how to approach playing against a physical low block

[ivosaurio]

hey guys, i need some help. i have been trying to switch my tactical identity to a very technical and fluid approach, with lots of rotations, possession and dribbles. so far, it has worked because we are favorites for the title, and one of the richest clubs in the league. my current system is a bit striker dependent, since we use mostly support roles, but we used to create really high quality chances, and it’s still the case. recently, we are on a losing streak because of a lack of goals. only one goal (a penalty) in the last four matches, and the xg numbers have been gradually coming down, from consistently getting over 2xg to barely getting 1xg. from the eye test, what i have noticed, my players really struggle physically against the opposition, specially in the league. my squad is really lacking in physicality compared to the rest of the league, but we make up for it in the technique and mental department, and every team outside the top four plays with a deep block against us. 

what would be your suggestions to get better attacks against deep blocks you can’t compete with in strength, having highly technical players? 

[Cloud9]

57 minutes ago, ivosaurio said:

hey guys, i need some help. i have been trying to switch my tactical identity to a very technical and fluid approach, with lots of rotations, possession and dribbles. so far, it has worked because we are favorites for the title, and one of the richest clubs in the league. my current system is a bit striker dependent, since we use mostly support roles, but we used to create really high quality chances, and it’s still the case. recently, we are on a losing streak because of a lack of goals. only one goal (a penalty) in the last four matches, and the xg numbers have been gradually coming down, from consistently getting over 2xg to barely getting 1xg. from the eye test, what i have noticed, my players really struggle physically against the opposition, specially in the league. my squad is really lacking in physicality compared to the rest of the league, but we make up for it in the technique and mental department, and every team outside the top four plays with a deep block against us. 

what would be your suggestions to get better attacks against deep blocks you can’t compete with in strength, having highly technical players? 

When they sit deep and compact, I stretch the pitch wide, lower the tempo and hit crosses early w/high lines. Stretching the pitch pulls them out of their structure, pinning the fullbacks wide and creates gaps to exploit. They'll struggle with overloading, inside runs from deep. "Hit crosses early" can help launch your crosses before the defenders get set in shape and the low tempo helps you patiently break them down. 

You can then up the tempo in sections of the match, and target specific weak areas of their defence. 

Edited August 20, 2023 by Cloud9

[Johnny Ace]

5 hours ago, ivosaurio said:

what would be your suggestions to get better attacks against deep blocks you can’t compete with in strength, having highly technical players? 

So you've spotted a change in the way opposition managers regard you, post your tactic up and we can see if there's a any potential ideas we can come up with to try out 

5 hours ago, ivosaurio said:

my squad is really lacking in physicality compared to the rest of the league, but we make up for it in the technique and mental department, and every team outside the top four plays with a deep block against us. 

My first thought was pushing up with your press and adding Be More Expressive to make use of those technical players, to move into space and use their football smarts to open up chances but you might already be doing that 

[ivosaurio]

thanks for the tips! here is my tactic, hopefully it helps

14 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

My first thought was pushing up with your press and adding Be More Expressive to make use of those technical players, to move into space and use their football smarts to open up chances but you might already be doing that 

thanks! that’s actually the default setting of my tactic. the idea is to play as “relationist” as the ME will allow, this means, relying on the creativity of my players, having them playing as close to each other as possible to keep possession and advance the ball through quick interchanges and carries. that is the reasoning behind my recruitment as well, we need these exact kind of players to pull it off. the problem is, at this level, those players don’t tend to be particularly physically imposing, plus i’m trying to build the club up through developing players, which makes recruiting stronger players harder.

at least we are all right at the back. we barely concede any shots due to having 60%+ possession, and my players are perfectly suited to play a high line at this level. the problem is, once we get to the final third we hit a brick wall. what i have found is that my attacking players get shrugged off the ball far too easily and we are unable to create coherent attacking sequences (at least we are great at winning the ball back and keeping up the pressure). 

19 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

When they sit deep and compact, I stretch the pitch wide, lower the tempo and hit crosses early w/high lines. Stretching the pitch pulls them out of their structure, pinning the fullbacks wide and creates gaps to exploit. They'll struggle with overloading, inside runs from deep. "Hit crosses early" can help launch your crosses before the defenders get set in shape and the low tempo helps you patiently break them down. 

thanks! this was my understanding on how to break down a deep block, i'm just having trouble on how to implement this ideas into my tactic without sacrificing too much of our play style. for example, i want my AM to roam around and help progress the ball depending on what flank the ball is being played. this creates overloads of 5 to 6 players near the ball, usually leaving either the opposite wide player or the wing back on a 1v1. 

A few ideas i have tried with varying degrees of success:

-switching the IW to attack

-playing around with the striker role (still can’t decide if it’s better for this purpose for him to drop deep and help in possession or to constantly push and disrupt the back line)

-changing the REG to a SV on attack, or alternatively, switching him to a half back and having two CWB

of course, this haven’t worked that well since we are still yet to score an open play goal since our losing run started

 

[Cloud9]

38 minutes ago, ivosaurio said:

thanks for the tips! here is my tactic, hopefully it helps

thanks! that’s actually the default setting of my tactic. the idea is to play as “relationist” as the ME will allow, this means, relying on the creativity of my players, having them playing as close to each other as possible to keep possession and advance the ball through quick interchanges and carries. that is the reasoning behind my recruitment as well, we need these exact kind of players to pull it off. the problem is, at this level, those players don’t tend to be particularly physically imposing, plus i’m trying to build the club up through developing players, which makes recruiting stronger players harder.

at least we are all right at the back. we barely concede any shots due to having 60%+ possession, and my players are perfectly suited to play a high line at this level. the problem is, once we get to the final third we hit a brick wall. what i have found is that my attacking players get shrugged off the ball far too easily and we are unable to create coherent attacking sequences (at least we are great at winning the ball back and keeping up the pressure). 

thanks! this was my understanding on how to break down a deep block, i'm just having trouble on how to implement this ideas into my tactic without sacrificing too much of our play style. for example, i want my AM to roam around and help progress the ball depending on what flank the ball is being played. this creates overloads of 5 to 6 players near the ball, usually leaving either the opposite wide player or the wing back on a 1v1. 

A few ideas i have tried with varying degrees of success:

-switching the IW to attack

-playing around with the striker role (still can’t decide if it’s better for this purpose for him to drop deep and help in possession or to constantly push and disrupt the back line)

-changing the REG to a SV on attack, or alternatively, switching him to a half back and having two CWB

of course, this haven’t worked that well since we are still yet to score an open play goal since our losing run started

 

Oo okay so the big problem here is that you're got too many fancy roles and roamers, need some structure and industry in the spine of the team there. 4 playmakers & 6 roamers will cause you major problems.

I would start with your double pivot, which is the core of your setup.

• SV is very good for breaking down defenses. I would recommend a DM(s) w/hold position + a SV(s).
• If you're on a losing streak, a DLP(s) BWM(d) is another reliable option to consider and will give the platform for an AP to roam in front of them. The playmakers are then in different thirds of the pitch and operate independently (one to recycle possession, the other to pick out cute passes in the final third). 

Try to half the roamers you're running and cut the playmakers down to 2. That will give you the foundation you'll need when making tactical changes to take apart the opposition. You mention'd your squad is lacking physicality so you might want to dip into the market for a couple really big and mean units. 

Edited August 21, 2023 by Cloud9

[Johnny Ace]

Holy smokes @ivosaurio  That looks fun! 

I'm surprised you're so defensively sound with a double roaming pivot but fair play 

@Cloud9 covers you on the playmakers, 1-2 max is the usual amount that is advised, I'm not saying you can't use 4 but look at all of your roles that are roaming and/or playing risky passes. BPD, CWB, REG, RPM, AP, TREQ & CF. It looks a bit much and makes the tactic ultra risky overall, but that's not the issue here 

I think it's maybe you have too much roaming going on, at the extreme end of things and there's a lack of positional discipline throughout the tactic. Players with great Off the Ball, Anticipation are naturally good at finding pockets without a full on roaming role and you have the Be More Expressive TI which is basically telling your players to find space and do a bit more of what they want to open up chances

For me I would basically

For pivot, change the RPM to a DLP(S) at DM and the Reg to a Volante(S), that loses a Playmaker, helps secure the left hand side to let the CWB roam and gives you a ball shuttler on the right who will have the right FB in close support

Upfront, AP(S) to AM for one less playmaker, add whatever PIs he's good at. The wide TREQ(A) to IW to give you one less roamer/risky passer to help keep the ball and do the simple stuff. Even a Winger here might be worth a try, he'll have the Volante on his inside channel and he can help out on the wide right to give width on that side   

[ejleal]

What i would do is to lower your high dline ( much higher to only higher) in order to open up space. If the problem persists maybe change to balanced mentality to see how you do. 

Edited August 21, 2023 by ejleal

[ivosaurio]

thanks to everyone for your input!

15 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

Holy smokes @ivosaurio  That looks fun! 

I'm surprised you're so defensively sound with a double roaming pivot but fair play 

i was surprised as well lol, but i think it works because we are one of the top teams in the league. we keep so much possession against the rest of the league that all they can do is hoof the ball, but as i said, my CB are fairly decent with balls over the top or through passes, they get so many interceptions per match. 

looking at the match reports of the matches since our bad run started, i think the biggest problem is finishing, because we are creating some really good chances but we can’t score them to save our lives. to be fair, in the match against AC Horsens, their keeper had an insane 13 saves or something like that, but we still lacked the finishing. in the AGF match, they played with a 5-3-2 deep block(most teams play this way against me), and it is where i discovered that our inability to break them down was heavily influenced by the physical disparity.

i know that the best solution is just to recruit stronger players, but that’s not possible until january, so i need something more immediate. i really like your suggestions, but i feel like changing too much the double pivot isn’t the right approach, because their ability to roam is what makes this tactic tick. they are all over the pitch, helping with ball progression, plus having them “clump” together is intentional, helps with the overloads and best approaches the real life style i want to emulate. having said that, im open to changing the REG, either to a SV on support for those deeper runs, or something more halfback-y and complement it with a role change somewhere else, and i would like to see what my players with great playmaking attributes can do with that deeper position. 

also, i would like to know what do you think on the striker dilemma, should i make him drop deeper or basically have him as P or AF with early crosses? none of my strikers cant compete aerially, but they are really good mentally (high anticipation, determination, etc) 

btw, i know that this is a really risky approach, and im happy with that, because it produces some great football and we are way better than the rest of the league, so why not? tho, since the fiorentina loss, i have decided to use a more conservative tactic for the champions league, and it worked wonders against shakhtar! just to make sure you dont think im crazy lol

[Dreambuilder]

On 20/08/2023 at 05:40, Cloud9 said:

When they sit deep and compact, I stretch the pitch wide, lower the tempo and hit crosses early w/high lines. Stretching the pitch pulls them out of their structure, pinning the fullbacks wide and creates gaps to exploit. They'll struggle with overloading, inside runs from deep. "Hit crosses early" can help launch your crosses before the defenders get set in shape and the low tempo helps you patiently break them down. 

You can then up the tempo in sections of the match, and target specific weak areas of their defence. 

Interesting. What do the lower tempo do?

[Johnny Ace]

2 hours ago, Dreambuilder said:

Interesting. What do the lower tempo do?

Allows your players more time on the ball before they make a decision 

It looks like you're getting FMed in the none traditional sense @ivosaurio  But it's difficult to tell without seeing the match stats from those games, I aim for around 0.10XG per chance, so 1.0XG for 10 shots, if I'm hitting under that for a run of games, I have a look at things, if I'm over, everything's fine

If you're happy with your "base" or bottom half of the tactic, I'll just talk a bit about the top half 

Can you post up the profiles of your 4 attacking players? I know it's a lot ask but it will allow to see what we're dealing with here. From the screenie, 2 of the 4 are 2.5* rated which I class as useful squad players. These players need to be of good quality for the role they're given to help create the chances and score goals

8 hours ago, ivosaurio said:

also, i would like to know what do you think on the striker dilemma, should i make him drop deeper or basically have him as P or AF with early crosses? none of my strikers cant compete aerially, but they are really good mentally (high anticipation, determination, etc) 

CF is quite a physical role, the player needs to win aerial balls and hold off defenders, he's rated well there but it would be useful to see his profile as you don't rate him in the air

I don't think a P or AF will help you out here, you'll be pushing and pressing high up the pitch, these roles need space in behind the backline to make their runs, so a roaming/drop off type role would probably be more beneficial. I'm actually thinking a Trequarista up front could serve you well here. Even though it's an Attack duty only role, it's still a really creative role over goal scoring so I would looks for a more goal scoring role from wide or AM    

8 hours ago, ivosaurio said:

i know that the best solution is just to recruit stronger players, but that’s not possible until january, so i need something more immediate.

 

Absolutely agree, every great technical team will have a least 2/3 physical players 

[Cloud9]

8 hours ago, Dreambuilder said:

Interesting. What do the lower tempo do?

High tempo plays into a compact blocks hands in many ways, lowering the tempo lets you control possession w/out turnovers and w/out getting exhausted while the opposition stays relatively fresh. Most important it gives you time to probe and pull the back line open to make spaces for those runs. 

It also provides you an extra gear to shift up to for parts of the match. 

[Johnny Ace]

9 minutes ago, Cloud9 said:

It also provides you an extra gear to shift up to for parts of the match. 

It's a highly effective TI tool and most players that get "FMed" are using the higher end of the tempo spectrum. You can create a ridiculous amount of chances at goal and it should be ringing alarm bells if you've had 20 attempts in 45 minutes at 0-0 

Starting out at a Higher Tempo then lowering it as the half goes on and then tweaking it based off of the scoreline can be a fun way to play. At higher tempos you can hit teams before they fully get back into defensive shape, once they sort that out, slow it down and frustrate them