[SFraser's Training Schedules for FM10]

SFraser,

I just thought I'd post the attributes I had arrived at independently from your efforts. These are based on the attributes which appear in each category on the Training > Attributes > Training Category screen.

Goalkeepers (36 attributes in each Goalkeeper's Profile screen):

Strength (3): Natural Fitness, Stamina, Strength

Aerobic (6): Acceleration, Agility, Balance, Jumping, Pace, Reflexes

Goalkeeping (7): Aerial Ability, Handling, Kicking, Throwing, One On Ones, Concentration, Composure

Tactics (6): Anticipation, Decisions, Positioning, Command Of Area, Communication, Rushing Out

Ball Control (2): First Touch, Technique

Defending (0): -

Attacking (0): -

Shooting (0): -

Set Pieces (1): Free Kick Taking

Untrainable/Unassigned (12): Eccentricity, Penalty Taking, Tendency To Punch, Aggression, Bravery, Determination, Influence, Work Rate, Teamwork, Off The Ball, Flair, Creativity

Technique is highlighted because it appears in the Training Category Screen but not in the Player Profile screen. The total here is 37, an obvious discrepancy!

Outfield Players (36 attributes in each Outfield Player's Profile screen):

Strength (4): Work Rate, Natural Fitness, Stamina, Strength

Aerobic (6): Acceleration, Agility, Balance, Jumping, Pace, Reflexes

Goalkeeping (0): -

Tactics (5): Anticipation, Decisions, Off The Ball, Positioning, Teamwork

Ball Control (5): Dribbling, First Touch, Flair, Heading, Technique

Defending (3): Marking, Tackling, Concentration

Attacking (2): Passing, Creativity

Shooting (3): Finishing, Long Shots, Composure

Set Pieces (5): Corners, Crossing, Free Kick Taking, Long Throws, Penalty Taking

Untrainable/Unassigned (4): Aggresion, Bravery, Determination, Influence

Reflexes is highlighted because it appears in the Training Category Screen but not in the Player Profile screen. The total here is 37, another discrepancy!

I would also like to propose a new method for the ongoing development of these schedules, which I alluded to in post #78 (pg. 1), that will most probably save you a considerable amount of time.

Once a Baseline has been agreed then each schedule you design can be described by the Focus you wish to give each category. Let me give an example of what I mean:

Baseline (Outfield Players):

STR: 4

AER: 5 (I'm choosing to omit Reflexes here)

GK: 0

TAC: 5

BAL: 5

DEF: 3

ATT: 2

SHO: 3

SET: 5

Focus (this is an example of SFraser's current Veteran MC schedule):

STR: 4

AER: 2

GK: 0

TAC: 3

BAL: 3

DEF: 3

ATT: 2

SHO: 2

SET: 0

Multiplying the Baseline by the Focus gives you the training schedule (where no.s = slider notches) i.e:

STR: 16

AER: 10

GK: 0

TAC: 15

BAL: 15

DEF: 9

ATT: 4

SHO: 6

SET: 0

I see three advantages for this approach:

I think this methodology would provide a much easier route for you to present your knowledge as a simple table of Focus values rather than releasing a full set of pre-prepared schedules each time.

This standardised platform would allow others to post their training schedule revisons and results clearly for all to understand.

The community would benefit also from much more frequent updates of your unrivalled understanding of training.

[SFraser's Training Schedules for FM10]

Are you sure, as the game says that Agility is part of the Aerobic category, if not were does he agility fit in?

I think SFraser meant Reflexes not Agility. I believe that Reflexes are not counted for outfield players, only for goalkeepers.

SFraser, interesting to read that Natural Fitness is not counted. Does this mean it is not training affected at all and does it increase/decline with age? Also, could you let me know how you came to know that Flair is a non-trainable attribute?

If there is any support you need with the new set of schedules then please consider me available.

[SFraser's Training Schedules for FM10]

sorry can someone break it down for me in brams very thick guide?

do i put my older say 30 plus players on veteran

say the lads between 25 and 30 on first team

and the others on developing

or am i missing the trick?

Veteran is for players past their peak and starting to decline physically (usually this is around 30 as you say)

First Team is for players who play in the majority of your games and therefore cannot handle such high training workloads in addition to their playing demands. Has less to do with age and is more about preventing overexertion. This links in with the points made in my previous post.

Development is for young players who may have just earned a full-time contract, who still have a lot of improving to do in order to be ready for first team football. They need to work harder, hence the higher workloads, to ensure they make the grade.

[SFraser's Training Schedules for FM10]

I have 3 fitness coach with 20 at fitness, all world class, and 4 stars at training strength and aerobic.

I have 5 physio with 20 at physiotherapy, 1 with 19, all national reputation.

I'm sorry but I don't know what is wrong here ProZone. :confused:

I agree with TheTiger's advice.

In addition, make sure you make use of the option to give players rest days, especially after a match if they have a very low condition %.

It makes sense that if you want your players to train hard then you need to make sure they are in good condition to do so. To ensure this, make sure you rotate your squad sufficiently (SFraser has specifically stated he does this) and use rest days to overcome any short-term condition problems.

It is basically the same approach that you would normally take for matches. You wouldn't normally play a player at 85% condition so make sure you apply the same philosophy to training too and I'm sure your injury problems will improve.

I think it's interesting to note SFraser's approach to squad management in addition to using these schedules. High workloads will naturally cause problems if you're playing the same 11 players every game but not if you continually manage your players, particularly their condition, correctly

[SFraser's Training Schedules for FM10]

I'd just like to comment on the growing swell of people reporting injuries with these schedules.

It is sensible to assume that increased Physical training carries an increased risk of injury, it even says so in the manual. But it is also sensible to assume that if you are demanding high Physical training intensities then you need to ensure you have good coaches and good physios to minimise the risk of injury. It is not a isolated problem with these schedules per se, nor is there a specific notch number below which injuries will not occur.

If you are asking players to train hard physically then make sure you provide them with top quality training and recovery support staff accordingly. Maximise your options for player development, don't limit them!

[SFraser's Training Schedules for FM10]

There is still 1 thing I am unsure of, take a look at this player;

How would you train someone like that? I've found the further you go into the game you find quite a few youths with extremely good stats like the above. But what sort of things should be focusing on as he is still young.

I'd definitely look to boost his Natural Fitness and Stamina through Strength training. Increased Natural Fitness will aid his recovery between matches and when the inevitable decline in Physical attributes occurs (albeit in around 9 years time) then he will hopefully still have sufficient Stamina to last a full match per week or so.

I would look to balance his schedule out and then add as much focus to the Strength category as you dare.

By the way, my idea of 'balance' is when all the training arrows look the same, whether they're pointing up or down. The former would be balanced improvement, the latter balanced decline. You could also achieve balanced maintenance where all categories display -. The actual notch positions for balance will almost certainly be unique to each player. I'm eagerly waiting to hear the response you get from SI regarding these displays to confirm whether this interpretation is correct or not.

[SFraser's Training Schedules for FM10]

[size=3]Weighing    GK    DR/L    WBR/L    SW    DC    DMC    MC    AMC    MR/L    AMR/L    ST[/size]
[size=3]Strength    6    8    8    7    9    10    9    9    8    8    8[/size]
[size=3]Aerobic        17    15    14    16    17    14    14    16    16    18    21[/size]
[size=3]Goalkeeping    20    0    0    0    0    0    0    0    0    0    0[/size]
[size=3]Tactics        20    14    13    14    13    12    12    13    10    10    12[/size]
[size=3]Ball control    3    7    9    9    8    9    9    10    10    11    14[/size]
[size=3]Defending    4    11    8    8    12    8    6    5    5    5    4[/size]
[size=3]Attacking    2    4    5    5    3    7    8    8    6    5    4[/size]
[size=3]Shooting    2    4    4    5    4    7    8    9    7    7    10[/size]
[size=3]Set pieces    0    6    7    5    5    5    5    5    8    8    6[/size]
[size=3]NOTCHES        74    69    68    69    71    72    71    75    70    72    79[/size]

SFraser has not made any specific account of attribute weighting in his schedules and in this thread.

What SFraser has put forward is a baseline (the 'Test' schedule) where each category contains 1 training unit. The unit (or 'core' number of slider clicks) for each category is simply equal to the number of attributes that category trains.

SFraser then implements added focus in the key areas for each position.

So, as an example, for a DC you may want to train Defending by 3 units, Tactics by 3 units, Aerobic by 4 units and leave all other training categories at 1 unit. This is the provision of focus for the DC position.

Thus, the training problem is broken down into a very easy-to-understand format. For each training category:

unit x focus = slider position

To reiterate, there is no specific account of attribute weightings in SFraser's schedules. There is only the added focus that he wishes his players to put into their development, based on their position.

I say specific because arguably there is a slight exception relating to the physical training categories, Strength and Aerobic. The attributes contained within these two categories are well known to decline at an increasing rate with increasing age. This effect may be interpreted as a programmed increase in the attribute weightings, if it helps you to conceptualise things in this way. You will no doubt have noticed that SFraser has added additional focus to the strength category in all of the Veteran schedules to compensate for this effect and try to extend the playing careers of older players for as long as possible. In this sense he is accounting for the weigthings of the Physical attributes.

Otherwise, you are entirely correct to point out that each attribute is weighted in the game. There is convincing evidence in these forums that all weightings which exist in the game code relate to individual attributes rather than training categories as your table suggests. Unfortunately, much effort has gone into working out what the weightings are and has not provided a conclusion. Such effort was/is extremely time consuming and it is also extremely difficult to be sure of the accuracy. There is also no clear vision on how such precise and detailed information would be used to construct sensible, manageable training schedules either and is, in my opinion, a training schedule development dead-end.

[SFraser's Training Schedules for FM10]

Just a quickie regarding match events and attribute changes. I've noticed if you fine someone after they've received a red card their aggression stat goes down. I had Steven Taylor drop from aggression 18 to 15 in one season because he kept getting sent off!

Well spotted. I see this too. However, this is slightly different in that Aggression is not a trainable attribute (like Bravery and Influence) so this is somewhat outside of the realm of these schedules I would say.

Free Kick Taking on the other hand is more interesting as it can suddenly jump due to match events but it is also a trainable attribute. SFraser I believe is trying to find the details from any evidence posted in here to be able to distinguish the two influences clearly.

[SFraser's Training Schedules for FM10]

Why does reflexes get counted in aerobic for outfield players when it is a pure GK attribute?

All other GK specific attributes do not get counted if we go by your attribute per category volumes (and the UI discounting composure/concentration) so was wondering if you'd checked reflexes is definately a factor for outfield aerobic training

Furthermore, can goalkeepers not train attacking given passing/creativity are key for sweeper keepers (again the ui doesn't display it...)

Well spotted, I noticed this too. I don't know the answer to be honest. My suspicion is that it doesn't get trained for outfield players and therefore the Aerobics category unit would be 5 instead of 6.

Another point to tidy up with SI perhaps now that Cleon has found a contact ??

Also for Goalkeeper schedules, the Set Piece category has 1 attribute in there (Free Kick Taking) which SFraser appears to have ommited from his ratios. Probably because it's useless. Could you confirm SFraser?

[SFraser's Training Schedules for FM10]

To be fair though I remain unconvinced by my own explanation of the Training Arrows. The Training Arrows do not directly correspond to anything easily observed though there are similarities and patterns, and this would suggest that the Training Arrows describe something different and more complex than the rest of the Training information, including attributes changes.

For example the pattern of the Training Arrows follows the same pattern as Training Progress from month to month, but crucially the magnitude of Progress change is not replicated exactly in the Training Arrows. An attacking player with a small increase in Tactics Progress, a negligable increase in Defending Progress and a large increase in Ball Control Progress may show identical low magnitude green Training Arrows. This suggests that the Training Arrows take into consideration Position Attribute weight while Training Progress does not.

It's great to know what the differences between two displays are, but if you don't know exactly what either display is actually showing then knowing the difference between them is of very little use.

I was under the impression the training arrows represented weekly improvements rather than monthly when you view the schedules. Much like training on FML.

Correct Cleon. The difference may simply lie in the fact that Training Arrows are updated weekly whereas Training Progress is updated monthly. Training Arrows may therefore be a 'real-time' progression monitor whereas the Training Progress graph is a more of progression histogram.

This would make sense but I, like most people I would imagine, would prefer to read this in a game manual rather than be left to make guesses.

Training Arrows are certainly the most responsive of the two as can be seen when players pick up injuries etc.

Now, if we consider the response times of all three training performance displays then there is perhaps also a correlation between the Training Arrows and the Training Levels graph for which both respond on a weekly basis?

Edit:

SFraser, have you ever tried adding the effects of the Training Arrows each week over a monthly period to see if the sum equals the effect in the Training Progress graph?

[SFraser's Training Schedules for FM10]

Sounds like we both had the same problems with training. I've finally got me head around the working now and feel I'm better placed to comment and create my own schedules. Before I got SFraser's saved game I was a bit baffled by all the different ratio's and trying to understand them. Plus the fact I've read all the training threads but still couldn't see how it all fitted in. The save game notes help me understand a lot and it all seemed to click for me once I'd seen that.

At least you're decent with tactics!

[SFraser's Training Schedules for FM10]

I've not really put any effort into schedules but in the last week I've had a crash course from SFraser and have learned a lot. I'm using the same base ones as he has used. But I've made some changes to them now to get the best out of my players. I'll post the ratio's and results up after a season maybe 2. I'm taking my time with them and been really detailed in watching the changes and noting why its happening. Once I'm done I'll post though

Good man

Just to add that I'm watching these intently now and will add what I can to this thread. I tend to play the game slowly though so it will most likely be continuous updates from me rather than end-of-season.

I've held off starting a proper career game for so long because I just couldn't get my head around training and was totally fed-up with watching attributes decrease and not understanding why or seeing DCs improve their Set Pieces and not their Defending skills. I too have had the benefit recently of SFraser's help recently and now I'm really looking forward to getting stuck into the game!

[SFraser's Training Schedules for FM10]

You already have that information in the Notes section of the savegame I sent you.

I did send you a link to my savegame right? I thought I did but I can't remember for sure.

Really - that's great. Yeah I have it but I would have never found the info. mind without you telling me.

Cheers

By the way, having read the volumes of CA testing, attribute ratio testing etc. that have been done and slowly realising the complication that those approaches would have meant for designing schedules I was always quite suspicious of the fact that there may be a tiny piece of the puzzle which we were all missing that would make the understanding of training easier. Also, I never really understood what the training arrows were telling me exactly, other than the red ones were bad and the green ones were good.

I think the notches to attributes match is the missing piece. These may not be 100% accurate when position and age are considered as you rightly mention, but as a first approximation the results look very promising. Then perhaps, the training arrows exist to guide us through the fine-tuning of a schedule to the specific characteristics of an individual.

Finding the elusive 'balance' in a schedule can be achieved through monitoring and subsequent matching of the arrows when a player is both undergoing improvement or decline (due to age or injury).

Excellent work and please keep it going!

[SFraser's Training Schedules for FM10]

@ SFraser

For the 8 schedule types (GK through ST) what are the category ratios you have used? By this I mean the number of times you multiply each category's 'Test' position.

For example, your DC Vidic example is something like (STR:AER:TAC:BAL:dEF:ATT:SHO:SET) 3:3:4:3:4:3:3:0.

If you have this information to hand and it's not too much trouble would you mind including it here to save me the time in reverse-engineering your schedules.

@ Cleon

Similarly, would you also mind posting the category ratios you would assign to each position? Having read your many threads I know you have a good grasp of the key attributes per position and I would like to know your interpretation by way of comparison.

[SFraser's Training Schedules for FM10]

Another quality post