[Can you realistically re-create the new tactical craze 3-2-4-1/ "W M" Pep/Xavi/Arteta]

I personally don't think it's possible to get it faithful to what Pep or Arteta do irl.
If the goal is to just get the shape though. I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to achieve the right shape from a 3-4-2-1 or 3-4-3 formation

[My attempt at recreating Arsenal in FM]

1 hour ago, _mxrky said:

What PI's do you use if any?

Gk: nothing
Rb: sit narrower
Rcb: nothing
Lcb: stay wider
LB: nothing
Dmr: nothing
Dml: nothing
Amr: nothing
Amcr: Get further forward, Move into channels
Aml: Stay wider
Stcl: nothing

Personally the defensive solidity of the double pivot, is worth it in exchange of trying to have a more faithful replication like you and have the Xhaka role in Lcm.
I have given a bit thought to trying the wide players in ML and MR to see how it influences the play in terms of keeping width longer. Might give it a spin, could maybe also make it even more solid defensively.

[My attempt at recreating Arsenal in FM]

So i have been playing around for the last bit of time in FM trying to recreate Arsenals tactic. Now my attempt isn't a faithful attempt to try and really get it from real life into FM. I thought of my attempt more as what generel dynamics happen when Arsenal play. And then how do i implement some of them, while creating a tactic that will actually perform well in FM. Not saying this is in any way a super tactic or anything, but it did overachieve while producing football resembling some of the things happening irl.

So lets start with the shape. Arsenal for the most part defend in a 4-4-1-1 or 4-4-2 shape, from what i've seen. 
So i settled on this shape in game:

With this shape we often press in 4-2-4, while not exactly what Arsenal do, gave a very effective high press in game, which i think we can all agree Arsenal have in real life. And when defending more settled we often had a hybrid 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1 shape, even sometimes because of Xhaka's attack duty, we sometimes ended up defending in a 4-1-4-1.

Now with the roles as seen in the picture I had to leave things from irl, that I just found impossible to translate in game, or at least the tactic as whole not becoming much worse as result. The biggest issue in terms of roles are with Xhaka. Getting a replica in terms of movements more alike real life with Zinchenko tucking in and Xhaka being higher, i would've wanted him in LCM with a mezzala role. But from what i tried the tactic as whole just become much worse, despite getting the movement from both players i actually wanted to replicate real life. Instead i settled at what you see above.
There was still times though we would achieve the right 3-2-5/2-3-5 structure that Arsenal so often employ when settled in attack.
Ben Whites role is another one where i think a FB-s role would suit better in terms of replicating real life, i just found if i did that Saka was often isolated too much, and he wasn't with WB-s, Maybe if i had a more attack minded RB i would use FB-s instead, could be interesting to see at least.

One thing i was pleasantly surprised by was the interchanges between my striker and left winger, without any added instructions to encourage it, it just happened naturally that they rotated, resembling what Martinelli and Jesus do irl.

Looking at the instructions:
 

These are not necessarily aimed at recreating Arsenal, but more performing in FM. But i would say for the most part there aren't many of them that go against what Arsenal try to do. Run at defence is probably the most questionable one, and if i was to make a faithful recreation i would leave out. I do however often feel that without it, my players often have alot of space in front of them and just doodle around with the ball instead of moving into space, which is what i want from them, hence it's there.

Now for the results:

We nearly got a domestic treble, which i am pleased with. The Europa League got tanked on purpose because of schedule just being too crammed and the Prem was the priority. Now 90 goals in the league i am very happy with, but what i am most happy with is the 20 goals conceded. That i think is a very very good defensive record.

Oh also just to end i use these OIs.

[Playing out the back vs strong teams(Liverpool)]

This is how the tactic looks, the three others in the defensive line and the dm have been told to pass shorter, otherwise there's not been touched any passing settings

[Playing out the back vs strong teams(Liverpool)]

5 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

To make that pass happen you need to play out of the back more directly I think. It’s a quite a risky and vertical passing option. A typical build up pattern for quick transitions.

And i guess what i mean by playing out the back against a side like Liverpool, isn't patient faffing about in my own box, but when they press in the game there's always some man left open, so i guess what i am actually interested in, is if anyone have found a way to get their team to find the spare man consistently, when the opposition press as shown in the video, or just in general against a high pressing side

[Playing out the back vs strong teams(Liverpool)]

These were his instructions for that game, and no play out the back instruction was on, just distribute to Centre backs

[Playing out the back vs strong teams(Liverpool)]

 

So here is an example of us playing out the back. The result with Saka getting the ball with Robertson in his back is not actually to bad imo, if only he played it back first time to White. We would've alleviated the first pressure, and be in a good position to consolidate in the midfield i think.
Now my biggest issue with the clip is the very first few seconds. 

I would've liked Saliba to make the pass into Ødegaard. who then lays off to White. From what i know it's not possible to specify a pattern like this, but in this instance against Liverpool i would've liked that to happen. For the most part i like the structure, apart from maybe Saka a bit wider.

[Playing out the back vs strong teams(Liverpool)]

So I like making tactics and trying them with Arsenal, since i think they have a quite versatile strong squad, while not being incredibly op.
While making these tactics, and trying them i obviously end up playing Liverpool and City, who are for me notoriously difficult to play out the back against. I've been able to make tactics that win against them quite often, but not in the particular way i would like. Right now i am working on sort of an Arteta inspired tactic, but i wouldn't call it a replica. But enough of the style is still based on complete control, and i would like to be able to consistently be able to play out against the best sides aswell.

So my question is not necessarily about direct tactical changes i should make, but more have any of you been able to achieve in the first season playing out the back against those two sides, without being either Liverpool or City? And if you did, anything you think was reason for it happening

[Pressing in a possession based system (Guardiola, Arteta, De zerbi)]

6 hours ago, Mutumba said:

What did this look like in your PIs? 

Pretty sure i had every player man marking whoever they are stood near in the picture

[Pressing in a possession based system (Guardiola, Arteta, De zerbi)]

Specific player marking, and the lopsided striker and wingback slot are needed imo, if it's a fullback he doesn't sit high enough, and striker towards the side makes sure he sticks to that cb. haven't noticed anything that roles really do differently

[Pressing in a possession based system (Guardiola, Arteta, De zerbi)]

I've been trying both in Fm 22 and 23, the closest i've gotten was just full individual player man marking, and honestly against lesser teams it was actually very effective.
Here we somewhat achieve the structure, it's a bit awkward because dortmund don't really play out the back, but did get a couple situations looking like this.
I would've liked to be able to set up in a regular 4-3-3, but need to lopside it a bit to get the defensive structure to look like this, if the striker is in the middle he doesn't stick properly to the Rcb, and the right fullback needs to be in the wingback slot, or he wont be high enough to properly press the fullback

[Which role does suit Haaland best?]

Sorry i worded that wrong. I meant that i don't think it makes much sense to compare roles just by making a quick tactic and simulating with that role used.
Would make more sense to me to make a tactic with the aim of either maximizing Hålands scoring, or find which role within the tactic makes it tick better.

[Which role does suit Haaland best?]

Not gonna lie, without the rest of the tactic used, it's pretty hard to use those numbers for anything.

[Should I use opposition instructions?]

The only thing I use is just showing the wide cbs and fullbacks onto their opposite foot, so left cb onto his right foot. Just seems to me it makes a difference in pressing, nothing significant, but does make the press better IMO.

[Arteta’s Arsenal recreation]

15 hours ago, The3points said:

Similar to Focus play through Middle and Wide width. Arteta's Arsenal I believe lead the league (or led the league last season) in terms of central play with something like 25-28%.

I agree with the focus middle aspect.
I might be remembering wrong, but I think Pep somewhat recently said that he prefers his side to play through the middle, even though it's significantly harder, but the rewards are much greater, paraphrasing obviously, but hope you get what I mean. And I think Arteta has the same idea for the most part, shocking I know. 

[Arteta’s Arsenal recreation]

18 minutes ago, The3points said:

And on another note, does the swap position instruction still work? It doesn't show up on the popup player instruction screen but only on the player instruction subheading, which I've found to be buggy and a little annoying

It does, i've been using it a bit, can't tell if it improves performance on my tactics, but i just like the player swap, so i use it

[Arteta’s Arsenal recreation]

To add to the replication one thing that happens now that Trossard plays instead of Nketiah, and also stood out in the first part of the season with Jesus, was how fluid Martinellis role was, and how he often swapped with Jesus and now Trossard, which he didn't with Nketiah.

Could perhaps add the swap position instruction between the striker and left winger

[Arteta’s Arsenal recreation]

Best replication of Arsenal i've seen on here so far, not really anything in terms of roles i disagree with, and i think your reasoning is sound.
One question though, and it might not be anything you've tried, but i'm still going to ask.
Have you ever tried replicating the specific way Artetas press is, where on of the wingers tuck in to press a cb, and then the full back would come support that press going on the full back left by the winger?

5 hours ago, CKBrahMa said:

Hello everyone !

After months and my failed attempt to make Saka a Ballon d'Or winner, WE ARE BACK WITH NEW IDEAS to RECREATE ARSENAL 22/23 !

The differences with the first attempt are, basically, my understanding of the system. Some new stuffs poped up :

• The new meta of Football : the box midfield ;
• The use of IRL heat maps for : Martin Odegaard ; Bukayo Saka ; Gabriel Martinelli ; Granit Xhaka ; Thomas Partey ; Gabriel Jesus ; Ole Zinchenko ; Ben White ;
• Looking on how Arsenal create their goalscoring chances : the use of cutbacks ;
• An in-depth video on how Arsenal play with the ball : Warning it's a french baguette video ;
• Rashidi "old" videos that i suggest : Passing triangle ; Football Intelligence on FM

 

So, let's start with what stay the same : the SHAPE

Indeed, we're still going with a 4-3-3.

Some can argue that Arsenal defend in a 442, a 4411 or even in a 451 shape.

However, stating this is, IMO, forgeting something essential about Arsenal (and IRL football) : IRL football teams are way more fluid that what FM allows us to be. Or, to be even more precise, if you want to emulate at best what Arsenal create IRL, you should :

1. have different shape ready : a 433, a 442 and an agressive 4231. Why that's ? Because Arteta doesn't ask the same thing during the game to his team. Indeed, he ask them to be very agressive at the beginning of each 45 minutes. So, you "should" ask them to start with a 4231 for the first 15 minutes of each half-time, then go with a 433 to control the game and a 442 to kill it ;
2. be ready to adapt for each game you face in FM. Even though we can translate some guideline of Arteta's principles, he still reacts and adapts depending on the opponent. It is why that, sometimes, the build-up phase starts with a 3 at the back, and sometimes only two, why sometimes you see Ben White overlapping and sometimes staying a bit deeper ;
3. finally, it is WRONG to say that FM is static. Depending on your players, your pressing intensity, your width and the opponent shape, even if you have a 433, they can still defend in a 442'ish shape.

 

The principles

 

In a press conference while he was an Assistant of our Lord Pep Guardiola, Arteta stated that he wanted his team to :

• produce an expressive and engaging football ;
• not be entirely focus on the opponent ;
• dictate the tempo and create chances ;
• entertain our fans.

In FM terms, we can translate these like this :

1. not going route-one or a counter-attacking playstyle : he wants a possession-based tactic ;
2. we should ask the question to our opponents, and not answer theirs : he wants a possession-based tactic that can be used over and over (which is nice for FM) ;
3. we decide if the game is played slow or quickly at the condition that we're still the ones producing the most and better chances : he wants an agressive possession-based tactic, that can be used over and over (meaning, we don't want possession for the sake of it) ;
4. we want emotions, we have to take risks to score goals : he wants an agressive possession-based tactic in order to win whatever it takes, that can be used over and over (meaning, we play to win, a draw must feel like a defeat).

In other word, it really looks like the vertical tiki-taka preset of FM. And it is going to be our starting point, even though we're going to tweak it.

The roles and duties

We're going to focus on some roles and duty :

The Zinchenko role : IWB-s

Heatmap

As you can see, he starts wide but can play very centrally (way more than Ben White, who stays wider without overlap that much).

Zinchenko is a huge creator, that can also contribute during the attacking phase to be a passing outlet and recycle possession.

Furthermore, he's one of the player in the 'midfield box", along side...

The Partey role : DM-s

Heatmap

Not much to say : he is the fixing point to build from defence to midfield. He's the 2nd player of the bottom of the midfield box.

The Ødegaard role : Mezz-s

Heatmap

IMO, it is the hardest role to figure out. His heatmap suggests that he's eaither a Mezz-s, a CM-a or an AP-a. Why do I choose the Mezz-s :

1. Even if he can be central, his heatmap suggest that he stays a bit more in the right half-space. So, if he was a CM-a, I should add the PI "Run on the flanks with ball" ;
2. Being an AP-a means he becomes a ball magnet, which is 1. not true and 2.not what we want in FM (we're not looking for an overload on this side). Furthermore, it means that he may drops deeper to get the ball which is, according to his heatmap, not true ;

The Xhaka Role : BBM-s with PIs

Heatmap

He is a problem : he's the last member of midfield box but have to be up & down the pitch and wider when Martinelli comes in.

That's why we aim for a BBM-s, with "Run wide with the ball" PI's.

If we take a look at the vertical Tiki-Taka preset, we're not that far from what Arsenal is producing :

Regarding our analysis, this is our version :

Which, in possession should look like this :

You can see that we occupy the 5 channels, like the positionnal play of Arsenal suggests to.

Some may say that we lack of penetration on the box (with only the IF and the DLF-s coming late).

This is where the TI's are coming to play...

 

 

 

[Replicating Ten Hag's United tactics?]

Personally i don't think the keeper should be set on short kicks if you're going for replication of them right now. Because it's De Gea in net imo they go long more than they would if they had a keeper who's quality with their feet. I think in the long run we will see them play more out the back when they've got a new keeper, but as it is right now they go long more.

[Inverted Wing backs working?]

Also when do you expect them to be narrow, because in different parts of transitions they will move narrow, and others they'll stay wide

[Inverted Wing backs working?]

I imagine having the width full and telling the team to focus play down the flanks might be causing it, only thing that stands out to me.

[Inverted Wing backs working?]

32 minutes ago, aj6658 said:

Trying to make a tactic where a Man City tactic where my fullbacks come into midfield by using the inverted fullback roles. I only have one half back and then further up I have a Carellio.

 

General tactics is playing wide, slow tempo with short passing. Ive got individual instructions on wingers to stay wide.

 

I was hoping that the fullbacks would come inside with the Half back but currently they are wider than my Wingers 

 

 

Only thing i can think if that should stop him from coming inside is if you have a dm on the side where your iwb is. Could you post your whole tactic?

[Replicating Arsenals pressing]

51 minutes ago, _mxrky said:

Have you got a version vs back 5s. Pressing back 5s seems impossible on fm

Nothing i've tried no, but i do remember the structure we used against spurs, which was actually lopsided compared to how we have pressed most of the time against other teams.

So this would be how we set up from Goal kicks. Lloris would pass it to their Lcb, who Ødegaard would press, only short option available is the Lwb, who Saka then would press while covering the passing lane towards Højbjerg in Lcm, either forcing them long, or Højbjerg to drift wide to receive where Partey would be very tight on him, while Højbjerg faces towards the sideline

At this point i don't really know what to do, because if i achieve the structure from a goal kick, the rest of our defence is so bad theres no point in trying it anyway, and i need to move people around depending on what formation the opponent plays, which is not really something i want to spend my time doing when playing FM. And if i don't go all out with the man marking instructions, and the formation we obviously don't achieve the right structure, so i guess i'm back at that point, where i will just have to be content with the couple things that i can replicate in FM and leave it at that. I will keep trying because i'm a stubborn bastard, but i'm not really even sure what i could try to do differently, feels like i've tried every permutation of instructions that i can think of.

If anyone has any ideas please share, i still really want to get this to work
 

[Replicating Arsenals pressing]

2 minutes ago, _mxrky said:

striker on the left. Doesn't that ruin attacking in the five channels?

Sometimes, which again is why i have to constantly remind myself there's only a handful of things at once i get right when trying to replicate it, before there's to many thing interfering

[Replicating Arsenals pressing]

9 minutes ago, _mxrky said:

Did you use the same 433 formation for this?

Only change from the 4-3-3 presented in the first is the right back has been moved to wing back slot, and is a wb-d. Oh also striker moved to the left