The FM 2023 and 2024 .. I guess.. 4-2-3-1 DM Thread

[HanziZoloman]

I already posted this one in one of the positional play threads but as this is my home here I also post it here:

i am playing in a 4231 and want to create the 5221 attacking patterns, what do you think (?): 

right side create/ left side score

          P
IF(A) AM(S) WP(A) 

   DM(S) DLP(S)

WB(S) NCD CD WB(S)

 

WB(S) give width and support build up play through midfield (Play from the back). DLP and WP attract the Defense and overload right side. AM supports and IF makes the runs. Also WP is on (A) to make runs as well from DLP through balls. P IF and WP form a trident like P SS and AP in the 5221 trident. 
 

WP AM DLP and WB Form area of close support 

Attacking shape is like:

      IF    P   WP

WB      AM      WB

       DM      DLP

          NCB CB

If my team (League two) is not capable of doing this, I can change playmaking roles into DM(S) with switch ball ppm and IW(A).

 

Any suggestions?

[Johnny Ace]

9 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

Any suggestions?

I always vote for an IF(S) over an IF(A) when you already have an out and out striker, so in your case,  the Poacher. IF on Support is already a really aggressive role so I prefer to leave the main goal scoring duty to the striker and have the IF a little more focused the creative side and defending the flank 

Your "base" looks spot on and I like the wide AP 

[shakey.bridge]

Hi all, Long time lurker on this good thread but a first time poster. I have gone back to 4-2-3-1 on the Beta as my squad fits this formation. My question is my lone striker role in a fluid counter system. My set up is as follows :-  

                                                                                                                 AF(A) or Poa(A) ?

                                                                                             W(S) or IW(S) ?     AM(S)                  W(S)

                                                                                                                  DM(D)       BWM(D)

                                                                                        FB(S) or WB(S)?  CD(D).        CD(D)          FB(S)

                                                                                                                                G(D)

As I have a low block counter system, I was wondering about a Poacher sitting on the shoulder and finding space would be better, rather than an Advanced Forward chasing down and working the channels? I only ever used a poacher with a Target man before with 2 up top. Obviously the left side depends on whether I use a IW or W as I always use Fullbacks with Wingers and Wingbacks with IF or IW, it is a solid system with a good defensive box of 4. My team are relegation candidates so I have gone for a cautious fluid counter system. Any pointers or glaring errors? or advice?

                                                             

[Johnny Ace]

How do you find the two 6's both on Defend @shakey.bridge? Does it not leave your midfield feeling a bit flat?

[shakey.bridge]

16 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

How do you find the two 6's both on Defend @shakey.bridge? Does it not leave your midfield feeling a bit flat?

Hi Johnny, It is flat, but solid defensively. I think the 4-2-3-1 is top heavy and always works better with 2 sitters, I'm still messing about in Pre Season with it and hardly conceded any goals, usually winning 1 or 2-0. As my team is predicted to go down, most teams are expected to beat me, thus the cautious mentality, occasionally if I do play a weaker team I will change the DM(D) to (S), change the AM(S) to AP(S),  go balanced mentality and a bit more possession orientated. Still unsure about the striker role, both are rated as Poachers by my assistant, but I have always used AF(A) as my go to striker role. I have also noticed in this new version that ratings have gone down for Inverted wingers? all my wide men have better ratings for Wingers even if the side they are rated on is the opposite foot.

[Johnny Ace]

11 minutes ago, shakey.bridge said:

Hi Johnny, It is flat, but solid defensively. I think the 4-2-3-1 is top heavy and always works better with 2 sitters

Cool, see how it goes into the proper season and keep me updated  Have never really tried it myself

12 minutes ago, shakey.bridge said:

Still unsure about the striker role, both are rated as Poachers by my assistant, but I have always used AF(A) as my go to striker role. 

The Poacher is a little more goal orientated than the AF but they're not a million miles apart, try both out and see how you feel

14 minutes ago, shakey.bridge said:

I have also noticed in this new version that ratings have gone down for Inverted wingers? all my wide men have better ratings for Wingers even if the side they are rated on is the opposite foot.

Quite possibly with the changes to the Wingers PI

[HanziZoloman]

Am 3.11.2023 um 15:44 schrieb shakey.bridge:

Hi all, Long time lurker on this good thread but a first time poster. I have gone back to 4-2-3-1 on the Beta as my squad fits this formation. My question is my lone striker role in a fluid counter system. My set up is as follows :-  

                                                                                                                 AF(A) or Poa(A) ?

                                                                                             W(S) or IW(S) ?     AM(S)                  W(S)

                                                                                                                  DM(D)       BWM(D)

                                                                                        FB(S) or WB(S)?  CD(D).        CD(D)          FB(S)

                                                                                                                                G(D)

As I have a low block counter system, I was wondering about a Poacher sitting on the shoulder and finding space would be better, rather than an Advanced Forward chasing down and working the channels? I only ever used a poacher with a Target man before with 2 up top. Obviously the left side depends on whether I use a IW or W as I always use Fullbacks with Wingers and Wingbacks with IF or IW, it is a solid system with a good defensive box of 4. My team are relegation candidates so I have gone for a cautious fluid counter system. Any pointers or glaring errors? or advice?

                                                             

I hope you’re doing well with the set up. I never got a cautious low block working.

But I’d say if you want to counter attack but rely only on a P or AF it surly is easy to mark out. 
I‘d put another role on attack on the wings.

If you decide to use a P (I‘d use one if my striker can’t dribble with the ball good enough) then I have a lot of success if I put enough feeding roles around the guy. I would definitely go with one IW(S/A). 

 But the main issue I have is, you want to sit back with a top heavy formation, maybe something like a 4-1-4-1 should be more helpful? 
A 4231 works fine with a mid block maybe you can try and be a little more courageous? 
 

@Johnny Ace thanks for the advice, I went with an IF(S) and it worked well with the WB(A). 
The AP(A) worked especially well. We see positional play with the AM(S) going to the left making space for the AP and the VOL(A/S) from the back. I changed the DLP into a VOL which gave the formation more drive forward. The DM(D) went into an A(D) creating a almost a back three. We‘re choking teams and have a lot creativity in the final third for our P. It’s fun to look at. 

Edited November 6, 2023 by HanziZoloman

[HanziZoloman]

Again I need some help in the YAC 

How would you set up a 4231 if you‘re the complete underdog?

my ideas are: attacking Wingers like IW(A) and W(A) a WB and a FB a holding DM and one supporting forward like a VOL(S) or BWM(S) a Poacher and a AM(S)? 

[Johnny Ace]

5 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

my ideas are: attacking Wingers like IW(A) and W(A) a WB and a FB a holding DM and one supporting forward like a VOL(S) or BWM(S) a Poacher and a AM(S)? 

Yeah, fine, but why the attacking wide players? Shoving them up and increasing their mentality causes more problems than it's worth to me 

My base would be something like this 

Having the IW & W on Attack would make an already top heavy shape compress more space in the final third and leave me vulnerable down the flanks   

WB(A) can go forward, the IW cuts inside and the DM covers. On the right, the FB isn't given the freedom to go forward, but the Volante can & the Winger gives the V the inside channel, that gives us width and 5 channels to attack 1) WB 2) IW 3) AM 4) Volante 5) Winger 

Then for the underdog, make sure your DMs are strong, a fast P with a nice counter mid block. You can always ask the DMs to ease off the press 

[shakey.bridge]

30 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Yeah, fine, but why the attacking wide players? Shoving them up and increasing their mentality causes more problems than it's worth to me 

My base would be something like this 

Having the IW & W on Attack would make an already top heavy shape compress more space in the final third and leave me vulnerable down the flanks   

WB(A) can go forward, the IW cuts inside and the DM covers. On the right, the FB isn't given the freedom to go forward, but the Volante can & the Winger gives the V the inside channel, that gives us width and 5 channels to attack 1) WB 2) IW 3) AM 4) Volante 5) Winger 

Then for the underdog, make sure your DMs are strong, a fast P with a nice counter mid block. You can always ask the DMs to ease off the press 

That's the same set-up I use for 4-2-3-1 with the exception of the Vol (I use a BWM) the Vol is a role I have never used. Is he defensively sound? is it just like a B2B in the CM position? My go to midfield pair before the CM's were moved to the DM position was DLP(D) with B2B(S) which I used for years in 4-4-2, 4-2-3-1 and 5-2-1-2 I wonder if a Pairing of DLP(D) and Vol(S) would work as a double pivot in the DM position?

As for IW and IF on attack duty, I've only ever used them when my striker is on a support role, a DLF(S) or F9(S) works well with an IF(A) with a supporting winger on the other flank.

[Johnny Ace]

46 minutes ago, shakey.bridge said:

That's the same set-up I use for 4-2-3-1 with the exception of the Vol (I use a BWM) the Vol is a role I have never used. Is he defensively sound? is it just like a B2B in the CM position? My go to midfield pair before the CM's were moved to the DM position was DLP(D) with B2B(S) which I used for years in 4-4-2, 4-2-3-1 and 5-2-1-2 I wonder if a Pairing of DLP(D) and Vol(S) would work as a double pivot in the DM position?

Yeah, the Volante's fine defensively, first and foremost, it's a DM role then in attack he surges forward a bit more than a Defensive Midfielder, I like to pair him with a FB(S) on that side of the pitch, a WB(S) is fine, a WB(A) is a bit risky 

DLP(D or S) with a Volante(S) is a good all round combo 

46 minutes ago, shakey.bridge said:

As for IW and IF on attack duty, I've only ever used them when my striker is on a support role, a DLF(S) or F9(S) works well with an IF(A) with a supporting winger on the other flank.

 Yeah, same for me but I don't mind a DLF(A), Treq(A) or CF(A) with an IF(A) since they drop off and/or roam 

[HanziZoloman]

Thank you @Johnny Ace I’ll go for that setup and will report back. I just don’t have a true winger. How would you compensate for that?

Report: we stopped the massive amount of goals conceded. Morale is bad but we are looking much more solid. That was good advice. We have a lot of injuries, crucial players like the quick striker. 

Report II: We struggle to score goals. 

Best players are a right sided WB(A) a fast striker and a DM(D) we don't have a second WB on the left and no Wingers but a lot of AMC or cutting in AML/R. We need some punch up front to score more goals.

Edited November 12, 2023 by HanziZoloman

[Johnny Ace]

5 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

Thank you @Johnny Ace I’ll go for that setup and will report back. I just don’t have a true winger. How would you compensate for that?

You can still use a left footer, but use an IW instead if you're not keen on it but you'll lose the width which was the idea with the Volante/FB.

5 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

Best players are a right sided WB(A) a fast striker and a DM(D) we don't have a second WB on the left and no Wingers but a lot of AMC or cutting in AML/R. We need some punch up front to score more goals.

You could make use of your striker's pace by using him as an AF(A)

Is this the YAC so you can't buy anyone? 

5 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

Best players are a right sided WB(A) a fast striker and a DM(D) we don't have a second WB on the left and no Wingers but a lot of AMC or cutting in AML/R. We need some punch up front to score more goals.

You said you had a good FB and WB and wanted to use a Volante so that's what it's based on. Invert the tactic if you like so the WB(A) is on the right and the FB on the left 

[HanziZoloman]

 

 

vor 36 Minuten schrieb Johnny Ace:

Is this the YAC so you can't buy anyone? 

Yes and it's looking very bad

I inverted the tactic. Of course I did. I promoted some wingers from the U18s they can run and cross which is not bad. Any suggestions I could try? I use the obvious TI for counter.

How do you like 433 for a counter attacking shape (?) but when the difference in class is that great maybe I can’t do anything 

Edited November 12, 2023 by HanziZoloman

[Johnny Ace]

5 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

How do you like 433 for a counter attacking shape (?) but when the difference in class is that great maybe I can’t do anything 

It's great for counter attacking 

[Shippy]

Curious what you think to this system. Currently struggling through my first season with Man Utd with a 433 but want to switch to a 4231 for the new season.

[Halbraum]

On 12.11.2023 at 16:56, HanziZoloman said:

Any suggestions I could try?

Not Johnny but i hope you don't mind me giving an opinion 

I've been experimenting with an almost identical tactic. What i've seen is that AF role becomes much more isolated in a direct passing system as a lone striker, compared to slow build-up tactics when all the AM roles are on support duties.  It's probably because the attacks are less progressive and quicker. Support duties drop deep, someone plays the ball to AF early then he's 1v2/3 if there's not much space behind. So i use agressive AMC roles to patch the isolation, gives me 4-4-2ish patterns  AF moves into channels to create space centrally and the AMC bombs forward to penetrate that space.

[WhiteElf]

4231 dm is my favorite formation. I experimented a lot with the two in midfield. The combination of TF and SS is fantastic. TF is more "static", he goes back for the ball and scores many goals after crosses from IWs and full-backs. SS runs through the channels on the left and right, replaces TF in the penalty area, his pressing is amazing.

In Wolves' 1st season, I took 5th place and qualified for the Champions League, my Cuhna, who played for SS, won the player of the year with over 20 goals. I recommend.

[HanziZoloman]

vor 16 Stunden schrieb Halbraum:

Not Johnny but i hope you don't mind me giving an opinion 

I've been experimenting with an almost identical tactic. What i've seen is that AF role becomes much more isolated in a direct passing system as a lone striker, compared to slow build-up tactics when all the AM roles are on support duties.  It's probably because the attacks are less progressive and quicker. Support duties drop deep, someone plays the ball to AF early then he's 1v2/3 if there's not much space behind. So i use agressive AMC roles to patch the isolation, gives me 4-4-2ish patterns  AF moves into channels to create space centrally and the AMC bombs forward to penetrate that space.

Thanks man but it makes totally sense. Unfortunately I am already relegated but there will be another promotion. Thank you 

[bosque]

How can I mark the opposition pivots with my 2 central attackers?

I would like my 2 central attackers (AM and ST) to mark the opposition pivot or pivots without being dragged out of position. I want them to either be central to cut the passing lane to the pivot or to just be really near them so every pass to the pivot or pivots is a risky pass.

I don't want to give man marking instructions because then my central striker end up running all over the pitch and when we turnover the ball he is not in an ideal position.

I don't want to "trap outside" either because that makes my entire team narrow, gifting the wide areas to much even when the opposition is in our final third.

I just want them to prevent the opposition to use the pivots during their build-up.

[Mik_Fe]

Il 12/11/2023 in 14:52 , Johnny Ace ha scritto:

Puoi comunque usare un piè di pagina sinistro, ma usa invece un IW se non ti piace ma perderai la larghezza che era l'idea con Volante/FB.

IW with "stay wide" it s not the same of W?

Ok IW cut inside but with the ball of default and W not.. It s only this the difference i think?!?!

[Mik_Fe]

questa è la mia configurazione adesso... faccio una stagione con il Sunderland per creare un 4231.

I really like the relationship between the mentalities of the players, all differences of a single mentality... so in theory a group of players who build the maneuver in unison.

My IW has "stay wider", to give width to the offensive phase, my AM has the instruction to move forward to exploit the movement into channels of AF.

This is my theory.. but, I'm still working on it.. i've also a thread opened into forum..

Edited November 25, 2023 by Mik_Fe

[axelmuller]

After an atrocious run in FM23 which included getting sacked from Leeds, Hannover and Zaragoza, I continued my Hannover save and ended up in 2. Bundesliga side Kaiserslautern, obviously with a 4-2-3-1 system.

First full season (2024-2025) was more or less the same struggle as before. Sack loomed all season long but luckily we managed to end up 14th and I kept my job. In the 2025-2026 season we started surprisingly well and kept the momentum going, sealing an unexpected automatic promotion to the Bundesliga. After a 14-year absence from the top flight, Kaiserslautern are now back where they belong. Not too shabby when our media prediction was 12th, and wage budget being 5th lowest in the league.

 

 

It wasn't perfect though. Shots on target ratio (39%) remains a major issue, and Advanced Playmaker seemed to be quite isolated at times. Our main man for that role, Raul Paula, scored 10 goals but had only 4 assists. Somehow he was acting more as a second striker rather than "staying in the hole".

I'm also unsure about the wide defender roles when playing out from the back. Fullbacks are good options in the early stages of the build-up, but especially on attack duty, they always tend to go narrower in the opposition third no matter what. Wingbacks, on the other hand, keep width much better but are rushing forward too early. How to get them to be effective in all stages of the build-up?

Also, since we're in the top flight now, would it make sense to adopt a bit more cautious approach and revert back to Mid Block instead of a highish gegenpressing style?
 

[Halbraum]

On 29.11.2023 at 20:03, axelmuller said:

Advanced Playmaker seemed to be quite isolated at times.

In that case, first thing i'd do is to use a runner DM role on the more defensively solid side of the pitch, it's the left side in your tactic. A Segundo Volante would offer good support for both the AP and the IFat. Don't worry about the WBsu, he's more of a late runner and stays in line with the ball most of the time, unlike a WBat.

On 29.11.2023 at 20:03, axelmuller said:

How to get them to be effective in all stages of the build-up?

Offering the team another outlet when building up from the back is the way to go in this issue imo. For example, an IW(s) drops deeper in build-up and bombs forward less aggressively compared to an IF(s). He becomes another option, also acts as a screen for an WB(att). The right side overlap will become more emphasized too.

On 29.11.2023 at 20:03, axelmuller said:

Also, since we're in the top flight now, would it make sense to adopt a bit more cautious approach and revert back to Mid Block instead of a highish gegenpressing style?

Let's think about it in terms of "risk": Since you're a better team now, some teams will be more cautious against you which means they will be taking less attacking risk. By dropping your defensive TIs/PIs, you are going to take less defensive risk. It's completely counter-productive in my opinion.

But some people go for less aggressive defensive instructions to pull the opposition slightly away from their box and they succeed with this. I guess you have to try the old method which is "trial and error" 

Btw, congrats on your success! Looks like everything's going well. These advices are just for giving food for thought. If it works, it works. Sometimes it's better to not get confused and stay loyal to the status-quo 

[Mik_Fe]

Il 29/11/2023 in 18:03 , axelmuller ha scritto:

After an atrocious run in FM23 which included getting sacked from Leeds, Hannover and Zaragoza, I continued my Hannover save and ended up in 2. Bundesliga side Kaiserslautern, obviously with a 4-2-3-1 system.

First full season (2024-2025) was more or less the same struggle as before. Sack loomed all season long but luckily we managed to end up 14th and I kept my job. In the 2025-2026 season we started surprisingly well and kept the momentum going, sealing an unexpected automatic promotion to the Bundesliga. After a 14-year absence from the top flight, Kaiserslautern are now back where they belong. Not too shabby when our media prediction was 12th, and wage budget being 5th lowest in the league.

 

 

It wasn't perfect though. Shots on target ratio (39%) remains a major issue, and Advanced Playmaker seemed to be quite isolated at times. Our main man for that role, Raul Paula, scored 10 goals but had only 4 assists. Somehow he was acting more as a second striker rather than "staying in the hole".

I'm also unsure about the wide defender roles when playing out from the back. Fullbacks are good options in the early stages of the build-up, but especially on attack duty, they always tend to go narrower in the opposition third no matter what. Wingbacks, on the other hand, keep width much better but are rushing forward too early. How to get them to be effective in all stages of the build-up?

Also, since we're in the top flight now, would it make sense to adopt a bit more cautious approach and revert back to Mid Block instead of a highish gegenpressing style?
 

This tactic has got some PI? Beacuse at now I dont be able to create a 4231 and i want to learn it..

[Brian]

After watching some videos late at night from the Ajax squad back in 18/19 under Ten Hag, I decided to give it a go. 

Still tweaking, but the first results are very good. 

[axelmuller]

14 hours ago, Halbraum said:

In that case, first thing i'd do is to use a runner DM role on the more defensively solid side of the pitch, it's the left side in your tactic. A Segundo Volante would offer good support for both the AP and the IFat. Don't worry about the WBsu, he's more of a late runner and stays in line with the ball most of the time, unlike a WBat.

Offering the team another outlet when building up from the back is the way to go in this issue imo. For example, an IW(s) drops deeper in build-up and bombs forward less aggressively compared to an IF(s). He becomes another option, also acts as a screen for an WB(att). The right side overlap will become more emphasized too.

Let's think about it in terms of "risk": Since you're a better team now, some teams will be more cautious against you which means they will be taking less attacking risk. By dropping your defensive TIs/PIs, you are going to take less defensive risk. It's completely counter-productive in my opinion.

But some people go for less aggressive defensive instructions to pull the opposition slightly away from their box and they succeed with this. I guess you have to try the old method which is "trial and error" 

Btw, congrats on your success! Looks like everything's going well. These advices are just for giving food for thought. If it works, it works. Sometimes it's better to not get confused and stay loyal to the status-quo 

Thank you for the insight!

Segundo Volante is an interesting option, never really used it before. It could nicely bridge the gap between attack and defence, but my concern is that his aggressive running would make us too vulnerable in the middle. Against Braunschweig at home it could work wonders, but at Bayern München away it might be suicidal. What about Roaming Playmaker - I was thinking it may as well be an option for the left-sided DM?

I actually started with the IW-s on the right hand side, but it felt like he wasn't doing anything meaningful with the ball. He was often coming even too deep and couldn't find any passing options, which resulted in him hoofing the ball to nowhere. After switching him to IF-S he became much more of a threat, leading the 2. Bundesliga in "open play key passes per 90 mins".

After getting promoted, our media prediction is now 17th out of 18. I expect most of the teams to attack us hard, so at this point I'm leaning towards being less aggressive. Trial and error indeed is the way to go!

 

5 hours ago, Mik_Fe said:

This tactic has got some PI? Beacuse at now I dont be able to create a 4231 and i want to learn it..

FB-A had "Run Wide With Ball" to prevent him cutting inside. Sometimes I also played him as WB-A with no PI's.

[Halbraum]

2 saat önce, axelmuller said:

After getting promoted, our media prediction is now 17th out of 18. I expect most of the teams to attack us hard, so at this point I'm leaning towards being less aggressive. Trial and error indeed is the way to go!

Ohh noo i completely missed the fact that you got promoted  I though you said top-table, not top flight  Then it's the opposite of what i said. Less defensive risk vs. more attacking risk.

2 saat önce, axelmuller said:

Segundo Volante is an interesting option, never really used it before. It could nicely bridge the gap between attack and defence, but my concern is that his aggressive running would make us too vulnerable in the middle. Against Braunschweig at home it could work wonders, but at Bayern München away it might be suicidal. What about Roaming Playmaker

He's still a number 6 tho. SV(s) and WB(s) together is completely okay in my experience. If you are familiar with Cleon's legendary 4-2-3-1DM thread, he used SV(at) and WB(s) on the left side with great success. 

I define the RPM as a "playmaker BBM". The role's not necessarily more solid when it comes to solidity. 

I hope everthing goes well in next season for you. Good luck!

[Brian]

On 01/12/2023 at 12:21, Brian said:

After watching some videos late at night from the Ajax squad back in 18/19 under Ten Hag, I decided to give it a go. 

Still tweaking, but the first results are very good. 

Results are really coming together. 

 

Callum McGregor in the ''Frenkie role'' at HB really impresses me. 

 

 

[bosque]

I'm trying to recreate the Álvarez - Haaland, where Haaland stays central and Álvarez moves side to side, attacking both channels. I found SS-P do this movement almost perfectly, but the team ends up divided because passing lines down the middle are too difficult to reach. I would love to have a Shadow Striker on Support. 

[Manunited_fan]

How do you guys adapt to the opposition adapting to you? My team crumbled in our last 10 games as the opposition were all playing 4-3-3 with IFB/IWBs to suffocate the middle, and sitting deep to prevent my AF having space.

I've been playing as a team who were touted for mid-table/top half but we were in with a chance of Europa League/maybe 4th, but fell apart and finished 10th. I was moving between balanced and positive depending on who we were playing, but seemed to always start terribly when on positive. 

 

[Bitner]

 Isn't good to tweak things like width, tempo, passing range and stuff when you're being boxed? Those things can always help, but not everything at the same time.

Cheers,
Bitner

14 horas atrás, Manunited_fan disse:

How do you guys adapt to the opposition adapting to you? My team crumbled in our last 10 games as the opposition were all playing 4-3-3 with IFB/IWBs to suffocate the middle, and sitting deep to prevent my AF having space.

I've been playing as a team who were touted for mid-table/top half but we were in with a chance of Europa League/maybe 4th, but fell apart and finished 10th. I was moving between balanced and positive depending on who we were playing, but seemed to always start terribly when on positive. 

 

 

[AndrikoDS]

On 31/12/2023 at 11:24, Manunited_fan said:

How do you guys adapt to the opposition adapting to you? My team crumbled in our last 10 games as the opposition were all playing 4-3-3 with IFB/IWBs to suffocate the middle, and sitting deep to prevent my AF having space.

I've been playing as a team who were touted for mid-table/top half but we were in with a chance of Europa League/maybe 4th, but fell apart and finished 10th. I was moving between balanced and positive depending on who we were playing, but seemed to always start terribly when on positive. 

 

At a guess, I would say playing narrower and playing out of defence is what is giving the opposition the time and space to 'suffocate' your team, and the tactic alread seems to have a lack of width anyway - the WB or W on attack might help open things up. A more experienced player will know better, but from my on experiences I think that might be what is happening.

[Johnny Ace]

You can add the run wide PIs to the Winger and Wingback @Manunited_fan since they are no longer on by default and they can stretch play

Last 10 game slump my not even be tactical so make sure you regularly check your squad's fatigue levels 

[Rashidi]

On 31/12/2023 at 19:24, Manunited_fan said:

 

How do you guys adapt to the opposition adapting to you? My team crumbled in our last 10 games as the opposition were all playing 4-3-3 with IFB/IWBs to suffocate the middle, and sitting deep to prevent my AF having space.

 

The game now rewards players who actually pay attention to role changes in a tactics. I usually study the opposition formation before a match and make minor adjustments if needed. For example whenever I play my 4231 with IWBs I try to spot if the AI changes their wide roles to wingers, if they do I might need to make a small adjustment or I account for that by playing a very strong, intelligent and fast IWB. 
 

Another thing I do is OI, I live and die by OIs in my game. I don’t practice a specific set of OIs for FM24, I used to in 23, today I adapt my OIs based on any role changes I see

[RDF Tactics]

On 31/12/2023 at 11:24, Manunited_fan said:

How do you guys adapt to the opposition adapting to you? My team crumbled in our last 10 games as the opposition were all playing 4-3-3 with IFB/IWBs to suffocate the middle, and sitting deep to prevent my AF having space.

I've been playing as a team who were touted for mid-table/top half but we were in with a chance of Europa League/maybe 4th, but fell apart and finished 10th. I was moving between balanced and positive depending on who we were playing, but seemed to always start terribly when on positive. 

 

Sometimes you don't need to change your mentality, but can change player roles to give your team a bit more going forward. My theory to when my team drops form after a while when we're sort of underdogs is that teams no longer treat us as underdogs and look to create more counter-attacking opportunities.

Without seeing your game and statistics, I can only take guesses looking at the tactic. I would first try replacing my WBs role (they could be countering this area when he gets forward), or putting one of my DMs on Defend to make sure they look to hold their position when your team looks to transition (you have counter in transition).

I personally wouldn't look to use 5 supportive roles in midfield unless I'm looking to completely control the game. If so, then possibly change the ST role just so he can also contribute more in supporting/linking play. When creating chances, he looks to be really the only goal threat. Example, when you work the ball down the right, it's only your striker really looking to bust a gut to get into a scoring position. Your AM may lurk around the box (not bad) but your IF also may not make that much of an aggressive run consistently.

Lastly, also what @Rashidi said. You can use OIs or tweak your tactic in-game according to AI roles. If they're using a IFB, you may want to use a Wa attacking that IFB to create space in other channels or look to overload that IFB by having a overlapping full-back causing trouble for that IFB. If teams are counter-attacking you, you may want to use OIs in attempt to stop certain players from initiating the counter attacks.

[Rashidi]

I think too many people are using the simple fix of changing mentality to fix their tactic, I have a system where I hardly make any changes. I hate playing with counter, hold shape is my go to in all tactics and I love playing front foot dominating football that generates a truck load of chances. I am using IWBs in this system  and its very much a system that drives from the back. However there are many games when I change the IWB to IFB and then change the duty of the wingers to attack. Understanding how the positional play feature affects your tactics is the big ticket way of nailing football manager. 

[TheMartello]

5 hours ago, Rashidi said:

I think too many people are using the simple fix of changing mentality to fix their tactic, I have a system where I hardly make any changes. I hate playing with counter, hold shape is my go to in all tactics and I love playing front foot dominating football that generates a truck load of chances. I am using IWBs in this system  and its very much a system that drives from the back. However there are many games when I change the IWB to IFB and then change the duty of the wingers to attack. Understanding how the positional play feature affects your tactics is the big ticket way of nailing football manager. 

You change both IWB to IFB? And then both wing-players to attack?

[HanziZoloman]

Am 9.1.2024 um 09:57 schrieb Rashidi:

Another thing I do is OI, I live and die by OIs in my game. I don’t practice a specific set of OIs for FM24, I used to in 23, today I adapt my OIs based on any role changes I see

is there a video on this? Or would you post a thread here to it? It would be of great help. Thanks

[ibrahim.akbyk]

43 dakika önce, HanziZoloman said:

is there a video on this? Or would you post a thread here to it? It would be of great help. Thanks

His last stream on twitch was about OI. Watching it right now 😂

[szp]

I started using such hybrid between 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3. Generally I love it, it's pretty versatile tactic with various types of goals etc. The only thing that annoys me is that in possesion, my CM (A) positions himself almost always near the left side. His PI's are "more roaming", "take more risk" and "move into channels". I expect him to make more moves near my AP(S) but somehow he chooses the left channel and my stiker the right one. I tried to remove his PI's, I tried the other players on the CM but also CF positions (both my starting players are left footed, I thought that this might have some impact on their moves) but nothing changed. I also changed my tactic to be the mirror version: AP(S) on the left and IF(A) on the right, VOL on the DMR, DM on the DML. Still the same - CM(A) almost always positions himself on the left side of my striker. What else could I try? Any ideas?

[ibrahim.akbyk]

49 dakika önce, szp said:

I started using such hybrid between 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3. Generally I love it, it's pretty versatile tactic with various types of goals etc. The only thing that annoys me is that in possesion, my CM (A) positions himself almost always near the left side. His PI's are "more roaming", "take more risk" and "move into channels". I expect him to make more moves near my AP(S) but somehow he chooses the left channel and my stiker the right one. I tried to remove his PI's, I tried the other players on the CM but also CF positions (both my starting players are left footed, I thought that this might have some impact on their moves) but nothing changed. I also changed my tactic to be the mirror version: AP(S) on the left and IF(A) on the right, VOL on the DMR, DM on the DML. Still the same - CM(A) almost always positions himself on the left side of my striker. What else could I try? Any ideas?

Did you try IWB on the left? IWB’s move could make VOL a bit more higher freely and your CM could move to the right. Also, you could get 2-2 rest def with IWB. Just an idea but worth to try.

 

For the rest, it looks like very balanced setup, I love how it look.

Edited January 10 by ibrahim.akbyk

[tropicsafc]

Just wanted to pop in say thanks to everyone in this thread. Had a slow read of it over Christmas and used it to create my own tactic which is going incredibly well. Cheers!

[Tsuru]

Hi @Johnny Ace!

I am starting a new save and my best striker is a natural TM, and I have good wingbacks. How would you set up 4231 with a TM? I'd like some good ideas/insights to work with.

Thank you!

[Johnny Ace]

6 hours ago, Tsuru said:

Hi @Johnny Ace!

I am starting a new save and my best striker is a natural TM, and I have good wingbacks. How would you set up 4231 with a TM? I'd like some good ideas/insights to work with.

Thank you!

I'm not sure I'm keen on TM's in a 4-2-3-1 but there's no reason it can't work

I'd have both WBs on Support so they look to cross early, then inverted Wingers or maybe a Winger and IW on the wings 

AM spot is tricky but a SS(A) could be fun 

 

[crusadertsar]

If I were to be lucky enough to have a super tall and strong (yet technical enough to be able to string a pass) TF then I would combine him with a nimble, fast SS with exceptional off-the-ball attribute. Now that would be fun! 

[jamesh123]

Any glaring issues in this system? Trying to get a 4231 going that defends more as a 442. FBs has sit narrower on to create a more hybrid IFB/IWB at times in the build up, Ws has cut inside, AMs with move into channels + get further forward, WBs with stay wider and RPM with dribble more. Pre Season was hit and miss, with most goals coming from set pieces as I struggled to break down teams with a low block 5 at the back. Just wondering if I've missed anything that shouldn't go together with roles or TI's.

 

 

[crusadertsar]

33 minutes ago, jamesh123 said:

Any glaring issues in this system? Trying to get a 4231 going that defends more as a 442. FBs has sit narrower on to create a more hybrid IFB/IWB at times in the build up, Ws has cut inside, AMs with move into channels + get further forward, WBs with stay wider and RPM with dribble more. Pre Season was hit and miss, with most goals coming from set pieces as I struggled to break down teams with a low block 5 at the back. Just wondering if I've missed anything that shouldn't go together with roles or TI's.

 

 

This will not defend like 442. Defensively its rather fragile with wingback and RPM going forward into AMC strata. Your holding midfielder is BWM, and even with defend role, it's not best choice for holder. To defend like 442 you really need two banks of four structure, which is not present here. Try more holding midfield set up and combo of two Fullbacks on support duty or two wingbacks on defend.

Edited July 28 by crusadertsar

[Manunited_fan]

Struggling to break teams down with this tactic. Passing map shows almost no passes to my ST who is very in and out of games. Can control possession but get outnumbered in the box. Most teams seem to play 4-3-3 against me with an IFB as well, so really congesting the middle. Am a title challenging team so most teams will sit deep.

My best players are my ST and my RW and I'd ideally like them being the goalscorers, with the FBs, LW and AM being the providers (LW and AM to chip in with goals regularly too). My strikers are all AFs but my best ST can play as a CF so I do so to try and get him involved more. My RW is probably more suited to being an IF(a) or AM(a) but I worry these could be to conflicting with the already clogged up nature of the front 4, so try to balance it out with being an IW.

I find a lot of the time the DMs and CBs get a lot of time and space on the ball, the wide players get doubled up on and the ST gets no service.

Any glaring issues that need to be addressed?

[Cloud9]

18 minutes ago, Manunited_fan said:

Struggling to break teams down with this tactic. Passing map shows almost no passes to my ST who is very in and out of games. Can control possession but get outnumbered in the box. Most teams seem to play 4-3-3 against me with an IFB as well, so really congesting the middle. Am a title challenging team so most teams will sit deep.

My best players are my ST and my RW and I'd ideally like them being the goalscorers, with the FBs, LW and AM being the providers (LW and AM to chip in with goals regularly too). My strikers are all AFs but my best ST can play as a CF so I do so to try and get him involved more. My RW is probably more suited to being an IF(a) or AM(a) but I worry these could be to conflicting with the already clogged up nature of the front 4, so try to balance it out with being an IW.

I find a lot of the time the DMs and CBs get a lot of time and space on the ball, the wide players get doubled up on and the ST gets no service.

Any glaring issues that need to be addressed?

Add a runner to your pivot and try putting one of your IW as an IF(s).

That will give you a bit more punching power and less dependency on the CF as a goal threat. An IF will give you a more direct goal scoring run than an IW who will provide more in buildup phases. Is your striker capable of playing as an CF(a)? They are quite rare and a poor one can suck the oxygen out of your frontline.

W/the strength of your squad, if you just do morale management and proper rotation you should do fine.