Game 17: Denmark vs England live from the Frankfurt Arena. BBC1 5pm

[craigcwwe]

That was another awful performance. 2/2 now. 
 

Set up is all wrong. Trippier doesn’t help us at LB, he can’t get past the halfway line and on his wrong foot too. Affects Foden or whoever is at LW too. 
 

Off the ball is really bad. Can’t seem to get any pressure against opponents. 
 

Trent shouldn’t be playing CM. Most of us knew it wouldn’t work pre tournament hopefully with Southgate subbing him off early in the second half that’s him admitting to himself he has got that one wrong. Get Mainoo in there from the next game. 
 

Team has looked knackered in both matches. 

[Smallen]

3 minutes ago, Astafjevs said:

The team that did so well against France and in the World Cup in general was very similar to this one. Maguire, Shaw, Henderson out; Guéhi, Trippier, Alexander-Arnold in.

There was no Sterling, Rashford et al. 

I do think Bellingham's role is a bit different though. Feel like he's playing closer to Kane and less like a midfielder. But otherwise it's three players. Shaw is obviously a big loss when the alternative is a rightback.

So I find it confusing that all of a sudden the players apparently don't know what to do when pressing or progressing the ball.

Declan Rice played really well in that game and just awful individually today with really ultra basic stuff. Tbh so did Harry Maguire in terms of distribution.

Having an actual attacking outlet on the left does make a huge structural difference though. Teams know at the moment that they can pull an extra man over into midfield or to double up on our right flank because they don’t have to worry about our left hand side at all. I don’t think you can understate Shaw’s absence.

Edited June 20 by Smallen

[Rebs]

Can't believe some saying Rashford should have gone.  Grealish I get, although even he was pony this season.  Rashford has been woeful all season.  As I posted further above, this squad is much better than the performances are showing, the players aren't the problem or the balance in the team, there's enough in there to be able to put at least a couple of sides together who would trouble most teams.  But something definitely doesn't feel right.  I think it needs changes for the 3rd match, just to try out something different at least, as the same team after an average performance has now played worse.  3 changes needed I think.  Rice and Bellingham in the middle (and Bellingham wasn't good tonight...he needs to be told he's there to control the match in the middle in this role).  Gordon, Foden, Saka behind Kane.  Trippier is probs best until Shaw can come in, with Gordon it hopefully helps him on the left.

[Sned]

Just now, themadsheep2001 said:

Stand by saying we should have taken Rashford. Not seeing anything that makes me feel otherwise 

I've seen Southgate take some praise (not necessarily here) for making 'strong' decisions and leaving out some big names and established squad players, but I wonder if in hindsight it might turn out to be weak management.

Taking on-form players gets the fans off your back in the short-term, but I wonder if he succumbed to a bit of a pressure and dropped some players that he really didn't want to?

[Delicate Dave]

1 minute ago, aggressive minor said:

Left back is a huge issue as well

tbh 

I know the left back is ke shift and it seems everyone on BBC is on Kane's case but Bellingham, Rice, Walker, Trent & Stones were shocking. I give some credit to Fodan & Saka for trying to put some football together.

 

5 minutes ago, aiston said:

Trippier has been fine, considering it's just him on that wing as Foden goes elsewhere 90% of the time.

I don't think Tripper was the problem, make-shift and ask to do a job, I give Foden credit for taking it on himself to go into the centre to do the role Bellingham was supposed to be doing. Same with Stones really, he spent and his CN partner spent most of their time covering for Rice. Bellingham & Rice are great players but FFS they have earn the right to play before the decide to walking around the pitch.

[Vynal Seven]

Come on, let’s hear from the **** to tell us how pleased he is with the performance. 

[PaulHartman71]

He’s fuming Kalvin Phillips dropped off  

[JJ72]

10 minutes ago, Astafjevs said:

I don't think it's a great sign of harmony when one of your best players is coming out and almost pointing a finger at the coach.

Yes there's definitely something up behind the scenes

[aiston]

He misses Phillips

 

[themadsheep2001]

2 minutes ago, Sned said:

I've seen Southgate take some praise (not necessarily here) for making 'strong' decisions and leaving out some big names and established squad players, but I wonder if in hindsight it might turn out to be weak management.

Taking on-form players gets the fans off your back in the short-term, but I wonder if he succumbed to a bit of a pressure and dropped some players that he really didn't want to?

Its a lack of balance. The team looks unbalanced. Shaw is a big loss, so then go with a left winger, and allow Trippier to tuck invert and the midfield can push up.

[BigV]

Did gareth just say there's no like for like replacement for kalvin phillips? Wharton is right there... Drop jude into an 8... christ

[martynlcfc]

Not sure why Mainoo and Wharton are there then if "we don't have a natural replacement for Kalvin Phillips" as Gareth has just claimed.

[Smallen]

An in-form Phillips does transform our midfield tbh. I think recency bias is making people forget that the guy earned a big move to the best team in the world at the time.

[Astafjevs]

Phillips wasn't playing in the World Cup either, another event where England were very good. So just saying 'we need a Phillips' makes no sense either.

[Rebs]

Just now, themadsheep2001 said:

Its a lack of balance. The team looks unbalanced. Shaw is a big loss, so then go with a left winger, and allow Trippier to tuck invert and the midfield can push up.

I agree, although not necessarily that Shaw is a big loss, we just need a left sided player really.  I also think the side more benefits from 3 behind Kane or whatever striker is playing than this 433 we keep going with.  

[sc91]

2 minutes ago, Smallen said:

An in-form Phillips does transform our midfield tbh. I think recency bias is making people forget that the guy earned a big move to the best team in the world at the time.

If only there were two other young midfielders in the squad.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

1 minute ago, Smallen said:

An in-form Phillips does transform our midfield tbh. I think recency bias is making people forget that the guy earned a big move to the best team in the world at the time.

Phillips is sad because he literally just had to be good enough to still in the side, but I don't know what happened but he stopped looking like a top level footballer last season.

[GunmaN1905]

2 minutes ago, Smallen said:

An in-form Phillips does transform our midfield tbh. I think recency bias is making people forget that the guy earned a big move to the best team in the world at the time.

The entire problem is that every team has questionable players in certain positions, but good coaches make it work.

It's NT football, you're not going up against Real or City.

You can't tell me there's not a single decent #6 in strongest league in the universe who can protect the back line and make tidy passes. It's not like he'd need to do more with all the attacking talent.

[JJ72]

3 minutes ago, Smallen said:

An in-form Phillips does transform our midfield tbh. I think recency bias is making people forget that the guy earned a big move to the best team in the world at the time.

In form Phillips. How long ago was that? A good manager can adapt immediately, let alone after 2 years

[enigmatic]

15 minutes ago, Delicate Dave said:

I think it's very kind of Gareth Southgate to show today's England supporters what they missed under Graham Taylor.

On a scale of "They are growing into the tournament" England is at the "future dad's having his first pint while he waits for future mom to arrive" Stage.

Tbf, we've had the utterly **** game in basically every single tournament I remember, but for some reason we have rose tinted memories of the absolute gash we regularly turned up between Taylor and Southgate or have somehow managed to forget them

[Smallen]

Just now, sc91 said:

If only there were two other young midfielders in the squad.

neither of them anywhere near peak Phillips level yet imo. You watch Mainoo for England just a couple of times and realise that there’s probably quite a good reason Man U constantly leave a massive gap in front of their defence.

[The_jagster]

19 minutes ago, Haguey said:

Matuidi playing left midfield for France and Howedes at left back for Germany spring to mind  You need to pick the best team at the end of the day don't you even if you make some compromises

I think the problem is we don't have a functional engine type player to just put the effort in as a midfielder. Southgate just said directly we don't have a Phillips who was that player before.

 

It was interesting reading World Soccer's preview, both Bernardo Silva and Ruben Diaz had comments that were essentially "not the same player for the national team as at City" and I don't think it's easy to get players to do what they do for their clubs, Foden has never really looked it for England.

We made the changes and Watkins had his chance but even so the team still looked bad, there was something fundamentally wrong this evening.

[skybluedave]

1 minute ago, Astafjevs said:

Phillips wasn't playing in the World Cup either, another event where England were very good. So just saying 'we need a Phillips' makes no sense either.

Hendo though 

Performances were better when we had Phillips. Post WC our best games were the home & away wins against Italy and the Scotland game. All 3 had Rice & Phillips. But I refuse to believe we can't replace Phillips 

[Sned]

Two games into a European Championships and the manager comes out and says 'we are trying a few things'  

Really concerning stuff.

[Rob1981]

6 minutes ago, Sned said:

I wonder if he succumbed to a bit of a pressure and dropped some players that he really didn't want to

Going to be a sad epilogue to his England career if we don’t shake things up massively. Gave the people what they wanted; then they realised they didn’t want it but still blamed him. 

Imagine tonight’s side with Henderson instead of TAA and Rashford instead of Foden. Henderson knitting things together in there and Rashford running beyond Kane and not trying to cut inside and occupy the same part of the pitch as Bellingham. They’re not the most in-form players but they look like a team. At the risk of sounding like a stuck record, there’s no point naming all your 9/10 and 10/10 players if they don’t make a cohesive side when you put them all together. You are better off chucking a 7/10 in there if that means everyone else can go and smash it.

All feels a bit 2006 at the moment… people thought we had won it before we arrived, but we are just chucking players out there and hoping that something clicks once the games start.

 

[themadsheep2001]

2 minutes ago, Rebs said:

I agree, although not necessarily that Shaw is a big loss, we just need a left sided player really.  I also think the side more benefits from 3 behind Kane or whatever striker is playing than this 433 we keep going with.  

Shaw, Chilwell; pick your poison - if you're playing with Foden on the left then your full back has to get right up that pitch, so it needs to be a proper attacking left footed left back 

[Darren Moores Mum]

Everybody else's fault but Gareth's

[craigcwwe]

 

Every single time. 

[Smallen]

soon it will be time to let Lewis Hall off the leash

No but seriously Newcastle have 3 players in our squad who are better left backs than Trippier, let alone England  

Edited June 20 by Smallen

[GunmaN1905]

[aiston]

Just now, craigcwwe said:

 

Every single time. 

Now to be fair to Southgate, he did just say it wasn't his idea to drop back after scoring.

[Darren Moores Mum]

Imagine being such a one dimensional manager that you're a drop in form of Kalvin Phillips away from it all collapsing and not having a clue how to change things.

[Vynal Seven]

2 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

Going to be a sad epilogue to his England career if we don’t shake things up massively. Gave the people what they wanted; then they realised they didn’t want it but still blamed him. 

Oh so it’s our fault?  

P.S. (This isn’t what anyone wanted)

[Pedwar Pump]

Trent was pony but somehow Gallagher managed to be even worse when he came on.

[GunmaN1905]

1 minute ago, Vynal Seven said:

Oh so it’s our fault?  

P.S. (This isn’t what anyone wanted)

If only everyone could find a partner that loves them as much as Rob loves Gareth, the world would be a much better place.

[Haguey]

2 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

Going to be a sad epilogue to his England career if we don’t shake things up massively. Gave the people what they wanted; then they realised they didn’t want it but still blamed him. 

Imagine tonight’s side with Henderson instead of TAA and Rashford instead of Foden. Henderson knitting things together in there and Rashford running beyond Kane and not trying to cut inside and occupy the same part of the pitch as Bellingham. They’re not the most in-form players but they look like a team. At the risk of sounding like a stuck record, there’s no point naming all your 9/10 and 10/10 players if they don’t make a cohesive side when you put them all together. You are better off chucking a 7/10 in there if that means everyone else can go and smash it.

All feels a bit 2006 at the moment… people thought we had won it before we arrived, but we are just chucking players out there and hoping that something clicks once the games start.

 

Yeah, I can't think of a team that has won a tournament without at least a couple of functional players in there, 2014 Germany outside of Howedes also had Kramer who barely played afterwards, Argrentina and France had hard workers around Mbappe/Messi, Italy were a team full of players who worked very well as a team and held together by Bonucci and Chiellini. Chucking your best players out there rarely works, even Spain used Marcos Senna in 2008 and then Fabregas and others is less familiar roles in 2010/12.

[Haguey]

5 minutes ago, Smallen said:

soon it will be time to let Lewis Hall off the leash

No but seriously Newcastle have 3 players in our squad who are better left backs than Trippier, let alone England  

SmAllen Shearer here talking sense imo

[The_jagster]

4 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

Going to be a sad epilogue to his England career if we don’t shake things up massively. Gave the people what they wanted; then they realised they didn’t want it but still blamed him. 

Imagine tonight’s side with Henderson instead of TAA and Rashford instead of Foden. Henderson knitting things together in there and Rashford running beyond Kane and not trying to cut inside and occupy the same part of the pitch as Bellingham. They’re not the most in-form players but they look like a team. At the risk of sounding like a stuck record, there’s no point naming all your 9/10 and 10/10 players if they don’t make a cohesive side when you put them all together. You are better off chucking a 7/10 in there if that means everyone else can go and smash it.

All feels a bit 2006 at the moment… people thought we had won it before we arrived, but we are just chucking players out there and hoping that something clicks once the games start.

 

But Henderson today is worse than Henderson of previous tournaments. Rashford has been playing worse for a considerable period now. You also have to adapt for now and not what somebody could do 2 or 4 years ago

[Rob1981]

Just now, Vynal Seven said:

Oh so it’s our fault?  

P.S. (This isn’t what anyone wanted)

People wanted him to pick the form players. He’s picked the form players. But beyond that, you can’t expect him to work miracles. No international manager is going to get a new crop of players to click straightaway. We aren’t going to turn up and immediately start knocking it around like the Brazilians in the airport lounge. They get such limited time on the training ground and you’ve now got combinations of players all over the pitch that have literally never played together before.

It’s obviously Southgate’s fault, but he’s at fault for not sticking to his guns in terms of team selection. You can’t blame him for not instantly finding a magic formula on the pitch if he has bowed to pressure and shoehorned in different players.

[Tikka Mezzala]

England should just chuck a lower league jobber into the midfield to kick **** out of people. A Mark Kerr type player from the old CMs/FMs. Surely someone like that can be found throughout the EFL? 

[Coulthard's Jaw]

Just now, Rob1981 said:

It’s obviously Southgate’s fault, but he’s at fault for not sticking to his guns in terms of team selection. You can’t blame him for not instantly finding a magic formula on the pitch if he has bowed to pressure and shoehorned in different players.

Why do we think Southgate has bowed to pressure  he's a grown man!

[Haguey]

Just now, Tikka Mezzala said:

England should just chuck a lower league jobber into the midfield to kick **** out of people. A Mark Kerr type player from the old CMs/FMs. Surely someone like that can be found throughout the EFL? 

Lee Cattermole retired

[Tikka Mezzala]

Just now, Haguey said:

Lee Cattermole retired

Surely Millwall have someone?  

[Haguey]

Yeah if Southgate has gone against his principles to pacify some fans then he should leave immediately

[Vynal Seven]

2 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

People wanted him to pick the form players. He’s picked the form players. But beyond that, you can’t expect him to work miracles. No international manager is going to get a new crop of players to click straightaway. We aren’t going to turn up and immediately start knocking it around like the Brazilians in the airport lounge. They get such limited time on the training ground and you’ve now got combinations of players all over the pitch that have literally never played together before.

It’s obviously Southgate’s fault, but he’s at fault for not sticking to his guns in terms of team selection. You can’t blame him for not instantly finding a magic formula on the pitch if he has bowed to pressure and shoehorned in different players.

Then it begs the question of why our form players haven’t played together before then really doesn’t it?

Edited June 20 by Vynal Seven

[skybluedave]

Trent's performance was so weird. Was like all he could do was long passes. Like he was playing PES without a working X button. 

Feels like he thinks he has to justify his selection by pinging a bunch of successful Hollywood passes

[Rob1981]

2 minutes ago, The_jagster said:

But Henderson today is worse than Henderson of previous tournaments.

Right. But you shouldn’t be comparing him to the Henderson of previous tournaments, you should be comparing him to the TAA of this afternoon. Because that’s the only choice you can make at this point. And TAA at the moment isn’t just underperforming as an individual, he is also dragging everyone else’s performance levels down because the team isn’t purring as a group.

It says something when I was sitting there hoping for a Kyle Walker injury when he went down and changed his boots. Actually hoping that he would have to come off so that TAA could be pushed to RB and we could then bring on a midfielder who could bring some balance and hold on to the bloody football.

[sc91]

3 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

People wanted him to pick the form players. He’s picked the form players. But beyond that, you can’t expect him to work miracles. No international manager is going to get a new crop of players to click straightaway. We aren’t going to turn up and immediately start knocking it around like the Brazilians in the airport lounge. They get such limited time on the training ground and you’ve now got combinations of players all over the pitch that have literally never played together before.

It’s obviously Southgate’s fault, but he’s at fault for not sticking to his guns in terms of team selection. You can’t blame him for not instantly finding a magic formula on the pitch if he has bowed to pressure and shoehorned in different players.

All that shows is Gareth can't handle pressure?

[Ackter]

Southgate would do better at DC now than he does as a manager.

[Vynal Seven]

Just now, skybluedave said:

Trent's performance was so weird. Was like all he could do was long passes. Like he was playing PES without a working X button. 

Feels like he thinks he has to justify his selection by pinging a bunch of successful Hollywood passes

That is literally why Southgate’s put him in midfield though because he has next to no other use in midfield. Turns out, getting him the ball with 10 yards of space all around him isn’t that easy.