Southgate: Episode IV - A New Hope

[Gary_Parker]

The fact that everyone is talking about TAA as a potential midfielder for his national side highlights one of the biggest issues England have. No depth in a key position. 

Rice, Mainoo, Gallagher, Trent, Wharton is not a top class midfield*. Mainoo has less than 50 senior appearances and he's being chucked in at the biggest stage as a last hope of sorts given how much the midfield pairing was tinkered with. Gallagher is the epitome of the word 'meh' and Wharton is untested and only has 6 months of top flight experience behind him. Who else is there?

Similarly at fullback, there is a lack of decent depth. Especially on the left. Shaw and Trippier isn't a top quality selection. One is just back from a long injury and playing in a really poor side, the other is a right back who has struggled for form in the latter part of the season. Problem again is, who else is there? Chilwell? He's dropped into the Reece James category, good when fit, but cannot ever be relied upon. Joe Gomez? 

 

* at this time. Mainoo and Wharton still have a lot of time to grow and develop.

[eenie]

England definitely seem to have a lot of 10s and not as much depth at 6 or 8. Crying out for a Michael Carrick.

[Vynal Seven]

We had a Michael Carrick and we were s***e then as well. The problem isn’t and hasn’t ever really been the quality of the players we have available. 

[Coulthard's Jaw]

49 minutes ago, Bigwig said:

If he’s earning the rumoured £5m per year that’s a lot to walk away from.  Don’t see him getting that anywhere else. 

He'll be coining it in, whatever he does next.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

2 minutes ago, Vynal Seven said:

We had a Michael Carrick and we were s***e then as well.

We never played him  

[eenie]

Just now, Coulthard's Jaw said:

He'll be coining it in, whatever he does next.

Aye, his stock is high even though he's come in for a lot of criticism, he'll get a very good wage whatever he does next.

[eenie]

4 minutes ago, Vynal Seven said:

We had a Michael Carrick and we were s***e then as well. The problem isn’t and hasn’t ever really been the quality of the players we have available. 

34 caps over about 15 years. Not sure England used him well tbh. Mainly because they were busy trying to fit Lampard & Gerrard & A.N.Other into a 2 man midfield...

Edited July 15 by eenie

[Vynal Seven]

Just now, Coulthard's Jaw said:

We never played him  

Exactly. 

[Wiggins Top Boys]

5 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

He'll be coining it in, whatever he does next.

Pizza hut have a big advertising budget this year

[Vynal Seven]

1 minute ago, eenie said:

34 caps over about 15 years. Not sure England used him well tbh. Mainly because they were busy trying to fit Lampard & Gerrard & A.N.Other into a 2 man midfield...

Exactly, and now we’re ‘crying out for an 8’ even though we have Jude Bellingham, we’re ’crying out for a striker’ even though we have Harry Kane. A reincarnated Michael Carrick isn’t going to suddenly make us realise how to utilise our players properly. As I said, the problem isn’t the quality of players we have available. 

[eenie]

2 minutes ago, Wiggins Top Boys said:

Pizza hut have a big advertising budget this year

An advert where Gareth has to decide what to have for dinner and leaves it so late that he has to order Pizza Hut?

[Wiggins Top Boys]

1 minute ago, eenie said:

An advert where Gareth has to decide what to have for dinner and leaves it so late that he has to order Pizza Hut?

delivered by trent alexander arnold leaving everyone fuming as he clearly should be in the kitchen delicately placing the pepperoni

[silentwars]

9 minutes ago, eenie said:

34 caps over about 15 years. Not sure England used him well tbh. Mainly because they were busy trying to fit Lampard & Gerrard & A.N.Other into a 2 man midfield...

Had that period where Gareth Barry was playing regularly 

Edited July 15 by silentwars

[Coulthard's Jaw]

10 minutes ago, eenie said:

England definitely seem to have a lot of 10s and not as much depth at 6 or 8. Crying out for a Michael Carrick.

I think we were saying pre tournament that there is so much quality in the team that OK for some positions you might not have the perfect player but you just need someone to do a job so the really good players can do their thing. Gareth decided not to take that approach and we ended up looking very bad.

[eenie]

Just now, Wiggins Top Boys said:

delivered by trent alexander arnold leaving everyone fuming as he clearly should be in the kitchen delicately placing the pepperoni

Maybe Trent boots the pizza box 70 yards over Gareth's garden fence and through his door so that it lands right in the middle of his dinner table?

But of course the pizza is ruined in the attempt.

[TalkSport]

35 minutes ago, adhikapp said:

Trent's midfield performance in the first 2 games was unfair scapegoating. Thought he did well, but Mainoo was better. Foden was far worse and he's basically playing the position he played in the FA Cup Final, yet he kept his place until the final. Southgate had no balls to drop Foden.

Not quite. First few games he was playing LW, but told to come inside to 10. Then he was played central, but with no runners in final third. 

When you don’t have a striker who runs beyond to stretch the space, or someone on LW, to stretch the play, there’s only so much someone in the centre can do. 

No surprise his best game was SF, when he operated closer to right side and linked up with Mainoo / Saka, because it was players moving off the ball and creating options.

[silentwars]

I think Southgate should of rotated a lot more, certainly in the earlier stages. Our depth of squad should of been a strength and would of given us more freshness in the later stages, which could of given us an advantage. 

[Vynal Seven]

1 minute ago, eenie said:

Maybe Trent boots the pizza box 70 yards over Gareth's garden fence and through his door so that it lands right in the middle of his dinner table?

But of course the pizza is ruined in the attempt.

But Gareth’s so impressed with the delivery he starts calling Trent a Chef. 

[eenie]

2 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

I think we were saying pre tournament that there is so much quality in the team that OK for some positions you might not have the perfect player but you just need someone to do a job so the really good players can do their thing. Gareth decided not to take that approach and we ended up looking very bad.

Yeah, definitely. Spain showed that you don't need eleven world-beaters on the pitch at once, you need a good system with good players who are well-coached, and if you have a couple of worldies in there then so much the better.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

This is pretty bad isn't it  

[silentwars]

Just now, Coulthard's Jaw said:

This is pretty bad isn't it  

It's kind of what I'd expect if Gary Megson was the manager 

[Gary_Parker]

3 minutes ago, eenie said:

Yeah, definitely. Spain showed that you don't need eleven world-beaters on the pitch at once, you need a good system with good players who are well-coached, and if you have a couple of worldies in there then so much the better.

And not be afraid to drop players who play in the same position as others, regardless of who they are. Pedri/Olmo being the example. Most of the time when Pedri played, Olmo didn't until injury took Pedri out. 

[eenie]

Just now, Coulthard's Jaw said:

This is pretty bad isn't it  

I think the statto nerds need to come up with some sort of ratio of xG to xTalent or some similar baws, because England will definitely be bottom of the list for that particular metric.

The fact that they're 8th for goals per 90 mins seems bonkers though. Highlights that it's not been a goalfest of a tournament by any means. But I guess that stat will always be skewed for teams that progress further in the competition as you don't typically do that without scoring. So maybe finishing 8th when you got further than 22 other teams isn't that impressive?

Stats don't always tell the full story, and stats nerds (and football stats nerds in particular) are the worst people on Earth, but yeah, I think here they show that England were not a free-flowing attacking side  

[GunmaN1905]

32 minutes ago, Gary_Parker said:

The fact that everyone is talking about TAA as a potential midfielder for his national side highlights one of the biggest issues England have. No depth in a key position. 

Rice, Mainoo, Gallagher, Trent, Wharton is not a top class midfield*. Mainoo has less than 50 senior appearances and he's being chucked in at the biggest stage as a last hope of sorts given how much the midfield pairing was tinkered with. Gallagher is the epitome of the word 'meh' and Wharton is untested and only has 6 months of top flight experience behind him. Who else is there?

Similarly at fullback, there is a lack of decent depth. Especially on the left. Shaw and Trippier isn't a top quality selection. One is just back from a long injury and playing in a really poor side, the other is a right back who has struggled for form in the latter part of the season. Problem again is, who else is there? Chilwell? He's dropped into the Reece James category, good when fit, but cannot ever be relied upon. Joe Gomez? 

 

* at this time. Mainoo and Wharton still have a lot of time to grow and develop.

Southgate was kind of on the right track thinking 3421 would be the solution, but then instead of picking the players that fit the system, he moved Saka to wingback.

Playing with 3 at the back means you can do without a traditional #6 if all CBs are good on the ball.

It also helps with the lack of proper left side options. Just get your most physical winger who's willing to contribute defensively to buy into the role.
Trent on the right as a playmaking wingback and Gordon on the left as someone who's willing to go up and down a 100 times without the ball if needed.

Bellingham-Saka-Foden can all play only if Bellingham plays like an actual #8 with defensive duties. Just chucking them all together up front does nothing.

Pickford also needs to go. Last night were his first decent saves of the tournament, but nothing more. Save expected to be made by every EPL goalkeeper.
His rushing out and play with the ball is so erratic and makes the entire defense insecure. Someone else has to get a chance.

Reece James getting over his injures would be the best thing for the right side, but won't happen.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

1 minute ago, GunmaN1905 said:

Playing with 3 at the back means you can do without a traditional #6 if all CBs are good on the ball.

Yes, I think we have three centre backs who can do this as well.

[TalkSport]

I’ll just never get over Southgate deciding and persisting with, no LW option.  Just makes the pitch smaller, and regardless who plays the most advanced centrally out of Bellingham or Foden, they would struggle unless the game was stretched. 

Hopefully Carlo slaps Bellingham back into the CM role now Mbappe is there, and plays a more disciplined game. Game allowed to evolve for the worse last 12 months, despite the output, because it’s a role that’s not available at international level. 

Whoever is manager come next games, has some average ‘competitive’ games to try many different things, to gauge what should be the approach for WC campaign. Early on though the main below needs deciding for me:

If Foden is playing CM or RW and battling with whoever/Saka

If Rice will be deep man, or someone else permanently played there and he’s pushed on to an 8. 

Long term LB option, Shaw is great, but can’t be relying on him or nothing

Long term LW. There’s many different players, experienced, breakout and yet to fully emerge who can take that.

Rest should take care of itself regardless of formation (ST, CB pairing, RB). The above for me shapes how we play and control games moving to the WC cycle. 

If Lee Carsley got the job, could be some wild teams picked based on how he got the u21s playing. Lot more system rather than personnel. 

[TalkSport]

21 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

Pickford also needs to go. Last night were his first decent saves of the tournament, but nothing more. Save expected to be made by every EPL goalkeeper.
His rushing out and play with the ball is so erratic and makes the entire defense insecure. Someone else has to get a chance.

He’ll be under more scrutiny next cycle, but I like to think with an actual coach that insists on build up play through the lines, he’s capable of it. When he’s told, go long if you feel it’s a risk to go short, he will because that’s his mindset at club level. Slight risk, go long.

Options outside him really depends on goalkeeper movement over next season. Ramsdale currently not a regular, best in age group below, is back in the Championship and still raw, then it’s like Johnston/Henderson, who are both at same club so it’s one or the other. Basically, he’s not got a direct competition, Ramsdale was closest in recent times, but last 12 months has pushed him back.

[Rob1981]

42 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

we were saying pre tournament that there is so much quality in the team that OK for some positions you might not have the perfect player but you just need someone to do a job so the really good players can do their thing. Gareth decided not to take that approach and we ended up looking very bad.

Who knew.

[TalkSport]

Just looked, Pope has same amount of caps as Ramsdale / Johnstone / Henderson / Trafford combined  Pickford can relax easily. 

[Bigwig]

56 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

He'll be coining it in, whatever he does next.

He’ll have plenty of offers but not sure of they’ll be as financially lucrative or come with all the additional perks of being England manager (free entry to games and all the additional hospitality).

I always figured the FA would move him into some role behind the scenes as an ambassador or technical director, something similar to what Trevor Brooking does (did?). 

[Coulthard's Jaw]

14 minutes ago, TalkSport said:

I’ll just never get over Southgate deciding and persisting with, no LW option.  Just makes the pitch smaller, and regardless who plays the most advanced centrally out of Bellingham or Foden, they would struggle unless the game was stretched.  

It looked worse because of what Kane was in this tournament. We only really had Saka with some pace up front and even he isn't really that sort of player. Out of the players in the squad Gordon was a slam dunk selection for me, unbelievable Gareth didn't use him at all. Or just don't play Kane and have Watkins up there.

Edited July 15 by Coulthard's Jaw

[Coulthard's Jaw]

2 minutes ago, TalkSport said:

Just looked, Pope has same amount of caps as Ramsdale / Johnstone / Henderson / Trafford combined  Pickford can relax easily. 

Pickford does the saving and claiming crosses bit of the job very well, so well I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt and blame the management for the long kick tactics.

[eenie]

Kane being unfit really, really handicapped England, didn't it? Played with 10 men for most of the tournament, had no dynamism across two-thirds of the attack. If Saka wasn't so bloody good then England would have offered zero in terms of pace or attacking threat.

[themadsheep2001]

2 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

It looked worse because of what Kane was in this tournament. We only really had Saka with some pace up front and even he isn't really that sort of player. Out of the players in the squad Gordon was a slam dunk selection for me, unbelievable Gareth didn't use him at all. Or just don't play Kane and have Watkins up there.

Still baffled by TAA in midfield when we had Wharton, Mainoo and Bellingham as CM options

[themadsheep2001]

1 minute ago, eenie said:

Kane being unfit really, really handicapped England, didn't it? Played with 10 men for most of the tournament, had no dynamism across two-thirds of the attack. If Saka wasn't so bloody good then England would have offered zero in terms of pace or attacking threat.

Yep, massively. Was so frustrating to watch. 

[arenaross]

I’m concerned that our up period has coincided with down or downish periods for major rivals like Germany, Italy, Brazil and we haven’t got over the line.

When they get their **** together it’s going to be much harder.

Edited July 15 by arenaross

[themadsheep2001]

Just now, arenaross said:

I’m concerned that our up period has coincided with down or downish periods for major rivals like Germany, Italy, Brazil and we haven’t got over the line.

When they get their **** together it’s going to be much harder.

I think weve still got a lot of up. Left back is the concern for me. No one can stay fit FFS

[Bigwig]

Which manager are we blaming for the long kicks?  Southgate or Dyche?

The players were repeatedly asking Pickford to play it out and he kept going long, so if that’s under the managers instructions then it needs to be communicated throughout the team as it’s no good having your players trying to contradict team instructions. 

[VP.]

9 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

Pickford does the saving and claiming crosses bit of the job very well, so well I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt and blame the management for the long kick tactics.

Pickford is awful at crosses, just decides to do a usually pathetic punch rather than actually catch the ball.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

5 minutes ago, arenaross said:

I’m concerned that our up period has coincided with down or downish periods for major rivals like Germany, Italy, Brazil and we haven’t got over the line.

When they get their **** together it’s going to be much harder.

Us and France are the major talent producers at the moment, and thats not just down to luck so I'm confident that we will be up there for a while yet. Need to identify some passers though.

[Gary_Parker]

3 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

I think weve still got a lot of up. Left back is the concern for me. No one can stay fit FFS

Aside from Shaw and Chilwell, who is there at left back either pushing them or coming through? 

Chilwell and Reece James should be put on the 'nah, maybe just don't bother' pile given they're more brittle than RAAC built houses.

[TalkSport]

8 minutes ago, arenaross said:

I’m concerned in that our up period has coincided with down or downish periods for major rivals like Germany, Italy, Brazil and we haven’t got over the line.

When they get their **** together it’s going to be much harder.

We’re still fine for that IMO. Germany had a chance with home Euros, but their squad isn’t looking the greatest for an upward trend going to 2028. Same for Italy.

We’ll be strong favourites for next two tournaments and the side teams will not want to face till at least the final.

Spain may be the tricky one if Yamal really breaks out as superstar and Williams takes next step. Having a philosophy that controls games, but then with superstars in final third is a dangerous combination. France replacing Deschamps with a better coach will be same, because alongside Mbappe, they’ve got some serious talent in the wide areas to get their chance in this next cycle.

Edited July 15 by TalkSport

[metal_guitarist]

1 minute ago, Gary_Parker said:

Aside from Shaw and Chilwell, who is there at left back either pushing them or coming through? 

Chilwell and Reece James should be put on the 'nah, maybe just don't bother' pile given they're more brittle than RAAC built houses.

Very few options until you get all the way down to U18/U17 level where you have Harry Amass who style-wise is a Luke Shaw clone and Bendito Mantato who is closer to Saka and will probably end up playing on the wing rather than full-back.

[TalkSport]

Probably can say, only facing France one of the three recent tournaments has helped. Because they will still be the side, to win a tournament, you will need to knock them out. We got to two finals by not needing to face them.

[arenaross]

5 minutes ago, Bigwig said:

Which manager are we blaming for the long kicks?  Southgate or Dyche?

The players were repeatedly asking Pickford to play it out and he kept going long, so if that’s under the managers instructions then it needs to be communicated throughout the team as it’s no good having your players trying to contradict team instructions. 

But assuming that's from the management team, why on earth are you asking a team full of capable players who play out from the back each week to watch as Pickford launches another ball forward into the space where Harry Kane should have been, were he not milling around at right back.

To me, an idiot, it seems that if you don't have the time to impose or train a squad into a cohesive system - which I accept can be tough to do at intl level - then the next best thing be would to use a system that the majority of the players are comfortable with. Try to replicate the way they play at domestic level, which appears to work for them. But instead, we've never really had any cohesive system or approach other than let's be very, very safe.

 

[titchuk]

12 minutes ago, Bigwig said:

He’ll have plenty of offers but not sure of they’ll be as financially lucrative or come with all the additional perks of being England manager (free entry to games and all the additional hospitality).

I always figured the FA would move him into some role behind the scenes as an ambassador or technical director, something similar to what Trevor Brooking does (did?). 

I said half-jokingly in the thread earlier about him ending up in the House of Lords and, bizarrely, I've just seen - even more bizarrely - an American presidential adviser suggesting Starmer should do that and make him a minister in the sports department.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

4 minutes ago, TalkSport said:

Probably can say, only facing France one of the three recent tournaments has helped. Because they will still be the side, to win a tournament, you will need to knock them out. We got to two finals by not needing to face them.

France are scary but I think we can go toe to toe with them, and we did do at the World Cup. Spain are probably the worst match up for us in world football.

[Bigwig]

Being a public servant is going to be a pittance compared to what he can get elsewhere.

Is it too late for the Man Utd gig?

[ajw10]

Spain have just won the Euro's with a functional left back. Why can't England do the same with someone like Mitchell?

[m_fenton]

2 minutes ago, ajw10 said:

Spain have just won the Euro's with a functional left back. Why can't England do the same with someone like Mitchell?

The functional £62m left back? I'd rather we'd had a fit left footer as an option at least in the squad, but I'm not pinning us losing the final (when we had a left footer playing there) on the absence of Mitchell.