[Johan Cruyff's 3-4-3 Diamond (Very Fluid)]

Another sign of the strength of this tactic, my youth teams.

Without any in game adjustments, though I made a lot of youth signings, we had a phenomenal year. I did try to put the best lineups out there, but that was all of my involvement.

U21s

Won the U21 Cup. Outscored opponents 19-2 in 5 games, including an 8-0 quarterfinal win over Leeds

Tied for 2nd with United in the North division, 13-5 with 4 draws, 43 goals, 28 allowed. Most goals, 3rd fewest allowed.

U18s

City was the cream of the crop here with 56 points, but we finished 3rd, in the North, a point behind United. 11-4, 7 draws. 38 goals (2nd most) 23 allowed (3rd best).

Lost to City 2-0 in the U18s Cup, bad draw.

Finished second in the Group A competition (the top 4 in each of the 12 team north and south groups). 4-1 with 2 draws, finished 2 points behind City (5-1, 1 draw). Scored the most goals (15) and allowed the least (5).

Finally, we won the U19 Champions Cup! This was a combination of both teams since the age requirements were different.

4-0, 2 draws in the group stage 10 for, 5 against.

Then we beat Shakhtar 3-1, Leverkusen 5-2 to get to the semi. These are single leg ties, not two leg.

I switched the tactic to an experimental one for the semis - I dropped the two wingers back to Wing Backs with Complete Wing Back attack. We hadn't practiced it all year. I am thinking of using this in the Europa League Final against Manchester United.

We beat Club Brugge 4-0, outshot them 23-3, 10-0 on target and 51% possession. The WBL scored 2 of the goals. Brugge played a 4-1-2-3 DM Wide.

In the Finals we beat Real Madrid 2-0, outshot them 15-4, 7-2 on target, 52% possession. Madrid played a flat 4-4-2.

For the last game of the season, since we are now locked into 5th, I plan to try this with the Wing Backs against Newcastle to see how it goes. I will be playing a super weak lineup, since the Europa League Final is just 3 days later.

[Johan Cruyff's 3-4-3 Diamond (Very Fluid)]

A little background before I get into the big question, as I've turned out a defensive variant of this that seems promising against the 4-2-3-1 Wide.

So it's getting late in the year, and a deep run in the FA Cup (lost in the semi) and the Europa League (just qualified for the Final) along with a bunch of injuries, have us wearing down like we did in December. We had an incredible run from January though, we went 15-0-2 (2 draws) over a 17 game stretch from January 7 through April 20. We did not give up a goal in 6 consecutive Europa League games.

Of course, it's a top heavy EPL, a 5-team race for four spots. And Arsenal and Tottenham, 3-4 were also refusing to lose. Last year, I finished second with 77 points to Tottenham's 78 to win the league. This year, with 2 matches to go, it's 80-80-77-73-70, of course, we have the 70.

Anyway, everyone has decided to play a 4-2-3-1 Wide against me now. Wolfsburg played a 4-4-2 in the first leg 1-0 loss in the Europa league semis, but for the second leg, even they showed up with a 4-2-3-1 Wide. Leicester used the same formation to beat me 1-0 in the FA Cup semi. Manchester United hammered me 4-0 in a league game that might cost me playing the Champions League for 2017-18.

We scored in the second minute of the second leg away match, so I relaxed. But 10 minutes in, Wolfsburg already had 3 clear cut chances, and I said enough.

I switched the mentality to defensive. Turned off pass into space and turned on retain possession. This helped stabilize things. But then early in the second half, they scored on a corner. After subbing Lukaku and Stones out at halftime (fixture congestion sucks) and like 5 minutes in they went from having 2 corners in the game to 9. So I took it one step further.

I dropped the DLP(d) back to DM, same role and duty. Took Barkley from AM(a) back to MC, with Roaming Playmaker Support duty.

From there we hammered them. Niassé scored in the 65th minute and Cleverley tapped one home in the 76th.

My question is this ... does this make sense theoretically? Did I get lucky, or can this work long-term as an alternative to the 4-2-3-1 Wide problem? This is important as ... we are going to be playing Manchester United again - in the Europa League Final, with the prize being Champions League play for 2017-18.

[Johan Cruyff's 3-4-3 Diamond (Very Fluid)]

29 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

 

I need to think about it and experiment a little bit more.

I'd certainly use the same style of play but possibly switch to a 4-man defence. Early days. Not 100% sure.

Thanks!

[Johan Cruyff's 3-4-3 Diamond (Very Fluid)]

Quote

3-man defence is struggling more against the 3-man attack variants: 4-3-3 / 4-5-1 and 4-2-3-1 in particular. I'm using a 4-1-4-1 as an alternative shape. I'd like to use 4-3-3, if the Half-Back role would work.

So there really is no salvaging it against the 4-2-3-1? This is the formation that caused me the most trouble too, especially when a good team is running it. So if the opponent lines up that way just switch to something else? Understandable, but I was hoping to be able to figure something out. I really like the way this plays otherwise.

[Johan Cruyff's 3-4-3 Diamond (Very Fluid)]

Quote

I'd like to use 4-3-3, if the Half-Back role would work.

What is broken about it? Why doesn't it work?

[Johan Cruyff's 3-4-3 Diamond (Very Fluid)]

Well, I guess we are going to find out how important Baines really is. He's out for 7-8 months with damaged cruciate ligaments in the 2nd leg of a Europa League first knockout round tie with Club Brugge. We won the first on the road 2-1 and dominated the second 2-0 (outshot them 23-3). Ugh. See him next September/October (EDIT - now he's considering retiring, ugh). He became my captain too after we sold off Jagielka. Damnit.

Welcome to the big-time Christian Pulisic.

EDIT: Scratch that. I think I'm going to take the competent Lewis Cook and train him up as the left wing. His work rate, positioning, determination and anticipation are all better. As are his pace and stamina. Pulisic isn't quite ready yet.

[Johan Cruyff's 3-4-3 Diamond (Very Fluid)]

Well, we are hanging in there. We beat QPR in a bit of a scary game, 2-1. They played a narrow 4-3-3. So we weren't exposed to the wing play that's become a problem. They scored a goal when the defense in the middle broke down. But Chancel Mbemba is out injured, Funes Mori is recovering from injury, so I'm playing Linus Walhqvist, another youngster back there a lot, with Funes Mori subbing late.

Then the big game at home with Arsenal. A great team playing the dreaded 4-1-2-3 Wide with a DM. We scored 3 minutes into the game, but then gave up a goal 3 minutes later. It was not from the wing. Player was tackled at the top left of the box and charging striker picked up the loose ball and punched it with 4 of my guys in the box not in the way of the ball. Barkley had to leave the game a little later with a dead leg, so Pulisic came on, but having him in there as a AM doesn't expose the defense like when I have to put him on the wing.

I went back to the counter, hi-tempo, direct at that point, and it seemed to work. We ended up getting a freak goal mid-way through the second half, kind of similar, Arsenal defended went for the tackle, kicked the ball into his own post and Lukaku was there to fire the rebound home.

We probably deserved a draw, outshot them 14-11, 8 on target to 5, we each had 3 clear cut chances and we had 3 half chances to their 2. We held possession well too, won that 55-45.

I guess the key is making sure that Besic, Baines and Coleman play as much as possible. Pulisic is tutoring with McCarthy now, so hopefully that helps out his work rate. Will that develop? He's only 18 years old, as is Schaub so if that 13 can become a 16 or 17 I'll be happy. If not, I'll have to find another young winger or two. Baines and Coleman still have a few years left.

Another huge thing I've noticed. I signed Gerónimo Rulli to be my goalie, because it was by far Everton's most glaring weakness. He has been nothing short of brilliant. The key being his 19 One-On-Ones rating. I think this is a must in this system, because with the high line, no matter how good the back three, good teams will break free from time to time. He is just brilliant on these.

[Johan Cruyff's 3-4-3 Diamond (Very Fluid)]

I am playing FM16 axehan1.

[Johan Cruyff's 3-4-3 Diamond (Very Fluid)]

Wow! So I found the stat team goals allowed per 90 minutes and team goals conceded per 90 minutes. By far, not even close, the best player on the team with any reasonable amount of playing time is Besic. We only concede .70 goals per 90 minutes with him on the field, and that's over 14 starts and 10 sub appearances. With Cook on the field it's double, 1.42. With Coleman and Baines on the field we score 2.03 and 1.95, respectively, allowing .99 and 1.09. But with Schaub and Pulisic on the field it's .81 scored and 1.85 allowed, and 1.12 - 1.64, we are getting killed. Interesting.

 

[Johan Cruyff's 3-4-3 Diamond (Very Fluid)]

Thanks!

I feel like it has stabilized some. Coleman and Baines have been great! I don't think they are the problem. They are both scoring and assisting a lot and are almost always amongst my top rated players. Lukaku and Barkely are also great as the CF/AM duo, although I think maybe Lukaku isn't being utlilized to his full potential. I've taught him plays with back to goal.

Coleman has 5 goals and 5 assists in 18 starts (4 times he subbed). Baines has 6 goals and 9 assists in 22 (3 subs) games.

Goals per 90 minutes: Niassé .88 (he doesn't play a ton, 5 goals in 511 minutes), Lukaku .57, Barkley .45, Schaub .35 (6 starts, 13 subs), Coleman .27, Baines .27, Cleverley (MCL, the gets forward one) .14, Cook .13

Assists per 90 minutes: Baines .41, Barkley .36, Cleverley .32, Mirallas .30, Coleman .27, Schaub .23, Lukaku .16, Cook .06.

Baines and Coleman are two of my 3 best players by rating too, 7.80 and 7.59. Barkley is at 7.77, Cleverley 7.52. I mean I guess Baines and Coleman could be slacking on defense. It's hard to tell just from watching. Coleman has 34 mistakes in 1642, none have led to goals. Baines has made 31 mistakes in 2075 minutes, none have led to goals either.

Here's something, I am playing City, who is a great team playing a 4-1-4-1 with a DM against me. We tied them 0-0 early in the year, played them tough January 2 but lost 1-0.

Now it's January 28 and we drew them at home in the FA Cup. We scored early and were up 1-0, but I noticed my players just weren't fast enough to get to the passes, a City guy would beat us to the ball, because they are great and fast. so I turned off pass into space, turned on retain possession, and it seemed to work a little better. But I had 12 shots and only 2 on target by early in the second half.

So then I switched to Counter, more direct passing, higher tempo. I think this gave me the space I needed (thanks for drilling in this concept Cleon!). We ended up outshooting them 19-8, 5 on target to 4, we each had 1 clear cut chance, but I had 5 half chances to their 2. We ended up with 59% possession and won 2-1. Lukaku scored the winner with a great shot from top of the box.

So maybe I've stabilized it. Perhaps the falling apart in December was just because we were exhausted from the Champions League and fixture congestion around Boxing Day and New Year's - Baines and Coleman were sitting out too much? We've won 5 in a row now, outscoring out opponents 13-3. But the other games were against West Brom, Cardiff, Villa and West Ham, so I wasn't all that convinced. Beating City in the FA Cup 2-1, that was huge.

We'll see how it goes. QPR on the short turnaround in 3 days, and then a huge game with Arsenal in a week. I guess I'll know a lot more about the team then.

I'll add, looking back through, every single loss, except for the 5-3 Tottenham loss has come when we had less than a full week's rest. And Coleman was injured, Besic also missed the game for picking up his 5th yellow. Mirallas and Cook played and we gave up more goals than we have all year.

I wish I could sell Mirallas, he's worth $34.5mm, and makes $5.45mm a year, but no one wants him. He just doesn't really fit here.

[Johan Cruyff's 3-4-3 Diamond (Very Fluid)]

Also in the Newcastle game, a 4-2 loss, Baines and Coleman played, with Cook in the middle as the DLPD. They all had decent ratings for the game, the back three of Stones and Funes Mori wide and Galloway in the center were 6.5, 6.6 and 6.4 rated. But we gave up two goal after subbing Funes Mori in the 76th minute with Linus Wahlqvist, a DC with 14 pace and marking, 13 positioning, tackling and work rate. Another kid that I'm trying to build up experience for, and Funes Mori was pretty gassed late, so I was trying to preserve the 2-2 draw. Whoops.

[Johan Cruyff's 3-4-3 Diamond (Very Fluid)]

3 hours ago, Anaconda Vice said:

Used this system for 5 seasons so hopefully I can help you.

Does your DLP (D) have stays back at all times?

Who are your wide players, work rates?

Thanks!

So my choices for DLP(D) are:

Muhamed Besic, Lewis Cook and James McCarthy. I usually use McCarthy as the MCR though. I make him the less aggressive MC, Cleverley is the more aggressive, gets forward one. None of them has stays back at all times. The team seems to play much better defensively when Besic plays, he has a 17 work rate, 15 for positioning, 16 marking and 17 tackling. His main issue is all of the yellow cards.

Cook has runs with the ball through the center, Besic runs with the ball often, McCarthy doesn't have any related PPMs (just short simple passes and refrains from taking long shots).

My wide players are typically Baines and Coleman. Baines has a work rate of 17, and so does Coleman.

When they are being rested, I use Christian Pulisic (13 but he's young and I'm squad building some), Louis Schaub (also 13, also young) and Kevin Mirallas (11).

Looking back at the 'disaster games', against Chelsea, Pulisic and Schaub started on the wings (4-1 loss), and Cook was the DLPD. Cook had a 5.9 rating, Pulisic a 6.8 and Schaub an 8.7 (had an assist).

Against Spurs (the 5-3 loss), Mbemba had a 4.7 rating as the DCC (I use BPD roles for the outside DCs), and Baines and Mirallas started the game, as did Cook (Besic was out for yellow cards). The big issues were on Mirallas' side, that was the side Mbemba kept trying to cover for and pulling himself out of position.

The 4-2-3-1 Wide formations with 3 AMs seem to be giving me the most trouble right now. It's only really an issue when they get the ball down the wing into the final third, in transition we play ok. But once they are down in the final third, it just seems really easy to break me down with the ball coming in from either wing.

Thanks again for the help!

[Johan Cruyff's 3-4-3 Diamond (Very Fluid)]

On 10/22/2016 at 16:22, axehan1 said:

Defenders with pace /acceleration above 15 should stop you getting caught out with those long balls over the top.

Thanks, I've got that problem solved already. Signing fast Mbemba and dropping Jagielka did the trick there. It's not the long balls over the top that are the problem. It's that

Quote

The defence will shift over to whatever flank is being attacked, leaving gaps in the centre as 1 CB is pulled over to the attacker, and the other 2 CB's shift over. Often see a midfield runner or the opposite winger come running through the centre.

This is the big issue. I agree, big fast defenders have definitely solved the long-ball over the top problem. It's this other problem that is suddenly killing me. I just have no idea of how to fix it.

[Johan Cruyff's 3-4-3 Diamond (Very Fluid)]

On 5/23/2016 at 09:59, swisso said:

Excellent thread Ö-zil-to-the-Arsenal!, I've adopted the 3-6-1 for use with Ajax and it's working very well domestically.

I'd developed a 4-2-3-1-Wide and we had incredible amounts of possession without doing much with it, mostly because of a low tempo and restrictive shape and passing options. So i binned the Retain Possession, Work Ball and Low Tempo TI's and moved to a highly flexible shape with a 5 man midfield and trusted the intelligent players to know where to sit. It's worked wonders domestically, nobody can hold a candle to us and it's allowed me to risk youngsters much sooner!

My only trouble is, we don't fare so well against European giants. Especially against teams employing an AML and AMR. The defence will shift over to whatever flank is being attacked, leaving gaps in the centre as 1 CB is pulled over to the attacker, and the other 2 CB's shift over. Often see a midfield runner or the opposite winger come running through the centre.

We're prone to balls over the top too, but that's the price of a high defensive line!

This is exactly the problem I'm having ... did you ever figure it out?

[Johan Cruyff's 3-4-3 Diamond (Very Fluid)]

On 7/6/2016 at 05:50, Joe. said:

This is an excellent thread with a great insight into how you've created your tactics to suit your needs.

Once I read through this, I was inspired to try something similar. I searched for a club I thought could manage it, but also a club not at the top of their league - somewhere I could create a legacy of sorts.

I've chosen Everton - Baines and Coleman are ideal wide men, rotated with Deulofeu/Lennon. Cleverley and McCarthy just inside them. I had Barry as DLP but wasn't convinced, and I'm rotating Lukaku & Niasse up front with Barkley in behind. I'm building my squad slowly, and don't have the depth just yet but it's getting there.

Initially I went to exactly replicate this tactic, and only brought in a new keeper in the first transfer window - but I soon discovered that it just didn't quite work. I started the season brightly though, but after a dip in form I couldn't win for love nor money.

I've added in 'work ball into box' as I found that without that, my players were getting lots of shots on goal but without creating great chances. I've also changed the two wider central defenders to BPD. I did this as, firstly, I can't see John Stones playing any other way - and secondly, I found that they would drift a little too wide for my liking. This has kept them closer together and means we retain possession from the outset - it didn't mean that I was just keeping possession for possession's sake and actually found that it opened up the opposition defence quite nicely. I've also dropped Jagielka in favour of Funes Mori, and in January I brought in Eder Balanta (BPD) and Steven N'Zonzi (DLP) who have both been fantastic.

I'm approaching the final ten games of the season now, and having been one game away from the sack, I made the mentioned tweaks, beat Chelsea 1-0 and haven't looked back since.

I've also got my youth intake training to play exactly the same way, though it has literally been 1 week since they came through so hopefully I'll be reaping the rewards of that before too long.

So yea - thank you for this thread. I'm thoroughly enjoying my save, and hope that I can keep up the good form for many seasons to come!

I am also using Everton, and took your advice regarding the BPDs, it really worked. I started this in my second season (I used a variant of Cleon's possession 4-1-2-3-DM tactic to finish 2nd in the EPL in 2015-16), so I had a decent transfer budget. I picked up Chancel Mbemba to be my CDC, flanked with Galloway and Stones. It worked brilliantly, until the middle of December. I was in second place with only 7 goals allowed through 13 league games. Mbemba was probably my MVP. But then it just fell apart, like the league figured it out.

Chelsea beat me 4-1, Tottenham beat me 5-3, in a game where Mbemba's mistakes directly led to three goals, and then after a 2-0 win over Palace, Newcastle of all teams beat me 4-2, and it could have been worse (Mbemba sat that one out, too tired)

Teams started attacking me from the flanks instead of up the middle. So instead of getting Mbemba, Stones and Galloway racing back and cutting off the threat from the middle (the high line helps this, it gives them time to catch up), they'd dump it down in the corner, pass it to the box, then Mbemba would try to close that guy down, but Galloway or Stones was already on him depending on the side the play was on. This leaves the striker in the middle wide open and he punches in an easy goal. It's been a disaster all of the sudden, and I have no clue how to stop it. Do I need a more defensive DLP? Seems like the squad is a lot more solid when I play Besic there. But he gets a yellow card almost every game, so I have play Lewis Cook there a lot, who is more offensive.

I suppose I could move McCarthy back to the DLP and Cook over the MCR. I am just completely flummoxed here. If anyone has any ideas, I am all ears.