Off Topic Thread: Hey lurkers, post ffs!!

[Cleon]

SRL is upto dodgey things hence all the moving, blaming the landlord is the cover story.

[SRL88]

Commit a murder in each village then move to stop them catching me .

[fuzzrab]

I am currently watching the Chelsea vs Arsenal game. I am very surprised at the score so far. The refs assistant needs some glasses. I am still trying to work out why Gibbs was sent off when the OX was at fault. I hate too say it but it really does seem like a case of 'they all look the same to me'. I really hope that there is a better explanation but I can't think of one right now.

On another note I think Arsene has now got to go. He is not going to win the league, the CL and I think ( though I may be wrong) that they are out of both cups. The last 2 seasons maybe could be forgiven as he lost his 2 best players. This season however he has had a stabilised team and has brought in what many people feel is the best assist machine in Europe in Mesut Ozil.

[Cleon]

Arsene has to go? Lol, shut up you numpty!!

[Nottingham Forest]

Well that's depressing. Glad I didn't have to watch it . Some of our fans are calling for Fawaz to pull the trigger. I'm undecided but could see why he would.

[fuzzrab]

Arsene has to go? Lol, shut up you numpty!!

You may not agree with me but the facts speak for themselves. What was the last thing he won (back in 2006 I think it was)? even sir Alex would have been gone if he had such a poor record. how long can the good faith of the fans last?

[Cleon]

You may not agree with me but the facts speak for themselves. What was the last thing he won (back in 2006 I think it was)? even sir Alex would have been gone if he had such a poor record. how long can the good faith of the fans last?

By that logic every single manager who doesn't win something should be sacked no?

[fuzzrab]

By that logic every single manager who doesn't win something should be sacked no?

You are being ridiculous and you know it. Obviously not every manager should be judged on trophies won.

Arsenal are a top 4 team and they challenge for trophies but the reality is they are surely going to go another year without winning anything. There is only so long you can live on past glories. The excuse that they were financially behind the other clubs due to the stadium rebuilding (yes Chelsea & Man City have tons of money. Didn't stop Man U winning though) is an old one.

I think this season though has been an eye opener. previously Arsene had an excuse with his best players leaving for pastures new. This season not only has he kept his core squad but has actually strengthened it with addition of Mesut.

Don't get me wrong I love watching an Arsenal match as they are one of, if not the most, pleasing teams to watch in the EPL. I just think maybe his methods and ideas are not suitable anymore.

[Cleon]

Yeah I'm being ridiculous. Your last reply is full of nonesense and you can tell you don't really follow them, so not sure why you feel you are in a position to judge. Completely ignoring the bad injuries etc.

Even without, calling for him to be sacked is laughable and only someone who doesn't really understand football would come out with something as pathetic as that. And yes the patheticness I refer to would be you.

[fuzzrab]

Yeah I'm being ridiculous. Your last reply is full of nonesense and you can tell you don't really follow them, so not sure why you feel you are in a position to judge. Completely ignoring the bad injuries etc.

Even without, calling for him to be sacked is laughable and only someone who doesn't really understand football would come out with something as pathetic as that. And yes the patheticness I refer to would be you.

Fair enough I guess we should agree to disagree then.

[JD nawrat]

Don't think it's at all ridiculous/pathetic/nonsense to suggest that Arsene should be sacked. Not on the basis of today, but on the basis of the last 8 years. Arsenal haven't come close to winning anything of merit since the Champions League of 2006. Oh, sorry, the Capital One Cup of 2011 where they choked against a side that went on to be relegated.

Arsenal have always had a highly talented squad which should have won something more than hee haw in 8 years. You can make excuses - not had the funds to compete (which is bollocks though fwiw), the rise of Chelsea and City, United being dominant until now - but the fact of the matter is that a team of Arsenal's stature and a team who have had the quality that Arsenal have had for all that time should have won more than what they have. Even a "faltering Liverpool side" has mustered up enough to win stuff in the last 8 years and they've had less money, less talent (except maybe in the 08-09 season) and even "less capable" managers like Houllier.

Where do you stop excusing Wenger and sit up and say "you know what, this actually isn't acceptable" ?

I know he's done a lot for Arsenal, he's clearly still a very good tactician and a good manager, but you can't excuse his inability to win silverware. Does he deserve to be sacked? He doesn't 'deserve' it, no. But would I understand him being sacked? Absolutely.

If Arsenal don't win the FA Cup this season (or the League, although I highly doubt they will win the league) then it'll bring the drought to 9 years. That's far too long for a team like Arsenal if you ask me. If I were an Arsenal fan, I think I'd want him to step down if he ends this season without silverware again.

[RTHerringbone]

Jesus Christ! Arsenal were in a World of Pain before Wenger rocked up.

He has got them successful, seen them through tricky financial times whilst they built a stadium, consistently kept them in the Champions League and remained competitive.

All the while, you have billionaires *****ing money about at City and Chelsea, and the most successful team in the Premier League era knocking teams for six.

Some Arsenal fans have phenomenally short memories, and need a dose of reality.

[JD nawrat]

No silverware in 8 years and nothing to talk about besides being runners-up in two finals and finishing top 4 each season is classed as "successful"?

It's not failure but I don't think it's success...

e: and before anyone hits out with "your attitude is rotten, say that to an X fan!" - it's all about perspective. Arsenal are a team who should be doing more and winning more than what their previous 8 years has brought them. Is that all on Wenger? Not all of it, no. But a lot of it is.

[RTHerringbone]

They shouldn't be doing more though, that is the point. They have had a dominant Man Utd to face, and then the money of Chelsea and, more recently, City to contest against.

Considering their relative opportunities, they have done well. 3rd / 4th is the limit of their current aspirations, realistically.

[Nottingham Forest]

No one wants to talk about Forest .

[SRL88]

No one wants to talk about Forest .

You got spanked.

[Nottingham Forest]

I know .

[SRL88]

I know .

Davies out .

[Nottingham Forest]

Possibly . His 'us against the world' mentality isn't working. If we don't get the play-offs and go up. He should go. Although, maybe get rid now. A few of our fans seem to think it's the right idea.

[SRL88]

I haven't actually followed the Championship much lately, but what has your form been like? Is it down to poor form, injuries or a mix?

[Nottingham Forest]

Well up until the Sheffield United game we were 16 games unbeaten iirc. But we had a few injuries then. Since then, we've played **** but also had some bad injuries. We have a number of key players out for the season or out for spells. We've had Blackstock, Cohen and Wilson out since November time. Vaughan and Lansbury out since January. Hobbs has also been out since then. Reid & Lichaj have missed most of the past month or two as well . We're pretty much down to bare bones and the quality just isn't there.

It doesn't help that Davies is stubborn as ****.

[SRL88]

I thought he was the best thing since sliced bread when he returned .

[tomtuck01]

Errr did someone suggest Wenger is a good tactician? Must be joking, he's worse tactically than a hell of a lot of managers.

I like Wenger, got a lot of time for him with the way he likes to play football, (despite what I say above). However, prior to this season I could see the argument for his removal. There have been clear signs this season though that his current crop are moving forward. Personally I think if they win the FA Cup it will be just what they need to kick them on. Like when City won the FA Cup in 2011 against Stoke, United also with the FA Cup in 1990, etc. That first trophy really can propel you to greatness.

[JD nawrat]

Errr did someone suggest Wenger is a good tactician? Must be joking, he's worse tactically than a hell of a lot of managers.

I like Wenger, got a lot of time for him with the way he likes to play football, (despite what I say above). However, prior to this season I could see the argument for his removal. There have been clear signs this season though that his current crop are moving forward. Personally I think if they win the FA Cup it will be just what they need to kick them on. Like when City won the FA Cup in 2011 against Stoke, United also with the FA Cup in 1990, etc. That first trophy really can propel you to greatness.

I agree with your point about propelling them forwards. If they lose though (and I think that's a real possibility because Everton are a real threat to them, especially since Martinez seems to be somewhat of a "cup manage") I would really begin to question Wenger (if I were an Arsenal fan...personally couldn't give a toss what they do/n't win).

[fuzzrab]

If they win the cup, and it's a big if as far as I am concerned, then yes that may propel them to another great era. However if they don't that will be something like 9 years that they haven't won anything. Surely there has to be a time when you have to start questioning the manager?

I am not an Arsenal fan as Cleon says but surely even the most ardent fan must be beginning to wonder if it is time for a change?

[SRL88]

Definitely a big if. Wigan would worry the hell out of me in that competition .

[Cleon]

Sheffield United will win it....

[Nottingham Forest]

I thought he was the best thing since sliced bread when he returned .

He was . However, we all knew what he was like. He just seems to have got worse. Whilst I have no issue with him staying if he can keep us up. My first choice should he go isn't popular . Sure Cleon won't be pleased either .

[Cleon]

He was . However, we all knew what he was like. He just seems to have got worse. Whilst I have no issue with him staying if he can keep us up. My first choice should he go isn't popular . Sure Cleon won't be pleased either .

Clough? You've no chance, he'd be mental to leave us. He has unlimited funds and a better youth academy and a bigger club that Forest tbh:brock:

[Nottingham Forest]

I do have him as my first choice. I wouldn't say you're a bigger club tbh. I'd also say the unlimited funds is also not massively appealing considering he'd have the same with us pretty much. The better academy, well I can't argue with that at the moment.

I don't see the fascination with Mackay though. He's a good manager, but there's two sides to every story.

[tomtuck01]

I agree with your point about propelling them forwards. If they lose though (and I think that's a real possibility because Everton are a real threat to them, especially since Martinez seems to be somewhat of a "cup manage") I would really begin to question Wenger (if I were an Arsenal fan...personally couldn't give a toss what they do/n't win).

Where do Everton and Martinez come into it? :confused:

[Cleon]

I do have him as my first choice. I wouldn't say you're a bigger club tbh. I'd also say the unlimited funds is also not massively appealing considering he'd have the same with us pretty much. The better academy, well I can't argue with that at the moment.

I don't see the fascination with Mackay though. He's a good manager, but there's two sides to every story.

We are a bigger club than Forest though, we have a much bigger fanbase. Our club at present is much more attractive that Forest, sure we are in League One but we won't be for long, everything is in place for this club to move on now massivley and Clough knows that. You've honestly no chance of getting him, I don't think he'd ever take the Forest job anyway from the way he's spoken in the past. He doesn't want to be his dad or follow his path.

Plus having funds with us isn't the same with you though as you have a board full of ***** who are always chopping and changing

[Cleon]

Where do Everton and Martinez come into it? :confused:

It's okay he doesn't know what he's talking about clearly as he thinks Everton are still in the cup...

[JD nawrat]

Arsenal knocked Everton out of the last round ffs

Blonde moment. Thought they played in the next round, when it was the previous round.

[Gizmo7]

Leicester are doing well

Back in the Premier League after a 10 year wait, come on you Foxes!

*fingers crossed, etc.*

[Smac]

If they win the cup, and it's a big if as far as I am concerned, then yes that may propel them to another great era. However if they don't that will be something like 9 years that they haven't won anything. Surely there has to be a time when you have to start questioning the manager?

I am not an Arsenal fan as Cleon says but surely even the most ardent fan must be beginning to wonder if it is time for a change?

For me there are two types of clubs at the top: The ones that demand dominance and the ones that accept "being there or thereabouts" to a greater degree than "not at all". For the first type, it's all well and good if there is only one such club in a league, like say in Greece with Olympiakos. If you're the only club with the finances and talent to dominate then it is pretty reasonable to demand dominance. However, there are 3+ such clubs in the Premiership, meaning they are all, if holding such a view, irrational as hell.

Given that there are 3+ clubs with the means and/or talent to be the top team then one should expect them to win the prem 1/3 or less of the time (accounting for other challenging teams winning instead). Yet their expectations and demands don't really reflect that (and by 'their' I mean either the club's owners, directors, or majority of fans, etc..).

With the second type of top team there is a lot more room to either rationally consider "Should we have done better or worse this season, based on talent?" or make rationalizations for either failures or great successes beyond the expected output. I would suggest Arsenal are one of this latter type. Arsenal are close enough in talent and resources to the other top teams each year to have either won the prem or have won 1 or 2 of the other silverware available, but I doubt anyone would suggest they are far superior.

If we would consider the top 6 teams as roughly equal, just for an example, how often could they each expect to win anything in a given year? How much of an anomaly would it be were any of them to win either everything or nothing one year? The chance of winning nothing is actually quite high year on year. The chance of having several such years in a row is also quite high, even if everything were equal and left to chance.

The paradox is that it is often the clubs that demand dominance (irrationally) that do outperform more rational expectations. There seems to be inbuilt into the competitive spirit a willingness to accept (unreasonably) your own specialness in the absence of evidence. Such an attitude is easy to understand as a competitive advantage in itself. Which is why ultimately I do agree that Arsenal are unlikely to win much more under Wenger. He is too reasonable.

However I would still like to take issue with the idea that "If they don't that will be something like 9 years that they haven't won anything." is anything other than solipsistic madness as a reason to hire or fire a manager. Such arguments completely miss the fact that there are other teams to consider. Were those other teams better or worse than Arsenal (and, separately, how much of that is up to the manager?)? Were they more or less injuries at the time of competitions between them? Etc..

And, it also misses out on the idea that in an environment with many "top" teams, winning frequently is much less likely (all else being equal). Winning infrequently is the statistical norm.

Secondly, "Surely there has to be a time when you have to start questioning the manager?". Shouldn't that be every year whether you win or not? Granted it is incredibly difficult to analyze, but isn't it quite possible that a mediocre manager wins a satisfying trophy through no fault of his own? Is it not also possible that a great manager strapped with common limitations no fault of his own comes to nothing and is wrongly impeached for failure? I think part of the allure of Football is that we can safely over-attribute success and failure to charismatic or nefarious characters, based on tribal impulses and neanderthal needs. But if you put that into words and make it an argument it sounds silly because it is so.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I still agree with your conclusions. I just don't agree with the arguments. And I don't quote you fuzzrab because you're the one making the arguments. All the posts discussing Arsenal on this page seem to assume that these sorts of arguments are valid. I just quoted yours because it was succinct and clearly stated.

I guess what I'm saying is: "Out with Arsene! Lets hope we're right about this because he sure was reasonable, consistent, and almost recently successful, which is more than most managers ever achieve!"..."Oh, and, the sample set of data is too small to arrive at conclusions. We knowingly demand more than is reasonable because...that's football!".

[Gizmo7]

...that conversation is boring now

[Cleon]

My heart bleeds for all those teams and managers who haven't won anything for 6 or 7 years.

[SRL88]

When was the last time your lot won something Cleon?

[Cleon]

When was the last time your lot won something Cleon?

Division 4 Champions 1981-82

FA Cup 1925 was last major thing

I'd love to see the big club supporters go decades/generations without winning something ffs and give them something to really moan about. Spoilt brats

[ssestig]

^ Exactly that

[Cleon]

Don't get me wrong I don't resent club from being successful but I do resent and detest the fans who have a bad run in the Prem and think its the end of the world. Finishing 7th rather than 1st isn't a massive disaster like people make out. Being bottom of the league in the bottom tier, now that's what I'd class as a massive disaster

Clubs from the leagues outside the Prem would love to swap places and take on all the Premier league teams issues if it meant we are in the Prem. But Prem fans are drama queens (not all but most who use forums, twitter, FB etc) as they lose a league game and think the world has ended ffs

[Ty]

We had our glory in 2008... we wont win anything for decades now

[Cleon]

Looks like not only NF who thinks Clough would go to Forest. Still confident he wouldn't go though and this article explains why;

http://www.sheffieldtelegraph.co.uk/sport/sheffield-united/alan-biggs-clough-showing-how-to-take-charge-1-6524658

[SRL88]

Played golf for the first time in at least six years today. What horrible weather as well .

[RTHerringbone]

Played golf for the first time in at least six years today. What horrible weather as well .

What's wrong with glorious sunshine and blue skies?

South > North

[SRL88]

What's wrong with glorious sunshine and blue skies?

South > North

Started to hailstone during the round .

[Cleon]

Where'd you go for Golf? Prudhoe?

North > South btw, down south you don't do chips and gravy but sell eel, wtf is all that about!!

[Ty]

Chips and gravy from a Chinese is amazing!

[Cleon]

Chips and gravy from a Chinese is amazing!

With some chicken fried rice too

I see you sacked another manager Ty (well not you personally)