Gah Rii
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Posts posted by Gah Rii
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On 07/10/2022 at 16:03, Raymond85 said:
@Gah Rii i am a big fan of your approach. Have you figured out some tweaks for when your team grows and teams start playing more defensive against you, leaving less space on counter?
I'm currently in 2041 in a save and managing Chelsea. Throughout the entire save I've been using variations of my original tactic.
This is the one I've landed on for Chelsea that pretty much guarantees results for a top team if you build the team properly. It's not that different than what I was originally using, but the small tweaks I made definitely made a difference for me.
I've won everything there is to win at Chelsea. When I joined them in 2031 they were a mid-table team with multiple 33+ year old players so I was able to rebuild them as I liked which helped.
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8 hours ago, cragswfc said:
i thought it was download section. you use am as home tactic? dm away
I use the DM tactic for away, and the AM as home. I've recently been trying the attacking midfielder on attack as a shadow striker instead. I'll see how it turns out over the course of a season before deciding if it's better.
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14 minutes ago, glengarry224 said:
That's impressive! Only 31 allowed in the EPL and four of those allowed in one game = 27 allowed in the other 37 games. One goal allowed in your last eight matches!
I wondered if as they learned your style, teams would start to counter-attack wider against you but it looks like your defense got stronger and stronger. I'm guessing that your WCBs were great at closing down the flanks (?)
What's your plan for next season? Will you use the extra money to buy depth? or upgrade your starters? or bring in some youth prospects? or facilities? I always feel the dilemna when I first get European football with a smaller club. I can play reserves and tank the cup matches so that I can concentrate on the league games, but each cup match won brings a lot of money.
The anchorman is key to not conceding goals.
The WCB on support specifically can be more aggressive when the opposition enters their zone of control, which would be a problem if there wasn't a covering CB behind both of them with the anchorman also there to cover positions where needed. What I see quite often when I watch this tactic in real time is that the WCB will have a higher start position than any other defensive role I've tried (apart from WCB-A but that role isn't suited for any style I'd play, needs too much specializing around it to work), so if there isn't someone covering behind them then you'll get absolutely destroyed by through balls. With the Anchorman + CB-C my team can play extremely aggressive as a unit closing down, specifically on the flanks as you said. The wingback isn't 1v1 or 1v2 anymore, because the WCB can move out to help and the anchorman will slide over into his position. My fear is that better teams will eventually exploit this with a wide switch of the ball, but we'll see
As for plans for next season; Delia Smith retired the moment we achieved champions league football and we got bought by a tycoon, which was funny. We are now owned by Vincent Kesler for better or worse has yet to be decided. He instantly declared he wants 1/4 finals in the champions league, final of the FA cup, final of the league cup, and finishing in the top 4. So, maybe I don't keep my job too long this season
He promised significant investment, so that's going to be helpful in one way but harmful in another. As ridiculous as it sounds there really isn't that many options I realistically see can upgrade on Benteke outside of Calvert-Lewin and maybe Lorenzo Lucca. Everton are asking for €328 million for Calvert-Lewin and Lorenzo Lucca won't get a work permit xD . So for now we're relying on a 31 year old Benteke to do an important role.
That's what always becomes a problem for me in these kinds of saves. I want to keep the idea of the team alive while also making the team improved enough to challenge for the league title, but I don't want to compromise on what I was originally trying to do.
Ideal scenario is I find youth players that long-term can improve over the current players I have while still keeping the original philosophy alive, and maybe improve some areas that need it urgently now (LCB, BBM, AMC being the main ones), all while making sure we don't regress in the league as a priority. I need to keep champions league football if I want to test how far this tactical style can actually go. If I drop out of the top 4 places then something's not right and needs to be fixed.
FA cup/league cup will get my attention if I manage to get deeper into them without too much focus, and the champions league depends on how bad of a group I get. I assume I'll get an awful one due to seeding.
I'll keep this updated if something interesting happens, and any changes I make to my strategy in the future. I'll definitely be doing more with the home version of the tactic because I'm not at all happy with it.
Thanks for reading it all, and I'm glad you enjoyed.
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3 hours ago, cragswfc said:
download link?
3 hours ago, carloshcorbalan said:I don't see a link to tactics ...
Therefore.
Are there individual instructions to the players .. ???Hi, there's no download link as I don't feel one is needed. All of the roles and instructions are specified within the post. I don't use any individual instructions on any roles. It's all left default.
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- Popular Post
Well the season is finished, and I've massively exceeded my own expectations. We finished 3rd!
It was an exceptionally weak season from the other top teams in the league which allowed us to get such a high position in the first place, namely looking at Chelsea, Tottenham and Man UFC (I don't know if I'm allowed to use their real name so I won't
), Manchester City also finishing under the 80 point mark, with very low goals scored across the board. We'll see how things go when all of the teams around me inevitably strengthen.
I absolutely achieved what I wanted with this tactic in terms of pragmatism and having a strong defence, conceding only 31 goals in 38 games with a defence that definitely isn't as strong as those around me, while still being capable of winning games and getting points where needed.
I added some much needed reinforcements in January which I believe allowed me to move further up the table than I would have originally been able to, namely signing Luis Romo and Ruben Loftus-Cheek.
The ugliest game on that schedule being the 4-5 loss to Chelsea, purely due to the amount of goals involved in the game going completely against my philosophy, but overall achieving multiple 1-0 games which is what I think the real life users of this style would appreciate.
This is another result that I'm very proud of. 3 shots on target, 44% possession and we manage to beat Manchester City 2-0 away from home. As you can see from the team-sheet there's no world class names on my team, purely ones that made sense to my tactical idea, which shows the importance of signing players that suit your philosophy.
Christian Benteke as my DLF - S having one of his best seasons in his entire career with 22 goals in 33 starts.
With Milot Rashica and Adam Idah sharing the burden of being my AF, Adam Idah sometimes slotting into the DLF - S when needed, and getting 38 goals between them.
My wingbacks both proving to be the creative force needed with 12 and 15 assists between them.
Whether or not this is the long-term strategy that I wanted, I have no idea. This could be an extremely lucky season that will fall to pieces with the added pressure of European football and a reputation increase which will change how the opposition handles me, or maybe I've found something that works perfectly with the players I bought. One season isn't enough to tell, in my opinion, so I'll proceed to do more testing myself over the course of FM22's lifespan and see what happens.
There can definitely be improvements made to it, namely the home tactic which didn't perform anywhere near the level of the away version. That could be related to the fact that I don't really have an AMC - A that suited the role perfectly which is why I bought Ruben Loftus-cheek, so I'll see what happens with it next season.
Worryingly my goalkeeper's XG - prevented is 11.82 which means things could have been much worse without him, but I think that's possibly due to allowing the opposition to shoot from range in meaningless low XG shots that slowly add up while never being threatening.
I don't know what the rules are in regards to posting outside links, but I'll leave a link to imgur where I'll post all the stats that I found relevant so as not to spam this thread overly much. If that's against the rules feel free to remove it
https://imgur.com/a/wKZdo2O
If anyone has any questions then ask, or wants to use any of the information/tactic provided here feel free, I don't mind.
I hope this proves helpful to anyone wishing to try and make a counter attacking style because it can definitely be successful, it just relies completely on the type of player you're using. This is not the finished article, and your mileage may vary when using it, but I definitely believe it can be successful, especially in leagues at a lower level than the premier league where the competition isn't as strong.
Overall I'm extremely happy with how my idea played out, and I can't wait to play more.
Thanks for reading all of this if you're still with me, and hopefully this tactic works out well for you too. Bye
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- Popular Post
Hi. I don't post here ever because I usually don't feel like I have things worth sharing that aren't already perfected by the community. However recently I got really interested in trying to create a counter attacking system that didn't just rely on very high defensive/engagement line with very attacking mentality like every single plug & play tactic in existence.
My dream football style is Jose Mourinho teams, Diego Simeone, Claudio Ranieri, Antonio Conte, all of these managers have their own distinct brand of how to play pragmatic counter attacking football and achieve success with it.
I've spent a LOT (many many many) hours trying to create a style of football that I love with FM22.
Here's what I wanted to achieve with this tactic:
◉ using 3 centre-backs and more specifically using the wide centre-back
◉ using 2 strikers to try and replicate the little/large style that used to be very popular
◉ defend in a mid-block
◉ ensuring that we build from the back to draw the opposition up the pitch
◉ create a style that works at both small teams and big ones, so that it can eventually win trophies without wholesale changes to the entire system
◉ concede the least amount of goals I possibly can
Here's the formation and roles I settled on after much testing by playing through seasons to see what worked:
I'll give my thoughts behind each role and their importance to my system before proceeding further.
Sweeper keeper - defend: on defend duty a sweeper keeper will move just outside his box to clear up through balls if needed, which is perfect since I defend with a high-line.I recommend getting the best shot stopper you possibly can here.
Wide centre-back - support: extremely important. I've tried both the attack and defence variants and neither offer what I'm looking for. The WCB - D seems to hit a lot of aimless balls due to their role attached PI "cross from deep" which didn't suit me at all. Wheres the WCB - S purely has "stay wider", and while it doesn't have "hold position" what happens in game is that if one ventures forwards, the other holds his possession and the anchor man drops into the empty part of the pitch so I still end up with 3 centre-backs essentially, while allowing overloads due to the WCB - S moving up the pitch.
Central defender - cover: I found that he'll cover any balls over the top with relative ease which was a problem in the initial stages of testing this tactic
Wingback - attack: extremely important. this is where all the attacking threat comes from, I want them creating problems on both flanks the moment I win possession to create space for other players in the middle
Anchorman - defend: I wanted a role that would guarantee the player stays deep in attacking phases and makes sure my defence isn't exposed, and this works perfectly. Ball winning midfield seems to leave his position too often and if he fails in winning the ball back then I end up with the opposition striker/AMC having a free run at my centrebacks.
Box-to-box - support: simple role, I just wanted a work-horse in midfield that would move between both boxes influencing play
Central midfielder - attack: important. A lot of the attacking threat comes from this player because of the DLF in front of him that's opening space. Without the CM's penetration counter attacks are not threatening.
Deep lying forward - support: extremely important. For this role I use a target-man kind of player. My favourite in FM22 being Christian Benteke (surprisingly), someone that's capable of dropping deep and holding the ball while the CM-A underlaps him and creates panic in the opposition back-line
Advanced forward - attack: this player needed pace + good finishing to ensure my counter-attacks paid off
After some thought I decided to make a home and away version of this tactic because I've found through my years of playing football manager that having a home/away helps considerably. This is the home version;
Similar concept to the one for away, I just move the anchor man to the CM - D, and the CM - A to the attacking midfield. Maybe not ideal, but I'll specialise the players a bit more in the future, for now I just wanted diversity.
Next I'll cover the actual tactical style I ended up using:
Starting at the top;
Positive mentality is the best mentality to use in the game, in my opinion. It offers a good base-line to build any tactic off and makes each of the roles in the game just aggressive enough without over-committing and leaving gaps.
Play out of defence because I want the opposition to push up to win the ball off me while we're passing it around the back and then open them up with 1-2 passes and shoot.
Roll it out/distribute to centre-backs kind of overlaps with play out of defence but without that I still found the keeper hoofing the ball at the opposition keeper randomly, which wasn't the style of football I wanted.
Counter should be obvious since that's what my entire style is meant to be
Regroup is very situational. For example I'm currently managing Norwich in the Premier league to test out the final style I came up with. If I'm against Man UFC, Liverpool, Man city, Leeds then I'll do Regroup. If I'm against Burnley, Crystal Palace, Watford or the like then I'll switch to counter-press. It depends on what I believe I can get from a game.
Higher defensive line because I wanted to defend in a mid-block. This allows me keep the opposition far enough away from my goal when I win the ball back while still allowing them far enough out from their own that there'll be space behind.
More often closing down. Anything less and I gave too much space and got dribbled past, anything more and one missed tackle resulted in them being through on goal
Use tighter marking perhaps one of the most important instructions in this style. I originally used just higher defensive line and more often and conceded so many stupid goals I thought my entire tactic was awful. Once I added this my players became much more aggressive when the opposition entered our zone of control and harried them off the ball.
Some things that didn't work for me;
pass into space just resulted in aimless balls to nowhere really often, so I left it up to the players to decide when to do it.
lower line of engagement/standard defensive line just gave the opposition WAY too much room to do what they wanted outside my box, which is a death sentence against teams like Manchester City.
Get stuck in seems to serve no purpose except to get yellow/red cards, although that might be related to me signing players with high aggression. Also if they miss the tackle then it's a problem because the player just walks past them essentially.
Offside trap I'm still not sure about. It makes sense to constrict space even more in the area I'm trying to close them down in, but I feel like the opposition break the offside trap very easily, so I'll avoid it for now.
So; onto the actual testing and development of the tactic in game.
I wanted to test this with a team that wasn't suited to it at all and was much weaker than the teams around them in a very strong league. This led me to Norwich City in the Premier league.
The style that got Norwich to the Premier League from the Championship in the first place was attacking and possession orientated, while my style was going to be the complete opposite. Perfect.
I've gotten 21 games through the season so far and I must say I'm very satisfied by the results. We're sitting in 5th with 41 points, and conceding very little goals in games against much stronger opposition, while still being a threat. Not bad considering the average level of most of the players Norwich have in FM22.
My favourite result of the season so far being this
where we absolutely dominated spurs despite having a whopping 33% possession!
In this you can see I didn't make any wholesale changes to the original norwich team, just signing some players that I believed were needed. Namely a goalkeeper in Dominik Livakovic, a central midfielder in Jaime Seoane and of course the wonderful Christian Benteke to fill the deep lying forward role. I of course made other signings, some of which can be seen on the bench, but in general they're rotation options and not starters.
Overall I'm extremely pleased that this style worked out so well. Whether or not it's capable of winning trophies like I originally hoped I can't tell yet, but I'll find out as I proceed further into the season.
This is not meant to be some kind of definitive guide on counter attacking (if you'd like one then give this a read, I got many tips from it;)
but rather something to give people inspiration and maybe some ideas of what's possible with this match engine. This tactic and my thoughts can absolutely be improved upon and anyone out there is welcome to do so, it's just what works for me.
Just some further info before I leave; I don't use any opposition instructions or player instructions, everything's left to default. I don't change anything in game except substitutions or to swap between formations if I feel one isn't working better, I don't change team instructions/mentality or anything.
If there's anything more people would like to know/stuff I'm missing then feel free to ask and I'll update as I can.
Happy counter attacking
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I'd not defend narrowly to start with because one of the main weaknesses with a 532 (in my opinion) is overlapping fullbacks/wingbacks crossing into your box when it's overloaded, resulting in goals. Defending narrower will just open it up for them to overlap more frequently.
Could also try changing the halfback to a defensive midfielder defend/support, and make the DLF a support instead of attack and move him to the left so he fills that gap on the left side where the cm (s) isn't moving up.
That could offer more passing options coming out after you win possession back, because at the moment you've the halfback essentially sitting on top of your BPD when you're out of possession, and then you win it back and it makes it difficult to get back out fast enough to influence the game and possession probably just recycles.
I'd just mess with player roles, the overall strategy looks fine to me.
Could go like:
DLF (s) AF (A)
BMW (s) Mez (s)
DM (s)
and leave your back line as it is.
Watch extended highlights in a match while changing roles around to see what links up, and try to see which players aren't offering much when the opposition attacks you
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2 hours ago, 13th Man said:
WB has hard coded dribble wide, even on support which I specifically would prefer not to have. I would like my wingbacks to either dribble wide or attack the middle depending on their teammate's movement and the what the opposition gives them. It's a small thing, but it does matter. The movement on and off the ball by the wide players when playing as a WM is much more what I want than how they move when played as a WB.
Looks a lot like my set up - though I swap a AM for the DM and have been keeping my wingers in the wingback strata. My AM is a monster and the secondary goal scoring threat or I might use this (3-1-4-2) as my 'defensive' formation - though again I prefer the WMs over the DWs most of the time. Anyway, my AF also is killing it - scoring 36 goals in Serie A in a season.
I have an AM version too but teams in Liga MX absolutely abuse me team when I play it so I stick with this instead for safety xD
I'll try WM over DW with AM instead. What do you use for WM? Auto/def/supp/attack? Any PI's? I'd love to try some new stuff
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4 hours ago, Delial said:
Awesome!
Why did you pick Defensive Wingers and how are they doing? They're dribbling too much IMHO.Well I wanted to get a 3 centreback formation to work and after testing for ages I didn't enjoy a single wingback role, and a flat back 5 is really ugly (imo).
The wingback (auto/def/supp/attk) just don't do enough for me, they either sit too deep and don't offer any pressure on the opposition defence, or they sit too high up to ever recover properly when I get counter-attacked.
The complete wingback just seemed to smash crosses from anywhere on the pitch repeatedly and recycle possession to a level I couldn't deal with.
So then my only real option was to move upwards into midfield positions to find the solution, and most of the options there are awful in terms of having 1 wide player control the entire flank vs usually 2 opposition players.
I read the descriptions of each role and tried to imagine what I'd like my players to actually do, and then watched full matches to see what happens.
Winger attack/support is the same as wingbacks in that they end up in no-mans-land and get caught out way too often.
Wide-midfielder didn't move enough to threaten the opposition so they'd end up getting overloaded and pushed out of the game if I was against for example a 4-2-3-1 because they'd be dealing with the 2 wingers + 2 fullbacks/wingbacks of the opposition.
So instead I decided to try the defensive winger to see what it'd do, and it works absolutely perfectly for what I imagined my team doing. They do dribble an awful lot but what I've also found is that they cut the ball back A LOT more than any other wide role rather than just smashing a cross to nowhere or shooting into the side netting.
This is an example of 2 full seasons of my right defensive wingers stats in the league. This is the position that seems to perform much better than the left defensive winger, no idea why, might be related to the DLF s being on his side pulling people out of position?
I
He doesn't look like an amazing winger, and that's because he isn't. He's just a good central midfielder for my league (too good since he wanted to leave apparently xD). I essentially play with 4 central midfielders + a defensive midfielder, and just make sure the left defensive winger is left footed and the right is right footed.
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54 minutes ago, JoOSTAR said:
Do you use any specific Player Instructions?
Left/right CB's to stay wider to make up for the defensive wingers going forward, DLP to dribble more because I don't want him just being totally stationary since there's a DM behind him already for cover and the DLF to shoot less because I want him to hold the ball for as long as possible for the on-rushing CM (a) instead of trying low % long shots
all just basic otherwise. The most important instructions for me are the CB's staying wider, or else it's super narrow and oppositions with 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 will absolutely destroy you with overlaps
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Funnily enough this is exactly what I've been using in FM for ages, works wonderfully for me
This is the actual formation
This is how the AF does in it
That's the DLF (s)
Other notable performers are the right defensive winger for some reason & the DLP
I could never use anything but this after discovering how effective it is
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2 hours ago, Chief232 said:
I'd be training him as a box to box mid personally as it'll keep training him to be well rounded, and also to work on some of his physical stats. I'd consider putting him on individual strength training as well.
great idea, didn't think of that. Box to box is perfect to balance out the rest of his stats.
I've moved him to the first team now to slowly introduce him, thanks very much for the advice
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I just got this player in my youth academy, he's already easily on the level of my other central midfielders if not better.
What I'm looking for is some tips on how to continue his development.
When should I integrate him into the first team? He's at that level now but I'm pretty sure he shouldn't be in the first team at 15 or it'll mess up his development?
How should I train him? Train him in a role or focus on specific attributes?
I use a defensive midfielder (this guy would be wasted there in my opinion), deep lying playmaker I'd prefer someone stronger/taller to hold their own, so that pretty much leaves the CM attack.
Any tips/advice on development and training for him?
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13 minutes ago, Mr_Demus said:
That might work.
I just did a little counting. From the last 16 goals I have conceded, 8 have been long shots. 4 of them have come from players with long shot abilty below 10.
Funnily enough, thay have all happened away from home
what formation is the opposition using in those games? from my experience 3 at the back systems struggle against 4-2-3-1
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22 minutes ago, Mr_Demus said:
How do I avoid getting ounished by long shots?
I could push up my d-line, but I would really like to avoid that.
Players with 8 or 9 long shots are drilling them into the top corner, because we allow them the space. Could I ask my DM to hold position?
you need to close down the shooters so they don't have space to shoot, holding position will just give them more time.
defensive line moving up is the obvious but if you don't want to do that you could try changing the DM to a ball winning midfielder? It honestly depends on where the long shots are coming from and why they are.
If it's too much space then try ball winning midfielder in DM slot, but that might open up space behind him for them to play through which could create more issues.
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Sounds good to me. The only real issue with 2 mezzalas on attack is 2 people with the PI "take more risks" but if you're already using an AP in that space then you'll already have that applying so you'll be used to it
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This also worked really well for me with Fulham if you don't like the defensive wingers I use with other teams.
My left/right cb's have the PI's to stay wider, DM to hold position, DLP to dribble more. Other than that it's pretty basic.
Got me some good results without needing too much chopping and changing through the season.
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2 hours ago, Mr_Demus said:
So, like this? No other TI's?
I changed the AF to a PF A and put the TM on A, but obviously he can switch to S.
I was able to ask the two CM's to press more.
How about the AMC one?
that looks good imo apart from a target man, that's a really specific role, PF S can do the same as him without messing up the overall formation. Target men always make my team go way too direct to him, he's a ball magnet, so he needs to be really good at his role to use the amount of ball he receives.
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Just now, Mr_Demus said:
Yeah, I do all those
try out defensive wingers in place of wingbacks
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I personally found wingbacks to be awful in a 532/352
I go with defensive wingers instead, they perform much better and you can still use your wingback players in that position instead. Just my 2 cents.
I don't recommend all the instructions I've given my team but you're free to try them if you want, it works for me.
The team roles however 100% work better with defensive wingers than wingbacks ever did.
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3 minutes ago, JordanMillward_1 said:
Not for me - Reus got 6 man of the match's for me since full release at AM(C) and got the award for fan favourite because of it.
What role are you playing him in? Just curious, if you don't mind me asking.
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Just now, OlivierL said:
So timeline is not coming back? Any words about the nicknaming bug ? i reported it twice.
They said a few times already that the timeline isn't coming back for sure. Guess they might change their mind in the future, but doesn't seem likely. No idea about the bug, if it's been reported then I'd assume they're aware of it and will fix it when the other priority stuff is dealt with.
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10 minutes ago, ottey_swe said:
Is it only me or are the player rating stars a bit grainy/lowres on retina displays?
looks awful to me in that screenshot alright, the edges of the stars are super blurry
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I'm Chelsea in this image.
Still finding it relatively easy to restrict the AI into not being able to play the game. Kinda disappointed that this wasn't dealt with better. They still seem to be setting up extremely negative/cautious in a lot of games that I've seen considering the caliber of players they have.
This is with all my own tactics/instructions, no exploits. Surely Spurs should be at least able to manage a shot of any kind after 3 corners, 86% passes completed and 45% possession?
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FM22 - This is how I counter attack
in Tactics, Training & Strategies Discussion
Posted
Yes, absolutely.
433 specifically works really well for it I've found because you can keep the same midfield 3 which gives a lot of solidity in the middle.
4231's problem for me is that I don't like CAM as a role in FM when it's behind a lone striker, I don't like their interplay. If it's a CAM behind two strikers it works much better for me.
What I've been trying recently with my Chelsea team is this:
The IF ends up being the main goalscorer for me with this so far. I tried multiple roles for the CAM and so far AP-A works with the lone striker, but I'd need to test it with other teams first to be sure whether I truly like it or not because my Chelsea team is really stacked with talent so it's a bad example of what does/doesn't work since the league isn't as balanced as it should be in the year 2041.
442 is a good formation for this style of football too, it becomes really hard to break down.