Simple crafting of a 4-3-3 DM

[HanziZoloman]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Skywalk3r83:

Thanks for the suggestion! I'll look into it, i'm not a tactical genius so it's mostly trial and error but we will see.
Kane as DLFa and Son as an IFa?

Me neither but I improved a lot recently we’ll influenced by the stuff discussed here.

Yes Kane up front and Son from the side I believe that’s how I understood it from @Johnny Ace

[bababooey]

Here's how I approach the 4-3-3, in my most recent save w/ Dortmund.

We currently train two tactics, both utilizing the 4-3-3 DM shape, but with different approaches.

I don't like the idea of having a "home" or "away" tactic. I prefer to have different styles of play that could be used regardless of where the match is played, or who we're playing against.

That being said, our primary tactic is obviously going to be used more often, seeing as it is the primary tactic. 

 

Primary Tactic:  BvB 433 HP (high press) - possession focused football

- We use a positive mentality simply because I want us to take more risks than the balanced mentality would offer, but less than the attacking mentality would.

- The idea here is to build this tactic around a dominant central midfield triangle. For us, that's a combination of Bellingham, Khephrem Thuram, and Salih Ozcan. 

- We press high and aim to control games in the opponent's half.

- The DLF-A is a good striker choice here because he can spring forward into space when required, but will also help with the build up phase.

- The RPM is clearly the heartbeat of the team, and for us that's Jude Bellingham.

- Because this is a possession approach, I don't need either the AML or AMR to be on attack. Support works just fine.

- The WB-D on the left side is sort of an experiment. I think our midfield is plenty solid to change this role, but, I'm enjoying what I see so far.

- One thing we may look to change, is the width settings. You could make the case that this is too narrow.

 

Secondary Tactic:  BvB 433 MB - (aggressive countering mid block)

 

- Team mentality has been changed to balanced, this is simply due to wanting to take that level of risk in our play

- The shape has changed a bit by moving the DM into the CM strata. The reason for that, is we are playing an aggressive, compact mid-block. The goal is not to defend passively or be "defensive".  The goal is to aggressively engage our opponents in the middle of the pitch, win the ball back, and transition into the next phase of play. I find that using a DM-CM-CM triangle in a mid-block press makes it harder to win the ball back quickly. This also suits the players we have, so that's another reason why I made that adjustment.  YMMV.

- Ideally, we win the ball back, and then we've got willing runners to get in behind and on the end of a pass. That's why we use an AF & IF-A in the STC and AMR spots. The IW-S should help balance out the front trio with some creativity on the ball.

- In defense we've got with two supporting wing backs. This should enable us to make quicker transitions down the flanks.

-  I could change one of the center back to BDP, but I felt it was not necessary here

- The last thing I want to say about this, is that hopefully this approach will allow us to "shock" teams in the middle of a match. Let's say we're up 1-0, and the opponent starts to get much more attack-minded, well we can switch to this tactic to try and take advantage of the space they leave behind, etc.  That's the idea anyway!

 

 

[JoOSTAR]

8 minutes ago, bababooey said:

Here's how I approach the 4-3-3, in my most recent save w/ Dortmund.

We currently train two tactics, both utilizing the 4-3-3 DM shape, but with different approaches.

I don't like the idea of having a "home" or "away" tactic. I prefer to have different styles of play that could be used regardless of where the match is played, or who we're playing against.

That being said, our primary tactic is obviously going to be used more often, seeing as it is the primary tactic. 

 

Primary Tactic:  BvB 433 HP (high press) - possession focused football

- We use a positive mentality simply because I want us to take more risks than the balanced mentality would offer, but less than the attacking mentality would.

- The idea here is to build this tactic around a dominant central midfield triangle. For us, that's a combination of Bellingham, Khephrem Thuram, and Salih Ozcan. 

- We press high and aim to control games in the opponent's half.

- The DLF-A is a good striker choice here because he can spring forward into space when required, but will also help with the build up phase.

- The RPM is clearly the heartbeat of the team, and for us that's Jude Bellingham.

- Because this is a possession approach, I don't need either the AML or AMR to be on attack. Support works just fine.

- The WB-D on the left side is sort of an experiment. I think our midfield is plenty solid to change this role, but, I'm enjoying what I see so far.

- One thing we may look to change, is the width settings. You could make the case that this is too narrow.

 

Secondary Tactic:  BvB 433 MB - (aggressive countering mid block)

 

- Team mentality has been changed to balanced, this is simply due to wanting to take that level of risk in our play

- The shape has changed a bit by moving the DM into the CM strata. The reason for that, is we are playing an aggressive, compact mid-block. The goal is not to defend passively or be "defensive".  The goal is to aggressively engage our opponents in the middle of the pitch, win the ball back, and transition into the next phase of play. I find that using a DM-CM-CM triangle in a mid-block press makes it harder to win the ball back quickly. This also suits the players we have, so that's another reason why I made that adjustment.  YMMV.

- Ideally, we win the ball back, and then we've got willing runners to get in behind and on the end of a pass. That's why we use an AF & IF-A in the STC and AMR spots. The IW-S should help balance out the front trio with some creativity on the ball.

- In defense we've got with two supporting wing backs. This should enable us to make quicker transitions down the flanks.

-  I could change one of the center back to BDP, but I felt it was not necessary here

- The last thing I want to say about this, is that hopefully this approach will allow us to "shock" teams in the middle of a match. Let's say we're up 1-0, and the opponent starts to get much more attack-minded, well we can switch to this tactic to try and take advantage of the space they leave behind, etc.  That's the idea anyway!

 

 

 

Do you use any Player Instructions?

[bababooey]

2 hours ago, JoOSTAR said:

 

Do you use any Player Instructions?

Not at the moment, no

[bababooey]

A new season brings new changes and a tactical refresh!

The BVB 433 HP 2.0  (high press, pass and move football)

 

What do you all think of this set up? 

My idea here is to take full advantage of being able to distribute the jobs of the central midfielders among the DM-CM-CM triangle.

The CM-A is our runner, the DLP-S is our creator, and the DM-D is our destroyer. 

Outside of that, the back line is designed to help us make use of width because our forwards are both inverted.

The forward line is very much based around the idea of a "spearhead" attack.

As for player instructions, I have not set any because it's early in the summer and we don't yet know exactly how the squad will look.

One of the other interesting things here is the attempt to focus play down the left, but also underlap on the right side. The reason for this is simple. I want to create an overload.

Ideally, the WB-S or the IF-S would look for opportunities to hold up the ball and then release it to the CM-A driving forward.

[HanziZoloman]

In the YAC I'd tried to create a tactic against those challenging 4231 DM and came up with a simple 433. Do you have any suggestions anything that I have to keep an eye on anything that doesn't make sense?

[Johnny Ace]

Personally, in a 4-3-3 I don't like a "holding" role in central midfield, your Anchor already does the holding job in midfield so I feel the DLP is overkill. There's nothing to say it's right or wrong though, if you feel it works, stick with it @HanziZoloman

[coach vahid]

Il y a 2 heures, HanziZoloman a dit :

In the YAC I'd tried to create a tactic against those challenging 4231 DM and came up with a simple 433. Do you have any suggestions anything that I have to keep an eye on anything that doesn't make sense?

And if you play with a fullback support on the left side, it will offer you a better cover behind the inside forward. But it's just an opinion, of course. And it makes me think on a set up for a great "Nike Defense"...

Edited September 4, 2023 by coach vahid
Forgot a word

[bababooey]

On 02/09/2023 at 17:02, bababooey said:

A new season brings new changes and a tactical refresh!

The BVB 433 HP 2.0  (high press, pass and move football)

 

What do you all think of this set up? 

My idea here is to take full advantage of being able to distribute the jobs of the central midfielders among the DM-CM-CM triangle.

The CM-A is our runner, the DLP-S is our creator, and the DM-D is our destroyer. 

Outside of that, the back line is designed to help us make use of width because our forwards are both inverted.

The forward line is very much based around the idea of a "spearhead" attack.

As for player instructions, I have not set any because it's early in the summer and we don't yet know exactly how the squad will look.

One of the other interesting things here is the attempt to focus play down the left, but also underlap on the right side. The reason for this is simple. I want to create an overload.

Ideally, the WB-S or the IF-S would look for opportunities to hold up the ball and then release it to the CM-A driving forward.

 

So an update on this tactic lol.  I would *not* recommend this unless your team is far and away one of the best in the world, and certainly the best in your division. Otherwise, you're gonna have a bad time getting slammed on the counter. 

[Shippy]

I cannot get a consistent run of form with a 433.

Conceding a ton a shot on goal every game, teams cut through me at ease and pretty much only scoring from set pieces.

had what I thought was a decent transfer window but 3 losses from 4 games is not the start I expected.

tactic wise I’m pretty much using the “spearhead” 433 on positive, POOD, slightly narrow, counter, distribute to CB and a mid block with higher defensive line and drop off more, close down more often.

Am I missing something really obvious?!

TIA

(line up in the picture is not my actual starting 11)

[Johnny Ace]

6 hours ago, Shippy said:

tactic wise I’m pretty much using the “spearhead” 433 on positive, POOD, slightly narrow, counter, distribute to CB and a mid block with higher defensive line and drop off more, close down more often.

Am I missing something really obvious?!

Of your TIs the Drop Off More stands out as it doesn't seem to tie up with the rest, unless you have your reasons that would be the first one I would remove. 

[Shippy]

45 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Of your TIs the Drop Off More stands out as it doesn't seem to tie up with the rest, unless you have your reasons that would be the first one I would remove. 

I started using it towards the end of last season and it seemed to make it abit more defensively solid.

[iwb]

I started using this tactic after the draw in the first match and it worked better than I expected.

[Johnny Ace]

Nice @iwb!! The PF(D) setup was a lot of fun and I was surprised at how many the PF(D) would score, can see there your's is on 3 out of 3 

 

1 hour ago, Shippy said:

I started using it towards the end of last season and it seemed to make it abit more defensively solid.

Okay, how's the Cohesion and Familiarity etc? Your setup is pretty much the same as one I used for years and it was fine, the only major difference was the Drop Off

[iwb]

@Johnny Ace I continue to have fun with the tactic. The footage is from a league match. Despite the high tempo, we are playing a possession game and the striker has a lot to do with that. My only complaint is that the striker tires almost to the point where he can't finish the game. Because he runs too much.

[Johnny Ace]

Yeah, he does a heck of a lot of back tracking @iwb

[bababooey]

I think my new favorite central midfield combination is:  DLP-S / MEZ-S / DM-D   Very simple, very effective!  It sort of morphs into a DM-DM-CM when transitioning to the attacking phase.

In terms of average positions, the MEZ-S tends to sit quite close to the AMR on his side when in possession.  When out of possession, the MEZ-S actually slots in perfectly into central midfield alongside the DLP-S, and in front of the DM.

[Cloud9]

6 hours ago, bababooey said:

I think my new favorite central midfield combination is:  DLP-S / MEZ-S / DM-D   Very simple, very effective!  It sort of morphs into a DM-DM-CM when transitioning to the attacking phase.

In terms of average positions, the MEZ-S tends to sit quite close to the AMR on his side when in possession.  When out of possession, the MEZ-S actually slots in perfectly into central midfield alongside the DLP-S, and in front of the DM.

Would be careful of 2 holding midfielder in a 4-3-3. Might find more success in a 4-2-3-1 w/ a setup like this?

In possession two holders cuts your ability to transition the ball  and can create a lopsided pivot.

Like the idea of two hard working 8's, Mez(s) + CM(s)/BWM(s)/CAR might give you more dynamic 3 while keeping w/your principles 

Edited September 7, 2023 by Cloud9

[Cloud9]

On 04/09/2023 at 16:49, Shippy said:

I cannot get a consistent run of form with a 433.

Conceding a ton a shot on goal every game, teams cut through me at ease and pretty much only scoring from set pieces.

had what I thought was a decent transfer window but 3 losses from 4 games is not the start I expected.

tactic wise I’m pretty much using the “spearhead” 433 on positive, POOD, slightly narrow, counter, distribute to CB and a mid block with higher defensive line and drop off more, close down more often.

Am I missing something really obvious?!

TIA

(line up in the picture is not my actual starting 11)

Think you just don't have the pace in your backline to run a high line, would drop it back to standard (esp w/both fullbacks roles as wingbacks). I'd consider having Bisaka sit as a FB(s) since Grimaldo is basically a winger (even more so on WB(a) and will keep him in position to address the CB speed issue. 

Drop off more can be a strong choice, but I like using it w/out telling the boys to trigger press & in a formation that's more defensively resolute (4-4-2 for example). That way you can keep your defensive shape and absorb pressure.

However, w/such attacking wide players (rashford/sancho), you don't have players you can rely on to soak up pressure. I'd usually ask the wingers  to mark tighter, and then set the TI to funnel the play through the center where the three midfielders are. W/out appropriate players for such a hard hitting approach, you might want to open up the width to take advantage of rashfords pace and stick him on attack. Taremi is likely too slow to lead your frontline, so you might just want to run Rashford through the middle instead. That gives you the option of bringing in a defensively responsible LW who will balance out better with Grimaldo. 

Adding "pass into space" can help as well. Final note, Bruno is a quite a flair player and a bit of a liability as a BBM. IRL he's played as almost a second striker for United, offering 0 defensive contribution and lots of whining. That can be a real problem in a mid block counter, so you might consider moving to the 4-2-3-1 to give him that free role. 

Edited September 7, 2023 by Cloud9

[Shippy]

On 07/09/2023 at 07:32, Cloud9 said:

Think you just don't have the pace in your backline to run a high line, would drop it back to standard (esp w/both fullbacks roles as wingbacks). I'd consider having Bisaka sit as a FB(s) since Grimaldo is basically a winger (even more so on WB(a) and will keep him in position to address the CB speed issue. 

Drop off more can be a strong choice, but I like using it w/out telling the boys to trigger press & in a formation that's more defensively resolute (4-4-2 for example). That way you can keep your defensive shape and absorb pressure.

However, w/such attacking wide players (rashford/sancho), you don't have players you can rely on to soak up pressure. I'd usually ask the wingers  to mark tighter, and then set the TI to funnel the play through the center where the three midfielders are. W/out appropriate players for such a hard hitting approach, you might want to open up the width to take advantage of rashfords pace and stick him on attack. Taremi is likely too slow to lead your frontline, so you might just want to run Rashford through the middle instead. That gives you the option of bringing in a defensively responsible LW who will balance out better with Grimaldo. 

Adding "pass into space" can help as well. Final note, Bruno is a quite a flair player and a bit of a liability as a BBM. IRL he's played as almost a second striker for United, offering 0 defensive contribution and lots of whining. That can be a real problem in a mid block counter, so you might consider moving to the 4-2-3-1 to give him that free role. 

Thank you for the advice. I’ve since tried to go back to basics but keep some of the advice given here on this thread.

playing on Balanced mentality

Play out of defence, more expressive.

counter press

high press, more often and standard back line.

                sk

wb(s) cd(d) cd(d) wb(s)

               Dlp(d)

           Cm(s) cm(s)

if(s)                       Iw(a)

            Af/pf(a)

 

had some really good results (currently 12 unbeaten in the league) and sitting back at the top of the league. The most difficult games are the teams the park the bus!

[Christopher S]

On 15/07/2023 at 12:19, Bellyfish said:

It was mentioned earlier in the thread, but I wanna say I'm suprised how effective the 'generic' roles can be when setup right with PIs.

This is my current setup that's dominating all competitions. I don't think I've ever used a Full Back defend before, figured it was too negative. However I've told him to specifically mark any AMLs and he currently has the most interceptions for my team.

Its the same with the DM support, I'd default throw in a DLP or half back usually. Yet he does exactly what I need him to do with this role: shields the defence, provides passing options and progresses the ball without being too fancy

This threads been really eye-opening for me to keep it simple when building a tactic.

Curious; what TI's did you pair this up with?

[Aoyao]

What about this tactics?

Edited September 24, 2023 by Aoyao

[Johnny Ace]

For City, you could probably use almost anything @Aoyao, I'd maybe have Grealish as a Winger(S) as City do use width and I think you need some width in any tactic. With any tactic, I'll say give it a try, make note of how it plays, attacks and defends, write down notes if you have to 

[Bootch]

Hey @Johnny Ace I notice you prefer to include an IW and a IF combination with your wide attackers combined with a support and attack duty with your full backs. What are you thoughts about using IW(S) on both wings and FB(A) at the back? Not sure if i've missed it but I don't think it's been covered on this thread. I always find it's good for overloads but keeps you defensively sound.

Great thread by the way!

[Johnny Ace]

1 hour ago, Bootch said:

Hey @Johnny Ace I notice you prefer to include an IW and a IF combination with your wide attackers combined with a support and attack duty with your full backs. What are you thoughts about using IW(S) on both wings and FB(A) at the back? Not sure if i've missed it but I don't think it's been covered on this thread. I always find it's good for overloads but keeps you defensively sound.

Great thread by the way!

I like a bit of variation on both flanks mate but nothing wrong with that at all 

[BatigoalFM]

Thank you @Johnny Ace for this thread and for all that you can offer with such passion, heart and kindness on this forum!
Being unusual, it was important for me to write about it.
Not forgetting the other contributors, without whom this thread and the forum would not be as rich.
Gennaro Gattuso arrives at Olympique de Marseille following Marcelino's premature departure.
He did his first training session in 433 and will start his first league match tomorrow.
I'm going to take a closer look at the thread in its entirety, to try and get you thinking about a tactical recreation of this coach at this club.
I look forward to hearing from you  

[Johnny Ace]

You're welcome @Batigoal__

Give the game a watch and chuck an idea together, I'll have a look 

[hotredabyss]

How the Gets Further Forward PI affects you midfield trio on you guys opinion? I like having one of my midfielders doing runs and being basically a AM(A) but im seeing ticking that player instruction on makes them go too early so the midfield trio get messed up...i wanted for him to being close to the other 2 in build up and then as soon as the ball is moved he goes close to the box to deliver a pass or shoot. The AP(A) sadly is playing kinda like an enganche ( he's actually doing great passes every game but it's really not what i want... ). I thought about using a Mezzala(S) in the other side and a IWGB(S) as i also have a Winger(A) on that same flank, but then i lose a safe pass option, the flank gets too exposed and the solid and stable mid trio is also gone ( I also don't have any good players to be used as the inverted wing-back lol  )

Im pretty much using the same base @Johnny Acegave me some weeks ago but with a IF(S), a PF(A) or CF(A), and sometimes a Half Back in the DM ( It's the french third division but it actually works! Kinda, tbh, most of my dms are more of DLP-esque than a BWM/DM type )

obs: I want to use my Winger on Attack as much as possible and give him the "Roam from position" as my best academy players are Wingers with good flair and technique, and i believe that is the same reason they're being so crucial for my team perfomance, so if preferrable any suggestion maintaning the attacking mentality is a bonus  )

[hotredabyss]

Em 24/09/2023 em 06:07, Aoyao disse:

What about this tactics?

As Johnny said, it's City so pretty much anything will work, but i found using wide players such as Grealish and Foden as W(A) with "Roam from position" using their inverted foot ( i.e a player whose best foot is the left playing on the right flank ) sooooo good, i would use it there

[hotredabyss]

Em 12/08/2023 em 10:22, Lasson disse:

I'm possibly addicted to creating and playing around with tactics in this game. This is my new 4-3-3 variant with an attempt to make some sort of box midfield implementing a IWBs on the left hand side. Ws on the left and WBa on the right are tasked with keeping the width on the sides while the IWBs and IFs goes on adventures on the inside.

Which TI's? 

[Lasson]

8 hours ago, hotredabyss said:

Which TI's? 

Since then, I have made some tweaks to the 4-3-3. I'm now running with this setup:

The TI's are as follows:

This pretty much gives me a 2-3-5 in the build up as can be seen here:

[llama3]

On 01/10/2023 at 06:46, Lasson said:

Since then, I have made some tweaks to the 4-3-3. I'm now running with this setup:

The TI's are as follows:

This pretty much gives me a 2-3-5 in the build up as can be seen here:

Massive fan of the Winger (A) on one flank, with IF(S) on the other, aggressively overlapping. 

[Adonalsium]

The way I craft a 4-3-3, I like a 2-3-5 shape in possession and I love midfielders. So the way I cram as many midfielders as possible into my system while playing a 4-3-3 is with the following shape: 

The two defenders form a narrow base and the Regista combines very nicely with the inverted wing-backs to then form a bank of three in possession.

The following passmap is very common: 

Build-up shape from a goal-kick below. You'll see one of the Central Midfielders has dropped deep while the other has pushed up. Inverted Wingbacks are wide options, allowing us to play out very easily.

In possession, you already see the loose 2-3-5 forming:

A common sequence in possession. Players overload one side of the pitch (notice the 4-on-3 in a tight space, leaving a spare man to pick out a switch of play to the other flank), and often the Central Midfielder (#8) on the other side of the pitch is left free to run into space behind. Many goals are scored this way.

One final screenie. I just like how this set-up creates situations where we often outnumber a back four 5-to-4. 

This one's very similar to some others posted here but I like the simplicity of two central midfielders on attack. If I could have two ball-winning midfielders on attack, though, I'd replace them with those, haha. I just love a good BWM. The best middle ground is to just to tell your central midfielders to close down more often.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Adonalsium

[coach vahid]

il y a une heure, Adonalsium a dit :

The way I craft a 4-3-3, I like a 2-3-5 shape in possession and I love midfielders. So the way I cram as many midfielders as possible into my system while playing a 4-3-3 is with the following shape: 

The two defenders form a narrow base and the Regista combines very nicely with the inverted wing-backs to then form a bank of three in possession.

The following passmap is very common: 

Build-up shape from a goal-kick below. You'll see one of the Central Midfielders has dropped deep while the other has pushed up. Inverted Wingbacks are wide options, allowing us to play out very easily.

In possession, you already see the loose 2-3-5 forming:

A common sequence in possession. Players overload one side of the pitch (notice the 4-on-3 in a tight space, leaving a spare man to pick out a switch of play to the other flank), and often the Central Midfielder (#8) on the other side of the pitch is left free to run into space behind. Many goals are scored this way.

One final screenie. I just like how this set-up creates situations where we often outnumber a back four 5-to-4. 

This one's very similar to some others posted here but I like the simplicity of two central midfielders on attack. If I could have two ball-winning midfielders on attack, though, I'd replace them with those, haha. I just love a good BWM. The best middle ground is to just to tell your central midfielders to close down more often.

Just a few questions:

Why do you use an inverted wing back on defend on the right and not like the left?

The overloap on each side, it's for the inverted wing back or the cma's ?

Great post by the way.

[Adonalsium]

On support or defend, I haven't noticed a great difference in the inverted wing backs. But I like having at least one more defend duty there. If you're by and far the best side in the league, by all means put him on Support duty though.

The overlap is just to coax the inverted wing backs to station themselves slightly higher up the pitch on average and give them a more attacking mentality.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Adonalsium

[Rodpaco]

On 02/04/2023 at 08:59, Johnny Ace said:

One of the more popular shapes in football, I thought I’d craft together three 4-4-3 DMs and show my thought processes behind the choice of roles and duties for each one

I’m not going to include Team Instructions, they’re not intended as Plug and Play or anything, they’re not magic or anything fancy, just straight forward simple 4-3-3’s, feel free to use the ideas or use them as a base, the idea is they’re nice and balanced and follow simple logic

4-3-3 Number One- the out and striker

For when you have a great striker that excels in scoring goals, think a Man City 4-3-3 with Haaland

Starting with the back four, the straight forward option here is a pair of Central Defenders, a Ball-Playing Defender is a good option with a capable player to play out from the back. As I’ll have a DM as an easy option for the centre backs two plain Jane Central Defenders will be fine here.

I’ll be going with Wingbacks as I’ll have a defensive DM for cover and I’ll be inverting the wide attackers, so I see them as a good choice to get forward in those wide areas, stretch the opposition and provide crosses

 

For the DM slot, I do want a Defend duty role here so that narrows down the options, a Half Back would great for when we’re playing out from the back, a Deep Lying Playmaker would be a creative pick, an Anchor would be a solid and disciplined choice, a Defensive Midfielder would serve just fine, sitting in front of the backline and letting the Wingbacks forward

 

The two midfield “8’s” serve an important job to link, supply, cover and create. Both wingbacks will be getting forward, both wide attackers will be moving infield, I don’t need either of these two trying to get too far forward and piling into the box. If they did that, they might break too far away from the DM and create a huge chasm of space in the midfield which would cause us problems in build-up and transition. Two Central Midfielders on Support here would do the job but let’s have some fun.

A natural ball winner could help patrol the right hand side of midfield with the WB(A) on that flank. A BBM(S) on the left side of central midfield would help offer something different. BBMs like to surge between the boxes and roam, having the WB(S) on his side of the field would tie up nicely.

The Front three

The number 9, Football Manager gives plenty of choice here in terms of roles.

The available roles to most teams will be the Pressing Forward to lead the line and chase down centre backs out of possession, great for high pressing tactics. The Poacher to stay in the box and sniff out chances, little else and the Advanced Forward as a bit of an inbetween. As the full backs will be providing the team with crosses, a Target Forward could be a choice but in a 4-3-3 DM, I feel it’s a little one dimensional and would prefer a partner for the TF in the AMC or Striker position. The 

Complete Forward is an amazing striker role, he has to be a very well rounded player and won’t be as common amongst squads

From out wide on the right, we’ll have the Wing Back overlapping so we have options here that cut infield. He could be the focus as an Advanced Playmaker or Trequartista. I only have an attacking 3 though so I want him more focused on getting into the box to create and score and the Inside Forward is perfect for that. The Inside Forward is one of the more attacking roles from out wide, the way I see it, the IF on Attack is a primary goal scorer from wide like prime Mo Salah, he is the Inside Forward on Attack. An Inside Forward on Support here will still push forward, cut in, create and score but will have slightly more focus on supporting the striker over an Attack duty

For the opposite wing, I want a creative role again to help feed the number 9, again an Advanced Playmaker could be a great choice but it’s not very often you’ll be starting a managerial job with a player at your disposal capable of playing the role. Another Inside Forward on Support this side of the field might be too much and would mirror the flanks, so an Inverted Winger will do as needed

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Nice and simple, the line-up offers something different on both sides of the field, the roles (barring the Central Defenders) all have different tasks. The midfield work as a nice trio and will do a great job in covering central areas and getting the ball forward to the front 3. The Wingbacks give the team width, the right WB, the more attacking of the two and has cover on that side firstly from the BWM and secondly from the DM. The front 3 all have different jobs. AF score, IF create and score, IW create.

Great stuff!

The 4-3-3 is my favorite formation, I think it achieves the best balance in terms of providing both midfield control and width. Though I've also had a lot of success with the 4-4-1-1. I'd like to try the 3-4-2-1 too, as it's pretty popular in modern football and I think achieves a nice distribution of players offensively, but I generally feel kinda iffy about 3-at-the-back formations.

And, for all its popularity, I can't for the life of me make a 4-2-3-1 work properly. The 4-2-3-1 DM is just too disjointed and splits the team in half. The 4-2-3-1 with CMs I just see as a variant of the 4-4-1-1 where you're pushing your wingers higher up, fine in home games where you're much stronger than the opposition or when you're losing near the end, but I'd never use it in other situations.

I'd say both of your formations actually look more like Klopp's 4-3-3 (full-backs providing width, industrious midfield, and wingers tucking in) than Guardiola's. And just glancing at the thread it looks like everyone is playing with either both wingers tucking in (IF/IW/AP), or one pure winger (W) and the other one tucking in. The later is generally my preference as well when playing a 4-3-3, but I'm actually curious if someone's tried a variant with pure wingers on both sides. Something like this:

Either a 2-3 (with both FBs tucking in alongside the DM) or a 3-2 at the back (with one FB tucking in alongside the CBs, while the other tucks in higher up alongside the DM). Both wingers on the side of their strong foot, very much like traditional wingers (both with the Winger role). Then you'd have that 5-man frontline which is common in modern football, but with the wingers (rather than the full-backs) providing the width. While the CMs would almost play like inside forwards (in the original sense) and provide more options inside the box to receive the crosses from the wings. Making up for the lack of natural box presence in the 4-3-3 compared to, say, the classic 4-4-2 (where playing with traditional wingers on both sides was much more common due to the striker duo up front).

I'm not sure how to make it work, though. As it basically requires having the two CMs on attack duty, which generally isn't ideal. So I'm curious how you'd try setting something like this up.

EDIT: I somehow missed @Adonalsium's post! xD Nice job, that's exactly what I was looking for! Don't you have some defensive problems with the two CM's being on attack duty, though?

Edited October 14, 2023 by Rodpaco

[Brian]

Managing Celtic, I took the Gegenpress 4-3-3 preset tactic and tweaked it to my liking. 

Player roles

Player role changes

• Sweeper Keeper (At) becomes Sweeper Keeper (Su)
  • I don’t need my keeper to dribble more with two more than capable defenders in front of him that are comfortable on the ball to either dribble or give a pass.
• Wingback R (Su) becomes Fullback (Su)
  • I don’t want two backs that are aggressive. With the inside forward on one side instead of two, I want more support on the outside on the left side and a more stable approach on the right side (winger).
• Deep lying playmaker (Su) becomes Ball winning midfielder (Su)
  • Due to Celtic FC being the dominated force, I wanted to have a playmaker further across the field and a more defensive minded, ball winner ahead of my defence. Giving us more security when being countered. 
• Carrillo (Su) becomes Advanced playmaker (At)
  • We are the dominate side most of the games, so I want a playmaker in front of the pitch rather than on the back of the pitch. And with the Winger on support on the right side, they can link up nicely.
• Inside forward (At) becomes Winger (Su)
  • Having Liel Abada as a first team started and a very high potential, I wanted him on the first team. Two Inside forwards on attack seemed to aggressive, and with Abada having Hugs Line and Comes inside from both wings he can make the pitch wider, stretching the opposition who likes to sit deep to make a move or wait for the fullback. Otherwise, he can also cut inside when needed being left- and right footed.
• Pressing forward (At) becomes Advanced forward (At)
  • The pressing forward will look to score himself, while the advanced forward will also look to create chances for the inside forward, box-to-box midfielder, advanced playmaker and winger. This way I have a more systematic approach with multiple people able to create chances or score, rather than relying to much on the striker to score.
     

Team instruction changes

Removed:

• Extremely high tempo
• Distribute to centerbacks
• Counter Press
• Prevent short GK distribution

Added:

• Higher Tempo

 

Spoiler

 

Trophy's

• 1x Europa League
• 4x Scottish Premiere League
• 2x Scottish Cup
• 3x Scottish Leage Cup

Honorable mentions

• 2x Quarterfinal Champions League
• 1x Semifinal Champions League

 

Fifth season - Arsenal

At the beginning of my fifth season, I applied for the Arsenal job and got accepted! Probably going to explore some variations of the 4-3-3 because I will play a lot against the 4-2-3-1 in the Premiere League.

First thought of the 4-2-2-2, due to the quality in strikers (3 world-class strikers) and they still have Saka and Martinelli on the wing, but it was too offensive in pre-season. Leaving huge gaps in the midfield area. 

 

Will post another tactic when I've settled with a 4-3-3 at Arsenal, as that is going to be my main tactic (exploiting Saka, Martinelli, Odegaard and Sesko).

 

P.S. I still play FM22. 

Edited October 19, 2023 by Brian

[Lasson]

This is the shape I'm getting right now out of my 4-3-3. It's FM24.

[JoOSTAR]

14 minutes ago, Lasson said:

This is the shape I'm getting right now out of my 4-3-3. It's FM24.

What is your tactic like?

 

[Lasson]

With Wind as striker:

With Fer Niño as striker:

[Marshdweller]

I'm slowly working my way through this topic, but have one key question: has the game/match engine changed significantly enough that this wouldn't be applicable to older versions?

I have an ageing laptop so tend to play either FM15 or FM20. I know not all the roles in FM23 were available in either of those versions, but I assume the same principles apply.

[Brian]

Evolving and adapting the Celtic 4-3-3 to Arsenal

The main focus point is that in Scotland, I was the dominate side in every league match. In England however, I'm likely to be the dominated side in most matches, but the quality of the teams is far higher than in Scotland. The main focus to adapting in England is building more defensive stability. 

 

Player role changes

• Ball playing defender (L) (De) becomes Central Defender (L) (De)
  • There is no need to have two center backs playing with more risk. Losing the ball would be much worse in England than in Scotland. 
• Fullback (R) (Su) becomes Fullback (R) (De)
  • Having two wonderful fullbacks that are more defensive minded, I switched to a defensive fullback. This way he can sit narrow and look to create a back 3 when we attack or build-up play.
• Ball wining midfielder (Su) becomes Deep lying playmaker (De)
  • I want a player that sits in front of the defence, while looking to make plays out of the back. De DLP holds position on defence, while looking to make plays. This is also the most changed role in my new 4-3-3, as Partey is gifted in more areas.  When playing against a 4-2-3-1, he becomes a Halfback to create a back 4 against their 4-man press. When playing a 5-2-3, he sits in a open slot as a Deep lying playmaker looking to move the ball forwards quicker. 
• Advanced playmaker (At) becomes Central midfielder (At)
  • Already having a playmaker in front of my defence, I switched to a more attacking minded midfielder which I can change instructions to depending on the strength of the player. He sits around the same space as the Advanced playmaker, but having more freedom to play in that position. 
• Winger (Su) becomes Inverted winger (Su)
  • This is mostly because Arsenal still has Saka. It's a shame to keep a winger, when Saka is thát good. He will look to create plays with the Central midfielder. 

Team instruction changes

Added:

• Lower crosses
• Distribute Quickly

 

Spoiler

 

Adapting in game

The most used changes I make before a match is looking at which formation the opposition is likely to play and what there roles are. Here I make little tweaks in two area's. 

First area

Identifying where the space will be for my number 6 and where they are most likely to press. 

Second area

Because I know where the space will be, I changed the distribution from my Sweeper Keeper.

 

First match vs Watford (away)

When faced Watford my scout showed me in which formation Watford is likely to be playing. The would likely to be playing a 5-2-2-1. When we look at our tactical board, we can see where the space is going to be.

So I switched the distribution from my goalkeeper to Take short kicks and Distribute to wingback. 

When we looked at the player statistics, Kieran Tierney had the second best rating, played the second most key passes and creating the most clear cut changes. Also played the most crosses of the game. Due to a missed penalty and a lack of scoring, we still won 0-1 very easy.

 

Second games vs Everton

Everton, who surprisingly won on the opening day 2-0 against Manchester United, played a 4-2-3-1. Again, taking a look at the tactic board, we could see where my possibilities where. 

 

So I switched the distribution from my goalkeeper to Roll it out and Distribute to centerbacks and Partey from Deep lying playmaker to Halfback. Even if the number 10 looked to press the two defenders with their striker, there was always a centerback going to be free. When we looked at the player statistics, even though Scalvini is the Ball playing defender it was Gabriel who had a very good game from the back and Odegaard having a field day against their Ball winning midfielder.  

 

 

Overall I'm very happy with the evolving of the Celtic 4-3-3 to a Arsenal 4-3-3. Playing from the strength of my squad and utilizing space that the opposition give away. 

 

 

 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Brian
Removing images

[Christopher S]

On 19/10/2023 at 21:59, Lasson said:

With Wind as striker:

With Fer Niño as striker:

You care to share your Team Instructions and the likes?

[kennypavey]

It's FM24 and I'm trying to master transitions in a 4-3-3, but I can't seem to get it functioning the idea I want it to. The team is Sweden, which currently has:

• Average but industrious midfield 3 (Jens Cajuste, Hugo Larsson, Mattias Svanberg)
• Great attacking players in front 3 (Alexander Isak, Viktor Gyökeres, Jesper Karlsson, Dejan Kulusevski, Roony Bardghji etc.)
• "Standard" defenders (Quite traditional fullbacks in Augustinsson and Emil Holm, central defenders in Lindelöf and Hien/Ekdal/Starfelt).

My attacking players are almost all at their best with the ball at their feet running at the defense in quick transitions, so my basic idea is:

• Out of possession, drop a bit (mid-block) and then try to win the ball (trigger press more often).
• When winning the ball first option should always be to launch front 3 in space.
  • Full backs support
  • Midfield mainly for ball-winning and recycling, but players like Svanberg might pop-up late in penalty box

Generally I prefer defensively solid tactics, and I rather win 1-0 and 4-2. Unfortunately, the latter is how I currently seem to be winning.

Another issue is against much weaker opponents everything seems to be a bit hasty. I still want the counter to be the first option, but we need to be more patient when that is not an option.

Can anyone see where I am going wrong here?

[dannyfc]

14 hours ago, kennypavey said:

It's FM24 and I'm trying to master transitions in a 4-3-3, but I can't seem to get it functioning the idea I want it to. The team is Sweden, which currently has:

• Average but industrious midfield 3 (Jens Cajuste, Hugo Larsson, Mattias Svanberg)
• Great attacking players in front 3 (Alexander Isak, Viktor Gyökeres, Jesper Karlsson, Dejan Kulusevski, Roony Bardghji etc.)
• "Standard" defenders (Quite traditional fullbacks in Augustinsson and Emil Holm, central defenders in Lindelöf and Hien/Ekdal/Starfelt).

My attacking players are almost all at their best with the ball at their feet running at the defense in quick transitions, so my basic idea is:

• Out of possession, drop a bit (mid-block) and then try to win the ball (trigger press more often).
• When winning the ball first option should always be to launch front 3 in space.
  • Full backs support
  • Midfield mainly for ball-winning and recycling, but players like Svanberg might pop-up late in penalty box

Generally I prefer defensively solid tactics, and I rather win 1-0 and 4-2. Unfortunately, the latter is how I currently seem to be winning.

Another issue is against much weaker opponents everything seems to be a bit hasty. I still want the counter to be the first option, but we need to be more patient when that is not an option.

Can anyone see where I am going wrong here?

If you're scoring goals but the issue is defensive stability, I think something as simple as changing the DM(s) to an Anchor role could help give the defence more protection. Only two defensive roles is very attacking.  What type of goals are you conceding? 

Edited October 22, 2023 by dannyfc

[Skywalk3r83]

On 20/10/2023 at 12:07, Brian said:

Evolving and adapting the Celtic 4-3-3 to Arsenal

The main focus point is that in Scotland, I was the dominate side in every league match. In England however, I'm likely to be the dominated side in most matches, but the quality of the teams is far higher than in Scotland. The main focus to adapting in England is building more defensive stability. 

 

Player role changes

• Ball playing defender (L) (De) becomes Central Defender (L) (De)
  • There is no need to have two center backs playing with more risk. Losing the ball would be much worse in England than in Scotland. 
• Fullback (R) (Su) becomes Fullback (R) (De)
  • Having two wonderful fullbacks that are more defensive minded, I switched to a defensive fullback. This way he can sit narrow and look to create a back 3 when we attack or build-up play.
• Ball wining midfielder (Su) becomes Deep lying playmaker (De)
  • I want a player that sits in front of the defence, while looking to make plays out of the back. De DLP holds position on defence, while looking to make plays. This is also the most changed role in my new 4-3-3, as Partey is gifted in more areas.  When playing against a 4-2-3-1, he becomes a Halfback to create a back 4 against their 4-man press. When playing a 5-2-3, he sits in a open slot as a Deep lying playmaker looking to move the ball forwards quicker. 
• Advanced playmaker (At) becomes Central midfielder (At)
  • Already having a playmaker in front of my defence, I switched to a more attacking minded midfielder which I can change instructions to depending on the strength of the player. He sits around the same space as the Advanced playmaker, but having more freedom to play in that position. 
• Winger (Su) becomes Inverted winger (Su)
  • This is mostly because Arsenal still has Saka. It's a shame to keep a winger, when Saka is thát good. He will look to create plays with the Central midfielder. 

Team instruction changes

Added:

• Lower crosses
• Distribute Quickly

 

  Hide contents

 

Adapting in game

The most used changes I make before a match is looking at which formation the opposition is likely to play and what there roles are. Here I make little tweaks in two area's. 

First area

Identifying where the space will be for my number 6 and where they are most likely to press. 

Second area

Because I know where the space will be, I changed the distribution from my Sweeper Keeper.

 

First match vs Watford (away)

When faced Watford my scout showed me in which formation Watford is likely to be playing. The would likely to be playing a 5-2-2-1. When we look at our tactical board, we can see where the space is going to be.

So I switched the distribution from my goalkeeper to Take short kicks and Distribute to wingback. 

When we looked at the player statistics, Kieran Tierney had the second best rating, played the second most key passes and creating the most clear cut changes. Also played the most crosses of the game. Due to a missed penalty and a lack of scoring, we still won 0-1 very easy.

 

Second games vs Everton

Everton, who surprisingly won on the opening day 2-0 against Manchester United, played a 4-2-3-1. Again, taking a look at the tactic board, we could see where my possibilities where. 

 

So I switched the distribution from my goalkeeper to Roll it out and Distribute to centerbacks and Partey from Deep lying playmaker to Halfback. Even if the number 10 looked to press the two defenders with their striker, there was always a centerback going to be free. When we looked at the player statistics, even though Scalvini is the Ball playing defender it was Gabriel who had a very good game from the back and Odegaard having a field day against their Ball winning midfielder.  

 

 

Overall I'm very happy with the evolving of the Celtic 4-3-3 to a Arsenal 4-3-3. Playing from the strength of my squad and utilizing space that the opposition give away. 

 

 

 

Do you use player instructions?

[Brian]

2 hours ago, Skywalk3r83 said:

Do you use player instructions?

Yea, just a few. 

• IW have Stay Wider
• AM have Roam from Position
• FB(R) have Sit Narrower
• BPD(De) have Stay Wider

[kennypavey]

8 hours ago, dannyfc said:

If you're scoring goals but the issue is defensive stability, I think something as simple as changing the DM(s) to an Anchor role could help give the defence more protection. Only two defensive roles is very attacking.  What type of goals are you conceding? 

The main issue seems to be the transitions ironically. My pressing doesn't seem to work at all, and opponents just pass through and have a good opportunity on goal, and when I get possession (often further back than I want) the players just squander it, leaving to a dangerous transition the other way.

Most of my attacking play seem to be against a set defense and most of my defending seems to be chaotic transitions, which is the opposite of what I want... 

[josel15]

Reviving this thread to ask for help.

@Johnny Ace, what do you think about this?

My idea is to have the IF(s) - Di Maria or Neres - as the main creative force on the wing. A PF on attack to attack the space and be a threat all around. I've put an IW (at) because my wingers tend to be fast and I want to them to explore space while still giving some width in a first stage. I think the defence is fine. Midfield is killing me, tho. The games I've played I had a lot of possession but the IF was always bad and didn't see any creativity from the team, especially the midfield, which is very good for the Portuguese League and even to do good stuff in Europe.

What you would do?
 

Spoiler

 

 

[Johnny Ace]

Looks alright all round @josel15

I'd still make a few changes though

I'd go double Wingbacks on Support seeing as both wide forwards cut inside. A FB(A) may drift infield and you'll lose width on the right

The IF(S) is an aggressive role, probably a 50/50 split on scoring/creating, I'd mix up the frontline a bit and seeing Di Maria, you have an excellent creator from wide. IW(A) is also pretty aggressive, so I'd drop him down to Support, something like this:

Then if you're rotating Di Maria out, use an IF(S) instead of the AP(A)

It's similar to this one but with a BBM/WB(S) instead of the BMW/WB(A)

Your TIs look possession based but I think Work Ball into Box is a bit much, I'll really not a fan of that TI 

In Transition and Out of Possession look nice and snappy, just tone those down a little if they cause you issues