3-1 and the like), with deeper full backs as seems to be the trend today? 

There's a fair few on here that use a FB(S), I never use D duties in the fullback positions really, I know what I'm getting with S and A duties, but I can't see why a WB(D) couldn't be used instead 

14 hours ago, OJ403 said:

We've typically bombed our right back forward to allow our AMR (currently Roony Bardghji) to come infield and operate as one of two 10s. I'm thinking a 4-3-3 with a attacking central midfielder just inside and behind to overload the space whilst our right back stays deeper. I'm wondering if anyone has set up anything similar?

Put something together and we'll have a look  

[Tsuru]

Hi @Johnny Ace I have been testing some of your creations here in my Brazilian save.

I have been absolutely in love with the Roaming Playmaker/Regista possession system. I have here a player that is a natural Roaming Playmaker so he fits it well and the system in general looks very good. It is solid although we don´t have a traditional holding midfielder, the two Fullbacks on Support seem to protect enough the defence and we have been very good at attacking.

I decided to start with simple PIs: Balanced mentality, Shorter Passing, Higher Tempo, Distribute to Centre Backs, Hold Shape, Higher Defensive Line and High Block. It is not a classical possession system (aka Barcelona´s Guardiola), I want my team to accelerate the game when necessary and I don´t want to restrict their options: if they need to kick the ball forward to the striker they can do it. And Higher Tempo guarantees we don´t slow the game too much.

As we are a small team, in some moments we will need to adopt different strategies, for example against much bigger opponents, at least until we are strong enough to always play the same way. But I like very much what I see in the field.

Another issue may be the Roaming PM: it is not so easy to find them in LLM. Do you think that the system would collapse without a Regista/Roaming PM or maybe another role (even with PIs) could do it? Or would you do any other changes without the two main roles of the system?

[Lasson]

I just had a quick thought. Would it make sense in the systems with no true holding midfielder, to have a stopper duty in the central defense to push up and close down that hole in front of the defense?

[Johnny Ace]

8 minutes ago, Tsuru said:

Another issue may be the Roaming PM: it is not so easy to find them in LLM. Do you think that the system would collapse without a Regista/Roaming PM or maybe another role (even with PIs) could do it? Or would you do any other changes without the two main roles of the system?

I think you'd lose his deep creativity and seeing as the Fullbacks are pretty bland, I'd rejig the roles without a REG/RPM

It all depends on which sort of DM role you can find for your team and what sort of players your fullbacks are. Like a DLP(S) maybe? A a bit more stable but still offering the creativity. But then I would move one of the Fullbacks or both to Attack but then you'd lose a bit of that deep possession retention 

14 minutes ago, Lasson said:

I just had a quick thought. Would it make sense in the systems with no true holding midfielder, to have a stopper duty in the central defense to push up and close down that hole in front of the defense?

I never have much luck with Stopper duties but something you could try out for sure 

[ejleal]

 

@Johnny Ace Have you ever paired a mezzala with a role other than a winger?  In my tactic, my IW is right footed because i wanted an hybrid IF/winger and was going great, but in the winter market i bought and left footed player for that position and he is getting very bad ratings (6.1/6.2) every time he plays. What would you think is best here? Change the mezzala (which is now on attack duty btw) to Cm (at) or add a PI like stay wider to the IW?

 

[Johnny Ace]

2 minutes ago, ejleal said:

@Johnny Ace Have you ever paired a mezzala with a role other than a winger?  In my tactic, my IW is right footed because i wanted an hybrid IF/winger and was going great, but in the winter market i bought and left footed player for that position and he is getting very bad ratings (6.1/6.2) every time he plays. What would you think is best here? Change the mezzala (which is now on attack duty btw) to Cm (at) or add a PI like stay wider to the IW?

I sure have!

One potential issue on the right is now you've inverted the Winger, there's no one offering any width. The FB(A) could be drifting infield and cramping the space for the IW and MEZZ, I'd just try a WB(S) instead of the FB(A) and see how it goes

Of course, your new guy could be settling in so may need more time but keep your eye on him for a few games and check the player stats for potential issues. 

[Tsuru]

1 hora atrás, Johnny Ace disse:

I think you'd lose his deep creativity and seeing as the Fullbacks are pretty bland, I'd rejig the roles without a REG/RPM

It all depends on which sort of DM role you can find for your team and what sort of players your fullbacks are. Like a DLP(S) maybe? A a bit more stable but still offering the creativity. But then I would move one of the Fullbacks or both to Attack but then you'd lose a bit of that deep possession retention 

Sometimes I think I overcomplicate it...why did I fell in love exactly with this one, in a topic with so many options and permutations? 

Maybe it is part of my prejudice and thoughts that a small team should use very simple tactics, which is not necessarily true. And I have been training different strategies for different kinds of match so I will probably be fine.

I will put my scouts to dig out RPMs and Registas around and I will look for them myself too, maybe I can find another good options or maybe a young player to be retrained. I think it will be much easier than trying to tweak and adjust a tactic that is exactly build around these roles.