Becoming The Dice Manager - In which aspects of the game does AI perform the worst?

[danej]

I ask because I feel like the game is too easy. I am experimenting with variuos tweaks to my playing style in order to make the saves more challenging. Perhaps the main areas to focus on are those where you typically excel as a human manager compared to the AI-led teams.

 

From the brilliant thread below I get the impression that the aspects of the game where AI underperforms include:

1. Morale managing. Once you understand the basics, it is incredibly easy to build and maintain a sky high morale. When I look at AI led teams, they usually seem to have a more mediocre morale, lots of the players usually have their morale in the yellowish area.
2. Squad building. AI led teams usually do a poor job getting good value for money when buying and selling players. Buy too expensively, sell/release too cheaply, don't sign enough young, undervalued players. As a human manager, you may need to implement aspects from the DoF-challenge in order to not overperform too much on this front. Or other similar tweaks.
3. Tactics. AI often uses inferior tactics, mediocre non-high pressing tactics. You may need to do the same yourself in order to not overperform. Personally I love the Gegenpress though. I have tried other tactics and to me they all look ugly and/or boring. So personally I will probably stick with a Gegenpress tactics but experiment with more extreme restrictions in other areas of the game. Personally I hope that Gegenpress will receive a heavy nerf in the future, it is still very OP if you rotate enough and use your subs to keep the squad fresh. Speaking of this, AI led teams don't seem to rotate well, so their key players get knackered throughout the season. But that may be a minor thing that doesn't warrant a separate mention.
4. Training schedules
5. Set pieces instructions
6. Recruiting staff

 

I am considering implementing even more save restrictions than I already use (which include delegating most to staff, including most related to the points mentioned above). My goal - as SergeiG also seem to share in the brilliant thread below - is to perform on par or marginally better with whichever team I manage. On par with board expectations. Perform realistically, so that there is a real risk of getting sacked. At the same time I don't like implementing unrealistic restrictions like only buying players form a certain country, youth challenge etc., I appreciate realism. I basically want the game to feel like if I was the real life manager of the given team. So far I haven't cracked that code. I am still searching for restrictions/tweaks that yield the desired mediocre performance without losing the feel of realism.

 

Or even more fun - I may become The Dice Manager (inspired by the great book "The Dice Man"). Rolling dice regarding various stuff, such as many player interactions and team meetings. Thus regularly messing things up by picking non-succesful options. At this moment in time I think this style is most likely what I will implement. It seems appealing to get varying, inconsistent performances. Such as things usually are in real life football, where you could do well, but things could derail at every given moment, like for example it did for Liverpool, Everton and Leicester this season, and for my belowed Danish side AaB (Aalborg BK) who got relegated for the first time since the 80's.

 

Btw, as dannyfc and rp1966 rightly point out on page 2 in the thread below, I understand that it is hard, perhaps impossible, for SI to make the game more difficult and challenging. There seems to be many hindrances to developing a tougher AI without at the same time upsetting a large proportion of the customers.

 

That is why I made this thread and hope to get input. It is probably more pragmatic and constructive to take responsibility myself and to keep experimenting with various restrictions and styles of playing the game in order to see what I find personally enjoyable. I doubt that SI will "fix the game" so that I would enjoy it without heavy restrictions and tweaking in the playing style in order to achieve the desired level of difficulty.

 

That being said, I feel like the game has steadily improved over the years. There now seems to be more options for personal tweaking than there was before (what you delegate to staff among other things).

 

On the other hand, a Civ-like difficulty setting with artificial boosts to the AI may be a way to go as several suggest in the thread below. But that topic seems to have been discussed extensively for years. So far SI don't wish to look at that (and the majority of the player base I assume). I guess they have their reasons. In any case I am not sufficiently experienced at the game to form an opinion on this yet, have only been playing FM for a couple of years (and some Championshp Manager back in the day).

 

 

[enigmatic]

Transfers are one of the most obvious human advantages to delegate. Not only does it have a large effect, it's something the manager generally does delegate (especially negotiations) in modern football, whereas they absolutely do plan training. Relatively easy to randomise whether you let the DoF sign a player or not too!

 

But if your tactics are overpowered, it doesnt matter how much you delegate training and abstain from praising players or even delegate transfers, your team will overperform expectations.

IMO gegenpress doesn't look that attractive in the ME (particularly not the characteristic Human User gegenpress which pairs it with more players making forward runs than the opposition has defenders to overpower them by weight of numbers). If you like high tempo, you can always turn the pressing down to let the opposition have possession. But the slower tempo, balanced team shape, sit back more in defence stuff that's perfectly workable but generally less effective looks more like a simulation of real football.

[danej]

1 hour ago, enigmatic said:

But if your tactics are overpowered, it doesnt matter how much you delegate training and abstain from praising players or even delegate transfers, your team will overperform expectations.

IMO gegenpress doesn't look that attractive in the ME (particularly not the characteristic Human User gegenpress which pairs it with more players making forward runs than the opposition has defenders to overpower them by weight of numbers). If you like high tempo, you can always turn the pressing down to let the opposition have possession. But the slower tempo, balanced team shape, sit back more in defence stuff that's perfectly workable but generally less effective looks more like a simulation of real football.

Great ideas, thanks

[GIMN]

2 hours ago, enigmatic said:

it's something the manager generally does delegate (especially negotiations) in modern football

To build on this further; clubs hire Directors of Football (or whatever term they choose to use) specifically to deal with that.  It's not a case of the manager delegating, as it just not being in their remit at all.  Of course a healthy relationship would see the manager and DoF working in tandem...you'd hope.

[danej]

Yeah. Speaking purely real life realism, at leaving aside however one subjectively prefers to play the game - I don't know of any real life managers who micro manage transfers. Not even old school managers in English football. Not a single manager negotiates salaries or wages I think, and barely noone cares the fee or wage is for a potential player in or out. At least not beyond immensely broad strokes related to the impact of the potential transfer of the remaining budget for wages and fees.

So it certainly seems more realistic to at most have a partial say in potential transfers in and out. And probably not dealing with detailed negotiation at all. Perhaps at most some sort of veto right, being able to veto a negotiated deal ready to being finalised.

On a sidenote, I am obviously still searching for my personal answer to the million dollar question: How do I prefer to play the game? What play style is the most enjoyable for me? Don't know if I will ever find an answer. It is a hugely complex issue, so many aspects of playing style that can possibly be tweaked, in so many ways. But it doesn't matter, I am beginning to realise that the journey is interesting in itself.

It is easy, and perhaps not unfair, to blame SI that the game is too easy, as has been done many times in the past including in the thread I mentioned in the OP. However, at the same time it's probably a battle not worth taking. And in any case it can be seen as quite as interesting challenge to search for the playing style that suits you personally. Finding a personally enjoyable playing style, with the right level of challenge, seems within our grasp as customers. The game isn't that bad. It may have its flaws, perhaps being too easy. But SI has also done good work over the years, I would think, expanding the options that one as a player has to individualise ones style of playing the game.

[jcafcwbb]

The two restrictions I put on myself is these:

1 - have my Director of Football handle recruitment. This means I do not use searches to find game breaking wunderkids. I only look at the players they put in my inbox. I will add transfer targets but let him try and seal the deal. 

2 - I do not add player instructions - apart from individual man marking if it becomes necessary. I just choose roles and mentality. Most of the super-tactics use a lot of player instructions. IRL I think you are lumbered with the players ability coupled with their mentality and you cannot change it with box-ticking. 

To add to that it would be nice to be able to tell a player how you want him to improve his game. I feel Guardiola has done a lot work on Grealish's teamwork. All we could is add that in the training focus but would like to be hold a player meeting on the same lines - is that possible. To tell a player he is only a sub because of his teamwork ethic?

Edited June 11, 2023 by jcafcwbb

[danej]

1 hour ago, jcafcwbb said:

The two restrictions I put on myself is these:

1 - have my Director of Football handle recruitment. This means I do not use searches to find game breaking wunderkids. I only look at the players they put in my inbox. I will add transfer targets but let him try and seal the deal. 

2 - I do not add player instructions - apart from individual man marking if it becomes necessary. I just choose roles and mentality. Most of the super-tactics use a lot of player instructions. IRL I think you are lumbered with the players ability coupled with their mentality and you cannot change it with box-ticking.

I do this too and much more (see link below which describes most of the restrictions I use, now it is even more). It feels like the biggest challenge in the game (once you understand the basics) is to find a way to play it that is both sufficiently challenging, and at the same time a way of playing that you personally enjoy. It feels like an ever present trap to fall into patterns where you end up being so succesful that it becomes predictable and boring.

Speaking of this, I like my new experiment where I deliberately mess up morale to varying extents. Both because I totally stopped doing standard players interactions such as praising good training, prasining man of the match, criticing bad traning, comfort injured players etc. And partially the dice rolling thing where I to some extent respond randomly and often stupidly in team talks and when players come to me with an issue like wanting higher wages. It feels so much fun so far. And feels more realistic. Real life management is erratic as well, performance goes up and down. This feels like replicating that. It feels realistic, fun, exciting that things can go well for quite a while, but at the same time that perfomance can fall off a cliff any time, and that crashing performance levels will happen from time to time.
 

[Dotsworthy]

On 10/06/2023 at 08:53, danej said:

Morale managing. Once you understand the basics, it is incredibly easy to build and maintain a sky high morale.

Morale is definitely an area that needs development. For newer players, it is too confusing to understand what each option means most of the time, while for players who understand the morale system it needs more complexity and is too easy to game the system. 

Praising training each week for 8 and above ratings is too powerful and I wouldn't be surprised if they nerfed it in a future version. 

I think SI have a very difficult job in balancing difficulty. They could have followed the civ model of adding modifiers (say like +1 to all attributes for ai against human players) but then that might make data hub statistics misleading which is an area of the game SI have worked hard on in recent years. Squad building is another area the AI do need to be better, but in real life teams botch their squad building (*cough* Man United). And the worst thing would be to have the top six in the prem remain completely static year on year with no rise and fall of teams.

[danej]

2 hours ago, Dotsworthy said:

Morale is definitely an area that needs development. For newer players, it is too confusing to understand what each option means most of the time, while for players who understand the morale system it needs more complexity and is too easy to game the system. 

Praising training each week for 8 and above ratings is too powerful and I wouldn't be surprised if they nerfed it in a future version. 

...

Squad building is another area the AI do need to be better, but in real life teams botch their squad building (*cough* Man United). And the worst thing would be to have the top six in the prem remain completely static year on year with no rise and fall of teams.

Very well said, spot on.

 

Regarding difficulty levels since you mention it: Personally I think civ-like difficulty levels might be preferable. It that existed I might never have felt the need to create a thread like this, and to put many hours into finding creative, but at the same time realistic ways to avoid massive overachievement. Anyway, I don't know the game well enough to really be able to call that one. Besides, at the end of the day money talks I guess. I assume that SI have reflected a lot on the topic of difficulty levels over the years. They might have their reasons to believe that the game will be sold to more customers in its current format instead of having civ-like difficulty levels. Perhaps a lot of players would lose the fun and satisfaction of doing well if they could only overachieve on lower difficulty levels.

Personally I try to not overachieve at all, or only marginally. I lose interest in a save when I know that it's only a matter of time before I win frequent Premier Leagues or Champions Leagues or whatever would in real life be considered a massive overachievement for the club that I manage at that point in time.

And the sad truth is that unless you play with a lot of restrictions, or become a Dice Manager or something, eventual succes is a foregone conclusion from day 1. It is so easy to graduately dominate the game more and more for each passing season. Because of inferior AI squad building etc. It really takes effort and creativity to maintain the same low long term level as AI led teams hehe. At least if you also want a feel of realism and don't bizarre save restrictions that have nothing to do with real life football.

Edited June 11, 2023 by danej

[danej]

Dice managing is working as well as I could possibly have hoped for. This feels like real life Man Utd.

[Platinum]

Transfers is the big one that can also be easily solved by SI implementing a realistic DoF feature/functionality. The board shouldn't have any expectations on the manager regarding players bought in/player sales. Currently you are so you can actually get sacked/get warned because the DoF didnt sign players in line with the boards expectations

[danej]

I don't think that transfers matter much in whether the board is pleased with you? I have often made totally different transfers than what the board wants and they never seem to care. The following summer they just switch their wishes to whatever type of transfers that are actually being made (whether by me of the DoF). I feel like that whole aspect has no real value, like it has little to no actual impact whether you meet the board's transfer target preferences or not.

Anyway, I am not sure that SI wants to fix transfers. Perhaps many who pay for the game get a kick out of feeling like transfer gurus, getting the big coup over the line. I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of the customers for this game are like that. And if so, like in most organizations I imagine there the people at the top of the SI hierarchy have a huge focus on the bottom line. And they will do whatever it takes to please the highest amount of customers possible.

This could also be why difficulty levels aren't introduced. It might feel less rewarding for a lot of those who play the game if they can only overachieve on lower difficulty levels.

In any case, I still love the game in spite of all its flaws. And it does feel possible to find a playing style that suits your personal preferences. The game has improved to that extent, so many more different ways to play the game now than e.g. CM 01/02 which I played a lot back in the day.

I just lost 2-1 at home to Sivasspor in the Europa League, followed by a 2-1 home defeat to Brentford in the league. I feel quite succesful in my quest to perform like real life Man Utd. I wonder how Fergie managed to perform so well a full 8 years after the Glazers came in. He surely deserves his knighthood. Performing well under the Glazers is an extraterrestial achievement.

Edited June 11, 2023 by danej

[Freakiie]

Well I've had certain boards constantly block transfers for me because it didn't suit their transfer preferences. Really fun with teams like Wolves, where you can't buy a player if it isn't a massively overpriced Portuguese player, while your finances are by no means great.

As for difficulty levels, since you asked about it, what would you even do? In CIV the AI doesn't get better, it just gets absurd bonuses. How would that work in FM though? We already have little issues beating teams better than us, so raw stats aren't going to do much. Not to mention the issue of, what if the stat boost would put a player above 200 CA or beyond 20 in a stat? Can the engine actually compute that? Lets say you boost Morale, what happens if that somehow boosts the AI into overconfidence and makes it even easier? On top of that, a lot of times (especially in the league) the bigger issue is the AI just not being as good as it should be against other AI. I've rolled the league plenty of times because my supposed competitors simply don't reach the point tallies they should. Difficulty levels wouldn't do anything there. Neither would they really help with things like squad building, squad rotation, player happiness and so on. Same goes for other stuff, lets say you give all the AIs way more money, but then the player just gets even more money from their transfers that they can use much better than the AI. Just like how in Civ the AI makes a ton of gold because of all their bonuses and then the player just sells them luxuries at exorbitant prices and ends up as the real winner.

As for challenge, why not go into the future on top of what you're doing. You'll have to deal with newgens (which I know isn't everyone's favorite thing in FM), where you can't just tell from your existing knowledge how good they are/will be, any squad you join will be ravaged by decades of AI squad building and your DoF now has twice the crappy players he can try signing for you as the database tends to expand quite a bit over time. Oh and then instead of the preset thing, use whatever tactic your assistant tells you is best for your squad and make it work. Might get lucky with a squad suited for 4-3-3 Gegenpress or you might have to make a 5-4-1 Catenaccio work. Or just grab a tactic you're not familiar with and try to make that your thing over the course of the save and then only agree to join teams that have squads suited to your tactic.

[danej]

On 12/06/2023 at 00:33, Freakiie said:

Well I've had certain boards constantly block transfers for me because it didn't suit their transfer preferences. Really fun with teams like Wolves, where you can't buy a player if it isn't a massively overpriced Portuguese player, while your finances are by no means great.

As for difficulty levels, since you asked about it, what would you even do? In CIV the AI doesn't get better, it just gets absurd bonuses. How would that work in FM though? We already have little issues beating teams better than us, so raw stats aren't going to do much. Not to mention the issue of, what if the stat boost would put a player above 200 CA or beyond 20 in a stat? Can the engine actually compute that? Lets say you boost Morale, what happens if that somehow boosts the AI into overconfidence and makes it even easier? On top of that, a lot of times (especially in the league) the bigger issue is the AI just not being as good as it should be against other AI. I've rolled the league plenty of times because my supposed competitors simply don't reach the point tallies they should. Difficulty levels wouldn't do anything there. Neither would they really help with things like squad building, squad rotation, player happiness and so on. Same goes for other stuff, lets say you give all the AIs way more money, but then the player just gets even more money from their transfers that they can use much better than the AI. Just like how in Civ the AI makes a ton of gold because of all their bonuses and then the player just sells them luxuries at exorbitant prices and ends up as the real winner.

As for challenge, why not go into the future on top of what you're doing. You'll have to deal with newgens (which I know isn't everyone's favorite thing in FM), where you can't just tell from your existing knowledge how good they are/will be, any squad you join will be ravaged by decades of AI squad building and your DoF now has twice the crappy players he can try signing for you as the database tends to expand quite a bit over time. Oh and then instead of the preset thing, use whatever tactic your assistant tells you is best for your squad and make it work. Might get lucky with a squad suited for 4-3-3 Gegenpress or you might have to make a 5-4-1 Catenaccio work. Or just grab a tactic you're not familiar with and try to make that your thing over the course of the save and then only agree to join teams that have squads suited to your tactic.

He. Yeah Wolves is a nutcase when it comes to transfers.

Yeah I don't know enough about difficulty levels to be certain that it would work. Perhaps you are right. Perhaps it would just creat different problems and wouldn't be an overall improvement to the game. I don't know. In any case I personally think it is a little sad and frustrating that the game is so easy the way it is now. Although on the other hand it feels possible to create your own way of playing to replicate what you would like to see in the game, so I appreciate the freedom and the many ways you can play this game.

 

Regarding the latter part: I play with rather extreme restrictions in all saves. Among many other things, I never never sign players based on my personal knowledge. I don't sign Kendrick unless the DoF signs him for me so to speak. I actually only sign players that the DoF signs (I sometimes veto/reject some of his signings). I would say I play at least 80% like a Head coach challenge. Among many other restrictions like never touching training, delegating all hiring of statt to the staff etc.

In other words, I don't mind regens. I (unfortunately) won't perform any worse in a 2040 regen world than i would in the first season.

But Dice Managing has potential hehe. Messing up morale from time to time can be quite entertaining. Feels realistic as well, more erratic performances, like almost any team IRL.

I mostly agree regarding what you say about tactics. It is just that when I have tried other tactics, like Tiki-Taka, Vertical Tiki-Taka, Route One, Control Possession, I find them boring and/or ugly to look at. I love how Gegenpress looks in the games. However, I consider doing like someone suggesting and tweaking the Gegenpress to make it less OP. Like turning the high press and high defensive line down a knotch or two but keep the high tempo on possesion that I think looks cool.

Edited August 7, 2023 by danej

[ChrisNUFC]

Transfers/Team Building has become a bit of meme over the last decade. AI buying your players for silly fees, only for the player to never play for their new team, which leads to them being transfer listed at a reduced fee. 
 

THE TACTIC 

Once a community tactic ‘exploit’ becomes known that’s it. It’s game over unless you don’t play use the tactic as a ‘added difficulty’ of sorts. 
 

In the past this has been back post corners, near post corners, gengenpress and advanced forwards. These have been so effective as the AI doesn’t seem to actually scout opposition and set up to counter their strengths. 
How do you counter the press? Draw them in to pass beyond the press/switch the play where your overload is, wall passes, etc. AI won’t do this unless they have a specific tactical dataset to do so, even if they are tactically one of the best in the world. 
 

The game is very much a game and set in stone when it comes to behaviours. Even managers with 20 in tactical awareness will not perform pre-game tactical changes to counter your strengths and exploit your weaknesses and certainly they don’t recognise in-match situations and make changes. They rotate through their preferred formations, when I feel in reality each coach should have a confidence/proficiency rating for each formation and tactical style. 
 

Set pieces needs changed to allow for blockers, screens, decoys, etc. it’s been the same system for as long as I can remember. 
 

Goalkeeper AI doesn’t seem to have improved much either. It rarely feels or looks like there’s much difference between a GK and SK, with keepers in general not leaving their 6 yard box to claim crosses. You sometimes see a SK claim over hit through balls, but rarely (I use rarely in case it does happen but I haven’t experienced it) when using a play out of the back tactic are they used when passing the ball around the area/defensive line.

Which is perhaps why the gengenpress works so well, as the match engine doesn’t have the coding in place to counter it. 

[enigmatic]

On 11/06/2023 at 20:38, Platinum said:

Transfers is the big one that can also be easily solved by SI implementing a realistic DoF feature/functionality. The board shouldn't have any expectations on the manager regarding players bought in/player sales. Currently you are so you can actually get sacked/get warned because the DoF didnt sign players in line with the boards expectations

I think this is a good point. If you delegate transfers, the board should weight them (and budget management) relatively low. You might still get "disappointed the manager has failed to integrate any of the new signings" or "concerned the club has not improved considering the money spent, and possibly even firings as a result but the board shouldn't be disappointed with you for not signing Portuguese players or hot prospects unless you've been vetoing them or have sole transfer responsibility.

A related issue with responsibilities (unless it's been patched) it's still possible to get sacked for an assman's response to a media question if delegating, which is obviously ludicrous

 

[Platinum]

A high difficult level in FM means:

• Realistic injury rate
• Harder to keep squad morale high
• Harder to convince players to join your team/agree a wage/transfer fee - particularly if you aren't established as a massive club & top manager
• More competition for player transfers
• Make transfers and wage negotiations take longer to conclude. Currently they can be done in 1 - 3 hours in the game world time
• Board are harsher with you when your reputation is low

[danej]

1 minute ago, Platinum said:

A high difficult level in FM means:

• Realistic injury rate
• Harder to keep squad morale high
• Harder to convince players to join your team/agree a wage/transfer fee - particularly if you aren't established as a massive club & top manager
• More competition for player transfers
• Make transfers and wage negotiations take longer to conclude. Currently they can be done in 1 - 3 hours in the game world time
• Board are harsher with you when your reputation is low

Personally I would love to have that as an option. More of a challenge.

[andu1]

2 hours ago, Platinum said:

A high difficult level in FM means:

• Realistic injury rate
• Harder to keep squad morale high
• Harder to convince players to join your team/agree a wage/transfer fee - particularly if you aren't established as a massive club & top manager
• More competition for player transfers
• Make transfers and wage negotiations take longer to conclude. Currently they can be done in 1 - 3 hours in the game world time
• Board are harsher with you when your reputation is low

Yeah.
I would love to see a version like this.

Make it selectable as a REALISTIC Version.

FM is too easy as it is...

[Overmars]

On 11/06/2023 at 16:09, danej said:

Anyway, I am not sure that SI wants to fix transfers. Perhaps many who pay for the game get a kick out of feeling like transfer gurus, getting the big coup over the line. I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of the customers for this game are like that. And if so, like in most organizations I imagine there the people at the top of the SI hierarchy have a huge focus on the bottom line. And they will do whatever it takes to please the highest amount of customers possible.

I'd go as far as to say the vast majority of FM players really enjoy managing transfers. It's more fun to pick and choose who you want to buy/sell than it is to click "Encourage" or "Congratulations on scoring a goal."

I bet almost every FM player is much more active with transfers than the AI is. That's the big difference. Humans make net positive deals constantly throughout a season, sometimes moving dozens of players in and out of the club. If AI teams did the same then they would be much better, the human managers would find it much tougher, and the game would feel completely ridiculous because the football world doesn't have anywhere near that much transfer activity in real life.

If someone wants to add a bit of challenge to their save without going too extreme then I would suggest limiting the number of transfers per season.

[danej]

3 hours ago, Overmars said:

I'd go as far as to say the vast majority of FM players really enjoy managing transfers. It's more fun to pick and choose who you want to buy/sell than it is to click "Encourage" or "Congratulations on scoring a goal."

I bet almost every FM player is much more active with transfers than the AI is. That's the big difference. Humans make net positive deals constantly throughout a season, sometimes moving dozens of players in and out of the club. If AI teams did the same then they would be much better, the human managers would find it much tougher, and the game would feel completely ridiculous because the football world doesn't have anywhere near that much transfer activity in real life.

If someone wants to add a bit of challenge to their save without going too extreme then I would suggest limiting the number of transfers per season.

I mostly agree. However, it might have to be max 1-2 transfers per season in order for such a rule to actually work. It the aim is to stop overachieving. It is so easy to find great bargains in the game. It doesn't take many each season to keep the upward trajectory going. Unless you mess up in other aspects of the game, deliberately or not.

Edited June 14, 2023 by danej

[Draakon]

I have seen transfer windows where AI overhauls half of the team and sells/buys 6-8 new first team players in one window. So it happens, but on the other hand AI might struggle fitting them to tactics or gelling them all together as a team.