FM 25 DEVELOPMENT UPDATE

[akkm]

Right.

Let's keep it balanced in here and several things can be true at once.

- yes woman's football should be included and that's all well and rosy

- yes woman's football could have contributed to the delay this year even though the bigger issue seems to be the unity element (but we don't know for sure). I'd opine its more heavily weighted towards the unity issues. It could well be a combination of both however the weighting breaks down.

One poster gave an example of his own personal work experience of moving to unity with a great overview and insights into how it affected things. It's actually well worth a read and I wouldn't be surprised if SI was having the same things going on with them

- SI hasn't handled this years launch well. Certainly vis a vis it's time frame for launch and planned output and expectations for what it could manage to do. This is clearly undeniable and that sits with SIs management team/s.

- SIs communication is questionable to say the least...carrying on from last years promising what it did and not delivering it would be a range from deliberately misleading to gin up sales and have a cash grab of people's money to an overly enthusiastic marketing team/whoever does comms...ultimately that marketing team/comms is unrealistic and the game isn't delivering as per marketing spiel..of course this can happen/happens with other companies but the crux of the issue is how SI has positioned itself over the years as a small, caring community based company with high integrity and having its customers best interests at heart and the core of its strategy for development and their gaming experience. That has framed people's impression/perception of SI.

Whether some would like to admit it some people could certainly conclude that this isn't really the case anymore and their impressions are jarred making it a big deal for people who have held those impressions...and that's fair enough.

At this point I will say I've had dealings with a few working in SI and each one is really nice and passionate about the game and wants the best for it.

That said the direction the game has taken recently seems somewhat disconnected to my personal experience with dealing with some SI staff. It's only speculation as to why that's been happening and I'll refrain from doing that at the moment anyway lol.

Anyway, in essence many things can be happening at once but the bottom line is SI has failed to deliver on its promises recently

One thing I do want to call out is these daft conclusions on resource allocation

This is from Miles...from 2021

"We also know that adding women’s football to Football Manager is going to cost millions and that the short-term return it delivers will be minimal. But that’s not the point."

So that's clearly money that could have been allocated elsewhere with different decision making.

SI does not have an infinite pool of resources therefore resource allocation is a thing. SI will operate with a budget and allocate that accordingly. How they do that is entirely their choice/decision but anyone arguing that allocating millions to women's football doesnt affect other resource/budget allocation is factually incorrect.

Of course it affects allocation. Anyone arguing to the contrary is wrong, disingenuous, not understanding how resources/budgets work or allowing their bias to cloud their judgement on this stuff or some combination of above.

Unless of course I've missed something which I'd be fascinated to entertain the thinking behind how it hasn't lol.

So can people stop saying resource allocation isn't affected by including women's football...its misleading people to say its not. Unless of course SI have got people to work on women's football entirely for free which Miles indicated wasn't going to be the case and is highly unlikely lol.

Again it's entirely up to SI to allocate said resources. Has the allocation affected this years release...we don't know that necessarily but it certainly could have.

All we know for sure is SI have made decisions which have resulted in this years release being pushed back twice already and by 4 months from the original planned release date.

That's not great
 

[Kickballz]

14 minutes ago, DP said:

People under pressure from publishers and sponsors can make poor decisions. There is little doubt in my mind a poor decision was made in this case, based on the apology and the evidence of what we have seen. 

This.

Ultimately they had no choice to delay to save the franchise but it is lessons learned.

Despite the mistakes, I respect this decision. They were going to get grief whatever they do, but they clearly had to do this. They will learn you can't push impossible deadlines.

[spursfan]

7 minutes ago, HighFlyingDwarf said:

The delay would have caused a lot less problems if they had not asked for preorders first. That's a real breach of trust here when all the way up until the most recent announcement they were swearing by the end of November release date.

Technical matters sorted then (moving on and nothing left to be revisited until March or the next update, whichever is sooner).

Marketing and communications are admittedly much left to be desired -- nothing much to be done here besides venting and complaining (unlikely to reach SI though).

[akkm]

13 hours ago, samrnpage said:

At the end of the day, if you're not misogynistic, the inclusion of women's football doesn't bother you.

If you find yourself upset by the inclusion of women's football, it’s genuinely a character issue.

Nothing about the current situation that Sports Interactive, SEGA, and FM25 find themselves in has been caused by women’s football being added in. However, because of your misogyny, you want others to believe that it has—and you start spreading misinformation about it taking resources to validate your views.

More people will likely play the Women’s leagues than some of the leagues already in the database, and Sports Interactive even created a whole new department for it. These two points alone invalidate nearly every argument made against it.

I can guarantee that every argument posted by these misogynistic butthurt snowflakes against adding women to the game has already been countered and debunked in these threads.

I know someone whose daughter is incredibly excited about the chance to manage the Arsenal women’s team, as she’s part of the youth setup there. How dare anyone suggest we should deny that opportunity just because she happens to be female.

There isn’t a single valid reason why women’s football shouldn’t be part of the most realistic and comprehensive football simulation game in the world. 

Finally, I believe the moderators should make a post clearly explaining this stance on the subject and nip it in the bud

Women's inclusion in the game is not a debatable subject and It's not a subject we should be debating on these threads. Its just nice people telling hateful snowflakes to shut up and stop spreading hate and misinformation. 

 

Hey @santy001this is one I meant. 

it's unnecessarily aggressive and misleading in its own conclusions while calling out others alleged misinforming.

This is the funny thing about stuff like this is when people call out others intolerance...while being intolerant themselves 🤔🤫😃 

Anyway I'm sure you guys are on high alert moderating but this one is particularly standout in the need for consistency there

[HighFlyingDwarf]

At this point I think anybody giving views either way on womens football is arguing in bad faith. It's been done to death. Nobody cares about the culture war or the woke agenda nonsense. It's not misogyny to point out that it is a big part of the project which affected resource allocation, but it has nothing to do with the delay.

The project has just been badly managed. I would have left it another year and gotten the core gameplay from FM24 into FM25, then worried about getting an entirely new database for Women's football in.

[mackem10]

43 minutes ago, forameuss said:

Wow. Wonder why they didn't think of that. Why didn't they just use clairvoyance from the start?!

Because they were so well managed that they were either still doing game breaking ammendments that they knew full well would make the roadmap look daft at the 11th hour or more likely didn't have a game and the roadmap was being "optimistic"? 

Edited Saturday at 09:43 by mackem10

[Dbuk1]

If you go back to the beginning then you can see by the wording that they knew the game was not going to be great but a starting point for the future. They were prepared to launch the game without a big feature (international management). My guess is they have found an issue with another feature and realised the amount of blow back they would get if they cancelled anymore things from the release. So they have decided enough is enough and rip it all up and get it polished and ready for March. Which is a positive step.

[mackem10]

7 hours ago, G81 said:

Why crikey? It's a reasonable, measured, factual statement.

It's my personal favourite of the thread, it's got everything. 

 

If I didn't know better, I'd suggest it was someone from the other side side of that arguments coin making trouble. 

[mackem10]

3 minutes ago, Dbuk1 said:

If you go back to the beginning then you can see by the wording that they knew the game was not going to be great but a starting point for the future. They were prepared to launch the game without a big feature (international management). My guess is they have found an issue with another feature and realised the amount of blow back they would get if they cancelled anymore things from the release. So they have decided enough is enough and rip it all up and get it polished and ready for March. Which is a positive step.

To be fair I think the Miles statement about people expecting fm24 plus plus plus was as open as he could possibly be. Was to my mind saying, it's not in a good shape. 

[spursfan]

5 minutes ago, mackem10 said:

To be fair I think the Miles statement about people expecting fm24 plus plus plus was as open as he could possibly be. Was to my mind saying, it's not in a good shape. 

I didn't read it as such; the main point for me was it would be stripped down as they intended to build it up as an entirely new generation (CM3.0) if you like. 

[mackem10]

1 minute ago, spursfan said:

I didn't read it as such; the main point for me was it would be stripped down as they intended to build it up as an entirely new generation (CM3.0) if you like. 

Yea I think many did the same, impossible to know his true thoughts on it as he wouldn't have been able to actually say what was my perception. But at this point it does appear possible. 

[Kickballz]

1 minute ago, spursfan said:

I didn't read it as such; the main point for me was it would be stripped down as they intended to build it up as an entirely new generation (CM3.0) if you like. 

There was a lot of big talk. I'm sure it all seemed realistic back before the reality dawned.

1 minute ago, mackem10 said:

Yea I think many did the same, impossible to know his true thoughts on it as he wouldn't have been able to actually say what was my perception. But at this point it does appear possible. 

I don't doubt his true thoughts were it was going to be what he said it was He wouldn't be the first boss to find things are easier said than done.

[spursfan]

2 minutes ago, Kickballz said:

There was a lot of big talk. I'm sure it all seemed realistic back before the reality dawned.

I don't doubt his true thoughts were it was going to be what he said it was He wouldn't be the first boss to find things are easier said than done.

There is a precedent: CM4, the precursor to FM2005 -- each generational transition is prone (almost built-in) to come with delays tbh.

[RandomGuy.]

1 hour ago, DP said:

It’s not really speculation. It’s based on what was shown. To only be able to show ‘wireframe’ screenshots - ie not actually finished screenshots - so soon to release was a big red flag and quite unprecedented compared to past years and other game studios. Nothing finished has ever been shown, which is enough evidence to suggest things were further off than they should be. 

Yeah this is where my major worries really appeared. Created efforts, with errors you only make when you're rushing, rather than actual screenshot this late in the day was a big problem.

I can only assume the marketing team was pushing to start building hype/releasing the game for pre-orders with pressure from the financial team, while the development team were pushing them to hold off as the game wasn't ready, and its led to the weird "here's a road map with no destinations" thing we got.

The delay will be down to the engine switch. You could fully believe theres parts of the code that haven't been touched in 5+ years and, with everyone having unique processes and staff coming/going, there's probably a lot of old code that just won't make sense and needs entirely rewritten in every way rather than written down a different way for the new engine. This might be why the underdeveloped International management part is struggling to be redone.

Ultimately taking time pressures off should lead to less mistakes in the code and as such future versions will benefit from that stability, instead of chasing errors/bugs. It's not great and it's annoying it's been delayed, but I think SI have enough credit to deserve time to see where the game is by the time FM26 releases. 

[madeirabhoy]

a few people have said SI could rush out a data update for fm24, but I guess a more profitable way would be to rush out a rebadged 24 with a data update as fm25. offer any refunds to preorders who want it, but if you buy it now or keep your preorder you get the proper game when its ready in march.

[anagain]

1 hour ago, HighFlyingDwarf said:

You're conducting some interesting mental gymnastics to excuse the fact that they missed an issue that would have caused the game to be delayed until March, when they originally announced a November release date, and then had the gall to ask people for their money.

Pretty clear to anybody who's looking at this within context that the preorder numbers and general uproar caused this, not any one particular bug. Did SI even cite that in their announcement? No they didn't.

Should be pretty clear to anyone that this is game development, not brick wall building.

[anagain]

1 hour ago, HighFlyingDwarf said:

The delay would have caused a lot less problems if they had not asked for preorders first. That's a real breach of trust here when all the way up until the most recent announcement they were swearing by the end of November release date.

The preorder business is huge in gaming. It's not just SI. People need to remember that.

[HighFlyingDwarf]

2 minutes ago, anagain said:

Should be pretty clear to anyone that this is game development, not brick wall building.

False analogy. That's not relevant to the point I made.

5 minutes ago, anagain said:

The preorder business is huge in gaming. It's not just SI. People need to remember that.

Erm yes...I don't think that has any relevance to my post...

[FM'd-BRO]

14 hours ago, samrnpage said:

At the end of the day, if you're not misogynistic, the inclusion of women's football doesn't bother you.

If you find yourself upset by the inclusion of women's football, it’s genuinely a character issue.

Nothing about the current situation that Sports Interactive, SEGA, and FM25 find themselves in has been caused by women’s football being added in. However, because of your misogyny, you want others to believe that it has—and you start spreading misinformation about it taking resources to validate your views.

More people will likely play the Women’s leagues than some of the leagues already in the database, and Sports Interactive even created a whole new department for it. These two points alone invalidate nearly every argument made against it.

I can guarantee that every argument posted by these misogynistic butthurt snowflakes against adding women to the game has already been countered and debunked in these threads.

I know someone whose daughter is incredibly excited about the chance to manage the Arsenal women’s team, as she’s part of the youth setup there. How dare anyone suggest we should deny that opportunity just because she happens to be female.

There isn’t a single valid reason why women’s football shouldn’t be part of the most realistic and comprehensive football simulation game in the world. 

Finally, I believe the moderators should make a post clearly explaining this stance on the subject and nip it in the bud

Women's inclusion in the game is not a debatable subject and It's not a subject we should be debating on these threads. Its just nice people telling hateful snowflakes to shut up and stop spreading hate and misinformation. 

 

 

You really are on a one man mission to discredit anybody that has a personal opinion on the women's inclusion.

Labelling everyone that downplays the WL misogynistic is wild, just chill with the shill mentality. And you have the audacity to call people snowflakes the hypocrisy man. 

The game has been delayed for many reason that are out of our control we can only speculate. The move to the new engine is cleary the main factor, incorporating the W database in the new code is something that will contribute, you can't deny that. 

Put your pitchfork down and have grown up conversations.

 

Edited Saturday at 11:13 by FM'd-BRO

[Kickballz]

10 minutes ago, madeirabhoy said:

a few people have said SI could rush out a data update for fm24, but I guess a more profitable way would be to rush out a rebadged 24 with a data update as fm25. offer any refunds to preorders who want it, but if you buy it now or keep your preorder you get the proper game when its ready in march.

I think the fact they are contracted to release a game every year is the most important factor.

In my opinion, the release of FM26 will be pushed back as well to give an acceptable support time frame for Fm25. Personally I think there will have to be a final database update in September for FM25 and then Fm 26 will aim for a Feb-March release.

Of course this is pure speculation, and I am sure this has not even close to being decided,

[anagain]

3 minutes ago, HighFlyingDwarf said:

False analogy. That's not relevant to the point I made.

Erm yes...I don't think that has any relevance to my post...

You're assuming things are simple in game development. They're not.

You also have no idea what the situation is in the development of FM25 and you're still criticising SI based on that misassumption.

I can udnerstand people criticising SI's communication. I have said more than a few times that I think they can learn from studios like Coffee Stain, but we really don't know the pressures of development in the switch to Unity and devleopment can change massively in a short time. I've followed a lot of games - I play a lot of games - and I wonder if some FMers really understand what goes on.

Many don't seem to realise that preorders are a part of the games business now. A big part. They're heavily criticised, and many people will say 'don't preorder'. You do have a choice.

[HighFlyingDwarf]

40 minutes ago, anagain said:

You're assuming things are simple in game development. They're not.

You also have no idea what the situation is in the development of FM25 and you're still criticising SI based on that misassumption.

I can udnerstand people criticising SI's communication. I have said more than a few times that I think they can learn from studios like Coffee Stain, but we really don't know the pressures of development in the switch to Unity and devleopment can change massively in a short time. I've followed a lot of games - I play a lot of games - and I wonder if some FMers really understand what goes on.

Many don't seem to realise that preorders are a part of the games business now. A big part. They're heavily criticised, and many people will say 'don't preorder'. You do have a choice.

No I did not. You need to read what I said properly, and then review your own logic not based on what I put, but what SI themselves have said.

Quote

Pretty clear to anybody who's looking at this within context that the preorder numbers and general uproar caused this, not any one particular bug. Did SI even cite that in their announcement? No they didn't.

Quoting the statement directly:

Quote

Timelines were already tight and, as rightly pointed out by many of your recent comments, we were simply rushing too much and in danger of compromising our usual standards. This has put an enormous amount of pressure on everyone working across the studio, who are all passionately committed to delivering the best game possible. 

They were fully prepared to rush the game out of the door. So to go over what you said.

Quote

You're assuming things are simple in game development. They're not.

Never something I claimed, or assumed.

Quote

You also have no idea what the situation is in the development of FM25 and you're still criticising SI based on that misassumption.

SI have self admitted that they were rushing the game.

Quote

Many don't seem to realise that preorders are a part of the games business now. A big part. They're heavily criticised, and many people will say 'don't preorder'. You do have a choice.

I've never made any comment about preorders. I think that's a choice for individuals, but to be clear, if anybody preordered FM25 on a wing and a prayer based on the non information provided, I have some magic beans you might be interested in.

Edited Saturday at 11:35 by HighFlyingDwarf

[RandomGuy.]

32 minutes ago, madeirabhoy said:

a few people have said SI could rush out a data update for fm24, but I guess a more profitable way would be to rush out a rebadged 24 with a data update as fm25. offer any refunds to preorders who want it, but if you buy it now or keep your preorder you get the proper game when its ready in march.

I'm not sure they even could bring out a Data update for 24 without taking resources away from FM25?

There's got to be different things in place for the new engine that's already in place in the database, so you'd be asking them to completely rebuild it back to FM24 spec, which likely break everything, then rebuild it all over again to FM25 spec.

[Velja93]

Why are they not making football manager womens 25 as a separate game to see how many are really interested to pay and support womens football for real.Game doesnt need to cost 50 euros at beggining, make lower price to popularize the game.Start with 6,7 playable leagues, then upgrade by time.Thats the right way to build something.

Some guys really love misoginy word and they are opssesed with it.You are not helping anyone by constantly repeating.

Real problem is that football manager(sega) dissapoints users again and again, years after years, and people have had enough.

l understand anger, because sega doesnt care about people who build this game by supporting her for 20 years.

Fm is bad last few years, and they need to make something really solid to get back on track.

Maybe the womens football is excuse for making bad game last years.

Make great game, and nobody will have anything bad to say against womens football.

They needed to upgrade game to next level, and then work on womens football.

Problem is when you channel your anger towards womens football, not sports interactive.

fm 24- set piece manager.

fm 25-delayed by 5 monts.

 

 

 

 

 

[MrPompey]

On 10/10/2024 at 18:23, DP said:

It’s not just the data though is it? It’s also the animations and how it plays out in the match engine. 

I’m not suggesting women’s football is the sole reason for the delay but people saying it’s just data are being disingenuous. 

If so then launch Men in Nov and Women in March

[CaptainSa]

3 hours ago, DP said:

(roadmaps in general always have dates in any industry)

To be fair this very much isn't always the case, but road maps do tend to be a touch more detailed than what SI put out. 

Edited Saturday at 11:53 by CaptainSa

[Harima83]

Disappointing this delay, anyway I appreciate that Sports Interactive made the painful decision to postpone the game in Spring when it is ready.

In these years we've seen many games released in very bad conditions, from indie to AAA games. Sports Interactive prefers loosing money giving FM25 in decent conditions rather than releasing a non-ready game in November.

We already have had CM3 and CM4 released in Spring. I hope FM25 will be a huge progress as much as those editions, and I think Sports Interactive has this intention.

 

[Velja93]

9 minutes ago, b.sinisa said:

Completely agree with you a lot of users will make you misogynistic if you say anything bad about women football, maybe i just don't want to play woman football as ai don't like it is it excuse to make the game late for 5 months, no its not do changes to me is it there woman clubs still no am i misogynistic for that?

Every opinion matter.Fm community is not about politics.Its about love for the game , football passion, and escaping outside world problems.Not judging people who dont want to play womens football, or judging people who are excited about womans game.

[SkyNoudyo]

15 hours ago, qwerty22 said:

 

Because SI themselves complained about how difficult it was to add women's football prior to FM 24 and blamed it on the poor support we got and unfixed bugs.

 

Is there hope of keeping international football after the delay because they also said they'll need more time to get it right?

This is me speculating of course, but there is a difference between having to jam an entirely new game mode into a done-to-death game interface, and working on it from the start. So while women’s football may cause some delay, I think the issue is this project has turned out to be creating a new game altogether for the developers. New interface, new playing style, new engine, new everything. 
 

It is surprising that international football is this much of an effort for the development team to complete though.

Edited Saturday at 12:12 by SkyNoudyo

[DavutOzkan]

General gist of this thread. 

 

[Matteo3champions]

I’ve read a lot of opinions, and few of them i’ve read too much frustractions.

i’ve a small company in Italy, and i know how is difficult to publicize and  make a completely new product/collection that is totally different with the past. 
 

when you do a totally new product, there are a lot of unexpected things that could coming up, and more of them come after you launch the collection. 
 

i’m a customer of eidos/SI since 2001, my grandma of my father side bought the game for me before Christmas because i was impressed after i’ve read about cm on a magazine.  i remember also the delay of CM 02-03, i was 13 years old, until 2010 i used to buy pc games to physical retails, and the internet world wasn’t developed as today,  and social media don’t exist. I call my retail every day to have news about the game, and one day when i call him (i remember it was around Easter period), and he said “the game is arrived”, i can’t believe to his words, and i was the happiest guy in this world. 
 

now i’m 34 years old, i got married 3 years and half ago, i’ve my job, i hope to be a father very soon, it changed a lot of things in my life , my grandma rest in peace since 2014, but two things has never changed in my life: the team i support (Inter Milan), and the passion of Football manager Series.

on thursday, i read the news from SI on “X” at 4:02 pm, i was disappointed and astonished at the same time, and now i’m still shocked about that. 

i’ve changed a lot of friends from 2001, but only one is still in my life, and that’s FOOTBALL MANAGER. 

Now, what i want to say is: THANK YOU SI GAMES, thank you Miles, thank you SEGA and thank you developers, researches, testers and the others who i forget to mention, who works for passion as my passion is, everyday, for this WONDERFUL GAME. 

As i said in one of my previous post in this discussion, i preordered the game as i do from a lot of time, the day of the announcement. I won’t never ask a refund, because is my way to say THANKS for this 23 years. Now they NEED our support , our patience. I don’t want to be a hero, i don’t want to be special, i’m disappointed and angry as one of you, but now i think that we have to respect everyone who works or spent a lot of time to the creation of the best game in the world.

What i hope now, is that Miles and SI Games will keeping work hard for release this version, and i also know that most of you Who are now saying “i’ll skip to FM 26”, will buy the game because you love this game as me and you’ll never be the same without this masterpiece that is simply a part of your life.

LONG LIFE TO SPORTS INTERACTIVE. 

[Nickg07]

24 minutes ago, SkyNoudyo said:

This is me speculating of course, but there is a difference between having to jam an entirely new game mode into a done-to-death game interface, and working on it from the start. So while women’s football may cause some delay, I think the issue is this project has turned out to be creating a new game altogether for the developers. New interface, new playing style, new engine, new everything. 
 

It is surprising that international football is this much of an effort for the development team to complete though.

 

Definitely but maybe implementing 2 projects at the same time added to the chaos.

 

Could they not have completed the Unity migration and then added in womens football next year once everything was stable?

[ChrisNUFC]

Anyone blaming this on Women's Football being added should take a bath. 

Let's be brutally honest here, even as fans, I'd like to think we all saw the degrading quality in Football Manager since FM21 (if not earlier). I even swallowed my pride when the price was increased. 

I gave it a pass, as there was this belief that something better was coming along with a new match engine and then a new engine entirely. Then I found out it was Unity. I've seen Unity games, I've tried to develop in Unity... Unity would not be the first engine I'd have turned to for Football Manager. Unity is notorious for being difficult to manage database and memory leaks, as well as integrating external mods. I have no idea if it is Unity, but I can't help but think of Cities Skylines 2 switch to Unity and all the issue it had (and is still having). 

I had already written FM25 off as a placeholder FM and I'm still not convinced we'll have FM as we knew it until 3-4 releases down the line. I'm skepitcal we'll get an external data editor. 

The last 5 years or so have really shown how little Miles thinks of the fanbase with his constant PR lies. FM24 "most polished version ever". 

They've been working on the Unity transition for several years now, at the cost of major updates to the 'legacy' FM version. Yet, here we are. 

Edited Saturday at 13:29 by ChrisNUFC

[jcafcwbb]

2 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

I'm not sure they even could bring out a Data update for 24 without taking resources away from FM25?

There's got to be different things in place for the new engine that's already in place in the database, so you'd be asking them to completely rebuild it back to FM24 spec, which likely break everything, then rebuild it all over again to FM25 spec.

Surely they would just update the database used in FM24 on the FM24 engine with the transfers in the August 2024 transfer window and add another database to the FM24 game. The update we are asking for has nothing to do with anything concerned with FM25. I think you are over-complicating things.

From a PR point of view they need to move resources to this.

You would hope they haven't deleted off the FM24 files yet.

Edited Saturday at 13:28 by jcafcwbb

[Chooxen]

I think to be honest the delay is symptomatic of a bigger problem than development resources. It's more about what decisions about resource allocation signify about the direction of the game.

Diverting resources to convert to Unity is not good given what they're using it for. Their main priority seems to be to streamline the UI across all three platforms. This is obviously a decision undertaken for developer ease, not for the ease of players. Clicking through multiple screens of boxes to get to information that could be displayed in one list is not going to be fun. I would bet a lot of money that the UI will not be easily customisable and that perhaps won't even be moddable to make it anything like it currently is. I am predicting this to be the #1 source of frustration and player complaint on day one and I think it's one the playerbase is currently sleeping on.

The problem with women's football is not the resources allocated to it, it's how it's being implemented. There will be no international women's football, which is the leading game mode most would be interested in. I understand that women's football will be in the regular game, which opens up the prospect of continual updates about clubs you cannot play against and players you cannot sign. And rightly or wrongly, introducing women's football and some of their actions around it (e.g., removing weight) has opened a political can of worms they didn't need.  It indicates they're introducing women's football just to say that have done so, rather than making it a fun game feature people actually want to play.

There's also the issue of game feature removal. Why remove international football? It's already there, its players are already in the game. There's nothing fundamentally different about how it works in the game than how any other league works. Why remove player shouts? Yes, they're a bit predictable, but it's a piece of immersion that allows players to get out their frustrations watching a game in a way that might actually affect its outcome. At best, this suggests they want to make the game simpler, not more complex or immersive. At worst, they intend to sell these features back to us as DLC or battlepass content. That last bit is a little speculative, but in the current climate, it would hardly be surprising. More likely, they want to simplify the game, which is not something I ever hear people ask for.

Delaying this game to March isn't going to fix the above issues. All we'll get is a less broken version of a game that is considerably worse than FM24. The reason has nothing to do with development skill or resources or time, and everything to do about development direction and how out of touch it is becoming with the playerbase.

 

[grade]

I Think Zealand in this video below sums up, the overall points I have with SI and Football Manager at this point.

I will be waiting for the data release of the 24/25 season in the upcoming days...

Edited Saturday at 13:31 by grade

[(sic)]

2 hours ago, HighFlyingDwarf said:

 

They were fully prepared to rush the game out of the door. 

 

That really depends on how you read it though.

 

I read it as, they simply had to rush to meet the deadline, and they realized that even if they do rush it, the game will be nowhere near ready. Hence the delay.

 

They haven't been "fully prepared to rush the game out of the door", rather, they HAD TO rush in order to get it ready for the release. I mean, maybe it's not coming across as different statements, and I'm trying my best to point out the difference, but to me what you said, and what they said are not the same.

Your version reads as: "They were happy with just rushing the game out and publishing a half-baked version of it" 

Yet their statement is actually the opposite. Yes, they had to rush, but they didn't want to compromise the game quality, and they didn't want to release a half-done game, just so they can get it out by November. 
That's why the delayed it further, all the way until March. They don't want to rush anymore, and compromise quality due to that. They want to take time, and make sure they are able to actually finish the game, and to make sure it works, before they publish it.

 

[Robbie Hood]

51 minutes ago, Matteo3champions said:

Now, what i want to say is: THANK YOU SI GAMES, thank you Miles, thank you SEGA and thank you developers, researches, testers and the others who i forget to mention, who works for passion as my passion is, everyday, for this WONDERFUL GAME. 

As i said in one of my previous post in this discussion, i preordered the game as i do from a lot of time, the day of the announcement. I won’t never ask a refund, because is my way to say THANKS for this 23 years. Now they NEED our support , our patience. I don’t want to be a hero, i don’t want to be special, i’m disappointed and angry as one of you, but now i think that we have to respect everyone who works or spent a lot of time to the creation of the best game in the world.

Great post!

Yes, SI have messed this up, but they now need our "help"

I normally never preorder the game, but in this difficult situation i am going to do just that! And i would urge everyone else that have enjoyed this great game over the years to do the same. 

[(sic)]

13 minutes ago, Chooxen said:

Diverting resources to convert to Unity is not good given what they're using it for. Their main priority seems to be to streamline the UI across all three platforms. This is obviously a decision undertaken for developer ease, not for the ease of players. Clicking through multiple screens of boxes to get to information that could be displayed in one list is not going to be fun.

It absolutely is good, and necessary for the game to move forward.

The game has looked and played the same for the past 20 or so years. The UI/UX has largely been the same, it just looked a bit different each year (sometimes it was the same).

Remember, the switch to Unity is not just for looks.

Also, how is it any different than what you have now? Are you saying you don't have to click through multiple screens in FM24 to get to information?

By the way, we don't even know if that will be the case in FM25 with new UI, because we haven't seen anything yet.

 

User Experience in FM currently is not great, bugged views, a ton of different screens, a lot of stuff that cannot be actually shown.

If you ever tried to get into making custom skins, you'd realize how messed up the whole UI is. A ton of stuff cannot be shown on certain screens (or you have to go through many hoops to get it to work, somewhat). Stuff can only be displayed in a certain way, etc. etc.

It was a mess, and it needed to be upgraded and modernized.

 

13 minutes ago, Chooxen said:

I would bet a lot of money that the UI will not be easily customisable and that perhaps won't even be moddable to make it anything like it currently is. I am predicting this to be the #1 source of frustration and player complaint on day one and I think it's one the playerbase is currently sleeping on.

That certainly is a valid concern. 

Whether it will be possible or not remains to be seen. But what I can tell you right now, based on what we know, is that customizing a skin will be a lot different than it is currently. 

The whole structure of a skin, with many xml files, using images, etc. is most probably going to change. So anyone who is making skins, will have to basically learn this again. 

If it is going to be possible, I think it has potential to be more easily customizable, but harder to learn to actually do so.

 

But again, it's just speculation, as we literally know nothing about it at this point.

13 minutes ago, Chooxen said:

There's also the issue of game feature removal. Why remove international football? It's already there, its players are already in the game. There's nothing fundamentally different about how it works in the game than how any other league works. Why remove player shouts? Yes, they're a bit predictable, but it's a piece of immersion that allows players to get out their frustrations watching a game in a way that might actually affect its outcome. At best, this suggests they want to make the game simpler, not more complex or immersive. At worst, they intend to sell these features back to us as DLC or battlepass content. That last bit is a little speculative, but in the current climate, it would hardly be surprising. More likely, they want to simplify the game, which is not something I ever hear people ask for.

Delaying this game to March isn't going to fix the above issues. All we'll get is a less broken version of a game that is considerably worse than FM24. The reason has nothing to do with development skill or resources or time, and everything to do about development direction and how out of touch it is becoming with the playerbase.

 

Why remove international football? 

Probably because you cannot just port stuff over that easily from FM24 to new FM25 with a brand new Unity Engine.

They were obviously planning to not just port over International Management, but improve it, and make something new.

During that process, they probably realized that they will not be able to finish it in time, so that's why it was removed completely. Remember, you can't just port it over and call it a day, it also required a lot of work probably, which wasn't worth it in their eyes, and so they just removed it.

I wouldn't be surprised if they actually implement these features in FM25, since the game is actually delayed till March. Maybe they might just have enough time to do it. But we'll most probably on see it in FM26, where it will be done "properly" and it will be a meaningful upgrade over the current system (both for int. management, and shouts).

 

Selling these features as DLC or through a battlepass (????? how would that even work????) is not just baseless, but would mean death for this game. 

This is not just "a little speculative", it's downright insane.

Edited Saturday at 13:42 by (sic)

[SkyNoudyo]

1 hour ago, Nickg07 said:

 

Definitely but maybe implementing 2 projects at the same time added to the chaos.

 

Could they not have completed the Unity migration and then added in womens football next year once everything was stable?

My idea is they worked out an entire concept of the game and wanted to work it out from the start. And given they’ve been working on this sort of game for I think four years now, women’s football does not appear to be something they can just chug away to save time. 
 

How they should have worked on it from the start is of course now impossible to know. 

[FM'd-BRO]

7 minutes ago, Robbie Hood said:

Great post!

Yes, SI have messed this up, but they now need our "help"

I normally never preorder the game, but in this difficult situation i am going to do just that! And i would urge everyone else that have enjoyed this great game over the years to do the same.

SI are no longer small time indie developers they have enough backing from mega powerhouse SEGA. 

I've supported SI since the CM days and will continue but to say they need our help financially is wild. 

[rdbayly]

On 10/10/2024 at 23:02, Mobius said:

The article about the FM25 roadmap now redirects to the announcement of FM25 being delayed.

Where we're going, we don't need roads.

[jmlima]

5 hours ago, akkm said:

...

So can people stop saying resource allocation isn't affected by including women's football...its misleading people to say its not. ...
 

Of course every single feature added affects resource allocation. So what? The issue here is that some people are clearly on their own personal crusade by the inclusion of women's football. It serves their own purposes. It would be far harder for them, but please let them come forward and do it, to blame the entire debacle on what seems to be a half-arsed (middleware? really?) transition to unity for the sole purpose of making multi-platform easier to develop. And, in that one, the vast majority of the resources went. Anywhoo, I agree with someone up the thread, this one as run its course. Mods, please consider closing this down.

Will add one further last minute thought, that I would humbly recommend SI to pay some attention to. Judging by this thread, if 25 proves to be a flop, you can see what's going to be taking the brunt of the blame, and what the pitchforks will be aimed at.

[akkm]

1 hour ago, jmlima said:

Of course every single feature added affects resource allocation. So what? The issue here is that some people are clearly on their own personal crusade by the inclusion of women's football. It serves their own purposes. It would be far harder for them, but please let them come forward and do it, to blame the entire debacle on what seems to be a half-arsed (middleware? really?) transition to unity for the sole purpose of making multi-platform easier to develop. And, in that one, the vast majority of the resources went. Anywhoo, I agree with someone up the thread, this one as run its course. Mods, please consider closing this down.

Will add one further last minute thought, that I would humbly recommend SI to pay some attention to. Judging by this thread, if 25 proves to be a flop, you can see what's going to be taking the brunt of the blame, and what the pitchforks will be aimed at.

Well actually the issue is people unable to have a nuanced conversation about it without going "its all women's footballs fault" or "everyone who doesn't like womens football is a misogynist"

Neither take is correct

 

On the so what bit re every single feature added affects resource allocation lolll...I don't think every single feature added costs millions to add therefore attempting to undermine the significance of something that millions gets spent on and trying to underplay it comparing it to 'every single feature added' is...I don't want to say a tad disingenuous...more its simply just not a good comparison 🙂

Plus I was just pointing it out as some were misleading saying adding women's football isn't affecting resource allocation...which clearly isn't the case

Edited Saturday at 16:36 by akkm

[Chooxen]

1 hour ago, (sic) said:

It absolutely is good, and necessary for the game to move forward.

The game has looked and played the same for the past 20 or so years. The UI/UX has largely been the same, it just looked a bit different each year (sometimes it was the same).

Remember, the switch to Unity is not just for looks.

Also, how is it any different than what you have now? Are you saying you don't have to click through multiple screens in FM24 to get to information?

By the way, we don't even know if that will be the case in FM25 with new UI, because we haven't seen anything yet..

 

Why remove international football? 

Probably because you cannot just port stuff over that easily from FM24 to new FM25 with a brand new Unity Engine.

They were obviously planning to not just port over International Management, but improve it, and make something new.

During that process, they probably realized that they will not be able to finish it in time, so that's why it was removed completely. Remember, you can't just port it over and call it a day, it also required a lot of work probably, which wasn't worth it in their eyes, and so they just removed it.

The reason the UI has been the same for years is because it works. FM24 is a spreadsheet game because spreadsheets are the most logical way to access databases of information.

Yes, you need to click and scroll now. Not HALF as much as you will once all the salient information is communicated through massive boxes across far more menus than we currently have.

I know what it'll be like because I've played FM Mobile and Touch and I've seen the screenshots they've released of the new UI. Unless that is substantially customisable and moddable, the game will involve more scrolling through menu after menu to get to see the information you can now see at a glance. Changing the UI from lists to boxes is a thoroughly bad idea.

 

As for international football, you can't convince me it in its current form would take a long time to implement. It works exactly the same as any other league. It's a very basic system.

It would be good if they intended to radically overhaul it, but a) they've not announced they're doing that, and b) you could still implement the basic system we have in the meantime.

They effectively said they already had implemented a system but it wasn't up to standard. Well, what does that mean? Player interactions are literally broken but I bet they'll make a return largely unchanged. The reasoning doesn't add up.

1 hour ago, (sic) said:

Selling these features as DLC or through a battlepass (????? how would that even work????) is not just baseless, but would mean death for this game. 

This is not just "a little speculative", it's downright insane.

It would work as it does for any other game, what do you mean? You don't think SI can work out how to paywall a feature?

I agree it would be an insanely bad move for the game. So is presenting a database of information in boxes. They're not making sensible decisions, they're making decisions that reflect their interests as developers rather than those of players. I think it's more likely they want to simplify the game. But I still wouldn't be surprised if they started introducing features as DLCs. There has to be a reason they're removing features and it's one or the other. 

[basqueliverpool]

Does anyone care if men and women move differently btw or if the game play is different?

Personal opinion is that si have misunderstood the fanbase. The vast majority want an updated game thats more realistic each year in terms of management

More range of realistic interaction with manager and players, better scouting, better transfer situation and better ai management. 

The genius of football manager is that every save is different, no need to over complicate that in development 

 

[forameuss]

7 hours ago, HighFlyingDwarf said:

You're conducting some interesting mental gymnastics to excuse the fact that they missed an issue that would have caused the game to be delayed until March, when they originally announced a November release date, and then had the gall to ask people for their money.

Pretty clear to anybody who's looking at this within context that the preorder numbers and general uproar caused this, not any one particular bug. Did SI even cite that in their announcement? No they didn't.

Care to show any evidence that they specifically "missed" an issue? And you talk about me projecting? I'm speaking from experience of working in development teams where this has happened for multitudes of reasons, a good number of which have been outwith the control of the team itself. Where's yours coming from?

[spursfan]

4 hours ago, Matteo3champions said:

Now, what i want to say is: THANK YOU SI GAMES, thank you Miles, thank you SEGA and thank you developers, researches, testers and the others who i forget to mention, who works for passion as my passion is, everyday, for this WONDERFUL GAME. 

Respect remains key in any relationship -- 30 years is not transactional imo.

3 hours ago, jcafcwbb said:

Surely they would just update the database used in FM24 on the FM24 engine with the transfers in the August 2024 transfer window and add another database to the FM24 game.

They've stopped work on FM24 long time ago -- anyway seems some FM25 database is already up and running somewhere.

3 hours ago, Chooxen said:

More likely, they want to simplify the game, which is not something I ever hear people ask for.

Mainly as we're on the hardcore spectrum of the market rather than newbies -- just check out the How Do I threads to figure the complexity of the UI (and how it sometimes stumps regular users (who don't use certain features out of habit)

3 hours ago, (sic) said:

I read it as, they simply had to rush to meet the deadline, and they realized that even if they do rush it, the game will be nowhere near ready. Hence the delay.

Yes that would me my reading of the situation as well.

[spursfan]

6 minutes ago, basqueliverpool said:

Does anyone care if men and women move differently btw or if the game play is different?

Yes I would care about it, else why bother? EA has already done this, and it's 'excellent', isn't it?

[SPE3D]

5 hours ago, Velja93 said:

Why are they not making football manager womens 25 as a separate game to see how many are really interested to pay and support womens football for real.Game doesnt need to cost 50 euros at beggining, make lower price to popularize the game.Start with 6,7 playable leagues, then upgrade by time.Thats the right way to build something.

Some guys really love misoginy word and they are opssesed with it.You are not helping anyone by constantly repeating.

Real problem is that football manager(sega) dissapoints users again and again, years after years, and people have had enough.

l understand anger, because sega doesnt care about people who build this game by supporting her for 20 years.

Fm is bad last few years, and they need to make something really solid to get back on track.

Maybe the womens football is excuse for making bad game last years.

Make great game, and nobody will have anything bad to say against womens football.

They needed to upgrade game to next level, and then work on womens football.

Problem is when you channel your anger towards womens football, not sports interactive.

fm 24- set piece manager.

fm 25-delayed by 5 monts.

 

 

 

 

 

Making the women's game as a separate game is never going to happen because it  would not get many sales. 

Whilst most of us will give the women's game a go. I think a very small percentage would be prepared to pay for a separate game.