Paul Barton
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Posts posted by Paul Barton
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3 hours ago, crusadertsar said:
You are playing a man who literally has no more legs in a role that requires bags of pace. And you are channeling all your attack through him. So why do you think there is no penetration? I have nothing against Ibra but he will never be a poacher again.
Poacher role doesn't really require legs unless I'm missing something?
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I've started a new save with Milan which has actually started fairly well. I've been fiddling around with a few different different variants of the 4231 and i'm currently rocking the below. Whilst i'm winning games and have had a solid start to the season, i'm not really controlling games like i feel i probably should be. I've not been scoring many goals. Most of my wins have been 1-0 which isn't a bad thing of course, but i feel this side is capable of more.
Looking to build from the back and generally looking to play a game that's controlled by keeping the ball - which we have been doing, but just need more penetration. Trying to get balls into the box from the wide right to the Forward, IF, BBM & AP (i've tried this role as a SS as well). RB underlapping to try and provide additional support for the DLP & Winger. I've varied the Role of Ibra - but decided that i wanted him to be more central rather than moving into the flanks.
Appreciate any thoughts or tweaks!
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7 hours ago, Guv'nor said:
^Wingbacks pushed up to Defensive Wingers/Wide Midfielders, defensive mentality the midfield, CM and a BWM perhaps. Could double up the SS or leave it status. Once upon a time, the 3-5-2, was often played 3-2-3-2, with greater licence for adventure afforded the wingers in the knowledge the MCs contributed to the defensive resolve. Ngolo Kante's depth vs Atletico was very interesting yesterday, far deeper than the wingbacks in much of the first half.
Is 2 defensive CM's a little too defensive? 5 defensive players with just one on support?
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I've had to make a few changes as it still just doesn't seem to be right. I'm not creating enough chances despite being fairly solid at the back. I'm currently trying to play two behind Immobile again to get my best players into the side really. Trying to feed through balls into Immobile and the SS. I think the side is setup with balance - although happy to take opinions as is the case. Trying to keep things simple with the TI's and looking to play a patient passing game as this seems to be what works for me when i play this game! I've actually started the season fairly well with 4 wins and 2 draws - but just not really playing well in any game.
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On 16/03/2021 at 15:50, smplfc123 said:
Afternoon all,
This is going to be FM21's version of this thread:The whole point of this thread is for myself and for others to understand how it's possible to to develop your style of play from a pragmatic approach to a more offensive approach. I'm a naturally pragmatic manager, who prefers solid defending first and foremost and I wanted a club that would start off with a similar feel.
With that in mind, the club I've chosen is Crystal Palace. Now Palace fans won't be happy with me saying this. but I'm looking at a team like Brighton as an example of what I'm trying to achieve here. The contrast in styles between previous manager Chris Hughton and current manager Graham Potter, are clear to see. Under Hughton it was about being hard to beat, yet under Potter they offer much more of an attacking threat whilst being brave on the ball (although their finishing is what's stopping them from moving out of a relegation fight).
Crystal Palace have a mixed squad. A lot of players in the squad are suited to Hodgson's pragmatic set up, but there are sparks of brilliance in the form of Zaha and Eze. With a lot of players due to be out of contract next summer, there's a good opportunity to change the playing style of this club.
Unlike last year's thread, my aim isn't to move from pragmatic approach to possession-focussed one. This year it's to move from a pragmatic approach to a more attacking/pressing one, but to develop better attacks, we are still going to need to be a team that's a lot more comfortable on the ball. Even when we are set up against the bigger teams, or away from home, I'm looking for us to be positive in our counter attacks and that's what I'm going to base my main tactic on with the set of players we have.
As you can see I'm really not one for overloading the TI's, it's really not my style. I'll potentially add a couple more in if I see any obvious problems. The 'play out of defence' is my starting point to make the players more comfortable on the ball and I will hammer the technical side of it in our training sessions. To me, Playing out of defence doesn't have to mean you're looking for possession overkill. It's a way of enticing your opponents in and then being able to be direct with passes in the 2nd phase and receive balls in between the lines.
Again having been a pragmatic manager for so long, I'm quite comfortable in tweaking the above to ensure we're solid, but my biggest worry is how to progress this in to making us more of an entertaining/attacking outfit?
This was my first thought:
My main worry/concerns are how to adapt the 3 man midfield roles. Here I've tried to keep it basic. The CM(A) becomes the AM, the BWM becomes more of a controlling holding player in the CM(D) and the CM(S) is there because I really don't know what else to do with that role?
Pressing wise, I've gone for a HDL, and would then employ a split press in which my 4 attackers will all be asked to press higher. I don't want my Defensive Line or whole team in general pushing too high as I feel I'm just leaving myself open to long balls 24/7. The CM(D) is to help recycle possession and the LB has been changed to a WB as I feel that's more possession-friendly, as I plan to see more of the ball.
I fully appreciate that I may not have players in certain positions yet to help fully achieve my goals in terms of my progressive tactic.
Again I'm looking to be more aggressive, but this is a slow burner, I don't want to jump from my pragmatic style to a steam workshop tactic with 50 TI's all based on ridiculously aggressive pressing. No offence intended to those that download tactics, it's just not my style. I want this to be a realistic save in which there will be some struggle to change the club's mentality over the last few years.
Thanks for reading, I will post updates on my tactical (struggles) and if anyone has any tips on my progressive tactic, I'm all ears!I look forward to reading and hopefully taking a few ideas for my own saves 👍
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So, i started again this evening. Have started with 2 wins from 2 - looking much more of a threat going forward having started with the "fluid counter attack" pre-set but took a few TI's out & amended some player roles. I'm not convinced that this is entirely balanced. Lucas has been playing in the centre - although wondering if it maybe best to move him out wide to compensate for Lazzari moving forward more.
One thing i have noticed it getting caught 2 v 1 in the wide areas which has resulted in a lot of conceded chances. I've tried to defend wider. I can of course still go up one notch - but any suggestions on how to combat this and any other opinions on how this is currently looking?
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27 minutes ago, Crazy_Ivan said:
I am very uncompromising tbh so I stick to my system and mould players around it rather making a system to suit the players or indeed sell players and buy players that suit my system better.
For instance in my current save I am stuck with Milik as a loan with obligation and there is too much invested in him. He doesn't suit a F9 in my system but he has good mentals and his height, heading ability(meaning he wins when isolated against fullbacks) and pace are excellent so I convert him to play as a an IF but then there is an issue that he turns the ball over a lot because he has poor dribbling and passing ability, one I can tone down in his individual instructions, one I can offset a bit by teaching him the PPM "runs with the ball rarely" which then produces a player like this.
A player that doesn't dribble nearly as much as the better equipped wide players, is far more selective with his shots and basically keeps the passing simple and recycles rather than forces. Essentially through these different instructions on different players I have made my players work the ball in to the box themselves.
If I was playing as Lazio Milenkovic would be a F9 and so and and so on but this brings up another problem with that Lazio squad. I have never seen a squad with so many PPMs on so many players. More than one player has 5 PPMs too which is quite amazing so that adds another layer, so personally all things considered I think you are really on the right track with what you laid out in your post at the top of the page now take the advice given and start off simple and analyse it from there.
Will give it a go later and play simple. I think it'll take time for me to be able to dissect what's actually happening in games more but we shall see how it goes this time round.
SMS as a false 9? Alongside Immobile?
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23 minutes ago, Crazy_Ivan said:
So a defender hoofing it when you very clearly don't want him to could be two things, Tactical or the actual player themselves. When my scouts first came back with Luiz Felipe I was salivating until I got to to his concentration which is poor especially if you are considering a high press/high line. His low composure and decisions however also mean that there is a chance than any sort of decent press on him will see him hoof it away, Hoedt is the same as well albeit his vision and passing are better but Hoedts anticipation is also quite low which doesn't help with a high line. That's not to say a high line can't work with them but it's certainly something to consider if you are seeing issues there.
When I messed around with a Lazio save yesterday it was palpable that a few of the defenders had low concentration which means they could be fine for 89 minutes but just once completely switch off and someone will be behind them in an instant which is exactly what I discovered by analysing the first two games without looking at attributes. The issue is someone like Acerbi has all the right mental attributes but his acceleration and agility mean if someone gets behind they are pretty much gone.
These are also the things you need to also watch out for and why you need to analyse your tactics not just where the goals are coming from but where your turnovers are coming from and why it's happening and what you can do to minimise these issues. The biggest part for me in the learning process was the analysis part, it was like a lightbulb suddenly came on and I realised yeah, now I can see my IF with poor dribbling and mental attributes is turning the ball over in key areas and I am leaving my entire midfield open and defenders exposed to be picked apart. Previously it was always the defenders fault in my eyes because I was looking at certain moments in isolation as opposed to the bigger picture.
If you were to continue with that Lazio save, what formation and TIs would you play and why?
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2 hours ago, HUNT3R said:
This wouldn't affect your defenders at all. It reduces long shot and crossing tendencies.
The advice I always give is to start with either no TIs or at least, very few TIs. That way, you see the 'vanilla' tactic as it is. It makes it easier to rectify issues that you see and nothing then stops you to add TIs to build/tweak your tactic until you're satisfied.
It must just be a coincidence then? As my defenders were aimlessly hoofing it but then I switched to WBIB and it seemed to lead to them taking their time and trying to pass the ball?
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8 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:
Why specifally the WBiB of all instructions?
Anyway, the first thing you need to understand is that the setup of roles and duties is key. Instructions matter, but are of secondary importance compared to roles and duties. Also, instructions are effective only if they are consistent both with roles and duties and one another. Otherwise, they mean little (if anything).
Last but not least: tactical elements - roles, duties and instruction (including the mentality) - work exclusively in conjunction, so you should never view them in isolation.
Can you expand on your last paragraph please?
With regards to WBIB, it was more based around not watching my defenders hoof aimlessly when options were available. That with shorter passing seems a good starting block.
Would you suggest starting with a clean slate or a preset of somekind then trying to tweak slightly?
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12 hours ago, pheelf said:
Talking from personal experience, I've run a simple 4-4-2 with minimal instructions for years and only really make in-game tactical changes when I identify issues.
The key is understanding the formation you are using and knowing what its strengths and weaknesses are. Maximize the strengths and attempt to mitigate the weaknesses.
The best piece of advice I can offer is to WATCH your matches in detail and ANALYZE what you are seeing.
If you are struggling with that perhaps posting some .ppms of the matches where your team lost on here can help.
Ultimately, you need to have a plan of how you want to see the team perform and start building from there.
Saying you want to create a possession based tactic is too vague in my view and it doesn't help others to help you because everybody has a wide range of differing opinions of how they would create such a tactic.
You need to be asking yourself and answering questions such as:
Who do you expect to be your main goalscorer?
How are you going to create goal scoring opportunities for them?
Who creates space when your team attacks and who do you expect to exploit that space?
How are you going to defend? Are you going to attempt to press or hold shape?
When are you going to attempt to win the ball back?
Do you have players that are capable of playing the way you want?
How are you going to treat transitions?
Once you can answer those questions you will have clear idea of what you are looking to build and also a firm foundation for how to build it.
Finally, tactics aren't the totality of the things you need to consider when trying to get your team to perform. For e.g. looking at your bench, your players are in appalling condition in terms of fitness which indicates to me that you aren't rotating enough and you aren't making your squad players available for the reserves. Bench players need to be fit and raring to go much like your first choice players as you could be depending on them to come off the bench at any time and have an impact. How are they supposed to do that when the majority aren't even close to being match fit?
All the best
So to try and answer your questions, if I'm honest, I hadn't really thought about it all that much. I had hoped to pick a formation and then work out what player instructions can fit within that but without really having much throught with what I actually wanted to do. I ended up getting sacked after a dreadful run. I'm putting it down to the learning process, however. I think I've learned a few things even just playing tonight. I'm determined to play the game my way in terms of learning to build tactics myself rather than download one as there's zero fun in that.
Tomorrow I intend to start a new save with Lazio again and try and put what I learnt from this save into the new one.
So to set out a plan and answer some of these questions:
I'd like to stick with a 5221 formation. Think this suits the players I have.
My main goalscorer will be Immobile. Although I'd also like SMS running from deep and getting into the box. Thinking AF and AMC att. Will stick with Alberto as APM on sup.
I'd like to see through balls played for Immobile and with the wing backs providing crosses to assist & hopefully see SMS arriving in the box to support. I was getting some success with that last time. It seems to make sense to me.
I'd like to play a pressing system. Lazio have the players to do that. With regards to transitions, I really don't know exactly how I'd like this to work out but thinking about how I'd like to play, I think winning the ball back high up the pitch could make sense?
I do usually rotate a decent amount. The problem I had was the that there was a big drop off in quality with the backup players and when you're constantly losing the last thing you want to do is weaken your side. But I'll try and be a little more aware of that this time!
One thing that I have learnt tonight is that 'work ball into box' doesn't just relate to when you're in and around the box. My defenders just kept hoofing the ball clear despite having a pass around them and being on play out from back. As soon as I did this, they start to actual try keep the ball.
Another thing I was noticing was that my full backs were allowing a fair amount of crosses into the box. What's the best way to combat that? Defend wider and perhaps get them tackle harder?
I'll start again tomorrow with a 'clean slate' and only work ball into box selected and go from there.
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Just now, Crazy_Ivan said:
I think I am going to bow out of this one. I had some analyses ready but I think you're just getting a lot of information chucked at you and me adding to that will not really help you.
It's interesting to see how do many people have different opinions of what may or may not work with this system!
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1 hour ago, Crazy_Ivan said:
Personally if that was my system I would want both those Wingbacks as complete wingbacks on attack. They are dynamic they will provide a whole new dimension to the tactic in attack sometimes going as far to provide an extra body in the box when the chance presents itself. Then I want to get both those guys wide open in as much space as possible and I want our men in the middle to find them in that space. I would want Milenkovic to be a creative force as well as an attacking presence in the box so I am going to carefully prepare a role for him that allows him to provide both The two CM's are going to be my mop up men on the wings providing cover out wide if the WBs are high and we turn the ball over but I would also want them providing a presence around the edge of the box and sometimes even get in to the box.
If you give me a bit I will show you exactly what my vision would be in the set up you have outlined there.
Thinking I may try something similar. By WBs on attack with the two CM's on duties to perhaps cover. Maybe a CAR and a DLP Def or CM Def?
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39 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:
As a whole that looks good to me but, is Luis Alberto a DLP(D)? I really didn't think defending is one of his strong points & was more suited to AMLRC strata ie get him forward so he's not having to defend the middle of the pitch. I did a season with Lazio & wouldn't dare put Alberto or SMS in a CM slot
Your two guys in CM are going to need to be rock solid when you have no DM.
Agree regarding Alberto. He hasn't been playing there. I had Darder who I signed who is more defensive minded. He has played there a few times but on a support mentality with a CM on defence.
I was actually playing SMS and Alberto just behind a striker with two others sitting behind them. SMS was a AMC attack duty and Alberto was a AP on support. I was trying to get them both in the side as they're my best players but it just wasn't working
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5 hours ago, Gold said:
Your front 3 look a good combination. In midfield if the dlp is your holder which he usually is in a sitting role, cm might be a bit meh. I might have more legs like a bbm, or maybe a mez to support the wb.
Also your wb are your main source of width. But altho you want certain balance, perhaps have youre right wb who is covered on the right cm by the dlp attack, and link with the supporting dlf. The 3cb allow you to play wb, so its best to maximize them while also having different options. Also in a short passing game its best to also have different options interlinking with different roles.
Thats what i think of your players roles.
The team instructions at first it is best to keep it simple especially in the lower leagues where it easier to start.
Also every role and tactical instruction, player and team has a highlight hover message which gives a brief instruction of what it does.
Everything you've suggested is ptetty much how I've played for the most part. The RWB was on ATT and the other CM was on BBM.
I'm not sure if it's now something to do with the TIs or maybe even team Morale?
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I've tried to dull things right down - but things just haven't improved at all. In fact, they've got worse! I'm 10th & on the verge of the sack. I changed things up a little and tried to get a few more men forward to score more goals, it worked, but that then also resulted in defence opening up which was previously solid.
I've tried almost everything and nothing works...
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2 hours ago, herne79 said:
I know and it can be a common misconception - us players can tend to think "I have to tell my player(s) to do something" when actually our players might be perfectly capable of doing what we want anyway without telling them to do it. When this happens the end result can be overkill and (at worst) leave your team terribly exposed to counter attacks because your players are too often caught out of position. In this example, your RWB already has an attack duty and (possibly) a Trait to get forward often which is more than sufficient to get him forward a lot. So if you then add an instruction to make him even more forward minded you must see that it is needed, not just think (or assume) it is needed. And the best way of seeing if something is needed or not is to not give him the instruction in the first place - ie., start small and build if needed.
How? What are you going to remove and why? This is my point - starting as you have with so many instructions it becomes very hard to decide what you should change. And we're getting way beyond the scope of casual play here too.
If you want to play as a casual FM player using the full version of the game you absolutely can do it. Set your assistant to manage things such as press conferences and general training so pretty much the only thing you get involved in is individual training for each of your players. And even that you can just set up once and then just check player progress every 6 months or so. As for tactics, start with the default set tactics. Pick one style and formation you like the look of and feel your players are suited to. Make little adjustments (if needed). Which frees you up to concentrate on playing matches and making transfers.
If you really want to get into all the whys and wherefores of tactical analysis and development then go for it. There are plenty of guides and advice out there. But that's not casual play.
I want to learn to develop and get involved with my tactic. By casual play - i guess i mean, i don't put in many hours. My initial point was more based around the fact that i don't put in 100's of hours a week which makes me more of a casual player. I want to learn how to piece together tactics, but the game is very complex so makes it difficult!
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11 minutes ago, herne79 said:
imo you have a case of not being able to see the wood for the trees. Because you are using so many instructions when (by your own admission) you don't have a good grasp on what they all do, it'll be almost impossible to identify where it's going wrong.
It is much easier to start with few (or no) instructions and add gradually to refine your style of play or address specific issues than it is to start with loads. If you start small and add something it tends to be easier to see if what you add works or not.
Your players are quite capable of playing matches with minimal input from you due to their roles, duties, Traits and attributes. Add instructions gradually to help define your desired style of play and/or to address specific issues you may notice after you've seen how your players play.
I think you've fallen into the classic FM trap (which, trust me, we have all done) of getting all the toys out of the box and trying to play with them all at once. I'll give you a few simple examples from your set up above:
1) You want to "Focus play down the left", yet your playmaker and attacking wingback are on the right.
2) What have you noticed about your attacking wingback on the right that makes you think you need to tell him to overlap?
3) What does the overlap instruction actually do, because it has nothing to do with making wingbacks overlap midfielders or strikers? (It makes your wingback slightly more attack minded. That's all. You really want that if he already has an attack duty and, probably, the Trait to get forward often?)
So I think that posting pictures of your tactic (14 TIs btw is total overkill) and getting people's comments on it is missing the bigger picture of your intended "casual" play. You clearly want to build your own tactic (good), so start small and build. Don't start big and subtract
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Thanks. I'll start to dull it all down abit. I wanted my RWB to get forward more and be on the end of crosses from the left which is why I set him up to overlap.
In terms of actual player roles, do you think they seem OK? It seems like there is an imbalance in the middle perhaps? I had switched my DLP to a CM on defence duty. I'm also thinking that the MEZ instructions on SMS are abit of a waste for my best player
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16 minutes ago, zabyl said:
When there is no DM;
- Using a MEZ with 2 CM tactics is a high risk.
- Using a player/role on CM which has roaming PI or similar player trait is a high risk.
Shorter passing+lower tempo+play out of defence are possession based TIs. But wide attacking width is not.
If you want an overload to free up an opposite side player; using playmaker with overloading side of the pitch is a better way to do this. They are not only ball magnets withal opposite player magnets.
What can be changed for me?
- DLPs on RCM
- Your star player Milinkovic-Savic CMs on LCM.
- WBs/CWBs on RWB
- AMs/a on AMC
- APs on LW
- Attacking width to standard (your 2 wingbacks provide enough width)
- Overlap right (to push RWB more to take advantage of opposite flank overloads)
A very good example here. Uses both wide & central areas. I would change DLPd to DLPs to make him more involved in both sides of the play, (attack & defence) if I used this.
Thanks. I had made a few of those tweaks already (see latest screenshot). I'll change a few other bits suggested and see how I get on
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Conclusion - it's still just not working. I'm not creating anywhere near enough chances & have drawn games 0-0 or lost a few close games whilst winning a few closer games without really creating enough chances. Below is what i'm now playing with the idea to overload the left hand side and then cross for Immobile / Alberto or Lazzari arriving late. It looks like the Central 2 just aren't setup correctly. I'm assuming they're too far apart from each other to play a short passing game. Where is it going wrong?
I just don't know anymore....
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6 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:
I agree that FM is not an easy game to master and does require a considerable degree of tactical knowledge and understanding (among other things), but that's exactly the reason I love it so much.
However, once you understand key principles and start thinking logically about tactics, it becomes pretty easy to play.
I really do hope that this is the case for me. I've just finished reading he pairs and combinations guide which certainly helps to put things into a clearer light. I had a rough idea of what i was doing, but this will hopefully giv me that extra nudge to be able to piece things together.
Going to play a few games with Lazio now - fingers crossed i can implement what i've learnt!
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1 hour ago, herne79 said:
I feel a little contradicted here.
The thread title wonders whether FM is a game for casual players, yet I'd suggest the poster isn't really playing as a casual player. Playing full fat FM, creating and analysing your own tactical system, reading lots of guides and watching all manner of YT videos seems pretty involved for casual play?
Have you tried FM Touch instead? It's much more stream lined and designed more along the lines of pick up and play. You could also try (at least as your starting point) the pre built tactics which come with FM and (I believe) FM Touch. Some are better than others but most, with the odd tweak here or there if needed, can help you get into the game pretty quickly and can help relieve the immediate pressure of trying to come up with something workable when you don't really understand what's going on.
It sounds to me like you're trying to run before you can walk, creating unnecessary pressure on yourself and so spoiling your enjoyment.
You've probably hit the nail on the head truth be told. I would say I am casual player. I play probably 8 hours a week in total. But do watch others on twitch and also YouTube videos during lunch breaks etc.
Frankly I'm putting pressure on myself to win titles instantly and that just doesn't work in most cases.
I'll stick it out and hopefully turn this around! Playing touch version isn't an option. That was just too easy!
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Thanks guys. I'll give things another go later on and see how things go with what I posted above & I'll report back how it goes. I think I have a rough idea of what each player instructions do, but trying to knit them together maybe an issue. I'm halfway through reading the pairs and combinations thread so hopefully that'll help.
I think for myself it's about being patient. Perhaps I tinker a little too much which doesn't help.
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Thanks for the advice guys! I had amended a couple of things just after i posted this & played a further game which was a 2-2 draw against Crotone - although it was a much better performance. I've just tweaked a couple of bits based on what you've said. I do think that perhaps i get ahead of myself sometimes and think that i can win the league first season with teams/squads that perhaps aren't yet ready. I got destroyed by Milan however which was what really frustrated me.
I've screenshotted my latest variation. Thoughts were to create an overload on the left hand side - which ties in nicely with what SixPointer suggested.
Question - do you change things when playing against better sides - especially away from home?
Will give this a run a little later - but any feedback will be welcomed?
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AC Milan advice..
in Tactics, Training & Strategies Discussion
Posted
I switched the two midfield roles as suggested, changed Ibra to a TM and removed tight marking and have certainly controlled the game far more. I do think that at times I am over complicating this game.
Can I ask, what was the thought process with picking those two roles? Also, what do you not like about playing work ball into the box? Is there a situation where this TI would be usefull?