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wazzaflow10

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Issue Comments posted by wazzaflow10

  1. Thinking along the lines of a tweak here - there seems to be two key factors that limit the players that are scouted/recommended. The first is the ability of the player and the second is the interested of the player.

    I would propose something along the lines of the recruitment focus set up being something like this:

    The CA/PA stars handle the quality of the player. If you only want to get players that can play or potentially play for Arsenal or Man City then you can adjust them here. If you want a broader assignment then reducing the stars would provide loads of useless players. This currently exists though I'm not entirely sure it functions as it appears in the UI screen. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that it does.

    A new addition would be using the interest level widget we see on the scouting page that ranges from Very interested to Doubtful/Dubious/None. When selecting the recruitment focus we can use this to also filter out players who have interest or lack of interest in joining. Setting it to None would provide the widest range of players while very interested would be the most narrow.

    I think the default would be the game as is. Players who are interested in joining as well as possess the requisite ability to contribute. I think that provides the new user/speed scouter play styles sufficiently. For those of us who want to be more hands on, allowing the focus to be more open and direct who is scouted more directly by the current mechanism of acknowledge (defer), keep scouting, or discard in reports would be more satisfactory. It would also create enough volume that the wonderkid hunters would have to trawl through a load of reports or just empty recommendation focuses to find obscure wonderkids.

  2. Just an example of how blind we are with the current scouting "rules". He wouldn't show up at all until he's 18 and "interested". I'm not asking that we be able to sign 16 year olds to precontracts, just want to know what players exist via scouting whether they're 16 or 35.

    https://www.marca.com/en/football/manchester-city/2024/03/18/65f85e61e2704ef7218b4567.html

    I know there's no 14 year olds in the game but if big teams are tracking young players this early there's no reason we shouldn't be getting scouting reports either for older, established players. Obviously there should be a very, very wide unknown PA factor for someone so young.

     

  3. 2 hours ago, zeza said:

    I only had the English package, so that's why it happened to only find English teams players'.

     

    Sure I figured that. But for a global team "any" would be the entire world. That seems horribly inefficient and a good way to overwork scouts and/or not get good coverage.

    A good test would be if there's a difference between any and England (or UK not sure which) for that save. In theory there shouldn't be.

  4. On 15/03/2024 at 08:16, Zachary Whyte said:

    Hello @zeza

    To answer your question, there will be no further changes made to scouting in FM24. As mentioned above, we’re happy with how the current system is working with the recent tweaks we made in our Main Data Update.

    However, we will continue to log/monitor all the feedback that has been presented in this thread, this has been very useful and could help us with future game development. 

    Also, you uploaded a save game recently and say you were struggling to find a striker for your Sunderland save. I loaded up that save and made an example recruitment focus for a striker and you can see the results with the screenshots below. 
     
    Hope this was helpful, thank you.

    Screenshot 2024-03-15 113558.png

    Screenshot 2024-03-15 113528.png

    Hi @Zachary Whyte,

    Thank you for the example screenshots.

    I appreciate you stating that you're looking into ways to modify the scouting module based on feedback here.

    I did want to point out one thing here that doesn't make logical sense to me as a player. In this focus it looks like you are effectively scouting the world with the areas dropdown set to "any". Based on results it would appear that scouts have more or less picked to scout exclusively in England despite this instruction. I don't think anything is wrong with that result given that Sunderland is likely only going to be recommended players that are able to pass the work permit criteria. However, if you're scouting "any" (again meaning world - or in Sunderland's case all available regions board allows you to scout) area, I would expect a significant number of players in the "near matches" category with a designation of may not pass WP requirements or definitely will not pass WP requirements etc.. It would be an opportunity to show us players who we could shortlist and track or possibly use an ESC slot (if available).

    In my opinion part of the challenge of scouting should be allocating your scouts to competitions, nations, regions that yield results that match what your team needs. As sunderland, it doesn't make much sense to scout Brazil. You can (provided the board allows it) and your scouts will find and scout players but your recommendations will be few. The cost of sending a scout there wouldn't be worth the price in that scenario. Compared to a team like Real Madrid who is very much interested in scouting Brazil, I'd expect a scout to find lots of players but only a few will have the real potential to make the jump. But if you're a team like that, is it better to let other clubs bring them to Europe and focus more on covering the top leagues where there is less uncertainty? Or do you hope you can uncover a player that can make an immediate impact for a much cheaper fee? If the goal is to prevent the human player from gobbling up all the best wonderkids I'd very much welcome more uncertainty or ambiguity from scouts for players under 18 all the way up to under 24 rather than partially obscuring the world behind you don't see player X because they aren't interested. I think the transfer window would be much more entertaining if you had to go through agents to find out interest levels or wages it would take to get them to sign rather than have it all sorted for you already.

     

     

  5. 6 hours ago, DavutOzkan said:

    I also will say that I have had seemingly better luck when I switched to region scouting, which to be fair, was mentioned by the dev in an earlier comment. Why it suddenly works better than nation scouting I have no clue, but that has been the case for me at least, although I haven't run any specific tests or anything about it, and it could just be placebo. 

    It's still not perfect, but I am at leats more satisfied with it now than I was before. 

    There's just more players to scout and therefore more possible recommendations. Hypothetically lets say there's 100 players in German, 100 players in Belgium, 100 in holland etc etc. If you scout each nation individually of those 100 players maybe only 5 fit the criteria of "being interested", "good enough", "not above market value", then you'll only see 5 recommendations in each of those focuses. But if you group them all together you'll get 5 (assuming there's 5 in each) times the number of nations in central europe. So it automatically looks like its "working better" just because you've expanded the pool so broadly.

    What I think is not correct (I won't say broken), is that if you did scout each nation individually with different scouts you should have significantly more scouted players than if you assigned one scout to an entire region. More players scouted = more recommendations in theory. But to me the issue is simply every team seems to have the same number of players scouted regardless of number of scouts the have or the focuses they select.

  6. 1 hour ago, DavutOzkan said:

    Says he has no interest right now. 

    Screenshot (1271).png

    I'd guess its because he's interested in a loan but he can't be loaned either as far as I know.

    I'm fine with SI saying players have no interested in being sold until they're 18 as a form of short-cutting to mimic more realistic behavior from the game and to stop people from signing every talented 16 year old when they appear in game.

    We should still be able to scout them though. The current guidelines would make it seem like the only club in the world who knew who Leo Messi was at 17 was Barcelona. Or more recently the only club who knows who Endrick is was Palmeires and then magically at 18 he just appears on everyone's radar.

    I'd rather SI use the tools they have built like playing pathways and current squad depth and reputation and historical transfer patterns as a guide to determine which contract a player will accept. Using Endrick again,  I know he's already signed with Madrid but hypothetically, given how often Brazilian players move to Spain v England would make it more likely he'd accept a transfer to a Spanish club than an English club all else equal.

  7. @Zachary Whyte

    So I did a test starting with a quick start save from 23 because I only have the demo version. Only England is technically loaded as a playable nation. I took that save and ported it over to 24 to run concurrently with 24 to compare results. Everything between the two saves is identical except for the version.

    First attempt I was Derby County I had four focuses League One, League Two Championship and England. They have about 5 scouts total. I saw no differences in the number of players scouted between versions. In six month time I have about 515 and 525 players scouted between both FM 23 and FM24. That's a reassuring result to me. 

    The second attempt I was Man Utd. They have 30+ scouts. When the game boots up not all of them are utilized in a recruitment focus initially. I delegated the assignments to the Chief Scout so all 36 scouts should be utilized. Now this next part is very perplexing to me.

    In FM 23 I have 738 players scouted. Great! More scouts results in more reports. I could argue that it should be much higher given the number of scouts Man Utd has is 7x higher but its at least in the right direction. Could be that there's just not a lot of players loaded because its a quick start game, not overly concerned at this point with that. The next point is what is most concerning to me.

    In FM 24 I received 515.  Why does a team of 5 scouts return the same amount of reports in the same amount of time as a team with 36 scouts? Especially when the previous version of the game shows 200 more players scouted?

    I really don't understand why a team, especially a world renown level team, is not allowed to flex its muscles and scout significantly more players than a League One team.

    I've uploaded both sets of saves to the server. 

    • Man Utd 23 to 24 Port Scoutinging Test.fm
    • Derby Comparison to 23.fm
    • Man Utd 23 to 24 Port Scouting Test fm23.fm
    • Derby 23 to 24 Port Scouting Test fm23.fm
  8. @Zachary Whyte

    Would you be able to either share a save or a bunch of screenshots of how your test games play out with the recruiting focuses at a top club over periods of time (6 months, 1 year, 2 years etc)? I don't have much of an issue with a team like Derby County because there's tons of available players. It would be helpful for me at least to see what the intention of the developers are when setting up focuses as well as what results you get back and compare it to what I am getting.

  9. 9 hours ago, Undy said:

    Thanks for the detailed explanation. The sentence "Given you are Arsenal that's basically a player of the same standard as someone like Emile Smith-Rowe or Eddie Nketiah that is interested/available to move" is interesting. Can you confirm please whether interest / availability affects the binary factor of whether or not a player appears in the focus at all rather than the recommendation grade the scout gives them? This may point towards why some people think scouting is "broken" when it is working per SI's expectations. If this is the case, it effectively excludes non-domestic U18 players appearing in recruitment focuses, which would be against the expectations of many FM players. I have never had a single non-domestic U18 player appear in a scouting focus even with min CA/PA set to half a silver star. 

    It would also be useful to get just the slightest peek at how this works under the hood - is player interest already "known" to the scouts even at zero player knowledge, therefore they will not begin to produce reports, or will they get up to a certain low-percentages knowledge to determine interest before abandoning the player? 

    I find it very bizarre that a player has to be interested at the moment you scouted a region in order for a scouting report to be filed. Especially considering that there is a a transfer and loan filter in the player scouted tab that will filter out players who are interested between none and extremely interested. It's like they put the criteria for top priority scouting where you're interested in making an immediate signing and applied that to standard and ongoing even though the point of the latter two is to gather a good database of players regardless of status.

    It just slightly breaks immersion for me down the line - how do I know how good my player really is if I can't see what the best player looks like even from a far distance.

    I just remember prior to one of the iterations of this game (it seems like 24.2 to me) there used to be 99+ scouting cards or recommendations playing as Man Utd. that I'd have to sort through. Now? I don't even think the email even registers on my radar as something to do. I don't need an admission that something is broken from them but something definitely changed somewhere along the lines for my games.

  10. 9 hours ago, Zachary Whyte said:

    Another important thing to note is that Scouts won’t give every player available right away, it will be a gradual process, otherwise the game would be too easy.

    I don't disagree with this idea but there's a vast difference between not knowing a player exists at all and having perfect scouting knowledge of a player. Besides the people who are interested in gaming the system won't use scouting. They'll just use the player search in scouting, set a criteria, and sign the best players. For my 2 cents I don't think its worth trying to stop those people from doing that via scouting limitations.

    This reads to me that the idea behind whatever tweaks were made between 23 and 24 was to slow the human player scouting efficiency down. The chief effect being you can't sign all the best young players before the AI even realises they're good. I don't have a problem with that in theory because it's going to be basically impossible to mimic the transfer market perfectly. I think we'd also run the risk of making the AI so preferential towards young players you can't sell anyone over the age of 24.

    Just an unsolicited suggestion for upcoming iterations of the game. If this is a major factor in changing the difficulty of the game why not make the fog of war effect stronger? I don't know if it has to be as extreme as something like the attributes shown are based on a scout or coaches judgement abilities. I think a happier middle ground here for many of us here and those who question what has happened to scouting in the general discussion thread is this idea - our scouts know of a player but attributes have much wider ranges and take longer to get a single value. I'd even go so far to hide personality for quite a while until you get to something like extensive or complete knowledge of a player. Personally, I'd much prefer a system where scouts tell me they think they've found a potentially useful player who meets the critera of their focus and asks me if I want to scout them further or not. The system basically does this already so I don't think its a drastic change on that end. Right now though, the "fog of war" for scouting is just around if you even know a player exists.

    I'll end on this note in a Chelsea save I've been testing/play for this issue the top 50 "wonderkids" news article showed up in my game. I had zero knowledge of most of them. I can understand an obscure country with a player I don't have info on but we're talking about the top young players in the game world and I dont know any of them exist at all according to my scouts anyway.

     

  11. 2 hours ago, Passion4FM said:

    I'm probably too critical in this matter but I don't understand why scouting was revamped for FM24. I fondly remember the time when you had two ways to scout - setting up scouting assignments to increase world knowledge and specific short or long term scouting focuses to find players for the first team.

    How @Zachary Whyte phrases himself - it sounds like the scouts will only look for players that can improve the team. Filtering away future candidates because of Interest and Current Abilites based on squad quality

    In my opinion, scouts shouldnt be the ones filtering and removing candidates. As I have understood how scouting works IRL, the scouts travel the world by watching matches and tournaments, they then report back to the club about their findings and then it's up to the club, or DoF, to decide whether they are likely to be a priority signing.

    Over the years we have heard lots of incidents where the scouts has a huge database of player files that he takes with him if he leaves.

    What I feel has been lost with scouting on FM24 is the idea to identify potential future signings. Now, I haven't been able to test this in-game with the latest patch but a feature request for FM25 is the ability to scout for players that can improve the youth team or first team. Distinguish this with two different buttons that you check.

    In terms of this information - I don't quite understand you:
    "Another important thing to note is that when creating a Recruitment Focus you have to factor in the quality of your squad.

    For example, if you are a top Premier League club with a very talented group of players, your scouts will obviously have a harder time recommending players that they feel will make a significant impact on your team.

    So, say instead you are a mid-table team in League One, your scouts will have a wider selection of players to look at and recommend to you."

    If we take into accout what you said earlier about Players Interest then wouldn't there be less recommendations for a lower league side? The number of players in the database with the quality to play that level is higher but due to reputation and nationality, I'm sure there will be less players that wish to play for club X (e,g Derby) due to reputation and league level.

    It's more likely that more players is interested in joining a bigger club, such as Man Utd if we don't count in the squad quality.
    In this matter I think it's worth to consider how you can merge the Squad Planner and Scouting. You could have color coded scout reports or focuses that let your scouts to think long-term - Right now, it seems everything is about improving the squad immediately. When scouting for players under the age of 18 the current squad quality shouldnt matter

    My post was already long so I didn't want to add more but I have saves from 2023 where as Man Utd I had over 2500 players scouted. When I stopped playing that save because of the scouting issue that seemed to appear in December I had 1600. Where did those reports go? I know there's a 1 year filter on the reports but it's not like I stopped scouting. I used to have 100+ report cards to review, to the point it was almost way too much to check acknowledge on there. Now? There's nothing. Literally nothing. I know they say nothings been changed but something related to scouts finding players has broken. I'm utterly perplexed as to what has happened. I don't own 23 because I hated how badly away teams were nerfed but I really wish I could go back and compare over a longer save.

  12. 4 hours ago, Zachary Whyte said:

    Hello everyone, following extensive testing, we can confirm that the average the number of recommendations and near matches has increased following the tweaks we made in the Main Data Update.

    We’re sorry that some of you are still not happy, to clear up some misconceptions. We made no changes to Scouting between Full Release and our first Major Update.

    Another important thing to note is that when creating a Recruitment Focus you have to factor in the quality of your squad.

    For example, if you are a top Premier League club with a very talented group of players, your scouts will obviously have a harder time recommending players that they feel will make a significant impact on your team.

    So, say instead you are a mid-table team in League One, your scouts will have a wider selection of players to look at and recommend to you.

    I hope this information was helpful, please do continue to leave your feedback, thank you.

    Hi Zachary,

    Thank you for your team's consideration for this bug report. I have a few follow up questions/comments for you and the team. Apologies for the length in advance.

    I think we've covered in here the function for IF a player is recommended in a focus. Your note above makes perfect sense if recommending a player for Derby County v Manchester United. In the quick tests I've conducted since 24.3 release I've seen that recommendations are much easier to come by if your team is of a lower quality. I'm 100% on board with that concept.

    Could you shed some light on the process that covers IF a player is scouted and/or how the game chooses what players to scout? It seems odd to me that if I have Derby county with all 5 of their scouts and Manchester United with their 30+ scouts, both have scouted the same number of players over the same period of time. More scouts + more budget should equate to more reports - maybe not perfectly linearly, but certainly the advantage of being a large club is the scouting network is much more extensive and comprehensive. Attached screenshots below show the same number of players scouted for both teams.

    Just to put it concretely - If Derby County has one scout assigned to scouting England and Manchester United has two or three or four scouts assigned to scouting England the number of players scouted for Manchester United should be significantly higher than that of Derby County.

    It seems to me that there is some ambiguity between what the recruiting focus concept is and what the recruiting focus UI is instructing the game to do. Below are two prevailing thoughts I've had on how it works or supposedly should work. I hope this clarifies some of the pushback myself and other have provided.

    What it sounds like you are telling us:

    • When creating a focus, the min CA and min PA and Age applies to determining IF a player is scouted then clearly there are fewer players for Manchester United to scout based on default focus values. It should stand to reason then if I am playing as Man Utd and set the min CA and min PA to 1/2 silver stars I want to scout the entirety of the region/competition that I've selected. However this does not happen. No matter my CA/PA threshold the number of players scouted is unchanged. Thus, the intense frustration of not being able to find players. We know they are there but the game will not uncover them for us with the tools we have been provided. We don't have a good explanation in the game as to why our scouts appear to just be sitting around.

    What I believe to be the intent of the recruitment focus mechanism is below:

    • If the assumption of min CA and min PA does not factor into if a player is scouted, but rather IF a player is recommended, then Man Utd should have a significant and sizeable scouting database advantage over a team like Derby County. Ultimately, the number of players recommended would be much smaller due to "failing CA checks" or "Lack of interest due to playing for rival teams". This assumption is in line with your statements in my opinion. Assuming this is correct the following is the disconnect between what we experienced prior to one of the patches and 24.2.
    • In this situation, ALL scouted players who fail a recommendation check (for any reason) would go into the scouted players tab but not be designated as a match for a recruitment focus. This to me makes more sense from a technical and strategic perspective. If I am Derby County - do I waste time scouting the Premier League? I'd likely get zero recommendations for transfers but maybe a handful of hopeful loans. Or if I'm Man Utd do I bother scouting the Championship and below hoping to uncover a gem for cheap? Again very few recommendations due to failed CA checks but maybe I find an interesting breakthru prospect with good PA. If I do scout those leagues I should have comprehensive of knowledge of them whether they generate recommendations or not - provided I scout the league long enough or have enough scouts to warrant comprehensive knowledge.

    To level set all this - the expectation for me isn't that the human manager would have complete or perfect knowledge of every single player in the game or an area. In fact I think we should have more imperfect and asymmetrical knowledge of external players (for another day). To use a previous example, if playing as Man Utd we would know that someone like Haaland is likely not interested in joining at game start. If we are extensively scouting England or the Premier League, however, a lack of interest on his part should not preclude us from having minimal or marginal scouting knowledge of him. I don't have an expectation that he would ever be interested in joining during the save. Along those lines, who would have ever thought Neymar would be interested in joining PSG until he did. The main point I'm trying to address is if I'm looking for a striker I want to know as much of the universe as I can given the resources I'm allotted in both scouting manpower and monetary budget. If I'm told no by Haaland's agent and no by Osimhen's agent and so on until I get to Rasmus Hojlund that's more realistic to me than the game "pre-filtering" who shows up based on a black box algorithm. I can sympathize with the idea that the black box would prevent complaints of "why is so in so not interested in my team when I've won the Champions League 5 years in a row. Everyone should be interested in my team." Sometimes ignorance is bliss. 

    By no means am I trying to game/hack the scouting system or ask you to make it insanely easy to spot and sign wonderkids. There's the player search tool for people who want to play the game that way. My interest is keeping the game somewhat realistic in the sense of as manager I have a network of scouts who build a repository of players that I can then ask to further scout or discard.

    I sincerely appreciate you and the rest of the SI dev/qa team's hard work to address these challenges given the magnitude of changes happening in the next 6 months.

     

    image.png.0128008de8cbf25c60d7d354cfc47f4c.pngimage.png.128a0381f070da225df856327abfcff4.png

     

     

  13. 4 hours ago, Zachary Whyte said:

    Hello @wazzaflow10

    We've looked into your save and seen that this is purely a visual issue with the scout reports screen and what is shown there. (We will look into this)

    But it will have no bearing on the scout's work in a recruitment focus. In the example you've given, the scout assignments screen correctly shows that Guzman has produced 14 reports which can be found in the 15-18 recruitment focus.

    Ok I thought that was the case - It seems to appear in the focus but hard to track in the players scouted tab. If you want to move this to the UI section that is fine by me since it seems to fit that category better.

  14. 3 hours ago, zeza said:

    Yeah, my scouting broke again. I've given up to be honest. We don't have an answer about our questions, Zachary's responses just made things worse because it shown that they don't have a clue about what's going on.

    I'm very disappointed but I'll try a new save in the Winter Update, hoping it comes this week

    I'd be shocked if they left the module broken after this. I really would. I can see how you miss it initially, especially during the summer window when lots of agent offers appear. Its very strange to me that when a player "becomes available" you have 100% knowledge of them but they don't show up as scouted until that event occurs. Something is definitely happening on the back end that doesn't make it through to the UI parts of the game.

  15. 3 hours ago, Thijsie said:

    I have a question for the fellow players in here: How do you even play the game with this broken? I haven't played the game for about 2 months now and am checking this thread daily, assuming it would be solved within a couple of days. But since it has been so long, I really want to play the game again. 
    Do you all just go to the search option and manually click players to be scouted, and then come back after a while? 

    I haven't touched a long term save I had. Just been doing random saves. Actually went back to 21 for a while.

     

    @zeza

    Turns out all my optimism was for nothing. Most of the increase in scouted players was from my director of football scouting agent offers it seems. Almost instantaneous too. Such a strange, strange bug.

  16. 1 hour ago, zeza said:

    The thing is I don't see major streamers like Zealand speaking about this, I don't know if they don't scout as often or with the same methods as us here (they probably player search), but it's something that I've never seen except from this thread here and some comments in general discussion. 

    Ok so here's a crazy thing. I went and re-verified the game files in steam. Everything came back clean though. Started a brand new game with Chelsea again. No added files or anything. Deleted all the original recruiting focuses. Set up my own in the same way you said to and I got 100 new players in a month of scouting from just two focuses in England and Spain.

    This is bizarre.

  17. 3 minutes ago, zeza said:

    Yeah, I changed clubs and it broke again, even without selecting the analysts. Let's hope next week's update fixes it, but if I could guess and with Zachary's comments about the issue, I'm not very sure that they'll fix it, as if it was something widespread, they've sent out a hotfix..

    In the 15 odd years I've been playing via steam I don't think I've ever really seen a true gameplay hotfix. I have a hard time believing that this isn't in everyone's game. I was playing pure vanilla version and it broke. Given the number of people who come into the general discussion forum and say something I'm inclined to believe that if you pay attention to scouting you'd notice.

  18. Just now, wazzaflow10 said:

    Yeah not sure this is entirely working as it should even with these adjustments. It's definitely "better" in the sense of it make works 10% of the way. None of the players that are in progress in the focus are listed in the scout priority screen. So that seems super odd to me.

    I also did a manual search and that returns some players. Seems like 4 a week is what they can handle when manually selecting. The whole core function just seems broken right now.

     

    typo make should be maybe

  19. 13 hours ago, zeza said:

    It does assign automatically to one analyst (always the same). 

    I don't know how it's in English but try to make it a permanent report (not urgent/normal) so the scouts have time as well.

    Yeah not sure this is entirely working as it should even with these adjustments. It's definitely "better" in the sense of it make works 10% of the way. None of the players that are in progress in the focus are listed in the scout priority screen. So that seems super odd to me.

    I also did a manual search and that returns some players. Seems like 4 a week is what they can handle when manually selecting. The whole core function just seems broken right now.

     

  20. 4 minutes ago, zeza said:

    Yes, I redid all the scouting focuses but didn't select any analyst, didn't even open the menu, just selected my scouts and it worked somehow. Try to delete all the focuses and do that method, it might work.

    yeah deleted all that. but did open the menu. but left the any analyst checked.

    This is what I have in progress so far after a few days. Got assigned to an analyst after the fact. Certainly better I guess. I'll be curious if any of them actually show up in the players scouted. I don't know if I'd call it fixed but I'll try another one.

    image.thumb.png.c5536e31cc2995e2f50cf1b805a9ccdb.png

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