Southgate: Episode IV - A New Hope

[VP.]

[Bigwig]

Those first and last lineups are wild. 

[Citizen Sandman]

just wish Ancelotti would do it

[The_jagster]

Come on Rob, one last meme rating please

[skybluedave]

The Holy Trinity of Southgate

[SouthCoastRed]

1 hour ago, JJ72 said:

Meh. Good riddance to boring negative rubbish

There are times when you really are a grumpy miserable old knob

[JJ72]

2 minutes ago, SouthCoastRed said:

There are times when you really are a grumpy miserable old knob

Glad to be of service

[Coulthard's Jaw]

I know it's Ronay so we shouldn't expect much but I do find these takes the worst  The Southgate era has been amazing, doesn't mean you have to trash previous good England teams and managers. Both can be good!

[The_jagster]

13 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

I know it's Ronay so we shouldn't expect much but I do find these takes the worst  The Southgate era has been amazing, doesn't mean you have to trash previous good England teams and managers. Both can be good!

When Ronay speaks on podcasts he doesn't even think Southgate is that great

He just takes a slightly different position to the prevailing view and turns into the contrarian point of view, and that is something I just cannot get behind at all

Jonathan Wilson has the best take on this which is that a lot of tournament football is down to luck, especially the draw, so saying "they should make the semis" isn't really fair necessarily

[Rick87]

I expect in years to come, when we're back to being bundled out of tournaments in the last 16 or QF's by the likes of Iceland,  the Southgate era will be referred to much more fondly than it is presently. 

[Coulthard's Jaw]

2 minutes ago, The_jagster said:

When Ronay speaks on podcasts he doesn't even think Southgate is that great

He just takes a slightly different position to the prevailing view and turns into the contrarian point of view, and that is something I just cannot get behind at all

Jonathan Wilson has the best take on this which is that a lot of tournament football is down to luck, especially the draw, so saying "they should make the semis" isn't really fair necessarily

Genuinely if a couple of penalty shootouts go the other way we're talking about the 90s as a golden period for English football and how Gareth was yet another manager to fail to live up to it.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

2 minutes ago, Rick87 said:

I expect in years to come, when we're back to being bundled out of tournaments in the last 16 or QF's by the likes of Iceland,  the Southgate era will be referred to much more fondly than it is presently. 

I think Southgate is a victim of his own success isn't he?  18 and 21 there was a novelty to getting to where we got in the tournaments and filling out the wallchart right to the end was really fun. The last two tournaments have been really good in their own ways but we've seen it all before so you don't get that thrill again. I agree with you, in the not too distant future we will appreciate what a great job Southgate did.

Maybe I'm hanging out in the wrong places because I'm not really seeing the anger towards Southgate, think most people know how great he is.

[Vynal Seven]

1 minute ago, The_jagster said:

Jonathan Wilson has the best take on this which is that a lot of tournament football is down to luck, especially the draw, so saying "they should make the semis" isn't really fair necessarily

It becomes less and less about luck the better you are though. Which is why when you’ve got a group of players capable of making you one of the best teams you need a manager that doesn’t stifle them. 

This is the right time for Gareth to go. He’s done a good job and can be proud of his time in charge which has given us some of our best moments ever but the fact is that he’s taken this group of players as far as he can.

Of course, as I’m sure Rob will be keen to point out, there is no guarantee that the next manager will be able to take us any further (or even as far) but we’re ready to take that gamble. 

[eenie]

26 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

I know it's Ronay so we shouldn't expect much but I do find these takes the worst  The Southgate era has been amazing, doesn't mean you have to trash previous good England teams and managers. Both can be good!

Honestly Ronay is just the worst. A good writer but his opinions on football are almost universally terrible.

Liew is the same, except he's not clueless about football. He's clueless about all sports.

[Rick87]

2 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

I think Southgate is a victim of his own success isn't he?  18 and 21 there was a novelty to getting to where we got in the tournaments and filling out the wallchart right to the end was really fun. The last two tournaments have been really good in their own ways but we've seen it all before so you don't get that thrill again. I agree with you, in the not too distant future we will appreciate what a great job Southgate did.

Maybe I'm hanging out in the wrong places because I'm not really seeing the anger towards Southgate, think most people know how great he is.

I think most on here have a far more immersive football knowledge than the average Baz the builder who goes about calling every other country 'farmers leagues', and thus we can appreciate that winning International tournaments isn't as easy as just turning up because we have a handful of good players.

[Rob1981]

43 minutes ago, Rick87 said:

we can appreciate that winning International tournaments isn't as easy as just turning up because we have a handful of good players.

You have read these forums, right?  

[Coulthard's Jaw]

 

[Vynal Seven]

38 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

You have read these forums, right?  

I think 90% of the negativity towards Southgate on these forums is purely as a protest to counter balance your sycophancy. 

[Rob1981]

1 minute ago, Vynal Seven said:

I think 90% of the negativity towards Southgate on these forums is purely as a protest to counter balance your sycophancy. 

Is it though? Or maybe I only go so far the other way because I have to counter balance all the bollocks people talk.

It will be fun arguing about the new guy either way. I’m guessing he doesn’t do any better but people somehow decide it is OK next time around.

[GunmaN1905]

6 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

Is it though? Or maybe I only go so far the other way because I have to counter balance all the bollocks people talk.

It will be fun arguing about the new guy either way. I’m guessing he doesn’t do any better but people somehow decide it is OK next time around.

Time to switch it up, you need to take the antagonist role. 

[Constantine]

Rob's heel turn arc will be fun...

[themadsheep2001]

Maybe you dont have to counter balance, and just let people have their views

[themadsheep2001]

Think most people wanted Southgate to succeed. He's had mild criticism in the last year or so, and most of it fairly warranted on selection, and in the case of the Euros, how we played. Would have been nice if he could have refreshed himself one last time but he looked out of a plan by the end. Been a great 8 years, but sometimes change is needed. 

[TalkSport]

No way we drop off back to pre Southagte levels. If we did, it would be due to being on wrong side of the good ol penalty shootouts. Where with Colombia and Switzerland, we were on right side.

Spain in the their last 4 tournaments have been knocked out 3 times by pens and won one, along with getting to nations league finals 2 out of 3. Probably been quite consistent with their level of performances in game over that time, and will be where we are for rest of this decade of the talent pool. 

Edited July 16 by TalkSport

[adhikapp]

No chance England regress after Southgate gone - and has nothing to with Southgate. Theyve enough good players in the country to finally win a World Cup/Euros, and enough players coming through the ranks who are gonna support it.

England's current generation feels a lot like Germany 2010-2016 where there seems to be another good young player every year to be a key player. Low wasn't even that good of a manager as well and I strongly believe that 2014 win was in spite of Low. Thought Southgate would've done similar in the final, but it just wasn't meant to be.

[titchuk]

15 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Maybe you dont have to counter balance, and just let people have their views

I don't think Bellingham should be played in central midfield!!! Oh, wait...

[themadsheep2001]

I dont think we'll regress, which i think is testament to the foundation Southgate put in

[sc91]

Sometimes a manager/coach goes as far as they can go, and someone else is needed to pick up the reins and complete the job.

Top of my head, it's like the Eagles under Andy Reid, no matter what happened they just couldn't get over the line, someone else came in, used the nucleus (near enough) and got them the maiden win.

It's also why it is an appealing job for any manager with an eye to international management, England has all the components in place, to the point that even the reserves are players of quality. 

Rather than the 90s/00s when you were crap, the reality is that with England it's a case of when you'll win one, not if. 

 

[VamPook]

7 hours ago, EnterUsernameHere said:

Was hoping he stayed. Specialist in failure.

But he is staying 

[EnterUsernameHere]

From what I can see, most of the criticism (from myself included) about Southgate comes from people who don't support England but are baffled at how much of an easy time he gets. Plays terrible football and loses when he gets a tough draw, but gets heavily praised.

Aside from a few England fans on here, I'd say he's generally supported.

[themadsheep2001]

11 minutes ago, sc91 said:

Sometimes a manager/coach goes as far as they can go, and someone else is needed to pick up the reins and complete the job.

Top of my head, it's like the Eagles under Andy Reid, no matter what happened they just couldn't get over the line, someone else came in, used the nucleus (near enough) and got them the maiden win.

It's also why it is an appealing job for any manager with an eye to international management, England has all the components in place, to the point that even the reserves are players of quality. 

Rather than the 90s/00s when you were crap, the reality is that with England it's a case of when you'll win one, not if. 

 

This is it. He's actually turned the england job from a bit of a poisoned chalice to somethinf really desirable. Youve got a very strong squad of players, most still young, who are incredibly united and very talented, can play multiple types of football, have fans pretty much united behind them. There's so much to work with

[titchuk]

I don't think we'll go back to the dark days of not qualifying for tournaments, mostly because so many teams qualify nowadays that it's actually quite hard not too, but I don't think we'll have a record of 3 semis in 4 tournaments in future.

I said this earlier but while yes we do have a good core of young players who will get better, and some good midfielders coming through, I'm slightly concerned about who is coming through in other positions, particularly centre forward. 

[Coulthard's Jaw]

12 minutes ago, titchuk said:

I said this earlier but while yes we do have a good core of young players who will get better, and some good midfielders coming through, I'm slightly concerned about who is coming through in other positions, particularly centre forward. 

Kane is an all time legend, so obviously there is going to be a drop off, but other nations have had similar issues and managed to work around it. If you have enough quality in other areas you can cope.

[Rob1981]

12 minutes ago, sc91 said:

Rather than the 90s/00s when you were crap, the reality is that with England it's a case of when you'll win one, not if. 

Is it though? Think back to the late 90s and people would have been saying “it’s when not if” back then… just the same. And we definitely didn’t think we were crap at the time, we only became crap in the record books because the results didn’t materialise.

The Euro 96 squad included Gary Neville (21), Robbie Fowler [21], Sol Campbell [21], Redknapp [22], Mcmanaman [24], Shearer [25]… plus then the likes of Beckham, Scholes, Owen and Rio Ferdinand coming through to make their debuts between Euro 96 and France 98.

Imagine going back in time to 1996-97. After two semi finals in six years and with a load of emerging talent and with Glenn Hoddle as a cultured manager that had played overseas. Nobody would have believed they would be waiting until 2018 to see England in another semi final. But there was a ten-tournament run of: R16, Grp, QF, QF, QF, DNQ, R16, QF, Grp, R16.

We could easily go another half a dozen tournaments without reaching the last four again, whether we change the manager or not. You can’t take regular runs to semi finals and finals for granted.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

The Euro 96/World Cup 98 squads were exceptional. 

[The_jagster]

On 15/07/2024 at 15:45, titchuk said:

The Athletic had a big feature on England and around the atmosphere of the camp, Bellingham isn't criticised as such but reading between the lines...quotes here:

 

 

Appreciate this is upping a post from yesterday but the Irish podcast I listened to was openly laughing at either this article or a similar one.

I paraphrase but on a day off Bellingham went out with his family and was getting a crowd around him while sitting out at a bar/cafe in Erfurt centre.

"That Bellingham was the only player to attract a hubbub did not go unnoticed by his teammates."

[Coulthard's Jaw]

Bellingham is going to something we haven't quite seen in the England team before, better get used to it.

[eenie]

20 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

Bellingham is going to something we haven't quite seen in the England team before, better get used to it.

More so than Rooney?

[hairwad]

I'm already slightly nostalgic for the Southgate era. I believe he has changed the identity and approach of England from a team that is direct and panics and wilts under pressure to one which attempts a better passing style with the players comfortable on the stage.

A good example of this was the build up to the Watkins goal where we held onto the ball for more than a minute before the finish closing to the end of full time in a Euros semi final. It's that approach that has led to us having a better chance of going deep in tournaments.

I'm just wary we don't throw the progress away and revert to type no matter which manager we get in.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

4 minutes ago, eenie said:

More so than Rooney?

I think so yeah, he's going to be a star player at Real for as many years as he wants.

I'm actually not sure about saying more so because I don't know if that's going to be better than what Rooney was, but it's definitely different in a way we haven't seen.

[sc91]

32 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

Is it though? Think back to the late 90s and people would have been saying “it’s when not if” back then… just the same. And we definitely didn’t think we were crap at the time, we only became crap in the record books because the results didn’t materialise.

The Euro 96 squad included Gary Neville (21), Robbie Fowler [21], Sol Campbell [21], Redknapp [22], Mcmanaman [24], Shearer [25]… plus then the likes of Beckham, Scholes, Owen and Rio Ferdinand coming through to make their debuts between Euro 96 and France 98.

Imagine going back in time to 1996-97. After two semi finals in six years and with a load of emerging talent and with Glenn Hoddle as a cultured manager that had played overseas. Nobody would have believed they would be waiting until 2018 to see England in another semi final. But there was a ten-tournament run of: R16, Grp, QF, QF, QF, DNQ, R16, QF, Grp, R16.

We could easily go another half a dozen tournaments without reaching the last four again, whether we change the manager or not. You can’t take regular runs to semi finals and finals for granted.

Yeah it is, you were still having a league that was transitioning into the modern powerhouse that it is today, and had the overbearing influence of the domestic game that would spill into the national side, the stories of how split England were during those years along club lines echoed with how you had amazing individual players, but a pretty crap team.

Those days are gone, there's neither the malice/club rivalry spill over, generally as players just don't have that mentality amongst themselves anymore. You've got players who find genuine value in playing for England rather than a chore that ruining the title race.

On the same hand, no one would believe in 2016 if you said you'll reach two finals (and be within a whisker of winning it), a semi final and a quarter final all with Gareth Southgate at the helm.

And on the latter, I agree, you can't, but you can have the arrogance and swagger to demand it. Reality is that for the last four tournaments, England have been there for there abouts, there isn't going to be some massive tail off in player depth, England have a realively young squad and beyond that a likely conveyor belt of talent in the youth groups. 

So, yeah, outside looking in, this isn't England of those years, there is, at least in my eyes, an inevitability that they'll win something. Much like the German side under Low, or Spain during the all conquering Barcelona era, to me, it's when you win one, not if.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

The England split stuff is from the 2000s, the Venables/Hoddle tournaments had a really good team spirit by all accounts.

[eenie]

5 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

I think so yeah, he's going to be a star player at Real for as many years as he wants.

I'm actually not sure about saying more so because I don't know if that's going to be better than what Rooney was, but it's definitely different in a way we haven't seen.

I guess I'm just curious as to what exactly you mean when you say that Bellingham is going to be something we haven't quite seen in the England team before.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

3 minutes ago, eenie said:

I guess I'm just curious as to what exactly you mean when you say that Bellingham is going to be something we haven't quite seen in the England team before.

How many England players have genuinely been in the group of *the* best in the world, or close to that level? I think Bellingham is possibly already at that level and he could be at that level for years. Proper superstar.

Edited July 16 by Coulthard's Jaw

[VP.]

40 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

Bellingham is going to something we haven't quite seen in the England team before, better get used to it.

Paul Gascoigne.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

Just now, VP. said:

Paul Gascoigne.

Yes Gazza would have been that as well if he hadn't imploded on the pitch and off it. Where as Bellingham just has that mentality to succeed. You don't see it very often.

[eenie]

9 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

How many England players have genuinely been in the group of *the* best in the world, or close to that level? I think Bellingham is possibly already at that level and he could be at that level for years. Proper superstar.

Ah, ok.

Yeah, he's a phenomenal talent, playing a starring role at one of the biggest and most successful clubs in the world. But I'm not sure that makes him unique in the way you're suggesting, at least as far as playing for England is concerned.

Edited July 16 by eenie

[VP.]

2 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

Yes Gazza would have been that as well if he hadn't imploded on the pitch and off it. Where as Bellingham just has that mentality to succeed. You don't see it very often.

It was the fame that ended up being Gazza's downfall sadly as he was the first footballer who became rockstar famous after Italia 90. Nowadays things are different for players and there's far far more help (well there was nothing in Gazza's day) away from the game to hopefully keep their feet on the ground and out of trouble.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

1 minute ago, VP. said:

It was the fame that ended up being Gazza's downfall sadly as he was the first footballer who became rockstar famous after Italia 90. Nowadays things are different for players and there's far far more help (well there was nothing in Gazza's day) away from the game to hopefully keep their feet on the ground and out of trouble.

Yeah the support footballers get now is just night and day compared to back then. Even Beckham's era it's insane what he had to go through.

Edited July 16 by Coulthard's Jaw

[titchuk]

12 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

How many England players have genuinely been in the group of *the* best in the world, or close to that level? I think Bellingham is possibly already at that level and he could be at that level for years. Proper superstar.

Kane's probably been one of the best strikers in the world over the past 5ish years but yeah don't think he has the 'superstar' appeal that Bellingham does.