[FM24.3] Saudi Pro League

[themodelcitizen]

Back for 2024, the premium Saudi Pro League database for FM intends to capture as realistic an experience as possible within the constraints of FM24.

I'm starting from scratch and copying over any relevant changes from FM23 by eye, so give me a day or two. Hopefully, they've cleaned up features like the All-Star game so we can do something like the All-Star game they had last year for Riyadh Season.

Will be interesting to see if having a playable league in Saudi (plus or minus any financial adjustments) will affect the (slightly unrealistic) spending spree that people are reporting in the game so far.

DOWNLOAD (BETA)
Note that AI transfers in Saudi DBs are sadly broken after a year or two (see below)

Spoiler

Edited March 7 by themodelcitizen

[themodelcitizen]

Link in OP updated. Could use some testing, will run a long-term one this weekend but everything seems to be working so far

[Vakama2619]

Just adding the top 2 leagues again? Had the T4 Tenshi one so far but will defo switch to this on full release

[themodelcitizen]

8 hours ago, Vakama2619 said:

Just adding the top 2 leagues again? Had the T4 Tenshi one so far but will defo switch to this on full release

Probably. Last year no one ever sent me sufficient info about D3 in English to get anything close to realistic. Plus it's a lot of work for what I'm guessing is mostly semi-pro at that level (they don't even let them in the cup the last couple of years)

[themodelcitizen]

7 hours ago, Curtains-2720 said:

Hey mate @themodelcitizen, great mod. How is the edition going ? Do you notice any major difference compared to FM23, notable with the Saudi spending spree and huge salaries now already coded by SI in the game ? Just curious

Won't have time to run a solid test yet, someone should do so and post screenshots of the big teams' transfer activity for the first few years

[Vakama2619]

Can I also get a mediafire link here as I can't download through steam, or will that come with the full release?

[themodelcitizen]

Yeah sorry here it is. Just the top tier for now

[themodelcitizen]

Doing some simming and the big clubs are still offloading way too many Saudi players (that they need for squad rules) whenever they can. This has severely dampened my appetite for moving forward with any projects from the region, all my testing in FM23 couldn't come up with a suitable way to make clubs prioritize keeping a big squad of domestics, and making sure those domestics are (mostly) happy with occasional playing time

[Jorgen]

2 hours ago, themodelcitizen said:

Doing some simming and the big clubs are still offloading way too many Saudi players (that they need for squad rules) whenever they can. This has severely dampened my appetite for moving forward with any projects from the region, all my testing in FM23 couldn't come up with a suitable way to make clubs prioritize keeping a big squad of domestics, and making sure those domestics are (mostly) happy with occasional playing time

I know that Daveincid's realism fix has done something with the Saudi transfers too. Perhaps you could look into his files to see if there is a solution. (I don't know, as I only use yours)

[themodelcitizen]

2 hours ago, Curtains-2720 said:

Damn, that's rough

It's brutal, totally immersion-breaking when you're like "wait why did Al-Hilal lose 3-0 at home to Al-Adalah in the second season" and it's because they're playing a 16-year old centre-back after selling any domestic cover they had.

In 2026 the homegrown rules kick in, which could be great because the "homegrown" data is filled out for most Saudi players already (their research team is brilliant). The only problem is that teams have sacked anyone who would fit by then, and then ignore the rule anyway.

I've tried massaging the roster rules to have "minimum Saudis" and stuff but they ignore that too.

I'm dying for a solution so any ideas are welcome. Feel like I should put them all at a fake club (Sports Ministry?) and loan them to the top teams with no recall/termination for their entire contract lengths but that's a last resort.

1 hour ago, Jorgen said:

I know that Daveincid's realism fix has done something with the Saudi transfers too. Perhaps you could look into his files to see if there is a solution. (I don't know, as I only use yours)

Link? I can see in his "transfer preferences" he changed some of the Saudi nation's nation/continent preferences but nothing with how it treats its own players

[Jorgen]

1 hour ago, themodelcitizen said:

It's brutal, totally immersion-breaking when you're like "wait why did Al-Hilal lose 3-0 at home to Al-Adalah in the second season" and it's because they're playing a 16-year old centre-back after selling any domestic cover they had.

In 2026 the homegrown rules kick in, which could be great because the "homegrown" data is filled out for most Saudi players already (their research team is brilliant). The only problem is that teams have sacked anyone who would fit by then, and then ignore the rule anyway.

I've tried massaging the roster rules to have "minimum Saudis" and stuff but they ignore that too.

I'm dying for a solution so any ideas are welcome. Feel like I should put them all at a fake club (Sports Ministry?) and loan them to the top teams with no recall/termination for their entire contract lengths but that's a last resort.

Link? I can see in his "transfer preferences" he changed some of the Saudi nation's nation/continent preferences but nothing with how it treats its own players

Hmmm... just read through his topic (searching for Saudi) and I guess he did optimize the transfer preferences so that Saudi clubs buy European star players, but I haven't found anything that says he did something with the players with Saudi nationality too. 

[themodelcitizen]

Absent any work-around, the way the AI handles squad-building is fundamentally incompatible with the setup in the Gulf leagues where it's high-rep foreigners along with best-available domestics. Usually AI squad-building is a mess by the second or third season in leagues like MLS and Australia but it's in overdrive here

[Jorgen]

4 hours ago, themodelcitizen said:

Absent any work-around, the way the AI handles squad-building is fundamentally incompatible with the setup in the Gulf leagues where it's high-rep foreigners along with best-available domestics. Usually AI squad-building is a mess by the second or third season in leagues like MLS and Australia but it's in overdrive here

I think you can definitely mention this topic in the bugs/issues forums. Who knows, SI can do something about it in the next patch round so that the USA, Australia and the Middle East function better

[kandersson]

12 hours ago, Jorgen said:

I think you can definitely mention this topic in the bugs/issues forums. Who knows, SI can do something about it in the next patch round so that the USA, Australia and the Middle East function better

I wouldn't hold my breath... MLS and A-League have been virtually unplayable for over a decade now, and they're fully licensed leagues. Gulf leagues aren't even available as official playable leagues so wouldn't expect much improvement.

[themodelcitizen]

Yeah they won't change anything to support created leagues.

And agreed, I use to love starting unemployed in D4 USA or Canada (closest thing a real manager's path for someone in my position IRL) but MLS is such a mess by the third or fourth season it's really only suitable as a start to your career. Play a couple of seasons, then move to Mexico/Europe/S. America. Sadly the Gulf leagues don't even last that long before the big teams' rosters implode

[Wolf_pd]

Any chance that club vision or owners can help in this?

[rusty217]

heh, good to see it's not just me having these issues. Simmed a Saudi league I made into the 2040s and 2 of the big 4 had dropped down to the 3rd tier. They were still getting like 300m a year in "grants" so it just confused me as to why. Guess now I know it was just terrible AI squad building. Improved squad building something that's supposed to be worked on as updates to the game anyway, right? So maybe there's some slim hope it'll get better with patches anyway.

[themodelcitizen]

Doubt they care enough for custom leagues. Anything they adjust might have knock-on effects in leagues that are actually licensed, so as long as transfer AI is (barely) passable there, the status quo reigns.

I *think* the problem is simply that the big clubs decide these players aren't good enough and sell them/don't sign them, with the sort of game logic that they'll  find suitable domestic players as a replacement (and in England, or Brazil, they would). Here, though, there are very few (Al-Dawsari et al), so they just leave those roster spots blank.

I'm working on a realistic US pyramid for now, might come back to this at some point

 

[Jorgen]

Well, if we don't mention it, again and again, we can be sure nothing will change. If we do, then it might get SI's attention. With Messi in MLS and Ronaldo in Saudi-Arabia it will be noticed by a lot more FM players.

[Makoto Nakamura]

I've been doing a Saudi youth only challenge over on FMCU, 9 seasons in and I've decided I'm not going to carry on due to the AI's squad building, Al-Ittihad are currently mid-table in the 2nd tier with a salary of £186m per year, Al-Hilal are 5th, Al-Ahli 12th and Al-Nassr 15th in the top tier.

EDIT: I probably should clarify that this isn't with this database though! 

Edited November 15, 2023 by Makoto Nakamura

[themodelcitizen]

1 hour ago, Makoto Nakamura said:

I've been doing a Saudi youth only challenge over on FMCU, 9 seasons in and I've decided I'm not going to carry on due to the AI's squad building, Al-Ittihad are currently mid-table in the 2nd tier with a salary of £186m per year, Al-Hilal are 5th, Al-Ahli 12th and Al-Nassr 15th in the top tier.

EDIT: I probably should clarify that this isn't with this database though! 

Even with the Gulf Player Fix file I haven't been able to counter it that much. Funnily enough by programming in Al-Ittihad and Al-Hilal's transfer ban last year (only lasted until winter 2022) I delayed it by a few months, lol, but the exodus is real and starts as soon as they can. It seems to be a fundamental issue with how the AI handles its squad given how quickly they turn them into "surplus to requirements". So even controlling their transfer behaviour would be a band-aid I think, we need to somehow convince them that keeping a solid stable of domestics is crucial in its own right.

[Vakama2619]

Yeah having a little test sim myself and this is the league table about to enter January 2024. Al Ittihad could probably be relegated already and Al Nassr were actually relegated and promoted instantly

[kertheh]

Hi I am ahppy to help if I come across anything.

 

Can you help me create the Lebanese league(s)?  where can i find Editor Tutorial?

 

[oche balboa]

Cant you add a rule where a number of Over 21's domestic players have to be in the match squad? Perhaps this could help 

[themodelcitizen]

I don't think that's actually an option (lots of under-21 type rules though), but I imagine they would just get confused. I swore I read on here once that AI looked to "match rules" to affect their transfer strategy (but not overall season rules) hence all my redundant entries, although I haven't really seen that established in practice

[UnitedJoshdom]

On 15/11/2023 at 20:11, themodelcitizen said:

Even with the Gulf Player Fix file I haven't been able to counter it that much. Funnily enough by programming in Al-Ittihad and Al-Hilal's transfer ban last year (only lasted until winter 2022) I delayed it by a few months, lol, but the exodus is real and starts as soon as they can. It seems to be a fundamental issue with how the AI handles its squad given how quickly they turn them into "surplus to requirements". So even controlling their transfer behaviour would be a band-aid I think, we need to somehow convince them that keeping a solid stable of domestics is crucial in its own right.

How does it work in places like Malaysia or India that has the same disparity between the foreign and local talent? Surely you could make it work the same as that?

[themodelcitizen]

Go ahead and test and release a fix, would love to see it working. Guessing it's either just as broken there (people report that the AI in leagues like MLS and Australia is broken after a couple of years too), or the effects aren't as pronounced because it's a much higher calibre of players they've made the AI target here.

The bulk of the work goes into big leagues like England and Germany, if situations like this are a casualty of the algorithm then so be it, not like they'd change it up for a small minority of players

EDIT: I wonder if there's a way to change up the entire contract structure to use some of the pre-defined types from, like, MLS or Australia. If the AI might be more likely to keep "senior internationals" around instead of just full-time players. Might be worth some testing

Edited November 17, 2023 by themodelcitizen

[oche balboa]

An idea (Which isn't realistic) 

Create a cup competition but use it only for Saudi players, The AI would then try and pick these players during league games creating a better simulation 

[themodelcitizen]

Go on? If they're in an active comp with certain squad rules do they plan for that? If you can run a test on FM23 or 24 it might be worth it. Maybe it could even be set as a stage that never actually sets up so isn't played

[dannyrefc]

if one was to just remove the 8 foreign player limit from the saudi league (if possible) would the AI behave then? just to be able to play the league for a couple years you think that is do able

[themodelcitizen]

Guessing that just refers to the crazy transfers they were going for in Europe. I'd be surprised if the second one actually helped but it's intriguing, I think the solution is to run a long-term test and post your findings. In the absence of concrete evidence it's not worth my time, I put way too many hours into these mods last year only for them to be largely unplayable after 1 season

[dino88]

Hi, is this still Beta mode?

[themodelcitizen]

Saudi transfer AI is extra-broken this year, I can't do a full release. More likely to remove it completely or take the TMC name off

[Yazeed86]

I think its got to do with any Saudi club that has a “foreground” owner , when i change it to “background” it almost fine , but no more big name signings , would be cool if SI can fix that 

[CLS]

Might mess around in the Editor and see if it works better if you just go a bit fantasy and change the rules. E.g.

a) Remove minimum domestic player requirements entirely - should work but a big departure from reality. Or

b) Count some nations as non-foreign to Saudi Arabia. In order of impact that could be other Gulf states, other Arab states, other Sunni-majority states, other Muslim states, or the whole of Africa and Asia. Doesn't seem entirely unrealistic that they'd seek to promote players from across the region and might give a large enough pool for the genius transfer AI not to go completely wrong.

Edited December 29, 2023 by CLS

[Socerer 01]

On 26/12/2023 at 15:02, Yazeed86 said:

I think its got to do with any Saudi club that has a “foreground” owner , when i change it to “background” it almost fine , but no more big name signings , would be cool if SI can fix that 

 

This is it, made a few other teams have foreground owner and they started signing big players for millions too. They didn't neglect their domestic players to the extent of the big clubs though.

[Pablo Sanchez]

is this good to go yet?

[Vakama2619]

I beleve TMC has given up on this due to the AI's inability to build a squad while following all league rules

[Pablo Sanchez]

oh right lol thats a shame  

[samrnpage]

It happens in lots of leagues that you make now - I had a problem with Ghana and all sorts. Maybe SI have put it in on purpose due to licencing? 

[rusty217]

18 hours ago, samrnpage said:

It happens in lots of leagues that you make now - I had a problem with Ghana and all sorts. Maybe SI have put it in on purpose due to licencing? 

The AI has always been bad at squad building, there's no conspiracy here. It's just usually the rich/high rep clubs either have access to plenty of high rep domestic/EU players, pretty loose registration requirements, or both, so you don't notice it.

Even in Saudi it's only really an issue with the big 4 teams. The non-sugar daddy teams there can and do still build pretty balanced squads because they're not exclusively looking for very high rep players.

[themodelcitizen]

Yep the crazy Saudi big 4 behaviour they've implemented (so they interact with European transfer markets a certain way) means any Saudi DB is unplayable. Obviously they don't care, they're not gonna mess with the algorithm just to help with a created league (even though a bunch of them were using my files last year). Any fix so far just nerfs the big 4 transfer activity which is kind of the whole point of playing in Saudi. Won't be maintaining or updating the file this year as a result 

[oche balboa]

On 08/01/2024 at 20:26, themodelcitizen said:

Yep the crazy Saudi big 4 behaviour they've implemented (so they interact with European transfer markets a certain way) means any Saudi DB is unplayable. Obviously they don't care, they're not gonna mess with the algorithm just to help with a created league (even though a bunch of them were using my files last year). Any fix so far just nerfs the big 4 transfer activity which is kind of the whole point of playing in Saudi. Won't be maintaining or updating the file this year as a result 

The way round it is a fictitious competition where they have to play all Saudis. Then the AI will pick them in matches going forward.  

[asapas]

Hello. When you say that AI transfers are broken in Saudi Arabian db after 2 years, means that AI doesn't do ANY transfers between teams after 2 years????? If yes, is it the case with the specific file, or generally?

[Jorgen]

5 hours ago, asapas said:

Hello. When you say that AI transfers are broken in Saudi Arabian db after 2 years, means that AI doesn't do ANY transfers between teams after 2 years????? If yes, is it the case with the specific file, or generally?

As far as I know this means that the Saudi clubs forget to buy Saudi players, but they must field them anyway and so their squads are broken after a few years.