RB Salzburg 4312 vs deep blocks

[craiigman]

I like to play as Salzburg to get a feeling of the ME as the dominant team in the league, as it shows how the AI tries to deal with the disparity between teams. I was about to make a post in the feedback thread, but figured why not ask for tactical advice first. I will start off by saying I'm not "struggling" for results nessessarily

But what I do find is complete domination in all stats, and yet lots of low scoring games and the opposition scoring with their first or second shot of the game. Fairly standard complaint to see on the forums I know. But then I look into the general advice that's given in these situations and find you get one of the following:

Too aggresive: You're boxing them in, not creating any space.

Too patient: You're allowing them to get back into position and not exploiting the space.

What I've noticed in game trying both approaches, almost identical stats and results. So I try to build a more middle ground tactic, and it's almost identical as well. Here's a few of the systems I have tried so far:

All have their pros and cons I am sure. And I have tweaked each in game when I am seeing things that aren't working. Reason for a 4312 is because it's what Salzburg play IRL and I've looked up some of their tactical analysis online and have tried to not replicate completely, but at least cover the key principles of the system. But again all the systems are running into the same issues.

So looking for any suggestions on breaking down these compact teams with a 4312.

[craiigman]

I also replicated this tactic in the 4312 system as well since Celtic are in a similar position in terms of dominating the league:

Same sort of thing

[kevhamster]

6 minutes ago, craiigman said:

I also replicated this tactic in the 4312 system as well since Celtic are in a similar position in terms of dominating the league:

Same sort of thing

Never thought I'd see my own tactic being used by someone else.  I feel all clever now lol.

[craiigman]

7 minutes ago, kevhamster said:

Never thought I'd see my own tactic being used by someone else.  I feel all clever now lol.

the principles are all there, made sense to me when I saw it (was also why I asked you in the first place haha)

[craiigman]

@Rashidi I know you have had much success with a 4312 in the past, how would you approach this type of thing?

[Johnny Ace]

I like 1 with Wingbacks 

Would probably have them both on Support to get in the early crosses to what I assume is your big man, the TF/ DFF guy you have, would probably just go for an AM(S) too

I might have to try a save with them 

[craiigman]

22 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

I like 1 with Wingbacks 

Would probably have them both on Support to get in the early crosses to what I assume is your big man, the TF/ DFF guy you have, would probably just go for an AM(S) too

I might have to try a save with them 

They are blessed with some big men up top for sure. After playing so far Roko Simic defo going on my shortlist at other teams

 

if you do give them ago, let us know how you’re getting on and your setup

Edited October 27, 2023 by craiigman

[Johnny Ace]

47 minutes ago, craiigman said:

if you do give them ago, let us know how you’re getting on and your setup

Will do  Not often you find a fun team suitable for narrow formations, I like big guy upfront too 

[craiigman]

Figured I would come back to this with how got on, have 3 games left of the season but have now won the league. Final tactic, there's a few PI's as well:

Results following the loss in inital post:

Some big gaps in the fixtures in December and January so did do some friendlies against small teams to keep fitness up for the restart. Champions League didn't go well drew 2, lost 4. One of the draws I was 3-0 up..

Tactic has had some tweaks along the way and the TF(A) does change, but is always an attack duty. Support duty means the AP gets too crowded out. On a few occasions the strikers weren't playing well at all and I ended up with a 4321 shape instead. Roko Simic was on 22 goals and 9 assists before a 6-9 month injury which was just before the 0-0 with LASK and it threw me off. After that though another striker (Konate) decided to finally turn up and score some goals.

Scored some really nice goals, more in line with what I was expecting to begin with. During the big break I actually bothered with some real squad planning and training setups and let some players leave. Ultimately I think the Salzburg team isn't as strong as previous years (as seen IRL) and maybe I expected too much from them. But at the same time think the tactical tweaks did help.

[craiigman]

oh and AP(S) to AM(S) if being marked out the game

[Dimitris14]

I am not the best tactician but I have to say this tactic is confusing me,you are pressing very aggresively but you dont aim to keep possesion(pass into space,standard passing) nor do you aim to attack quickly (lower tempo,no counter) and no counter-press,what is your aim when you have the ball?

[craiigman]

8 hours ago, Dimitris14 said:

I am not the best tactician but I have to say this tactic is confusing me,you are pressing very aggresively but you dont aim to keep possesion(pass into space,standard passing) nor do you aim to attack quickly (lower tempo,no counter) and no counter-press,what is your aim when you have the ball?

A more balanced approach, which seems to have worked. When I played too possession based we created nothing, when I played quickly just meant losing the ball to deep blocks.

Play out of defence + lower tempo keeps the ball well, pass into space encourages through balls to the attacking forwards but since not using more direct passing it’s not constant. The team shape also helps with keeping the ball, players are all close to each other. High press is to win the ball back and harass but counter press was too much.

Like I say it was a lot of of trial and error but if it works it works and results been speaking for themselves and the football has been great, lots of team goals.

My guess is that it’s allowing the roles to play a bigger impact and lets the players be the ones to make the decisions on when to press and what type of passes to make.

[craiigman]

I do agree that it doesn’t look right just from the instructions as there isn’t a “style of play”

[Bitner]

I don't like a playmaker as AMC, he could be more of a threat and free roaming player than just a playmaker who passes the ball. FOR ME, either he's an enganche, fully stationary, or he'll be more mobile and search for scoring opportunities himself.

Having one of the 2 strikers supporting wouldn't be better to bring the CM-A in on the act?

Cheers,
Bitner 

[craiigman]

1 hour ago, Bitner said:

I don't like a playmaker as AMC, he could be more of a threat and free roaming player than just a playmaker who passes the ball. FOR ME, either he's an enganche, fully stationary, or he'll be more mobile and search for scoring opportunities himself.

Having one of the 2 strikers supporting wouldn't be better to bring the CM-A in on the act?

Cheers,
Bitner 

Have now dropped the AP to AM with a few PI's. Have tried an attack duty a few times with a supporting striker but wasn't working

[Bitner]

Ever tried the Trequartista role? could be useful paired with a PF-S

Cheers,
Bitner 

[寸身辛木]

4312 or any narrow systems are intrinsically flawed in this game. I am a fan of Italian football legacies. These asymmetrical narrow formations have been the pearls of football tactics. No winger means everyone can appear on the flanks, especially the number 10 player. In this game, however, a narrow formation means that wingbacks take care of everything on the flanks, which is ugly.

[craiigman]

Since my panned J League save isn’t ready to go, I decided to just start a Salzburg save again with more leagues loads and take a bit more time with off the field stuff. Even made the same signings. Tactic started off well, and now it’s gone back to how it was at the start of my first save. Tactical familiarity is full. Team morale is good. 
 

Tried a Treq with a PF(s) but average positions had 3-4 players bunched up. Not seeing any of the build up play I was seeing before either. Something is off though. Any suggestions?

[Poison]

On 05/11/2023 at 07:22, 寸身辛木 said:

4312 or any narrow systems are intrinsically flawed in this game. I am a fan of Italian football legacies. These asymmetrical narrow formations have been the pearls of football tactics. No winger means everyone can appear on the flanks, especially the number 10 player. In this game, however, a narrow formation means that wingbacks take care of everything on the flanks, which is ugly.

If you instruct the no 10 to roam he will go to the flanks, same for the other midfielders with stay wider instruction.

[寸身辛木]

2 hours ago, Poison said:

If you instruct the no 10 to roam he will go to the flanks, same for the other midfielders with stay wider instruction.

No, they just don’t. It’s absolutely necessary for the No.10 player or the mezzala to support/overlap/overload the flanks during build ups. Sitting in the half spaces is different from actively supporting the flanks. Think about how Kaka or Valverde plays. Currently you only see the striker on the same side come offer support on the flanks very reluctantly, before moving to central areas again. And yes, the striker is not moving enough either.

[craiigman]

8 hours ago, Poison said:

If you instruct the no 10 to roam he will go to the flanks, same for the other midfielders with stay wider instruction.

 

5 hours ago, 寸身辛木 said:

No, they just don’t. It’s absolutely necessary for the No.10 player or the mezzala to support/overlap/overload the flanks during build ups. Sitting in the half spaces is different from actively supporting the flanks. Think about how Kaka or Valverde plays. Currently you only see the striker on the same side come offer support on the flanks very reluctantly, before moving to central areas again. And yes, the striker is not moving enough either.

Interestingly I saw my wide cm’s in the wide areas often before, AM not as much. But since restarting my save I don’t see it anywhere near as much.

Very strange since the ME is the same

[寸身辛木]

3 hours ago, craiigman said:

 

Interestingly I saw my wide cm’s in the wide areas often before, AM not as much. But since restarting my save I don’t see it anywhere near as much.

Very strange since the ME is the same

Generally APs have a bigger area to roam than Mezzala or carillero, yet still nothing near the expected Valverde movement. If you use a WM instead, he won’t come narrow enough, also the defensive shape is nasty. My alternative is to always use asymmetrical formations. Actually I never used symmetrical formations these years. This is never going to change if SI doesn’t kill the barrier between MC and ML/R, AMC and AML/R.