Orion_
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Posts posted by Orion_
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Good to see this proved again. Reminds me of an experiment when some guy won Prem with West Ham making all players artificially 1CA/PA and manually selecting their attributes to fit this CA/PA. Those player were also very physical - I even think he played strikerless formation due to strikers consuming a lot of CA for Acc/Pace while for other positions it was not (so he could make players with high physical attributes that were still 1CA).
On the other hand it somehow reflects current football trends where top players are not only good from the technical side of the game but are also exceptional athletes.
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8 hours ago, nie jem frytek said:
Isn't Temperament connected to how likely player is to cheat? The lower Temperament the bigger cheater? Players frustrating opposition by kicking them and diving and winning penalties (at a chance of getting booked instead) might lead to results improvement over players who never cheat. And Model Citizen having high Temperament even if it's detrimental to performance on pitch makes sense too, you wouldn't want your Model Citizen to be a cheater.
You're talking about 'Sportsmanship' not 'Temperament' but interesting point of view. I didn't think that way and removed Sportsmanship from the test to reduce processing time.
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On 26/06/2022 at 14:34, Mandy42 said:
What constitutes an "important match" ?
Games against rivals?
Knock out football (which wouldn't be covered in your domestic league sample)
Title or relegation battles?
Guess I'm suggesting that the importance of the "important match" stat is only relevant if you play any important matches. Which if the standard finishing position is mid table. Is it possible to go through a season without having enough important games for this stat to make much difference. Even if its at 20?
I'm not an expert but my bet would be games against rivals and cup games. I agree with your statement. That's one possible explanation why for Leeds Important Matches didn't matter. They we're expected to finish mid table so if they were not fighting against relegation no league games were 'Important' maybe except some historical rivals like United? I haven't checked what rivals Leeds has in the game right now.
On 25/06/2022 at 01:19, HurkaDurk69 said:Temp 20 is good because you need a high Temp score to get Model Citizen, Controversey 20 is bad
I thought about this too but according to what we have in data it looks like high temperament gives worse results. It may be just bad luck due to small sample size but even if we do not count the highest and the lowest results it's still in significant favour towards Temp1 (~51 vs 47 points).
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3 hours ago, fc.cadoni said:
Seems like a solution to the problem since I did retest and there was no interruption as in the video. But damn this shouldn't be hidden in the option I didn't even know exists before. Thank you kindly.
3 hours ago, fc.cadoni said:Also, Detail Level has an effect as well: Preferences > Detail Level
As far as I know detail level affects if league uses full match engine or quick match engine for fixtures so yes, it affects performance, but no, it shouldn't affect number of pauses during processing (at least in mu understanding).
2 hours ago, santy001 said:I do share in the underwhelming feeling with this option in network games. A checklist of sorts for what news items to stop processing for would probably be an ideal solution for single-player & network games alike.
As said (and linked) before. I already made a submission for future request to let us select what should stop processing and what should not. Fingers crossed for seeing it in next edition.
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6 hours ago, Gramm0 said:
I think I have the solution for you. Go to preferences and search for "Custom screen flow". There you can unclick "Visit news screen automaticlly". That should help you. I had the same problem, but this fixed it.
I can't find such an option in settings.
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1 hour ago, Powermonger said:
I've noticed this issue too. There really needs to be some options under Preferences for events you wish to stop or not stop for during processing.
That's exactly what I've brought up here.
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Just for those curious. I know it's a very short in-game time timespan but that's what I'm talking about (sorry for the quality - wanted to make video as small as possible). It's just ridiculous how often the games stops when there is literally nothing going on.
Also made a submission on bugs subforum.
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21 hours ago, \'Appy \'Ammer said:
My first thought was also what you're subscribing to in the social feed.
From my point of view this aspect of the game shouldn't force so much stops during the game but it's more like my 'expectation' than what's actually going on.
7 hours ago, Neil Brock said:Yeah flag it ideally with a save game from beforehand so we can roll it through and see what you saw
I'll try to breeze through ongoing season and then make some tests in the preseason. I'll try to post it this weekend. Thanks for replay.
10 hours ago, roykela said:Report it here:
https://community.sigames.com/bugtracker/football-manager-2022-bugs-forum/570_all-other-gameplay/
If it's missed by SI and not brought to the attention of the right people it'll never get fixed.
Might be too late for FM22 but the longer one waits, the bigger the chance of it being the same in FM23 as well.
I'd highly recommend reporting itThanks for suggestion. I'll try to post it there. For my defence I've made a submission in that matter but not as a bug but as a suggestion. Marked as resolved but I realize it's how most of those topics end and we don't know what's going on on the SI side so maybe it's been brought up somewhere.
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52 minutes ago, Brother Ben said:
I know about bugs subforum but as you can see it's disabled now for new submissions because they probably already abandoned FM22 and won't be releasing new patches so no need for new posts there.
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1 hour ago, Brother Ben said:
I believe you, it's just not my experience.
It might be worth bringing up as a bug
Well I thought that options like this should be tested by qa but maybe you're right. If we had a situation where tactical options like 'low crosses' basically did not change anything and had to be patched maybe other things also doesn't work at all. That's why I wanted any official response. It may be silly but maybe we should just tag someone from SI in every topic like this. @Neil Brock?
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4 hours ago, Brother Ben said:
I have to say this doesn't happen to me. Mine will fly through a week in the off season without stopping. I was going to suggest less subscriptions. I subscribe to nothing at all and regularly trim my shortlists down to the bare minimum
I've played like two days ago I had had to get through seasonal break. Oh man. I've done all the transfers, staff, contract renewals just before the season break. So I had literally NOTHING to do through the break. It took me like half an hour to get through January because I had literally stop every half a day, exactly as I've described. No messages, no incoming games, no transfers or anything that could've require my attention and breaks like every half a day with NOTHING in the inbox or whatsoever. If you don't believe me I can simulate the game to the future to another break and record it for you how irritating it is. The game requires me to click every few seconds because it can't process uninterrupted more than a in-game day.
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41 minutes ago, Brother Ben said:
I find continue game timeout is the best way to go
That's only half-solution. As said I have 'increase duration...' option enabled and in season break I recently had pause like literally every half a day even thou there were no events or no new messages. It's just absurd. It's killing you when you try doing long term saves.
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There is an option in settings 'Increase duration of processing breaks for fewer stops in play' and I have to admit I feel ZERO effect of this option. Games stops like every half a day for non meaning messages like showing me the training schedules that I set manually before or any other message that don't even have any option to response or anything.
How is this suppose to work as I genuinely don't feel any difference between having this option on and off?
Also what difference makes 'Speed to process other teams matches' because that is an option that I don't really understand.
Response from the officials would be major plus since they are always the best source of information.
Cheers.
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14 minutes ago, Chris_F said:
Yeah it’s there for existing players, but not for players I’ve created in the editor
Sorry too say this but 'it works for me'
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23 minutes ago, Chris_F said:
Hi, I’m sure this is a stupid question and I’m missing something very basic, but I’m adding a few players to the 22.4.0 database (my kids, fwiw) but I can’t for the life of me find a way to add them as ‘favourites’ to each other.
there’s no Relationships tab on the left hand menu and I can’t seem to find a way to add them in?
any help would be appreciated, cheers.
Not sure how it's not visible in your editor. It's clearly there:
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How do I assure that reserve team IS ALLOWED to reach top tier in custom database? I remember having a custom database that had this feature (probably unintentionally) and it was really good for strengthening your squad in smaller countries (basically 2 teams playing on proper level without need to loan out players).
I've found 2 options related to this and I even compared it with said database where this option was working but both of those setting are the same here (the same in both databases). So I don't really know if any of those options should be selected or not.
How can I assure that reserve teams will be allowed to reach the same tier as senior team (even in top tier)? I think currently no team in the whole country has a B team if that matters (not even u-23 team, only senior teams and u18/19).
[edit]
I've just added B team of a team from top tier to the second tier and despite assigning 'Allow B teams to be promoted from lower division' in the game it states that this team cannot be promoted due to league rules. Any idea how to bypass that?
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Is there any particular reason why some roles like Complete Forward/Roaming Playmaker/Regista/Raumdeuter etc. have certain CA threshold until player appear as suitable for them?
I get that star rating is not that important (I know it's only selected staff opinion about player) but why can't we get 'regular' rating of a player for those roles? We know that even lower league players can play those roles. They probably won't produce such a numbers as world top players but can still perform ok. For example I had some success in lower leagues playing for example Regista. Why we rob lower league experience from using those roles? I know that I can play players in those roles anyway but comparing them becomes a little bit harder when all of your squad, no matter the actual difference in player's quality, is rated 0,5 star in certain roles.
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40 minutes ago, chewbaccaloveaddiction said:
Btw I always use the pre game editor to remove all injuries for my tactics and testing saves so players can't get sick or injured anymore, that might give you better results in the future. But good job regardless
Oh. I knew that you can 'heal' all the players but I didn't know that you can prevent them from having any injuries at all. So it works like locking the attributes? Good to know for future tests.
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20 hours ago, Jimbokav1971 said:
There are a few things that jump out at me.
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Ambition of 1 has a positive difference in relation to the (All 10) control group.
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Important Matches of 20 has a negative difference in relation to the (All 10) control group.
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Det 20 bossing it as expected.
- Pressure 20 is a surprisingly high result for me.
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1 Pro & 1 Press have a significantly bigger negative impact than 1 Det. That surprises me.
- If Det 20 has the biggest positive impact, why doesn't Det 1 have the biggest negative impact?
- A possible explanation for 5. & 6. is that I notice the "standard deviation" for both 1 Pro and 1 Press is small, (5.6 & 10.0), compared to the 20 Pro & 20 Press (13.4 & 14.9). Not suggesting anything at this stage. More just thinking out loud.
- Temp 20 is a strange one, but a little like Dirtiness & Injury Proneness, is 20 a good score or is 1 a good score? Is Temp possibly like that where 20 Temp is actually a bad score and 1 Temp is a good score? (I don't know I'm thinking out loud again).
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The Important Matches 20 data also doesn't make sense to me. Relatively small difference between Imp Match 20 & Imp Match 1 groups, and indeed Imp Match 1 out-performed Imp Match 20 on 2 of the 7 samples.
- Amb 1 out-performed Amb 20 in 1 of 7 samples.
- Temp 1 out-performed Temp 20 in 4 of 7 samples.
- Consis 1 out-performed Consis 20 in 1 of 7 samples.
- Imp Match 1 out-performed Imp Match 20 in 2 of 7 samples.
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Det 1 out-performed Det20 on 1 of 7 samples.
(It's too easy & lazy to blame the small sample size. That might be it, but equally it might not).
For 1, 2, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 remember that randomness is a big factor. That's why I don't consider some results 'significant' if they don't stand out. As said in the main post - example of Pressure 20 giving on two consecutive simulations 33 and 76 points is like a joke. Imagine a situation where you theoretically set everything properly and should in most cases end the season in the middle of the league but somehow you almost get relegated, and it turns out it's not even your fault at all.
Also adding to the point 2 I think one of the reasons might be that there are not that much 'important matches' in the domestic league beside maybe some derby? It might have bigger impact in cup games/continental competition.
For your question regarding attributes not having a 'symmetrical' impact - so 1 giving significantly worse results while 20 not giving significantly best results - my guess is that either influence of those attributes is like 'logarithmic' so gives higher raise at low end but not that much impact on high end or my second theory is that it might be relative to the rest of the league. So it's not like 'absolute' attribute but relative, so the bigger the gap, the bigger the drop in performance or gain when you have advantage, but I didn't check league average so it's only a guess at this moment.
For 8 - I also had this thought that maybe Temp 20 might be reversed value - so the higher the worse - but as said it's expected to be high in some desired personalities like Model Citizen.
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Ambition of 1 has a positive difference in relation to the (All 10) control group.
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5 hours ago, chewbaccaloveaddiction said:
Just to be clear, I'm not saying you should remove results.
To be honest I was considering removing both the best and the worst result for each sample but I thought that being left with just 5 measurements is a little bit too small. Maybe next time I'll do it that way.
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6 hours ago, Thebaker said:
intesresting analysis. Surprised that poor professionalism had more impact than poor determination. Pressure is the hidden attribute i never consider but clearly should do.
Low professionalism had biggest negative impact on player's performance in my previous experiment with Liverpool in FM21 (linked in first post) so I expected it to be also crucial here. Not gonna lie Pressure surprised me and probably many other people by a lot.
That's why it's interesting to perform some of those experiments. They sometimes bring amazing, unexpected results.
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4 hours ago, chewbaccaloveaddiction said:
Great experiment, I would have expected consistency to be more important.
Yep. On one hand 10 points difference is something that makes a change, on the other hand group with 10 was almost in the middle between 1 and 20 results. Funny thing is that consistency 20 had statistically almost double the results spread than consistency 1.
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Thank you. Single simulation took around 20 minutes so it was good opportunity to read some books while game was running in the background.
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- Popular Post
- Popular Post
1. Introduction
In this experiment we will check impact of selected hidden attributes and Determination on team performance in a domestic league measured by team's points earned over the course of a season. This experiment is a continuation and improvement of my previous research of that case made in FM21 that can be viewed here.
2. Game setup and testing environment
In this experiment I've decided to load only 1 playable league that was English Premier League. The team of my choice was Leeds United. The idea to take Leeds came from one of the comments about my previous experiment where I've chosen Liverpool FC, that their good and best performance was indistinguishable simply because the margin of error at the high end of the points gained was very little and the team just couldn't perform better. I've checked the multiple simulations that Knap made to check his tactics and it turned out that Leeds is a team that in most cases ends up somewhere mid table. This results in a room for potential positive and negative impact of attributes change to be still visible in results. Other things that were set for the experiment:
- all first team players attributes that were tested (Ambition, Pressure, Professionalism, Temperament, Consistency, Important Matches and Determination) were set using in game editor and then their attributes were locked preventing their changes throughout experiment
- attributes were set to default, all 10's (kind of control group - all the tested attributes, not all the player's attributes), selected attribute set as 1 (low), selected attribute set as 20 (high)
- option preventing player manager to be sacked was enabled
- individual and team training was designated to assistant manager
- match squad selection was left to assistant manager
- all contract and transfer features were designated to player manager so there was no players coming in or out during the test
- first transfer window was disabled to reduce personal shuffle in other teams in the league
- testing time was 1 season (earliest possible starting date in England ; ending date just after the last fixture of the season)
- only 1 playable league was enabled (English Premier League) and all competition that Leeds United was not participate match details was set to 'None' to reduce processing time
- tactic that was used in all simulations was @knap's KASHMIR 451 P104 EC FA (THP93)
- game version was 22.4.1
- database version was default 22.4.0 database update
As our outcome value we will use amount of points that team gathered in domestic league during the whole season. Final result is shown as average number of points for that data set and as additional feature there will be indicator to show the spread of points gained within certain data set.
Every attribute set was simulated 7 times. Attributes sets that were tested:
- Default [Ambition - 12,88 ; Pressure - 12,68 ; Professionalism - 14,08 ; Temperament - 12,36 ; Consistency - 11,48 ; Important Matches - 12 ; Determination 14,16] - default players attribute values (numbers in brackets are first team average)
- All 10 - control group
- Ambition 1
- Ambition 20
- Pressure 1
- Pressure 20
- Professionalism 1
- Professionalism 20
- Temperament 1
- Temperament 20
- Consistency 1
- Consistency 20
- Important Matches 1
- Important Matches 20
- Determination 1
- Determination 20
3. Results
3.1 Overall results in a table
3.2 Average domestic league points (result spread is the lowest and the highest number of points in single simulation for certain attribute value)
3.3 Results difference compared to All 10 (control group)
4. Analysis
The first thing that is clearly visible is almost 50% drop in performance for very low Pressure and Professionalism values. On the other hand positive difference for high end values for those attributes is not that significant (5,6% and 10,18%). In general we can observe that every single attribute produced lower result when set to 1 when compared to control group. This shows that each tested attribute influences player's performance on the pitch. For the high end values the highest team improvement occurred for Determination, Pressure and Consistency (12,27%, 10,18% and 9,16% respectively). High Ambition and Important Matches did not produce significantly better results than control group but when those attributes were set to low the performance drop was visible (-9,41% and -6,36%). The most interesting result was Temperament that when set to high produced significantly lower result than low value (-8,91% compared to -15,52%).
5. Conclusion and free thoughts
Experiment showed that players should have at least medium range values for Pressure and Professionalism otherwise their negative impact on player's performance is significant. The positive impact of all of the tested attributes was much lower for high values than the negative impact for low values (except Temperament). High Temperament value resulting in a worse outcome than low temperament value might indicate that very high value for this attribute is not desired. However this observation requires further investigation because it's requirement for some player's personalities considered as desired and positive like Model Citizen/Professional or Spirited might indicate that this attribute should be considered as positive.
It is unclear whether 10 is an absolute neutral value or it's relative on the league average which was not calculated in this experiment. This also applies to checking if performance drop due to low Pressure/Professionalism would still be this high in a league with different average value for those attributes.
There was no clear tendency for final number of points spread within certain attributes data sets. Very interesting factor was high spread of result between certain seasons within the same data set - for example for 20 Pressure there was final result of 33 points and 76 points in a two consecutive simulations. There were no investigation for any specific reason behind that big gap between results (like for example injury of key player) but it's worth noticing that number of simulations for future tests should be as high as possible due to significant spread of end results within the same datasets.
Some players despite having 1 or 20 in Important Matches and Consistency did not show this as Pros/Cons indicator in scouting/coaching report even after full season. It behaved the same way every time for the same players in both cases, so for high/low value and both for consistency/important matches. Reason is unknown but is worth noticing in terms of scouting for players with certain values of those hidden attributes that cannot be obtained in any other way without the editor or 3rd party tools.
I hope this experiment clarified some questions and also revealed some unexpected aspects of attributes. Any questions or comments are welcomed.
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(It's too easy & lazy to blame the small sample size. That might be it, but equally it might not).
[FM22] [Experiment] Influence of selected hidden attributes and Determination on team performance in domestic league
in Challenges, Sign-Ups & Experiments
Posted
It's hard to tell since I haven't checked it for value 15 but as you can see in the graph when comparing the control group of 'all 10s' with Pressure 1 there was almost -50% drop in points and similar value for the 1 Professionalism while 20 Pressure and Professionalism had +10% and +5% respectively impact on points gain so general rule of thumb I'd say that at least for top 5 leagues the 'optimal minimum' would be said 10 and everything above this doesn't have that much of an impact on points gained.
If you play in smaller leagues/countries it would require additional testing but my assumption would be that the bar is lower there - just like with any other attributes. I can't say for sure simply because we are lacking for example a distribution of Pressure and Professionalism among players in different leagues but again if we assume that the distribution of those attributes follows the difference in 'visible attributes' - so in better leagues the hidden attributes have also on average higher values. Again sorry to say that it's all assumptions and 'ifs' but sadly we can't rely on any data in this matter due to lack of testing.
Attributes in general mean anything in relation to your opposition so it all comes to your league level.