[Improving my 4-3-3 (I think it is almost there!)]

4 minutes ago, to_madeira said:

@ozilthegunner It's not about the IWB. Underlaps tells your (righ sided) players to look players running inside not just the full backs and looks to me that's what your plan (both Raum and Mezz are making these runs). I've used a similar setup (IFa instead of Raum) and achieved that overload one side to explore the other with a combination of Focus play + underlap.

Rashidi has a great video on this matter if you want to check it out.

I see, thanks. And yeah, I am familiar with that approach. I was actually trying to build the overload on the other side (IWs, APa, IWBs) to release the raum... but then I realized the MEZ was probably getting too close to the raum (stay wide hard PI) which may have prevented the isolation. So I change the MEZ to a B2B, but that hasn't seemed to help (I wouldn't think the 'roaming' would cause a problem, as with focus right he'd roam that direction I'd assume)

But yeah, I see, could still work well with the IW, AP, and IWB (now underlapping). Although I feel like I do already get the overload, just not the release

[Improving my 4-3-3 (I think it is almost there!)]

@Experienced Defender Yeah, you got the formation right (sorry, I thought if  I tried to do what you did it could be all odd looking)

As for the notes about TIs:

• I had often been turning off 'play through the middle' in favor of 'play down the right' (or nothing, but more often focus right). Although, the very best games I played had it on. But, that is part of the reason I have turned it off entirely as of late. Although I clearly lose the really cool close interplay at the top of the box that I really liked before
• Thanks for the note on 'Work ball into box'... that is part of why I am trying to play with the combo of passing distance, tempo, and WTIB... I do want generally smart buildup and close interplay in the attacking third, so trying to find the right combo for that. Thoughts?
• I did forget I have been using "Be more Expressive" the whole time... I totally agree it really helps when playing this type of system (used to just turn it on mid game, but now it is permanent)

And fair play about the defense, my apologies for not including lines. I left both LOE and DL on 'standard' when on 'attacking' mentality, and made pressing 'more urgent' (and closing down more on front 3 as well). When I switched to positive, I upped the LOE and DL to just 'higher'. Pressing is the same

 

@To Madeira - yeah, underlap makes more sense given the IWB, but I have found that the overlap leads to him mostly going inside but occasionally going outside and I like that dynamism...

[Improving my 4-3-3 (I think it is almost there!)]

Been working on a 4-3-3DM in my Arsenal save and had some really great successes (3-0 against Chelsea, 5-1 against Liverpool in back-to-back premier league games, and I deactivated the initial transfer window so using the actual squad). But then it started getting inconsistent: Tons of (good) shots with no goals (against both offensive and defensive teams) and now relatively few (good) shots and few or no goals (wins are often 1-0). I have tweaked it a few times, but none of the tweaks clearly corresponded to the peaks or troughs. So, hoping you all can help (and sorry for lack of pictures -  I play on a separate machine):

ST: Complete Forward-Attack (have tried other things, but only CF has regularly kept the striker involved and attack seems better than support at doing so)

LW: Raumdateur-Attack right now, but pretty useless. Had IF-a previously, not really any better. Tried winger (support and attack) but again pretty useless. Hands down the least involved player on the team.

RW: Inverted Winger-Support: Must build tactic around this, as everyone that plays here (and especially Pepe) does really well both assisting and scoring

LCM: Mezzala-Support or BBM-Support: Does ok, once upon a time (as MZ-s) was doing great

RCM: Advanced Playmaker-Attack: Does great, almost always 7+ player rating, made a lot of chances (up until recent massive reduction in chances across the team)

DM: DM-defense, previously support. Does fine. I do notice a benefit when playing a player with better passing (and long range/risky passing PPMs)

LB: WB-support, previously Inverted Wingback-Defend and then -Support. IWB(d) provided cover but was otherwise useless (sort of covered for the MZ though). IWB(s) covered and provided some attacking value. Went to WB-support because I was worried I was getting too narrow.

LCB: BPD-Defend

RCB: CB-Defend

RB: IWB-Support. Combines well in build up and is really dynamic in attack (with 'overlap right' TI on, he plays sort of like a CWB but narrower). I feel like maybe I should not invert him in order to maintain width, but his involvement in build-up is so nice.

GK: SK-defend

 

Was originally playing on attacking mentality with much shorter passing, play through the middle, overlap right, and work ball into box. That worked a treat in the early days. Lots of intricate passing at the top of the box followed by sliding in a runner who shot or laid it off for a teammate.

Now playing on positive mentality with shorter passing, lower tempo, focus play on the right, overlap right. Thought is to overload the right (with the IW, AP, and IWB) and then hit the Raum in space, but that has basically never worked.

Obviously there are some other TIs, but I think that covers the key stuff I am mostly worried about... we don't concede much at all (even on attacking against Chelsea/Liverpool in those games mentioned earlier) and so maybe I should work on the defense, but need the offense ticking first.

Any thoughts?!

[fm-21 play from behind with Backward]

If you want more patient play, lower the tempo and/or shorten up the passing (these are related). Lowering the mentality also has this effect. I cannot tell your current mentality is, but mess with those 3 pieces (mentality, passing, tempo) and that should help. In fact, go cautious/defensive with a much lower tempo and much shorter passing and probably all you'll get is backwards passing. Then you can start to release some from there until you get what you want

[how do i get kevin de bruyne the ball more. I want my attacks to focus on him but it never does.]

A Mez on attack is supposed to show up in the box, so it is not surprising he is scoring a lot

Given the other roles you have here, I'd switch him to a Roaming Playmaker... he'll attract the ball, work to be available for the pass constantly, and then thread through balls into the box. Could do an advanced playmaker if you wanted instead (probably on support, but perhaps with 'get further forward' added) but I would prefer an RPM given your overall setup

[Help recreating Ancelottis Everton 4-3-3]

As I understood what Everton has generally been trying to do (and this is heavily informed by the Tifo football video, but also watching them) they blend the Liverpool and City styles. On Digne's side, the fullback gets forward (a la Liverpool) while on the opposite side, the #8 gets forward (a la classic Pep). This means the right fullback inverts.

So, just in terms of roles/duties from the original post, I'd make the BBM a MEZ(s) and then make the right fullback an IWB on either defend or support. I'd drop Digne to support as well, but as a WB, so he'll still get plenty forward

[Refining my Positional Play Tactic]

47 minutes ago, wyattevs said:

Hi, where is this positional role map found? It looks really helpful, and I am just beginning to play the game.

I did that in Rate my Tactic (https://ratemytactic.web.app) and that is what puts the connections on there (and explains what the different colors mean). Don't use it as the end-all-be-all of tactic creation, but I think it can be a bit helpful

And thanks @Experienced Defender... yeah, I thought the double attack duties were an issue in the first place, but didn't want to shift the mezzala over (since that'd upset the right side combinations), definitely wanted him to get more involved in attack (so wanted an attack duty) but was concerned about goal involvement if the IF was on support. I now think I better understand how to get an IF in support to still be involved in the box well, etc. and so have shifted the IF to support. Definitely does help with involvement (and the IF not running into cul-de-sacs)

[Lacking punch in attack]

I don't think it is surprising that Carrasco is getting on the scoring sheet... he has the most attack-minded role/duty of the bunch (along with Felix, I suppose, although that will partly depend on PIs). That also explains why you are so wing heavy, and presumably down the right? Your team is told to get the ball to the RCM (because he is a DLP) and then he is going to look for passes, and the most available one will be the RB or the RW in many cases.

If you want more link-up play, then you want your individual players to have a lower mentality... I am pretty sure your IF is 'very attacking' with a positive mentality. Probably the AMa as well. This is going to tell them to get going forward as quick as possible, rather than look to link-up. It'll also tell them that, when they receive the ball, they should be looking to score quickly rather than be more patient and pass and probe.

On the other hand, going with more support duties (or otherwise reducing the mentalities of some of these players) can lead to impotence in attack, too, as none may take enough of a risk or drive forward enough. That can largely be handled through both PIs and PPMs. You can (for instance) put someone like Carrasco in as an IF(s) or (even better for link-up) IW(s) but then give him PIs that encourage more risk in various ways (more dribbling, more direct passing, roaming, get further forward, etc.) or, if he has PPMs like 'gets further forward', 'tries killer balls', etc. then that'll also compensate.

So, given all this, what I may recommend is changing up Carrasco to have him be more involved in build-up. A support duty for sure, probably more like IW than IF, but you could try both. I may leave the AM on attack, although perhaps make that support as well (you can still tell him to 'get further forward' if desired). Then, try (some of) the following with Team Instructions:

• Work Ball into Box - makes your team more patient and willing to link up... will likely result in fewer shots, but they'll be higher quality and you can see some really great short-range play at times
• Increase attacking width - start with just 'wide', but think about 'extra wide' (or whatever it is called) if need be. The idea here is to give your players more space to stretch the defense horizontally in order to find those gaps to play through balls, etc. while you are patiently probing
• Be more creative - I have found that in games where we have possession and probe a lot but don't find our way through, if I tell the players to be more creative, we become a bit better... I am still unsure about this as a standard TI, but certainly a good situational one
• Shorter passing - I would probably do this instead of lowering tempo directly (if you shorten up passing completely, it will lower the tempo some). The shorter passing directly encourages more link-up and so should encourage your players to show for ball more and in closer areas (assuming other instructions aren't telling them otherwise, like playing an IF(a)). Just lowering tempo doesn't do that, it just tells players to think a bit more about the passing, but for all that they could still blast it in the end, which you are trying to avoid

[Refining my Positional Play Tactic]

I've been using the following 433 tactic for about a season total (started end of one season, in Feb. of the next now) and it has been pretty decent results-wise and I'm seeing precisely what I want in some places. But, some parts were designed with certain veteran players in mind who are now on their way out, so I am looking to enhance some of the less effective elements and hoping for some assistance.

We play with an attacking mentality (I've occasionally dropped it to positive, but usually just alter TIs if we need to be a bit more cautious) with the following instructions 

• In possession: Slightly shorter passing, play out of defense, work ball into box, overlap left, overlap right, wide
• Transition: Counter-press
• Out of possession: Higher DL and LOE, use offside trap

There are various player instructions, too (and some key PPMs) - here are (I think) the most relevant:

• CD: Stay wider (to cover for right back)
• RB: No extra instructions, but PPMs include getting forward whenever possible, running often
• RPM: More direct passes, move into channels, close down more... PPMs: dictate play, switch ball to other flank, attempt killer balls, play 1-2s
• Mez: Dribble more... PPMs: Play 1-2s, get into oppo area, gets forward whenever possible
• IF: Stay wider... PPMs: Get further forward, play 1-2s
• IW: Stay wider... PPMs: Run with ball often, play 1-2s

We get a good amount of goals and they are heavily spread around (this is partly due to high number of corner goals, but open play are spread) and are reasonably defensively solid. In general, the right side is quite good...

IWB(s), RPM(s), and IW(s) combine well... the IW (Saka or Pepe) is my top assister, the IWB (Bellerin or this new attack minded MC I'm retraining) gets forward a lot and combines in great ways - sometimes goes outside IW and combines or sends in crosses, sometimes comes inside IW and scores from outside the box. The RPM facilitates all this and finds a good number of through balls to the striker, IW, or IWB after a bunch of short passing

But I am looking to get more from the left. Originally, I had Aubamayang in the LW, so IF(a) made sense to get him scoring. Worked okay (not great) but now he is gone and the existing replacement is more well-rounded but slower. The MEZ was originally Donny van de Beek, and he was okay (again, not great) at scoring/assisting but he has been sold. Also, although I want my CF to combine some, I do want him more involved in scoring than he has been.

At this point, I am likely in the market for a new left CM and potentially left winger (I like the current guy, but he is young, so am open to bringing in more immediate quality). I also recently picked up a new worldclass striker who is tall, strong, and fast with good ability to combine and make things for himself

Play I had in mind: I generally had in mind 4 main attack approaches (not counting counter opportunities)

1. Develop play on right before RPM switches field to IF in space (supported by MEZ)
2. IW driving against isolated defender before shooting/passing
3. Intricate passing play around center of the pitch before playing a slipped pass into IF or IW
4. Cutbacks to MEZ or IWB(s) at top of box

I get (2)-(4) to various degrees, although (3) is very right side dominant (so IF doesn't really get involved)

 

Any thoughts on improvements? I've recently switched the F9 to a CF(a) and just toyed with making the IF(a) and IW(A), which immediately resulted in a great goal for him, but otherwise has been meh. The change to CF(a) hasn't seemed to change much at all. I'm open to changing basically any role/duty on the left side (and striker) but would like to keep the right side as is given how well it is working, but can perhaps be convinced of other changes. I'd like the IF (or left sided attacker whatever his role) and striker to be my main goal threats

[Fast attack style and the attacking mentality]

On 09/11/2020 at 02:36, TehGoatLord said:

I have at best Lautaro to play the support striker role but I don't know how good he will be as a CF since it takes some aerial prowess to play. Doesn't hurt to try, I guess. 

 

This is what I lucked out on trying to tinker around with the settings. My primary play being a wide ball to Chiesa who either dribbles and crosses or passes to the mez who either shoots or crosses. Shooting more often than not so I might actually see if a Carrilero is a better option out there. The striker stays focused on the right channel which creates the overload for Chiesa to move into. Once the defense shifts to the right, Rashford is 1v1 at the far post. This has become my bread and butter the last 4 matches. However, I am struggling a bit with through balls behind my defense so I might drop the line. 

 

Yeah, I'd take off 'work ball into box'. I use that sometimes, but never start with it... It cuts against the fast attack style you want. If you are doing it because you are only getting long range shots, etc. then the better option is to up the mentality and/or widen your attack.

For me, and this doesn't always work but often does, if I find it hard to break down a low block or some such then I make my attack very wide (I use wide by default) and increase the tempo. Now the ball will get pinged around a lot quicker, potentially pulling defenders out of position.

I also think your winger on attack may be a bit problematic - He'll want to pick up the ball and run as fast as he can to the byline for a cross... I'd be worried that Rashford is too close to him to properly get on the end. Perhaps not, maybe he winds up at the near post a lot and it works, but given the asymmetric element that is one thing to consider

Finally, I agree with @Experienced Defender: I, too, was bouncing around different tactics for a bit and none quite worked but I just kept tinkering. Once I settled on a formation and general style as represented by the (nearly) constant TIs and player roles, things were much better. I still tweak a role here or there for a specific game, and of course alter the TIs during the game, but I get a lot more consistency now that my players understand our main tactical approach

[Fast attack style and the attacking mentality]

To add to my previous comment - if you want fast transitions, then you need multiple players making runs into space. Just one player isn't necessarily enough, since he can be crowded out. That is why (I think) others have been recommending more attacking mentalities (or at least one reason).

I said I have the IF on attack but the other 2 forwards on support, however my CF seems to still push the line (so is there for transitions) and my most common right winger has 'tries to beat the offside trap' PPM. So, I think given all that, I effectively have 3 attack duties without labeling them.

But, if you want to do something similar without the PIs, then I think I recall others saying that you can play an Inverted Winter and striker both on attack duties (whereas the inside forward and striker both on attack supposedly creates issues). I have not really tried this myself, but that may be an option for you - change the IF to an IW, put on attack, but keep the striker on attack as well

[Fast attack style and the attacking mentality]

On 06/11/2020 at 01:05, TehGoatLord said:

I shifted to an attacking mentality with a lower block

This one has been working great for three matches.

 

In the same vein, I was thinking of something like this

Suggestions on this 4-1-2-3 would be great while I test it out. 

So, I am currently playing a similar system to your 4-3-3 in my Arsenal save. It started as more possession oriented, and so looked similar to what you currently have, but I am also trying to make it more fast attacking (with possession as the "plan B" in a sense). So, here are some of the other changes I made (other than making the DM just a DM rather than DLP to move the ball more quickly):

• The IF on attack, rather than support. For me, the striker is a complete forward on support to counterbalance (as I understand it, generally speaking an IF on attack does not play well with a striker on attack, although perhaps some striker roles on attack may work). While, I suppose, all that does is change who is going to push the line, I have found that a CF on support will still try to get past the defense on the transition (and I'm using Lacazette there so it isn't really due to his PPMs) but with the IF on attack, he will be more advanced to help the striker out or push the line himself
• My CM(a) has PIs to take more risks, which helps both in transition but also when we are pinning the opposition back and need to break through. My main player there (van de Beek - stole him from you guys!) has PPMs to get into the opposition area and some others that are very offensively minded, so that may be relevant, too in terms of figuring out how involved he'll be
• Although I keep tweaking it, so am not sure if it'll stay this way, I have my FB on the right on attack duty, or at least with PIs attached to a support duty that get him more involved in the attack quickly. For me, the right wing is inverted, so that is why it works for me - but you could still do something similar but have the FB stay narrower, etc. so that he is more focused on underlapping rather than overlapping

I am still trying to crack this ME (just picked the game up a bit ago when it was free from Epic Games and had not played FM since 2017 before) so don't take what I say with too much authority, but some ideas

[WB-S or FB-A?]

8 minutes ago, Domus Clamantium said:

If you want the positives of WB(S) without the negatives, add the "Close Down Less" PI.

This won't help with the defensive positioning, though, right? @Xavier Lukhas says the WB not only closes down sooner, but positions higher in the first place. I have no idea if that is correct, but if so, 'close down less' won't totally fix.

But also it was mentioned that WB's, due to the 'run wide with ball' don't get quite as involved in possession, etc. - closing down less won't change that either.

Anyway, interested if others agree, broadly, with @Xavier Lukhas's analysis, as I have been struggling with precisely what roles/duties to use in the FB positions

[An ode to Ozil (updated for FM21)]

This is great, thanks for sharing. I, too, tried to get Ozil going in my Arsenal save but to no avail. Didn't attempt the RPM (or CM slot at all), but have been wanting to make use of that role. Don't have Ozil anymore, but this has helped me think about how to integrate the RPM role

But now you are making me want to just restart my Arsenal campaign (I'm in the winter window of the 2nd season, so not too far along) just so I can make use of Ozil!

[Fast attack style and the attacking mentality]

A relatively simple change to your first tactic, that will make it more attacking, is changing the DM role into a non-playmaker role. Playmaker roles attract the ball, so having one in your DM strata increases the likelihood that your team will go back to him when he is a decent option, even if there are other similar options ahead. And, if the options ahead require riskier decision making, that'll increase the likelihood they'll just go back to the playmaker.

So, either play without a designated playmaker - leave it to your players to decide who is the best option at any time - or move your designated playmaker up the field, so that the playmaker's attraction is at least higher up the pitch.

I figured this out with my Arsenal save in trying to move to a more attacking system, and I also use a 4-1-4-1DM wide. I generally play with just a DM (usually d, sometimes support) in the #6 slot. He still recycles possession and finds important passes when necessary, and regularly gets high ratings, but doesn't suck up the ball. I now have an AP on attack as one of the #8's, but since he is often receiving the ball quite high up the pitch (often within 10 yards of the top of the penalty area) it really helps with the attacking impetus. Interestingly, I found that my best player in that position toward the end of the season (Granit Xhaka) had the PPM to 'drop deep for the ball', which I saw him do, and I think that also really helped with moving the ball up and down the field. I had mostly planned for Donny van de Beek to have that role, with his more attacking impetus ("gets into opposition area", etc) and he is fine, but so far not as good (although he isn't as integrated into the team, only had 1/2 a season)

2 other things, only one of which really applies to you: I found that not discouraging dribbling really helped my team. It freed Pepe, in particular, to just be world class (19/10 g/a in premier league, but with a late start for finding how to get him working) and really helped me be more interesting in the attack. I notice you don't currently use 'dribble less', so you are good on that front, but given how often I see people add the 'dribble less' PI to their team and then complain of a lack of attacking intent, thought I'd mention it.

The other thing is the 'shorter passing'. I do sometimes use that (or 'slightly lower tempo', rarely both), but I generally do not. I still tend to have a lot of possession (60%) in most games without any of the TIs commonly associated with possession game (nor the PIs). But, sometimes if I want to take more control, that is when I enable one of those TIs. But, point is, my attacking impetus is so much better without any of that.