[[FM20] Help me achieve the football I want]

6 minutes ago, Justified said:

Like I said, it's just my personal preference because I know how to make it work. If you get it interacting with attacking roles around him and width spreading play he can switch things really nicely and really shift a defence to pieces. He shouldn't get too close to the area like an AP does as he is lower down the field.

I'll try having on the left only the IW(a) and put the AMC more on the center and make a 4-4-1-1 without the striker and the AMC being on the left or right, because I have the fear that they will run into each other, but the same can be said about the AMC and the PF, let me try this out

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12 minutes ago, Justified said:

I've always been a fan of DLPsu + CMd in midfield. That's my personal preference because I like the double pivot midfield.

I think I will test it, I used it in fm19 aswell to some mixed results.
I just fear that the DLP(s) will go near the opposition area a few too many times, but I will try it

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I think I've settled in a 4-2-2-1-1 that has a mixture of what you @Experienced Defender and @Justified said. I like the idea of the IW on attack on the left, it felt like my counter attack and even positional attack improved with him there. I used the WM(s) on the right and from what I've seen I liked, but using Pizzi/Zivkovic/Tiago Dantas there will be the real test since they have more of a creator profile than a winger, but since they are all injured not much can be done

The only thing that has been hard to get right is the AMC, but work will be done.
If I wanted to push the DMC's to the mc strata and press higher, what would be your suggestions?

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4 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Okay. As you use a regista, I hope that you have the right type of player for that role, because it's more tricky and demanding than an ordinary DLP. 

Now I'll give you an example of how you can set up a 42211 tactic employing a regista and assuming that he is a right-footed player:

PFat

AMat

IWsu                            WMsu

Ade    REG

WBat    CDde   CDde   WBsu

SKsu

Given that you are Benfica (a top team in your national league), I would probably go with these starting team instructions:

Mentality - Positive or Balanced

In possession - play out of defence, shorter passing and run at defence

In transition - counter-press (but not always)

Out of possession - higher D-line and offside trap

Player instructions:

ML/IWsu - sit narrower

AMat - roam from position

Thank you so much!

My registas are pretty good, I have Gabriel (which is an all around type of midfielder) and Weigl who needs no introduction.

Why the shorter passing? I feel like if my LOE isn't high there is no press from my team.

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6 minutes ago, Justified said:

I'd be tempted to go Positive with Benfica just because it'd give the Regista a high individual mentality so he'll be a space hunter. Quicker Tempo as default. Add WBIB + BME against Defensive sides. Counter-Press, distribute to CD + Fullbacks as default. Add counter against sides that actually give space. Out of Possession I'd have Higher DL + Offside Trap.

Tried the setup you said, liked it, just want the AMC to be a little more offensive and get more in the box, but overall worked really cool, it felt more natural in terms of space all around!

Perhaps using the AMC as an more offensive role would work? Something in the lines of a Treq or a Shadow Striker, to still drop deep and help building play but still be a threat in the box?

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15 minutes ago, Justified said:

That could be because lack of movement or congesting the middle so the AMC can't actually thread any passes through.

If you're looking for a Bruno Lage re-creation but with a Regista, PF and an AMC I would personally line-up line this:

           PFat

AMCsu                     

IWat                                 IWsu/WMsu

REG        DMCde

WBsu   CDde   CDde    FBat

SKsu

 

You could really do some damage with that I think. Not something I've ever played with but it makes sense if you want those roles in there but based on Bruno Lage.

Thank you!

The thing is that Bruno actually overflowed the left side! João Félix interchanged more with Pizzi on the right, and had few defensive responsabilities, and I don't know if I want to put a player as a trequartista, and for some reason the AMC as a support doesn't work with me , but team instructions, what would you choose?

 

EDIT: I think I'll put the forward in the center so he can run freely and Rafa/left winger will have space to run, something like this:

Or even put the AMC and the forward centraly and let them have roam from position

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4 minutes ago, Justified said:

An AMC on attack duty is not going to help you much defensively. You'll have much better luck with an AMC on support with Forward Run PI. I would personally not play through the middle because you become really one-dimensional. All opponents would have to do is line up with a box (2 DC's and 2 DMC's) or a DMC infront of a back 3 and you're attack is pretty much void. The regista is a playmaking role so the focus would pretty much be central anyways. I would tinker with width as well. For the same reason as focus through the middle, the tactic is already focused centrally so you're overkilling it IMO.

Yes, I thought the same, so I took off the play throught the middle instruction while still being narrow, it was a bit more fluid and created a few chances that I liked to see (the IW got each a 1v1 because they run behind the FB).

The AMC on attack still pressed as I wanted him to, I also want him to be somewhat high in the pitch after the recovery of the ball and perhaps be a point where my players pass the ball to.

@Justified @Experienced Defender, do you think that putting here the OI's of the players would help? I have roam from position in the IW and the AMC, and said AMC also has 'try risky passes', that being Taarabt/Chiquinho is worthy (although they've never done one of those jaw dropping passes ).

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1 hour ago, Justified said:

Insane amount of instructions... My current 442 IIRC has 5. Never had more then that active at any point pre or in game.

Also I'm not surprised that the original 442 did not work, it actually makes no sense. Take a step back, look at the TI's and roles and tell me what do you think will happen if you go into a match with those instructions? I'm just curious.

As I said previously, I don't use that 4-4-2, I use the 4-2-2-1-1.

To answer your question, what I want is something like this:https://totalfootballanalysis.com/head-coach-analysis/bruno-lage-benfica-tactical-analysis-analysis-statistics

Pretty much a swiss army knife tactic but with a more personal side to it. I wanted to create a square between the central defenders and the cm's, one being more creative and sometimes envolved in the attack, the regista, and the other being much more deeper and defensive. I want the wingers coming inside to create or sometimes run behind the defence and shoot. The striker partnership was someone who would be an all-arounder (that was João Félix) but with more defensive responsabilities and a striker that would press the oppenents build-up.

The instructions of the 4-4-2 and the 4-2-2-1-1 are different rn, but in the 4-4-2 I wanted to funnel the game and make through passes between the opponents DC's and FB's, perhaps what I've done is overforce that.
I also want to press high and be somewhat good counter attacking in the odd time it is possible (since I'm playing as Benfica that is going to rarely happen in Portugal).

Since my right side DM is the more defensive one I have sit narrower on my MR and the one on the left is left with his original narrow.

How I want to attack is the swiss army knife part. I don't want to have 70% possession and passing for the sake of it, I've already won games that I had 65% of possession and others with 35%, I'm much more concerned with what we do with the ball, that's why I have faster tempo and standard passing, for the team to be able to decide what they want to do in any given moment, without either rushing too much or slowing it down massively (I already have work ball into the box and play out of defence) so I think I can work with faster tempo.

This became longer than probably you wanted but oh well

 

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6 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Lower LOE would make sense if you want to play a counter-attacking style. But given that you are Benfica, I fear that would not be a good idea. 

 

For which formation - 442 or 42211 (or both)?

For the 4-2-2-1-1, that's my main (and only at the moment) tactic!
I played a game with standard width and focus play through the middle and another with narrow width without focus through the middle and the team felt more compact in the second one, giving less space when the ball was lost to the oppenents.

 

About the bold part, yes it would be a disaster, that's why I have both of them high

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1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

Because of your very aggressive defensive instructions + narrow width + focus play through the middle (which makes no sense, because you are forcing the play through the area that is already too congested by packed opposition defenses).

You are generally using more instructions than necessary in both tactics. Roles and duties also need some tweaking so that the setup as a whole would be more sensible. I would make it a lot more simple if it was my tactic. 

So, lower line of engagement + standard width perhaps?
I also disabled underlaps because I think it overforced even more.
And what tweaks would you do in the roles?

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2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

You'll need to post that 442 tactic as a whole (screenshot) so that I could properly analyze it and tell you what exactly were the most likely issues. 

 

As I said, post the tactic first, because otherwise I can only speculate. 

This one is the one I'm using now, with the changes, and as you is say too much bottom-heavy.

The first one was this.

As I said, it felt like it had no space. The thing I truly now want is the AM on attack, he does (from what I see) what I expect of him better than the DLF, who doesn't seem to track back to defend (perhaps due to characteristics of the player itself).

 

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@Experienced DefenderIn a 4-4-2. I thought they were too high up on the pitch. I used a CM(s)-DLP(d) partnership. But I had a DLF(s) and I didn't think he was involved enough.

I think the tactic the way it is, is good for hard teams (beaten all the big boys in Portugal besides Benfica and I am having an excellent european campaign) but for small ones it is lacking, I've drew (once again) against a really bad side.

I am just working this 4-4-2 for now, no other tactic yet.

I've been very solid defensively, but would like a little more action in the attack

Edit: Another thing I didn't said, since my full backs will be high in possession (or at least I want them to) I want the centre mids to function a bit as  a pivot, and let the wingers occupy the half spaces and also be creators.

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3 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

If so, then I don't see why you opted for this bottom-heavy formation (42dm22)? Because that type of formation is usually used by underdog teams. not top sides. 

I felt that with 2 centre midfielders there was no space to play and it felt a bit shaky defensively.
What would be your suggestions?

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35 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Don't know your team, so it's hard to offer any specific advice. Is it a top team or average or underdog?

I can only tell you how I personally would tweak the tactic to make it more sensible overall, but cannot guarantee that it will work for your team specifically.

Sorry

I'm playing as Benfica, so I'm a favourite for 90% of the matches I will do, except in Champions League.

I've beaten Sporting and Porto, as they are my rivals, but sometimes against lesses sides I don't really open them up, I always start with balanced and whether my team plays the other off the park or there will be 3 shots in 30 minutes unless I go to positive and we start doing something.

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So guys, I need help wuth my tactic. It first started as a 4-4-2 but the DLF(s) wasn't deep and didn't propely connect the midfield and the attack so I lowered him to the AM(a) strata, and I have been having good results in what I want from him, he collects the ball deep and runs with it or does a good pass while still being kinda penetrative, I've been thinking of using him as a SS. Now, his partner, I don't know how to play him. If he is on something like PF(a) or AF he will be isolated a few too many times, if he has a support role, like CF or PF he won't get behind the defence, while helping more in the build-up, but since I have 2 excellent finishers I want them to get 1v1 with the keeper.

The wing play has been interesting, been liking my right flank a lot (except when my full back hugs the touchline when there is no need) but I feel that in general they aren't real penetrative and I want my wingers to make a few more runs (my right IW has the sit narrower instruction while the left one has not). I have an excellent CWB on the left so I just play him to his strengths (since he is excellent with the ball on his feet perhaps I will change him to FB (s) and tell him to roam and sit narrower (perhaps changing the DM's)).

The Regista and HB have been solid but not brilliant, but I think they've been good enough.

So, what do I want?
I want a swiss army knife team, being able to be good with possession but also on the counter, press high but not destroying all the defensive side of the things, as I said, a swiss army knife team.

If I didn't explain anything well, say it and I will