Game 17: Denmark vs England live from the Frankfurt Arena. BBC1 5pm

[Baptista_8]

10 minutes ago, titchuk said:

There's a lot of overreacting going on. Feels like the bad old days where the players are going to hate playing for England.

I think the players will just be unbelievably relieved when Southgate goes. They'll know how much he's holding them back.

[Vynal Seven]

29 minutes ago, Lucas said:

As I asked earlier, I don't really know or understand where this 'Trent in midfield' idea materialised from, whose brainchild it is. 

It’s what Gareth heard Klopp was doing at Liverpool. 

[kopsy101]

55 minutes ago, WillHoward42 said:

Trippier hasn’t done anything wrong, but not really done anything good either?

Rice had an absolute stinker. But because of the way Southgate has set us up to play, to accommodate the Trent experiment, which is absolutely baffling.

Trent might work if we have wingers hugging the line for him to ping balls to, or a striker sitting on the mast defender. But we have neither of those things, so what exactly is Southgate trying to accomplish here?

Trent hasn’t exactly been ‘bad’ but him trying to play midfield is not the answer and is hampering the team.

Sorry, but that last half hour was as bad as I've seen England play and he wasn't a part of it. Him playing in midfield is not the big problem. Nor is Foden playing where he is, Bellingham trying to dribble everybody etc

I agree though, if you're gonna play Trent in midfield, give him runners to pick out. Not just him though, give Rice a reason to progress with the ball, give Bellingham somebody to play to  after he's broken into space. Trippier had 10 assists this season, he's not even been close to picking an important pass, who is there to pass to?

Regarding Trips, it's difficult because when you have a player who can't progress on their left, it kinda narrows the field of play in an attacking sense. He has been solid though, but having somebody comfortable running up and down might be a game changer. We had this issue with Gomez this season, it became very stale, and Robertson was a breath of fresh air. Meant we could expand our play. 

Perhaps the players, Bellingham aside, are feeling the weight of expectation a bit. 

[craigcwwe]

4 hours ago, Rebs said:

Can't believe some saying Rashford should have gone.  Grealish I get, although even he was pony this season.  Rashford has been woeful all season.  As I posted further above, this squad is much better than the performances are showing, the players aren't the problem or the balance in the team, there's enough in there to be able to put at least a couple of sides together who would trouble most teams.  But something definitely doesn't feel right.  I think it needs changes for the 3rd match, just to try out something different at least, as the same team after an average performance has now played worse.  3 changes needed I think.  Rice and Bellingham in the middle (and Bellingham wasn't good tonight...he needs to be told he's there to control the match in the middle in this role).  Gordon, Foden, Saka behind Kane.  Trippier is probs best until Shaw can come in, with Gordon it hopefully helps him on the left.

Rashford had a better season than Grealish. 

And both were poor fwiw. 

[kopsy101]

13 minutes ago, craigcwwe said:

Rashford had a better season than Grealish. 

And both were poor fwiw. 

Rashford offers pace and a goal threat, so I expected him to go because of the attributes he possesses. He also seems to turn up for England. 

We have plenty of players who can do what Grealish does though - Keep the ball. 

[SteveUK]

I'd actually look to drop Kane in the future, play Bellingham up there as a deep lying forward, Foden as the 10, proper wingers, and Wharton or Mainoo in the midfield with Rice.

We're trying to shoehorn all the best players in and it's messing up the balance of the team.

 

[Coulthard's Jaw]

 

 

[oche balboa]

It was a terrible performance, But expected with this manager who is wasting a talented England side. TAA shouldn't be close to the XI, Bellingham perhaps needs to play a little deeper and this will push Foden up and we need someone to come in on the left. 

[eenie]

38 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

 

 

No bum flares then?

[Weezer]

10 hours ago, Lucas said:

As I asked earlier, I don't really know or understand where this 'Trent in midfield' idea materialised from, whose brainchild it is

Been talked about quite a bit at club level hasn’t it, by pundits and fans because people go overboard at the idea of a full back that can pass the ball? Doesn’t mean he’s going to make a good midfielder, it’s a completely different skill set and mentality.

Probably also a way of shoehorning Trent into the side because he shouldn’t get in at RB anyway right now if Walker, James and Trippier are all fit.

[TalkSport]

People seriously need to move on from the idea that TAA is a poor RB. 

Guy makes the odd mistake, which is to be expected, but then so does Walker. James has been laughably bad when he’s been fit to come out on pitch this season (like if TAA got that red card performance at SJP that James did, people would still be going on about it), and Trippier has made more mistakes in last 6 months of the season than TAA probably has his whole career.

[Weezer]

I don’t think he’s a poor RB, I just think we’ve got an embarrassment of riches in that position and when they’re all in form James, Walker and Trippier are better.

[Haguey]

James is a fantastic player when fully fit, which sadly is rarely. Really unfortunate a lot of our better players in weak positions are crocks

[metal_guitarist]

He shouldn't be in the squad, there's no need for him.

Is he good enough to play RB ahead of other options? No.
Is he good enough to play in midfield? No.
Is he good enough to play RWB? We don't play with wing-backs.
But he can play a long pass. Most professional footballers can ping a 60 yard pass whilst sat out on the wing under little to no pressure from an opposition player.
But he can take set pieces. So can - *checks* - Shaw, Rice, Saka, Kane, Bellingham, Trippier, Bowen, Eze, Palmer and Wharton.

So what's the point of him exactly?

[Haguey]

Mount is also great but even now I couldn't tell you where his best position is

[Baptista_8]

17 minutes ago, Weezer said:

Doesn’t mean he’s going to make a good midfielder, it’s a completely different skill set and mentality.

100% - it's like Villa fans going on about moving Pau into midfield because he can pass. No! As you say, entirely different skill set.

[Smallen]

didn't know rob had a YouTube channel 

Edited June 21 by Smallen

[Rob1981]

11 hours ago, Lucas said:

I don't really know or understand where this 'Trent in midfield' idea materialised from

I really can't be bothered trawling through the qualifying thread looking for gotchas.

But people were screaming for Southgate to drop Henderson/Gallagher/Phillips and play Trent there because he was doing it for Liverpool and everyone wanted us to attack teams more.

TAA played there against North Macedonia last year, and to be fair to him he laid on a goal with one of the best passes England have ever seen

But he's never been a serious contender to play that role against a Germany or a France... because he doesn't have the defensive discipline.  In which case, why use him there in the group games when we could be getting minutes into someone else?  We could have put Mainoo or Gallagher in there.  Sharpened up a few combinations of players that we might need later.  But then you do that... say we still only beat Serbia 1-0 and we have "played it safe" with Gallagher and TAA is on the bench.  People are still calling for Southgate's head and asking why we won't let the handbrake off.  "Trent is out best passer of the ball.  He should be in midfield so we can play on the front foot!"

People are talking as if there are easy answers.  There aren't.  But a good international side is about balancing players and choosing where to make the compromises.  And if it feels different to previous tournaments so far it's because we aren't seeing those compromises... we are just fielding the best individuals and praying it works.

Early days though.  Few team changes for Tuesday and it might all feel different.

Edited June 21 by Rob1981

[Baptista_8]

It's not just defensive discipline he lacks, he doesn't get on the ball anywhere near enough for us to control a game.

[themadsheep2001]

2 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

I really can't be bothered trawling through the qualifying thread looking for gotchas.

But people were screaming for him to drop Henderson/Gallagher/Phillips and play Trent there because he was doing it for Liverpool and everyone wanted us to attack teams more.

TAA played there against North Macedonia last year, and to be fair to him he laid on a goal with one of the best passes England have ever seen

 

But he's never been a serious contender to play that role against a Germany or a France... because he doesn't have the defensive discipline.  In which case, why use him there in the group games when we could be getting minutes into someone else?  We could have put Mainoo or Gallagher in there.  Sharpened up a few combinations of players that we might need later.  But then you do that... say we still only beat Serbia 1-0 and we have "played it safe" with Gallagher and TAA is on the bench.  People are still calling for Southgate's head and asking why we won't let the handbrake off.  "Trent is out best passer of the ball.  He should be in midfield so we can play on the front foot!"

People are talking as if there are easy answers.  There aren't.  But a good international side is about balancing players and choosing where to make the compromises.  And if it feels different to previous tournaments so far it's because we aren't seeing those compromises... we are just fielding the best individuals and praying it works.

Early days though.  Few team changes for Tuesday and it might all feel different.

Sorry but there are easy answers. And they are in the squad. Its not at all either/or like you say. 

Rice is either the 6, in which case its Bellingham or Mainoo. Or he is the 8, and its Wharton. The answer isnt Trent at CM, and its probably not Gallagher. No one is going to be screaming for either in midfield if we had played Bellingham/Wharton/Mainoo next to Rice if we had got a safe 1-0. They would ask why we didnt press the advantage which is an entirely different issue. But lets not at all pretend this is some terrible conundrum for Southgate. The selection is probably the easiest because hes got multiple good ones and insists on playing the poorer ones

[GunmaN1905]

2 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

People are talking as if there are easy answers.  There aren't.

Yes, there are.

Here's one for you. Play Bellingham in actual midfield. Position he played his entire career in until this season.
Just because Carlo Ancelotti thinks of something, it doesn't mean you should copy it.
You think Ancelotti would be playing Bellingham as a false nine if he had Kane?

1 minute ago, Baptista_8 said:

It's not just defensive discipline he lacks, he doesn't get on the ball anywhere near enough for us to control a game.

As I wrote the other day, deep midfield playmaker is arguably the most difficult position to play.
It takes many years of experience to fully understand where to move, when to drop deeper for the ball, how to position yourself when receiving it, how to set up so you're already in the motion of passing it on again, when to actually push forward. No explanation needed for defense.

Many players can make pinpoint passes when they're not pressured. And when you're playing as a full/wing back, you're always going to have way more time to think, way more space to operate and a way better view of the pitch since everything is on one side. Southgate thinking TAA could instantly translate his passing to the role is an insult to all midfielders.

[Pukey]

I will say, as poor as yesterday was, it really feels like the press has gone very, very overboard. The team definitely needs a reshuffle and Southgate is getting some very warranted criticism, but some of the reports today you'd think we'd drawn 1-1 with San Marino not Denmark.

I'm concerned with the performance, but I'm not sure calling this "a new low"  is fair either. 

[themadsheep2001]

Again reminder that Bellingham had been a box to box mid for club and country his career until September. There is a very, very easy solution staring us in the face. 

[themadsheep2001]

1 minute ago, Pukey said:

I will say, as poor as yesterday was, it really feels like the press has gone very, very overboard. The team definitely needs a reshuffle and Southgate is getting some very warranted criticism, but some of the reports today you'd think we'd drawn 1-1 with San Marino not Denmark.

I'm concerned with the performance, but I'm not sure calling this "a new low"  is fair either. 

Definitely not a new low. But just feels like the issues are unneeded and entirely self inflicted. 

[Smallen]

the more I think about it the more pissed off I am with Kane . Our out of possession work was absolutely trash and it all comes from the lack of intensity from the first engagement. Guy was just limping around all game. It was absolutely pathetic to watch.

How are the rest of the team behind him supposed to back up a press properly if the guy leading it is literally slow jogging towards the ball. 

Edited June 21 by Smallen

[themadsheep2001]

Also TAA definitely has a place in the squad, as a devastating attacking RB alternative to Walker. 

[Rob1981]

It's not an "easy answer" if it means pulling Bellingham into a deeper role at exactly the time that he is smashing it at club level and looks like the world's best #10  

If we limp out with him nowhere near the opposition box, then people are asking why we didn't play him in his best position.

[Pukey]

1 minute ago, Rob1981 said:

It's not an "easy answer" if it means pulling Bellingham into a deeper role at exactly the time that he is smashing it at club level and looks like the world's best #10  

If we limp out with him nowhere near the opposition box, then people are asking why we didn't play him in his best position.

I get that, but I really feel moving Bellingham deeper allows the whole balance of the squad to be much improved. I think he's going to play Gallagher there instead though. I just hope something's done about the left hand side as well though, cause we're just completely useless there.

[VP.]

7 minutes ago, Pukey said:

I will say, as poor as yesterday was, it really feels like the press has gone very, very overboard. The team definitely needs a reshuffle and Southgate is getting some very warranted criticism, but some of the reports today you'd think we'd drawn 1-1 with San Marino not Denmark.

I'm concerned with the performance, but I'm not sure calling this "a new low"  is fair either. 

On the brightside it'll only last until Tuesday then we'll have another new low, I'd imagine.

[WillHoward42]

3 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

It's not an "easy answer" if it means pulling Bellingham into a deeper role at exactly the time that he is smashing it at club level and looks like the world's best #10  

If we limp out with him nowhere near the opposition box, then people are asking why we didn't play him in his best position.

Yes but the fact we have Kane who also likes to occupy the #10 position is the issue. Bellingham doesn't have to contend with that for Real Madrid, which is why he has excelled.

I don't think there is anything to indicate the position he was playing before moving to Madrid isn't his best position either.

[VP.]

Just now, Pukey said:

I get that, but I really feel moving Bellingham deeper allows the whole balance of the squad to be much improved. I think he's going to play Gallagher there instead though. I just hope something's done about the left hand side as well though, cause we're just completely useless there.

Sorry to quote you again

But if Gallagher starts (which he more than likely will) Mainoo and Wharton may as well just pack their bags and go home as if they can't get in ahead of him they'll never play under Southgate.

[adhikapp]

Hell I'd start with Trent at LB over Trippier. I don't understand people here saying Trippier is good at LB, he never is. Theres even 4 better English LBs at Newcastle yet none of them are called up, but Southgate just keeps playing him.

[TalkSport]

18 minutes ago, metal_guitarist said:

He shouldn't be in the squad, there's no need for him.

Is he good enough to play RB ahead of other options? No.
Is he good enough to play in midfield? No.
Is he good enough to play RWB? We don't play with wing-backs.
But he can play a long pass. Most professional footballers can ping a 60 yard pass whilst sat out on the wing under little to no pressure from an opposition player.
But he can take set pieces. So can - *checks* - Shaw, Rice, Saka, Kane, Bellingham, Trippier, Bowen, Eze, Palmer and Wharton.

So what's the point of him exactly?

Walker though isn’t hands down better than him. Walker pace is all that’s on over TAA, literally that’s it. 

Like the rest of it is just rubbish because he plays for Liverpool. He is our best RB, and we’ll no doubt look back on in years to come and say “WTF were we doing with TAA”. 

But Konsa / Trippier are better RBs. 

[kopsy101]

James is the complete RB really, shame he's either a crock or angry.

I'm not sure what Walker offers other than 1v1 over Trent, he has no awareness, and actually he regularly gets skinned for goals (Sterling, Isak, Gordon, Brennan Johnson from this season alone, off the top of my head) - Something I can't remember happening for Trent, but it doesn't really get highlighted because it disproves the whole Walker good at defending narrative. 

Him in midfield isn't the final answer, but it's strange how he was probably the best (least bad  ) of our 4 midfielders yesterday but gets the criticism, there was also a notable worsening of the play once Gallagher came on. 

2 minutes ago, Smallen said:

the more I think about it the more pissed off I am with Kane . Our out of possession work was absolutely trash and it all comes from the lack of intensity from the first engagement. Guy was just limping around all game. It was absolutely pathetic to watch.

There's a clip floating around on the socials from Gary Lineker talking about the lumbering into midfield casually, allowing the defence to make the game more compact, since we had no runners it just made it difficult for us. He was saying he should have been sharply feinting runs then coming short, to keep the defence from coming forward and making the game tight. Quite interesting really. 

Like I said earlier, I think who's playing is really the least of the problems. Literally every option we have for every position has been better than opposition. 

[Pukey]

1 minute ago, VP. said:

Sorry to quote you again

But if Gallagher starts (which he more than likely will) Mainoo and Wharton may as well just pack their bags and go home as if they can't get in ahead of him they'll never play under Southgate.

How dare you quote me on a discussion forum  

And I would rather play Mainoo or Wharton as well, or drop Bellingham deeper, but I think he's going to go with Gallagher. At least Gallagher will be energetic I suppose? But yeah he's my least favoured option.

[Weezer]

10 minutes ago, Smallen said:

the more I think about it the more pissed off I am with Kane . Our out of possession work was absolutely trash and it all comes from the lack of intensity from the first engagement. Guy was just limping around all game. It was absolutely pathetic to watch.

How are the rest of the team behind him supposed to back up a press properly if the guy leading it is literally slow jogging towards the ball. 

That’s always been Kane though hasn’t it? He’s never been one to charge around and press defenders. It’s just that his goals demand that he’s in the side.

7 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

It's not an "easy answer" if it means pulling Bellingham into a deeper role at exactly the time that he is smashing it at club level and looks like the world's best #10

But he was also smashing it as one of the world’s best #8s before this season too.

[Rob1981]

2 minutes ago, Pukey said:

I get that, but I really feel moving Bellingham deeper allows the whole balance of the squad to be much improved. I think he's going to play Gallagher there instead though. I just hope something's done about the left hand side as well though, cause we're just completely useless there.

Yeah, Gallagher/Mainoo for TAA is the easy choice at this point.  But bringing on more defensive discipline isn't going to fix problems in terms of creativity further up the pitch.  So maybe either you drop Bellingham back, move Foden centrally... keep Gallagher/Mainoo on the bench still but bring Gordon or Eze in.  Or if you want to keep Bellingham as the 10, you switch Gallagher/Mainoo for TAA... but then you have to look at dropping Foden for now. 

I would also play Mainoo over Gallagher btw, but I'm not sure if Southgate will.  But Gallagher picking up a second yellow against Slovenia might be the plot twist we need ahead of the R16.

[metal_guitarist]

6 minutes ago, TalkSport said:

Walker though isn’t hands down better than him. Walker pace is all that’s on over TAA, literally that’s it. 

Like the rest of it is just rubbish because he plays for Liverpool. He is our best RB, and we’ll no doubt look back on in years to come and say “WTF were we doing with TAA”. 

But Konsa / Trippier are better RBs. 

Konsa is probably the best option we have available out of the squad there if you have the RB tucking in with the CBs to make a 3 with the LB high up the field. Have Saka hold the width and whoever is playing at 10 drift into the right half-space.

[Smallen]

3 minutes ago, Weezer said:

That’s always been Kane though hasn’t it? He’s never been one to charge around and press defenders. It’s just that his goals demand that he’s in the side.

sort of, but I've definitely seen him play with bags more energy and intensity for both England and Spurs (especially under Poch where he was probably just fitter full stop)

[TalkSport]

Just had a quick look so may off the mark, but TAA has started just 6 games for us at RB. Won all 6, conceded in just 1 of the them. So not like he’s a total liability there. 2 games at RB since summer 2020. 1-0 Austraila, 1-0 Austria. 

But roll him out in CM or RM/RWB where he doesn’t play for club, and hang him out to dry.   

[TM]

10 minutes ago, Pukey said:

How dare you quote me on a discussion forum  

And I would rather play Mainoo or Wharton as well, or drop Bellingham deeper, but I think he's going to go with Gallagher. At least Gallagher will be energetic I suppose? But yeah he's my least favoured option.

Gallagher at one point looked like a walking red card to me, he came on and got booked and then had a few more where the ref could have punished him

Bellingham back to a CM role but can go forward if he wants, Rice tries to keep the back door shut between the midfield and defence, Foden goes to where Bellingham was and a left sided winger on the left so probably Gordon.  I'd probably start Watkins for the 3rd game but it's Southgate so he won't.  Could go Wharton/Mainoo to give Rice the rest before the knockouts.  It looks like if England take a lead, the tactics are to sit on it which probably won't change but I'd just "take the handbrake off" as people demand and just keep attacking, England have the team to score 2-3 if they are in the right places

Kane looks still injured to me but it could just be the end of a long season etc and a team annoyance at the tactics being used

[VP.]

2 minutes ago, Smallen said:

sort of, but I've definitely seen him play with bags more energy and intensity for both England and Spurs (especially under Poch where he was probably just fitter full stop)

For me he uses all his energy dropping 30 yards deeper than he should be then having to try and run 60 yards forward to get near the opposition box.

If just stayed up front, led the line, started the press (which he'd only need to run 10/20 yards or so when doing that) he'd actually be in the positions he should be, get more chances himself, be able to bring others into the the game and also bring the whole team up 20+ yards in doing so.

It can only be Southgate telling him not to do any of that, but if he is meant to be staying further up but not doing so then he has to be taken out of the team.

[metal_guitarist]

If Bellingham is moved deeper then you could play Kane as the 10 with Toney or Watkins ahead of him, especially against the weaker sides. His passing is good, he can shoot from distance and he'd still be a threat arriving late into the box.

[Smallen]

7 minutes ago, VP. said:

For me he uses all his energy dropping 30 yards deeper than he should be then having to try and run 60 yards forward to get near the opposition box.

 

agreed. It's especially a problem when we're playing against a back 3/5 like we have in the last two games because they always have at least one spare man there to pass it to in their build up and we never have the numbers up there to press. Our initial press is basically non-existent. 

Edited June 21 by Smallen

[VP.]

3 minutes ago, InigoPatinkin said:

I've been in the camp of "Southgate is a good international manager" pretty much since he got the job, but he really looks out of ideas at the moment. I think his squad choice has been poor, he's failed to correct issues in how the team is set up and just doesn't seem to be able to get the team to be proactive for 65+ minutes before they decide to sit back. 

If he knew he was starting Foden on the left he HAD to take a leftback up provides width on that flank for him other than Shaw. I don't care whether he had to go down to the Championship to find one. Trippier has actually done the job asked of him relatively well, but the job asked of his just isn't going to win tournaments for England. 

I also don't understand how Palmer isn't coming on ahead of Bowen on that right hand side when we need a goal. 

Football has moved on but he hasn't, this whole drop back and just soak up pressure mentality doesn't work anymore. The best sides play with high intensity for 90 mins, look at Spain last night they were just relentless in wanting to win the ball back. If we were to meet them as things currently stand they would absolutely destroy us.

[TalkSport]

Despite all the fall out, a couple of minor tweaks and some actual coaching on training ground, and this is all a distant memory because the talent is strong. 

More than enough individual match winners in the side to scare all opposition, just needs more coherent play/energy for them to impact further up the pitch. 

[themadsheep2001]

33 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

It's not an "easy answer" if it means pulling Bellingham into a deeper role at exactly the time that he is smashing it at club level and looks like the world's best #10  

If we limp out with him nowhere near the opposition box, then people are asking why we didn't play him in his best position.

Bellingham has been smashing it in a box to box role. Thats how he ended up at Real Madrid man!

If we limp out it they will be asking why the whole squad is set up badly. This idea that the world of English fans will be mad because Bellingham is at CM doesnt exist when he made his name there. 

[kopsy101]

9 minutes ago, TalkSport said:

Just had a quick look so may off the mark, but TAA has started just 6 games for us at RB. Won all 6, conceded in just 1 of the them. So not like he’s a total liability there. 2 games at RB since summer 2020. 1-0 Austraila, 1-0 Austria. 

But roll him out in CM or RM/RWB where he doesn’t play for club, and hang him out to dry.   

He's asked to be more disciplined for England, as opposed to Klopps full scale attack style. So he does what's asked really. He's obviously still rubbish in 1v1's, but stats show that isn't close to the main reason for teams conceding. 

[Weezer]

3 minutes ago, TalkSport said:

Despite all the fall out, a couple of minor tweaks and some actual coaching on training ground, and this is all a distant memory because the talent is strong. 

More than enough individual match winners in the side to scare all opposition, just needs more coherent play/energy for them to impact further up the pitch. 

Haven’t we been saying this for every England side since our last ‘Golden generation’? 

[Rob1981]

7 minutes ago, TM said:

It looks like if England take a lead, the tactics are to sit on it which probably won't change

See, this is the difference for me.  We don't actually look like we've been instructed to sit on a 1-0 lead.  We look like we are trying to get more goals but can't find the right combinations of players and movement and final balls to get through the opposition.

Again, the comparison with previous tournaments... last night was NOTHING like the 0-0 draw with USA at the World Cup.  I said it at the time, but it looked like we approached the second half of that USA game almost like a training exercise.  "Show me that you can keep the ball and shut them out and not concede chances with four at the back instead of five!"... and then we did it, and then that gave Southgate the confidence to go with four at the back against France and take the game to them.  Which ALMOST worked, at a time when we'd never played four at the back against a real top side before.  People moaned that we didn't beat USA but it at least looked like we had a system and we were using that game to work on stuff for later in the tournament.  We definitely weren't doing that last night