Southgate: Episode IV - A New Hope

[enigmatic]

19 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

The England split stuff is from the 2000s, the Venables/Hoddle tournaments had a really good team spirit by all accounts.

and I think half the split stuff in the 2000s was exaggerated as a reason for our underperformance in games (with a couple of obvious exceptions like people having very good reasons to fall out with John Terry)

look at the most ridiculous club man partisans being best buddy pundits now they could quite happily choose to not be in the same stadium ever again

 

2 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

Yeah the support footballers get now is just night and day compared to back then.

Also just the stuff that isn't normalised now. I mean, Gazza was a raging alcoholic at a time when normal international players had "drinking clubs". There's a chance he might not have been (during his playing years at least) if drinking was something you were just really, really discouraged from doing at all.

 

5 minutes ago, titchuk said:

Kane's probably been one of the best strikers in the world over the past 5ish years but yeah don't think he has the 'superstar' appeal that Bellingham does.

yeah, if you're talking about top players in their position I think there are a quite a few candidates over the years, including in less glamorous defensive roles, but if you're talking Galactico then Bellingham is in a class with only Beckham. Don't think being a Galactico is the most useful trait for a member of a national team with several good players and higher than usual expectations though, even if Bellingham does seem to have his head firmly screwed on...

[TM]

57 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

How many England players have genuinely been in the group of *the* best in the world, or close to that level? I think Bellingham is possibly already at that level and he could be at that level for years. Proper superstar.

at one point, Rooney was in that category

[The_jagster]

Although I think a lot of the reporting of it is a bit stupid, there are aspects of Bellingham I don't like, such as the 'who else?' thing when he scored and the very frequent diving.

Now maybe there is some inside joke about 'who else' but it seems too individualistic to me.

[Bootador]

I think it was brought up in the Atheltic that Bellingham was a bit of a loner in the group, and the group didn't really appreciate the ads focused on him as an individual pre-tournament. I've already judged him as a massive whopper, there's no going back now 

 

[TM]

anytime I've seen an interview with Jude, he seems to be a guy who is confident in his own ability but mostly grounded and has his head screwed on properly, knows what he wants from his career

he's more likely going to have more success with Real down the line which could lead to two scenarios when he joins up with England:

one - his success with Real rubs off on the squad and he's able to push them on to national success

two - he starts getting annoyed that people aren't at his level (or his club) and team-mates potentially start to resent him.  Jude's a bit of special case in the idea of not having played in the Premier League yet and decided to play most of his career in Europe, first at Dortmund and then at Real Madrid.  There's been England players who have gone to European clubs but normally they'd have at least one club in the top English division before that happens, unless I've missed somebody.

[eenie]

30 minutes ago, TM said:

There's been England players who have gone to European clubs but normally they'd have at least one club in the top English division before that happens, unless I've missed somebody.

Owen Hargreaves (yeah I know, he doesn't really count does he?)

[Divinity]

Still think Hargreaves was one of the most criminally underrated players of his generation, especially when in Germany. I know injuries played a part but he should have been anchoring that midfield and in place of Lampard far more often.

[adhikapp]

9 hours ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

How many England players have genuinely been in the group of *the* best in the world, or close to that level? I think Bellingham is possibly already at that level and he could be at that level for years. Proper superstar.

For the current crop: Kane despite his performances in Euro 2024, is the most prolific striker in Bundesliga and was scoring tons in the Premier League. Foden despite his performances in Euro 2024 too, was PotY last season for the best team in England. Name me a better RB than both Walker & Trent, and I can debate that they're better. I'd even have Saka as one of the currents best RW in the world atm. Other than Bellingham, these are the 'best' in the world.

What does Southgate do? Plays Saka as a RWB, Walker as a RCB, shoving Trent into midfield for 2 matches, then not create a formation that supplies the most prolific striker England has had in years. Not to mention how Foden and Bellingham keep getting into each others spaces. There are any good things Southgate has done, tactics wasn't really one of them.

[TalkSport]

11 hours ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

I think so yeah, he's going to be a star player at Real for as many years as he wants.

I'm actually not sure about saying more so because I don't know if that's going to be better than what Rooney was, but it's definitely different in a way we haven't seen.

Think it depends on the role he has with Real Madrid moving forward. Still be a key player, but playing a more disciplined CM role would change the perception around him. Would still be a top class CM, but then that’s in the same category as Declan Rice? 

He can’t and won’t be playing same role for Real Madrid this coming season, with Vini Jr and Mbappe in attack.

[skybluedave]

Think with someone like Kane, yes he is one of the best and most prolific striker in world but just by nature of his position he can't carry teams. Bit like Lewandowski and Poland. Whereas, in theory, Bellingham could be one of the top 3 players in the world AND by nature of his role carry a team and lift a team up to higher heights. 

[TalkSport]

12 hours ago, titchuk said:

I'm slightly concerned about who is coming through in other positions, particularly centre forward. 

Probably not going to have someone like Kane again straight, because it feels football in a way over last 5 years has edged the striker out of the game unless they’re an early physical phenomenon. So Shearer to Owen to Rooney to Kane is a golden stretch in fairness, which will probably distort how we view our strikers.

But this season we had an abundance of English strikers that were doing well. Solanke couldn’t make squad despite a strong scoring season, and sort of output other top nations would scream for. As long as can keep a couple of those present in the Prem and in form, it’s fine, even if they’re not at the top end level because the talent will be elsewhere (wide areas/CM).

[Bootador]

Even players like Rice who, for all I've criticised him for, Arsenal fans love as a £120m purchase. And I think club fans' opinions on players, despite natural bias, are worth more than anyone else's because they see them week in week out.

These are top players, used poorly.

[The_jagster]

Don't want to bang on about Rice but he makes up for passing deficiencies by carrying the ball past players and getting up the pitch that way (like Stones in the final) and the only time I can recall that this tournament was in stoppage time against Holland.

I think it is because Southgate prioritised "control" which is really caution against giving the ball away in dangerous positions which is not the same thing.

[Bigwig]

I’d agree it’s going to be interest to see where Bellingham plays for Real next season (I’m not entirely sure how they fit Mbappe either)  

Plenty of people were advocating dropping him back alongside Rice and using Foden as a 10, but it wasn’t considered because he’d had such a great season in an advanced role (even if it was still different). If he ends up dropping deeper for Real and then  the new manager follows suit, people will be asking why we didn’t try this sooner.  

[mrw072]

40 minutes ago, Bigwig said:

I’d agree it’s going to be interest to see where Bellingham plays for Real next season (I’m not entirely sure how they fit Mbappe either)  

Plenty of people were advocating dropping him back alongside Rice and using Foden as a 10, but it wasn’t considered because he’d had such a great season in an advanced role (even if it was still different). If he ends up dropping deeper for Real and then  the new manager follows suit, people will be asking why we didn’t try this sooner.  

Very much so.  It ties in with Gareth Southgate appearing to be very risk averse too.  Largely proves that point I guess, or certainly helps to.

[arenaross]

Most accurate long passes, you'll never sing that. 

 

[TM]

just a suggestion but could Stones play the No6 that people always go on about for England?

he can pass out of defence, he can defend, he's able to hold on to the ball.  England could quite easily use Guehi and another for CB pairing.  Although I expect Man City fans would have more experience in knowing his strengths/weaknesses with them watching him week in, week out.  Maybe getting a bit older and injuries might flare up a bit more