YAC Billericay needs help: 433 shape

[HanziZoloman]

Hey guys, I need the help of this Forum: My YAC worked out well. For 9 seasons I had no trouble to punch above weight and we have been closer to promotions spots than struggling with relegation in Vanarama South.

This year however we get a penalty against us in almost every match, we get  a lot of red cards and most important we're shot away like 6:1 / 6:2 it's hard to keep the team above the line. Morale is stable and we are already in January. The players are the same, tactic is the same but it's not working anymore.

It's a 433 it has always been something like this all the years:

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our best players:

 

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Do you need more information just tell me. Thanks!

More Info:

 

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Edited August 3, 2023 by HanziZoloman

[Johnny Ace]

@HanziZoloman - player quality's definitely not helping your job here, your RPM's silver star rated ie he's not rated very well at being a playmaker

The rest of the squad has a lot of 2 star rated players, generally a 2.5 star player is a useful squad player. The centre midfield looks very flakey * just noticed your star BWM is suspended, top bloke  

Your HOYD hasn't been kind either because you don't seem to have much depth in terms of midfield. Do any of the fullbacks look like they can be retrained into CMs/DMs? Generally any that are too slow to play at WB/FB can be retrained into CDs/DMs/CMs for some depth 

Samuel Martin looks like he could be a useful Mezzala?

How are you central defenders? Are they struggling with the high D-line? You could easily drop that to Standard. Can they actual play out of defence? Do they get caught out at all?

Do you have any height up front to cause problems for defenders in the air or any with good off the ball? Are they fast?

On Positive, the Team Instruction already comes with Shorter Passing, it might worth a try losing that to open up some passing options and maybe even starting off at Balanced and working from there 

Like I said, the YAC is very tough and England is a mega slog, lots of games, lots of 2 game gameweeks, fatigue can be tough to manage 

 

[HanziZoloman]

Thanks for the hints @Johnny Ace. The training takes time but I will do that. My fastest FB are also not the bravest (3-5) which is why let slower ones play but maybe fast is good enough. Samuel Martin as a MEZ(A) is very good he scored and is a threat. I don't have height up front but Rhys Platt found his scorer skills again and he is at least strong (13) and not too slow (11 Acc/ 10 Pac). The faster strikers are not scoring. dropped the DL and still they're struggling. We managed to get some closer losses and finally some wins (3 in a row). On the left side we don't have any width, do you have suggestions? With a WB we get easy crosses and goals against. Usually the opponents are scoring with a dribbling on the flanks, cutting inside, low cross and poached. My defenders are watching.

 

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[Johnny Ace]

Okay @HanziZolomanthat looks about the best you can do with the squad you have right now

Yes, you lack a bit of attacking width on the left but you identified an issue and have done something about it, so if it helps with the issue, it will be fine for now 

Bottom 3 go down and you're 20th, in April so not long left now, how are you rating your chances?

 

[Skywalk3r83]

I'm curious, what's a YAC save? 
Good luck with you save, tips from @Johnny Ace are always helpful.

Edited August 4, 2023 by Skywalk3r83
typo

[Johnny Ace]

3 minutes ago, Skywalk3r83 said:

I'm curious, what's a YAC save? 
Good luck with you save, tips from @Johnny Ace are always helpful.

I'm really spreading the word today but it's the Youth Academy Challenge. If you're bored of normal saves by now, give it a go, very tough challenge but a lot of fun once you get rolling 

 

 

[Skywalk3r83]

59 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

I'm really spreading the word today but it's the Youth Academy Challenge. If you're bored of normal saves by now, give it a go, very tough challenge but a lot of fun once you get rolling 

 

 

Thanks! That's a challenge for sure! 

[HanziZoloman]

@Skywalk3r83 it really is. Just talked with @Johnny Ace that the first two years are the hardest and then this 9th season became the absolute nightmare of a year. I think we're safe now (?) you said @Johnny Ace that three go down and 20th is safe.

 

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Well it's in our hands.

 

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I changed formation  with game against Dulwich Hamlet and used the above formation since Havant & W. It looked much more solid in defense compared to the games before especially in January. It was crucial to play Samuel Martin as a MEZ(A): 

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What are your thoughts on this one (?): 

 

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Edited August 4, 2023 by HanziZoloman

[Johnny Ace]

Looks like a point will do it 

It can get harder the longer you go because all of the senior players will have retired or moved on, in the meantime you have to train the kids you have and hope they're good enough to fill the squad 

Finishing 4 isn't brilliant, are you training him at the Mezzala role too?  He looks like he might be better used on (S) as on (A) he'll be getting into the box to finish chances and looks to be a better supporting type player

Ghouma could be a good AMC but then you'll need solid DMs for a 4-2-3-1, he looks a bit poor defensively to be in CM 

 

 

[HanziZoloman]

Hey, thanks again. Yes a point will do it.  Maybe it’s time for your 4231 thread, I’m all in, is it time to move on?

[Johnny Ace]

16 minutes ago, HanziZoloman said:

Hey, thanks again. Yes a point will do it.  Maybe it’s time for your 4231 thread, I’m all in, is it time to move on?

I might post up one I use and talk about it a little but I can't go through all of the straight forward variations, It might have to be FM24 

DMs are the key for the 4-2-3-1, if you can have a couple that are rock solid, it could be an option. If they're not, you're probably better off with a 4-3-3

If you stay up *fingers crossed* I'd spend a good amount of preseason going though the entire squad seeing who could play where ie slow fullbacks can make good CD/DM/CMs. Fast central players can make good wide players. Slow attacking players can make good CM/AMs. Wingers can be Wingbacks and vice versa etc You can play them in their new positions in the friendlies to build up familiarity  

I've converted a Target Man into a DM before because a) I was desperate and b) his goal scoring attributes were rubbish so a big strong lad that could pass was more use to me at DM than upfront     

[HanziZoloman]

vor 15 Minuten schrieb Johnny Ace:

I might post up one I use and talk about it a little but I can't go through all of the straight forward variations, It might have to be FM24 

DMs are the key for the 4-2-3-1, if you can have a couple that are rock solid, it could be an option. If they're not, you're probably better off with a 4-3-3

If you stay up *fingers crossed* I'd spend a good amount of preseason going though the entire squad seeing who could play where ie slow fullbacks can make good CD/DM/CMs. Fast central players can make good wide players. Slow attacking players can make good CM/AMs. Wingers can be Wingbacks and vice versa etc You can play them in their new positions in the friendlies to build up familiarity  

I've converted a Target Man into a DM before because a) I was desperate and b) his goal scoring attributes were rubbish so a big strong lad that could pass was more use to me at DM than upfront     

Ok we got thrashed 4:1 and even managed to get the occasional red card without it, it's not a Ricay match. Taunton lost their match as well and we stay up. Beforehand I'd signed a new 1 year contract. This was worst year we'd ever had. Thanks for your help without it I think we would not have made it.

Ok thanks for your advice. I'll need it if you got time to spare maybe you could help and we could think together how to build a squad for next year here in this thread?

I'll post some players and we think over how to train and properly play them? Of course I understand if it's too much for you but I#d be grateful.

The first hints I'll try to follow. Target Man into DM I get it ... 

The 4231 you want to talk about: I'm all ears 

Those are my DM:
 

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This evening I'll have free time from the kids and will play a good amount and I'll be here.

Edited August 4, 2023 by HanziZoloman

[Johnny Ace]

1 hour ago, HanziZoloman said:

Ok we got thrashed 4:1 and even managed to get the occasional red card without it, it's not a Ricay match. Taunton lost their match as well and we stay up. Beforehand I'd signed a new 1 year contract. This was worst year we'd ever had. Thanks for your help without it I think we would not have made it.

Skin of your teeth job then, phew. At least they're given you another year 

1 hour ago, HanziZoloman said:

Ok thanks for your advice. I'll need it if you got time to spare maybe you could help and we could think together how to build a squad for next year here in this thread?

 We can try, is a bit difficult looking at load of player profiles 

1 hour ago, HanziZoloman said:

The first hints I'll try to follow. Target Man into DM I get it ... 

Desperate times call for desperate measures 

1 hour ago, HanziZoloman said:

The 4231 you want to talk about: I'm all ears 

Those are my DM:
 

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This evening I'll have free time from the kids and will play a good amount and I'll be here.

What's a "good" attribute in the VNN? A 10? An 8? You've got a least a few guys that can play DM so that's a start, click on the DM position for each of them, and highlight the attributes for the Defensive Midfielder or Anchor. You could do with at least 8's/10's whatever it is in a lot of the required attributes. You could compare them to other DMs in the league and see how they size up compared to those

Just looking at the first guy Edon Janata, he has 7 Marking, 6 Tackling, 6 Anticipation, 7 Bravery so if he's being relied on to play in a DM pairing, he might not do a good defensive job. But, I've no idea if I'm being harsh, a 6 could be great for the league, I don't know  The 17 Aggression seems to be doing him a lot of favours

Next guy, Briggs, 4 Marking, 6 Passing with the Killer Balls Trait (who taught him that?), 5 Concentration, again, I might be harsh on the guy but they don't look solid enough for me as a DM pairing, the joys of the YAC 

You might have a slow left back somewhere (now you've had 9 intakes) that rates pretty well or at least better than these dudes as a DM that you could retrain, see what I mean? Go through every player and see what they're at least not terrible at and see if they can do a job somewhere else on the pitch. You might have slow ML/Rs that can play in CM  

This is what I mean about tactics and the YAC, it's only a small part of the challenge, I think if you put Pep in charge of these guys, he'd struggle too 

[Johnny Ace]

Is it the Vanarama National you're in @HanziZoloman?

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That's Notts County's DM in my save 

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That's Blyth's in the Vanarama North's

[HanziZoloman]

Wow @Johnny Ace I'm really happy for your input, you said it's harsh to tell but I appreciate your honesty. I'm still in Vanarama South: 

Here is an overview of the players currently in and around the first team and the required attributes for a DM(S):

doesn't look like my strongest position but I will compare to the above guys, though they are a league above (?) Uhhh those guys look a lot better then mine. Maybe it's time for a new HOYD (?)

Briggs: He came with those traits, I tried to up his passing but it didn't work.

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I don't see anyone who mentally and technically fit to play a DM(S) but I see Elliot Terry as an Anchor. He can mark, tackle, is aggressive and brave. Anticipation, Composure and Decision is just 1 point low but he is still young (19). Also with an Anchor maybe I can let the WB fly because I have slow tacklers or fast crossers. My best players are attacking midfielders and strikers. Maybe I can just outscore opponents.

My U18s are like this: 

 

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Maybe I chose a tactic with as less as possible DM ... Maybe something like a 442 or 433 is better suited. 

I was close to the promotion spots in the last years with roughly the same players. 

Edited August 4, 2023 by HanziZoloman

[HanziZoloman]

Well here is another sheet for MC kind of players:

First Team:

Playing Samuel Martin as a MEZ(S) worked well, Abimbola Ibeh is just 18 and could play the same role. Belarmino Domingos could be his sidekick as a MC(S) or for more grit I could play Briggs. I can't see anybody who could be retrained.

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Under 18s:

Scott Hart looks interesting but his vision could improve but he is a decent tackler as well. He lacks Flair though but it's not necessary for a MEZ considering the game.

Or is he our future Anchor (?)

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Edited August 4, 2023 by HanziZoloman

[HanziZoloman]

Finally the sheet for players around the opponents box:

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Under 18s

 

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[Johnny Ace]

I'd stick with the 4-3-3 @HanziZoloman, having three players forming the triangle with one DM will serve you better I feel, if Samuel is playing well as a MEZZ(S), stick with it. Train the position on him too so he improves the attributes needed

I don't think Wilson at Blyth looked any better than yours, a DLP yes, but defensively nothing above your guys. Have a browse around your league at their standard of DMs and CMs to compare 

End of season, have a look at your HOY, see if you can upgrade him, ask the board to upgrade the youth facilities and networking, all standard YAC stuff 

1 hour ago, HanziZoloman said:

 don't see anyone who mentally and technically fit to play a DM(S) but I see Elliot Terry as an Anchor. He can mark, tackle, is aggressive and brave. Anticipation, Composure and Decision is just 1 point low but he is still young (19). Also with an Anchor maybe I can let the WB fly because I have slow tacklers or fast crossers. My best players are attacking midfielders and strikers. Maybe I can just outscore opponents.

If you think you have a good Anchor, play him there, train him there, he's young and if the coach sees more potential in him, he'll get better 

You're already shaping up:

?? - MEZZ(S)

   A(D)

1 hour ago, HanziZoloman said:

I was so close to the promotion spots in the last years with roughly the same players. 

What happened there then? Could've been one of those seasons but it's another season where you're young player gained experience and hopefully skills 

Can see a lot of potential stars in U-18's, you've a lot of players you can mould, upgrading the training facilities will help all round  

I like how you're having a good look at player attributes now 

[HanziZoloman]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb Johnny Ace:

End of season, have a look at your HOY, see if you can upgrade him, ask the board to upgrade the youth facilities and networking, all standard YAC stuff 

They won't upgrade anything. Haven't done it in all the years always refusing. Me and my team are just bagging badges, I am at Cont. Pro already.

You're right in many points, like 433 and Wilson from Blyth. I am already shaping up: 

IF(S)       P.       IW(S)

     MC(S) MEZ(S)

               A

WB(S) CD CD WB(S)

I am already playing preseason friendlies.

You said you see a lot of potential in U18s can you name some players who are catching your eye?

Did you notice anything else worth exploring more deeply?

vor 13 Minuten schrieb Johnny Ace:

What happened there then? Could've been one of those seasons but it's another season where you're young player gained experience and hopefully skills 

I've tried to play possession based football with an RPM ... and a lot of red cards, penalties, one of those years.

[Johnny Ace]

It's hard to tell, all I can see is names, stars and few Attributes

You're shaping up well, how are the preseason friendlies going?

Don't worry about playmakers for now

[HanziZoloman]

two friendlies: 4:0 against Slough (league below) and 0:0 against St.Albans a top club from VNS. 

Goumah did well with many key passes, also the really fast WB(S) are doing a decent job in offense. Terry as A(D) looks good so far. His Jumping helps with balls over the top. Samuel Martin got problems to get involved in the game, Ibeh looks better when he comes from the bench as MEZ(S). Domingos did solid games with some highlights. Rhys Platt has a lot of work to do up front and is struggling a bit.

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The Anchor (?)

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how about him:

 

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next friendly against Dover who are always top of the league and got promoted to the Vanarama National 3:0 for our side. Especially the WB(S) are doing a great job. I'll need another tactic for my slow FB in case the WB are not fit to play. Maybe a defensive solid tactic with a FB(A) and a W(S).

Edited August 4, 2023 by HanziZoloman

[HanziZoloman]

update:

we had a decent start considering we played top teams, St Albans, Welling, Wealdstone and Havant & W are all teams we had a lot of trouble with last year and the years before. All tight games and the matches could have gone either way. That's good.

WB(S) are doing a fine job. with a true A(D) in midfield we look a lot more secure, this was the key change for now. Terry plays the role like no-nonsense and is a threat in set pieces as well. Samuel Martins is playing rock solid as a MEZ(S) this year will be key for him as he will start more games than ever. I hope he will develop.

Trouble is up front maybe it's just missing chances but Rhys Platt has a lot of off-sides in the game and the IF(S) has not much impact despite being one of the best players in the team.

The IW(S) on the other side is great but if I switch for a W(S) to try to put three players on that side together wit the MEZ(S) and the WB(S) for opening space, that's not working yet.

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the not working side W(S) 

but I'm complaining on high level. This year could be much better. I just want to target the issue before it becomes a problem ... any ideas what's wrong with my left and right side?

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[Johnny Ace]

Can you post up the player profiles of Platt and your two wide attackers please?

Just thinking, if the striker isn't super mobile, he might be finding it tough playing as a Poacher. Plenty of offsides is saying he's making those runs in behind but he's going too early. Most likely he's young and his mental attributes are going to develop with game time and age  

I'm thinking an: 

         AF(A)

IF(S)               IW(S)

Creator/scorer on the left, goal scorer upfront, creator on the right 

You've added some Width so it will have your IF and W a little bit further apart, this is something to experiment with. I find going Wider has the wide players seeing a lot of the ball, they will then help create chances for the players in the centre 

You've made a great start pal 

[HanziZoloman]

@Johnny Ace So here are my strikers:

Rhys Platt - true Legend - first intake 334 games 184 goals

 

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Darin Magri - always number two - never scored like Rhys but reliable

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The talent - Aitor Alvarez - but I didn't get him rolling

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Edited August 5, 2023 by HanziZoloman

[HanziZoloman]

the wide players: 

Inih Sole - he has trouble with consistency some good games popping up in a lot of quiet ones where he is nowhere to be seen but to be fair he has always Kent Ryder in front of him who I nominated more often for the starting 11. At the moment Kent is struggling which is why Inih gets more games

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Kent Ryder - he is rated as my best player / 38 goals and 40 assists in 243 games which isn't outta space but better than everybody else ...

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Peter Jones - great crosser 30 assists in 180 games isn't the new Beckham. With his crossing and the powerful poacher I got up front there should be more especially as Peter isn't the slowest and can beat a FB with his physicals

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the talent - Abimbola Ibeh he's like a very talented player but I doubt if he will realize his potential. His Decision making is still awful low despite training. He is more like a MEZ(S) sub but is in need of game time. 

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Edited August 6, 2023 by HanziZoloman

[HanziZoloman]

Ah I forgot my best: Achref Gouma he had the best games but was on international duty 

I played him as IW(S) 

He chips in with a lot of key passes and good set pieces, his movement on the field is good I see him popping up in places where he hurts the opponents

but he's got a lot of international duties I hope it helps his development

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Here is the striker from U18s who's hitting the net regularly

I think he's got some talent but his finishing 4 will give him troubles

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There is a fresh striker coming in with the next intake and it’s called a golden generation. I hope it will, we are in need of it.

so far we managed to stay out of trouble but are suffering a bad form in January. Stupid misses, woodwork and the other side hitting us on the counter end of the game. People are tired. The wings are quiet, not much input all the month few assists few goals. Magrin and Platt are keeping us in the game as poachers on a shared workplace.

Edited August 6, 2023 by HanziZoloman

[Johnny Ace]

Platt, I would keep playing him as a Poacher, I don't think he's got the Dribbling skill required to ball carry so as long as he keeps scoring for you, keep him as that 

With the Poacher, I'd want both wide attackers inverting unless the Poacher is a physical beast, his off the ball isn't bad but in the air, I don't think he'll be much good vs the VNN centre backs 

Key thing I want from the wide attackers is Acceleration, I know beggars can't be choosers in the YAC but I'd focus on the 10+ Acceleration guys. Key things I want from an IF is Composure, Passing, Vision, Finishing etc so that would rule out most of your guys as IFs for me 

I would go the dual IW(S) route, being only 18 I think Sole has the potential to be a good IF(S) for you but otherwise I would have Role/Ryder as the left IW and any of the other guys on the right as an IW. Even if they're right footed, they're still invert but play like a Winger/ Inverted Winger hyrbrid 

 

[HanziZoloman]

that’s good advice @Johnny Ace Thanks for checking all players. 
would you mind and tell if you see the Spanish striker Alvarez as useful?

Edited August 6, 2023 by HanziZoloman

[Johnny Ace]

1 hour ago, HanziZoloman said:

that’s good advice @Johnny Ace Thanks for checking all players. 
would you mind and tell if you see the Spanish striker Alvarez as useful?

He's 20 now mate with 4 Finishing, he's fast and brave but that's about it, don't renew his contract  

[HanziZoloman]

Ah shot … I knew it … 

[HanziZoloman]

Now here is someone coming through ..

 

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[Johnny Ace]

Tall, good Balance, finishing and pace, he could be useful in a number of areas. I'd say out wide or up front @HanziZoloman  

He's got an Unambitious personality so I wouldn't expect the World but get him in a Mentoring Group with more ambitious senior players and see if it improves  

[HanziZoloman]

Here is another one of the creatures my academy produce, not perfect in every way but some attributes are interesting:

his mentals are incredible compared to other player in my team

How would you try to mould him?

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Edited August 12, 2023 by HanziZoloman

[Johnny Ace]

2 minutes ago, HanziZoloman said:

Here is another one of the creatures my academy produce

Bit harsh 

He very much looks like an AMC/ creative striker to me 

[HanziZoloman]

vor 13 Minuten schrieb Johnny Ace:

Bit harsh 

He very much looks like an AMC/ creative striker to me 

and if you'd play a 433 with no AMC, I thought of a F9/ DLF kind of striker but his dribbling is low maybe he's just one of these creatures ....

[HanziZoloman]

 

I am looking for help again. We went up with a solid, balanced approach and won EFL One. We played a fluid 433 for must matches which looked something like this:

 

We conceded easily and are limp in attack. Our Striker looks lost. We have a lot of the ball and get countered and dominated by opponents who mainly play 442 shapes. Usually one of my players makes a lazy pass which is interceped and then my team is overrun. 

The best players are the Keeper and the NCB in defense. My left FB is capable too but goes forward often. I have good attacking players, fast wingers, strong forwards, creative forwards and Adam Needs is something in between a creative player and a forward. He thrives in a MEZ(A) role. In midfield I have solid players who can pass the ball. 

I am lacking a strong DM, I either have a good defending one who is a low passer or a good passer who is bad at defending. Seems like a 4231 should be better? 

I want to try and grind out draws as opposition is much better then our team.

Edit: maybe I should defend in a 4141 (?) for stability, creating a compact defence, harassing all incoming players and transitioning into a 325 attack with a W(S) AP(A) IW(A) and WB(S) a DM(D) and MC(S) behind.

The strengths of the players point more towards a two striker partnership with Wingers. I am really unsure about the next steps to go tactically. 
For now we still have strong team cohesion and played a 433 for some years now.

Edited January 10 by HanziZoloman

[coach vahid]

Il y a 3 heures, HanziZoloman a dit :

 

I am looking for help again. We went up with a solid, balanced approach and won EFL One. We played a fluid 433 for must matches which looked something like this:

 

We conceded easily and are limp in attack. Our Striker looks lost. We have a lot of the ball and get countered and dominated by opponents who mainly play 442 shapes. Usually one of my players makes a lazy pass which is interceped and then my team is overrun. 

The best players are the Keeper and the NCB in defense. My left FB is capable too but goes forward often. I have good attacking players, fast wingers, strong forwards, creative forwards and Adam Needs is something in between a creative player and a forward. He thrives in a MEZ(A) role. In midfield I have solid players who can pass the ball. 

I am lacking a strong DM, I either have a good defending one who is a low passer or a good passer who is bad at defending. Seems like a 4231 should be better? 

I want to try and grind out draws as opposition is much better then our team.

Just theory, but i will untick counter (Usually one of my players makes a lazy pass which is interceped and then my team is overrun.)

Switch the AP with the CM or the IF with the Winger. The AP will have more players on a run in front of him. ( Of course the WB needs to be behind the IF and the FB behind the Winger. Be careful, i think it will be more dangerous to play the WB on the AP's side.)

I don't see the point to play Roll it out and distribute to centre back with a NCB.

Trigger pressing : Much more often is maybe too demanding for your players. Just often and standard D-line can help to be more disciplined out of possession.

I don't think be more disciplined in possession is useful.

Maybe i'm wrong.

 

[HanziZoloman]

thanks @coach vahid for the feedback!

I‘ll consider it all. How‘s your experience with 433 in general as an absolute underdog?

Just between my kids, my best players:

 

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Edited January 10 by HanziZoloman

[HanziZoloman]

and some more:

 

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That's who we are:

 

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the others (mental and physical) look worse ... 

Edited January 10 by HanziZoloman

[coach vahid]

I never played with an absolute underdog team...

But in this case, in my opinion, you need to keep it very simple. One tendency on possession, one out of possession.

I used with an average low team only three instructions with some success : pass into space - counter- lower line of engagement. Simple and logical. But i'm far away to be an expert.

There's some videos on you tube from Old Man Phil based on if you can't do it, don't do it. If it can help you.

Good luck 

[HanziZoloman]

Old Man Phil is great thanks @coach vahid! So good!