Johan Cruyff's 3-4-3 Diamond (Very Fluid)

[NotSoSpecialOne]

I was hoping to be digging into AC: Valhalla but an arbitrary decision by Ubisoft means my PC can't run it. So I've gone and gotten FM 21 instead; I'm planning on picking this up once again with Ajax as the first port of call (at least when I can find the time to sit down and dig into it).

[NotSoSpecialOne]

New FM, new shiny match engine (hopefully). And so a return to the 3-4-3 diamond and totaalvoetbal. Once again, the stage will be set in Amsterdam with de Godenzonen. Who better than the club that play in a stadium named after the legendary Johan Cryuf f himself?

Let's take a peek at the overall system. I have opted for some changes in terms of roles, which I will get into shortly but in general the team instructions have remained. Play Out of Defense + shorter passing helps to enable utilising our diamond shape. Slower tempo helps with that too but allows us to be patient as needed. A positive mentality affords the players some creative leeway, to play outside the defined passing length and tempo so we aren't too one dimensional in this element. Once again, we will look to counter press when possession is lost. However, this time around, I have opted to remain at the default (for mentality) level of pressing urgency and instead creating a split block with the 4 players positioned furthest up the pitch being told to press more aggressively.

Onto the roles;

Goalkeeper: I've deliberated between a Sweeper Keeper on Support and Defend duty, but ultimately opted for the Sweeper Keeper in on Support. It's a compromise because honestly I think the Attack duty's positioning is ideal but it's locked into the Dribble More and Take More Risks setting (where as the Support duty is only locked into the latter. We don't want either of those honestly, because starting attacks wasn't the job of the keeper but a Sweeper Keeper on Defend does not move up the pitch high enough.

Central Defender: Libero on Support once again, to hopefully serve as the base of the first diamond in the team. I've given the role Hold Position tentatively to see if this keeps the desired shape. The player playing in this role will be taught two PPMs if they don't already have them; Brings Ball Out of Defense and Tries Long Range Passes (although this seems to be gone in FM 21? so I don't know if I'll use something else) - Koeman was capable of playing more direct to the wingers now and again, as well as bring the ball out with his dribbling.

Wide Defenders: I have opted to continue with the no frills option of using Central Defenders on Defend Duty - but depending on how the defensive line shape pans out, I might consider (just an example) doing something funky like BPD on stopper to bump their mentality up but we'll see. The roles are again given the Stay Wider PI so we see the kind of lateral movement we expect from them, but with the team's overall pressing urgency being lower, I have not included Close Down Less this time. The players occupying this role will also be taught Brings Ball Out of Defense as they liked to do this and were capable of it.

Defensive Midfielder: Perhaps unsurprisingly, I have stayed with the Halfback. It's the only role that is going to give us the kind of lateral movement we expect from the player in this position. No PIs or PPMs at this stage (one of the PPMs I did have in mind is also apparently absentso..)

Right Central Midfielder: Unchanged. Box-to-box midfielder just perfectly encapsulates the vertical movement that Eusebio played with. For some lateral movement, I considered giving the role the Moves Into Channel PI but instead, I will be teaching the players the Moves Into Channels PPM instead. 

Left Central Midfielder: I am undecided on this position, honestly. Advanced Playmaker on Support (with some PI tweaks or PPMs) is the contender here but I'm concerned about how introducing a ball magnet into the system will change things. So for now, I will start with the Mezzala on Support. Tries Killer Ballers will be an ideal PPM here to help shape the player into a playmaker without being a ball magnet. I am going to be taking a leaf out of @ElJefe4book here and either have 1) have specific instructions for a more defensive player that will change this role into a Carrilero or 2) a second tactic where the only change is this position being a Carrilero. Primarily for stronger opposition in Europe.

The wide men: Previously, I had employed Inverted Wingers here and in truth, I found that they held the width fairly well most of the time. However, I'm going to employ Wingers (on support, to encourage their defensive duties) instead this time. They'll hold the width when necessary but they tend to drift toward the box in the final third as well, which is desirable. The wingers will be taught the respective Cuts Inside PPMs and this is the contrastt to Inverted Wingers; instead of being a tactical decision to drive inside, whether this happens or not is the player's decision - individuality. It's something I had trialed with my take on LvG's Ajax rather accidentally and liked.

Attacking midfielder: Maybe this will be a surprise, considering I tried and failed twice to get a Shadow Striker to do what was needed before reverting to an AM(A) but new FM, new match engine and so the Shadow Striker gets another opportunity to shine. The couple of friendlies I have watched, the movement has been nice for what is the tip of the midfield diamond. Not that friendlies mean much.

The Striker: This is another one I've had a bit of a rethink over. For a Laudrup-esque player, the False Nine role makes sense, however for Romario I feel a Complete Forward on Support is perhaps more appropriate - the role will drop deep and interchange with the Shadow Striker but overall less of a playmaker than a F9 in this capacity. This isn't set in stone by any stretch of the imagination and an alternative I am considering is a Complete Forward on attack that has the Comes Deep To Get Ball PPM.

[04texag]

Interested to see how you get on with this @NotSoSpecialOne

[NotSoSpecialOne]

I think much in the same way as FM 20, Ajax is somewhat lacking in the striker department for this style of play. I have a soft spot for Klaas Jan Huntelaar, don't get me wrong, but you'll never convince me that anything other than a target man is suitable for his twilight years . That leaves me with Dusan Tadic who is perfectly capable up front, but he is going to be my preferred Shadow Striker for this season. That leaves Antony, who is very tidy and I expect to grow into the first choice option, and Lassina Traore who doesn't look as good as last year's version at a quick glance. So allow me to introduce you to Rafael Santos Borre, a 2.5 million pound steal from River Plate.

He's not the most technically or creatively gifted player that will ever occupy this position going forward but his mentals are pretty nuts for the price tag and he'll do nicely while Antony improves. Other than maybe a central defender, that's the transfer business out of the way. I'm thinking a much more academy oriented approach to go along with this but we'll see.

Now on to the real motivation for this post. The season opener. For us it will be a the fierce De Topper derby to kick off the season, with PSV travelling to the Johan Cryuff ArenA. PSV were expected to line up in a 4-4-2 and play in a gegenpressing style, which they ended up doing. I'm still figuring out the match day experience and all the changes to analytics and everything so I'm not going to be able to show stuff off just yet annoyingly. For now though, the result.

I can show some of the goal moments though, that hopefully highlights what I consider promising stuff anyway.

Borre scores on his debut to extend the lead to 2-0 

Tadic makes the forward run, bringing the defensive midfielder with him. Leaves Mazrauoi free to exploit the gap in the defense with a through ball to Borre.

This next one was disallowed for offside but still a nice passage of play (in 2d to be able to see the positioning)

Note Tadic's movement (no.10) here in particular. He hangs out wide, allowing for the overload of the LB and the space for Blind to play Promes in.

Quincy nabs his second goal of the game to make it 3-0.

The ball is knocked long to Borre to initiate a counter attack, who cuts inside, beating his man and then instead of shooting or taking on another defender, deliciously plays in Promes for an easy(ish) finish.

[NotSoSpecialOne]

Apologies for another back to back post if that's frowned upon, but I'm back with another update.

We're ten games into the season now and a worrying trend is starting to develop. Notably the games against ADO Den Haag and more recently FC Emmen. Admittedly understrength sides were fielded in these matches with UCL games to play but I don't think one can chalk it up purely to that alone. More on that in a bit.

First we'll take a quick look at one of the goals against Atletico Madrid. Just some nice passing and movement that stuck out to me.

One thing I am noticing on a positive note is that the Shadow Striker seems to have more lateral movement compared to FM20, where it never really moved into the channels all that much for my liking. The halfback also has more lateral movement compared to its FM 20 counterpart as well which is nice.

Now onto the issues at hand. I will use the most recent defeat to FC Emmen, although the issues here are not new to this match. Here we can see they lined up in a 4-2-3-1, fairly standard stuff honestly..

We'll now take a look at two of the goals they scored.

Here we see Schurrs (No3) get caught in possession, allowing Emmen to hit us on the quick transition. That's fine and these things happen. It's the positioning of other players that the problem lay. We see the halfback (37) move toward the ball carrier after he gains possession but ultimately doesn't have the pace to close Kolar down, this too is fine. No.15 is the Libero and in this situation, he's the player who should most aggressively be looking to close this attack down. My question is... why the lack of commitment? As noted in a previous post, the role was given Hold Position but that PI has always been considered an in possession one. Maybe that's changed? That's the only logical reason I see here. The other problematic thing with this sequence of play is that the LCB (no.25) is very clearly moving with the intent to close down Kolar as well. Which leaves acres of space for De Leeuw. It's an odd decision and the only reason I can think of is the Libero not closing down sprung him into action (and honestly, even with the Libero not closing down this was totally unnecessary - 4 players for the ball carrier? lol)

Onto the second highlight

The 20-30 seconds of build up prior to this clip has the LCB (25) no wider than the halfway line, which carries into the clip itself. Here we have the Libero (15) marking the opposition striker (9), the LCB (25) also remains very central in what appears to be also picking up the striker. Net result is No.8 has plenty of space to receive the cross and score a very high percentage goal. You could maybe make the case that the AML (19) should have tracked his run into the box, as he had sort of picked him up initially but in situations like this it would be more ideal to for the wider CB to pick this player up IMO. 3rd goal mirrored this to an extent but in fairness, there were more opposition players in the box and the marking choices made sense as a result.

The question is then how to solve this. Obviously its going to be an inevitable weakness, but it shouldn't be this easy (or comical). Do I opt to defend with width, effectively looking to funnel the opposition inside and hopefully that sees the wider CBs not coming so narrow when it isn't called for? Do I start allocating marking duties on a regular basis? Unsure at this stage.

I'll end this post with a look at the overall analytical view of the season thus far.

[rouflaquettes31]

Hi,

Thanks for your very complete post. Very interesting.

I faced the same defensive problems (even if I play with wide midfielder and not winger).

For the moment, I set a marking instruction for my wide midfielders and wide defenders. Not on man, but on position.

Thus, against a 4-5-1, I set my left midlfielder marking MOD, and I set my left defender marking... MOD too. In fact, my players do not stay next to the MOD.

It is the only solution I found. The default is that I have to adapt on each game my instructions. But in reality, coaches adapt it every times.

I am interested on yout next steps

Edited November 16, 2020 by rouflaquettes31

[NotSoSpecialOne]

Appreciate your opinion!

I will admit that when it comes to opposition instructions and all that jazz, I'm on the lazier side of things - an old bad habit from a bygone era of being able to 'set and forget' a tactic.

In FM 20 I did trial run positional marking but the results weren't promising so it was eventually ditched. May be the case that 21 is less forgiving.

I think my next step for now is I'm going to set defensive width to wide before I attempt to implement some positional marking. The idea here will be to observe how it affects the positioning of the wider CBs and their zonal marking decisions. Well, I've also dropped Hold Position from the Libero but small changes. 

On the subject of the Libero, analysing heat map, average position etc it seems like we are not getting our first diamond when in possession. 

[04texag]

On 16/11/2020 at 03:04, rouflaquettes31 said:

left midlfielder marking MOD

I'm sorry but what is MOD?

[Egecann]

1 hour ago, 04texag said:

I'm sorry but what is MOD?

I assume it is winger ?

[rouflaquettes31]

Il y a 1 heure, 04texag a dit :

I'm sorry but what is MOD?

Oh yes. It's not in english sorry!

MOD = Right offensive/attacking midfielder maybe in english?

MOG = Left off midfielder

Edited November 17, 2020 by rouflaquettes31

[rouflaquettes31]

Il y a 1 heure, NotSoSpecialOne a dit :

Appreciate your opinion!

I will admit that when it comes to opposition instructions and all that jazz, I'm on the lazier side of things - an old bad habit from a bygone era of being able to 'set and forget' a tactic.

In FM 20 I did trial run positional marking but the results weren't promising so it was eventually ditched. May be the case that 21 is less forgiving.

I think my next step for now is I'm going to set defensive width to wide before I attempt to implement some positional marking. The idea here will be to observe how it affects the positioning of the wider CBs and their zonal marking decisions. Well, I've also dropped Hold Position from the Libero but small changes. 

On the subject of the Libero, analysing heat map, average position etc it seems like we are not getting our first diamond when in possession. 

Ok. For the position of wide defenders, I'm interested in results!

And yes the libero is at the same line than wide defenders...

[Falahk]

This was how I set it up on fm14, once I can buy a new laptop and start playing fm21, I will have a go at recreating this again with Manchester United (if anyone is interested in which players I intend to use, I made a pretty extensive post in the United thread over in gptg) 

I have a feeling it could work even better now with the defend narrow instruction, so that the width setting don't compromise attacking play

 

[NotSoSpecialOne]

This game against Lokomotiv Moscow was the last game before I started tinkering with the defense, so it'll be the baseline.

Here we have the average position without ball (looking at defensive shape)

For the next match against AZ, I opted to try out setting our defensive width to force them inside. We don't really see much difference in the average position of the wider CBs. Maybe slightly wider.

From the same match, we have the avg pos with the ball, as this is the last match I used the Libero(Su) in before switching to BPD(C). As you can see, the Libero's average position is slightly higher than the wider CBs which isn't ideal when we want our defensive trio to also form a diamond.

Here in the return match against Lokomotiv, we're using the BPD(C) instead of the Libero (Su). As you can see, the average position now gives us a flatline, which is an improvement. In individual mentality terms, it went from being cautious - positive - cautious to cautious for all three. Bumping the wider CBs to stopper duty will give Balanced - Cautious - Balanced and with it, possibly the desired diamond shape. This is the next thing to try (and maybe giving them hold position so they're technically not stoppers).

 

Edited November 18, 2020 by NotSoSpecialOne

[Egecann]

14 hours ago, Falahk said:

This was how I set it up on fm14, once I can buy a new laptop and start playing fm21, I will have a go at recreating this again with Manchester United (if anyone is interested in which players I intend to use, I made a pretty extensive post in the United thread over in gptg) 

I have a feeling it could work even better now with the defend narrow instruction, so that the width setting don't compromise attacking play

 

If it works with kadir bekmezci and mehmet topuz it should work with ant player 😀

[Falahk]

3 hours ago, Egecann said:

If it works with kadir bekmezci and mehmet topuz it should work with ant player 😀

Could not find a suitable replacement for Kuyt, so Topuz ended up playing  

I think functional, rather then good would be the best way to describe those two, did the job I needed them to but hardly set the world on fire so to speak 

[Falahk]

On 18/11/2020 at 08:49, NotSoSpecialOne said:

This game against Lokomotiv Moscow was the last game before I started tinkering with the defense, so it'll be the baseline.

Here we have the average position without ball (looking at defensive shape)

For the next match against AZ, I opted to try out setting our defensive width to force them inside. We don't really see much difference in the average position of the wider CBs. Maybe slightly wider.

From the same match, we have the avg pos with the ball, as this is the last match I used the Libero(Su) in before switching to BPD(C). As you can see, the Libero's average position is slightly higher than the wider CBs which isn't ideal when we want our defensive trio to also form a diamond.

Here in the return match against Lokomotiv, we're using the BPD(C) instead of the Libero (Su). As you can see, the average position now gives us a flatline, which is an improvement. In individual mentality terms, it went from being cautious - positive - cautious to cautious for all three. Bumping the wider CBs to stopper duty will give Balanced - Cautious - Balanced and with it, possibly the desired diamond shape. This is the next thing to try (and maybe giving them hold position so they're technically not stoppers).

 

How do you find the narrow back 3? I was never happy with how it worked in the ME for formations that have AML and AMR, back when I tried it in a Co Adriaanse recreation (very similar to your set up but with 2 strikers instead of the AMC)

The wide back 3 also have it's drawbacks, mostly when you are up against a good teams that play 2 strikers, but overall I just felt it worked better 

[RogerC]

On 06/05/2016 at 03:25, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

...

...

Arsenal's squad is a frustrating mis-match at the moment.

Funny how this statement is still valid right now. LOL

 

Great thread, been putting it to use with Arsenal actually.

[NotSoSpecialOne]

On 29/11/2020 at 21:20, Falahk said:

How do you find the narrow back 3? I was never happy with how it worked in the ME for formations that have AML and AMR, back when I tried it in a Co Adriaanse recreation (very similar to your set up but with 2 strikers instead of the AMC)

The wide back 3 also have it's drawbacks, mostly when you are up against a good teams that play 2 strikers, but overall I just felt it worked better 

I can't say I'm happy with the way it is working. The wider CBs often don't pick up the wide attacking players, whether they're instructed to mark them or not, as they'll come quite narrow towards the striker. Against 1 striker formations (that also have AML/AMR), I am thinking about employing either no nonsense full backs or inverted wingbacks on defend. 

[steakfaced]

7 hours ago, NotSoSpecialOne said:

I can't say I'm happy with the way it is working. The wider CBs often don't pick up the wide attacking players, whether they're instructed to mark them or not, as they'll come quite narrow towards the striker. Against 1 striker formations (that also have AML/AMR), I am thinking about employing either no nonsense full backs or inverted wingbacks on defend. 

Huge problem I have as well, caused me to drop my MLs to WBLRs just to give it a chance. Otherwise an AMLR can absolutley rinse you.

[jeppstah]

Hey guys this new tactical masterclass by Johans son Jordi is a really interesting view if you are trying to recreate this in FM21 : 

 

[Cruyffismo]

For the most purists who want to imitate Johan's style to perfection; he used man-markings on important matches. For example, in his last Clásico at the Camp Nou, which he won 3-0, he applied man-marking to Michael Ladrup and Luis Enrique.

[Skywalk3r83]

Hello everybody! After reading this post last week i was tempting to do a creation of my own. It's more of a Louis van Gaal recreation but it's based on Totaalvoetbal(Total Football).
Tested it while i was competing in the FIFA Club World Cup(it's the summer of 2025) and we won it!  We have beaten PSG in the QF and Flamengo in the SF. So what do you guys think?
This weekend I'm testing it further more and will post some updates about it.

 

[JoOSTAR]

8 hours ago, Skywalk3r83 said:

Hello everybody! After reading this post last week i was tempting to do a creation of my own. It's more of a Louis van Gaal recreation but it's based on Totaalvoetbal(Total Football).
Tested it while i was competing in the FIFA Club World Cup(it's the summer of 2025) and we won it!  We have beaten PSG in the QF and Flamengo in the SF. So what do you guys think?
This weekend I'm testing it further more and will post some updates about it.

 

Are you using any specific Player instructions?

[Skywalk3r83]

1 hour ago, JoOSTAR said:

Are you using any specific Player instructions?

Libero: hold position, CD: take fewer risks and stay wider, DLP: dribble less, Winger: cross from byline and aim centre + get further forward, CM: close down more, tackle harder and mark tighter, SS: shoot less often, CF: shoot more often

[Prolix]

8 minutes ago, Skywalk3r83 said:

Libero: hold position

This is counter-intuitive to say the least! Could you describe your thought process?

[Skywalk3r83]

1 minute ago, Prolix said:

This is counter-intuitive to say the least! Could you describe your thought process?

Well I want him to hold his position because there are only two other defenders. That’s it. No roaming forward. 

[Prolix]

5 minutes ago, Skywalk3r83 said:

Well I want him to hold his position because there are only two other defenders. That’s it. No roaming forward. 

Sure, but then why the libero role? 

[Skywalk3r83]

2 minutes ago, Prolix said:

Sure, but then why the libero role? 

Well Danny Blind was a Libero and I want to recreate it as much as possible 👀

[levo in da house]

20 hours ago, Skywalk3r83 said:

Well Danny Blind was a Libero and I want to recreate it as much as possible 👀

Good work bro! 
 

[Skywalk3r83]

37 minutes ago, levo in da house said:

Good work bro! 
 

Wow nice 😊 

[Skywalk3r83]

On 26/06/2021 at 19:05, levo in da house said:

Good work bro! 
 

So did you play more games after those three?  

[levo in da house]

1 hour ago, Skywalk3r83 said:

So did you play more games after those three?  

no :/

[NotSoSpecialOne]

It's been a while, but I felt like I needed spicing up my Coruna save so a return to the 3-4-3 system is on the cards. Thus far I've landed on the following, which is in some areas more aggressive than the old Ajax attempt but in others more passive. Chiefly a rethink about how we defend.

How the results are going so far

Off to a solid start but two very big tests on the horizon (particularly Man City who bought my former academy product come Ballon d'or winner in the summer).

[Skywalk3r83]

3 hours ago, NotSoSpecialOne said:

It's been a while, but I felt like I needed spicing up my Coruna save so a return to the 3-4-3 system is on the cards. Thus far I've landed on the following, which is in some areas more aggressive than the old Ajax attempt but in others more passive. Chiefly a rethink about how we defend.

How the results are going so far

Off to a solid start but two very big tests on the horizon (particularly Man City who bought my former academy product come Ballon d'or winner in the summer).

What PI did u use? Playing around with this as well😄

[Skywalk3r83]

I experimented a bit with the TI and PI of the OP from @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! and I did great. Especially in Europ, beating Dortmund away and thrashed APOEL. Next game is home against PSV. 

Btw I only added Counter and Counter-Press  

Edited July 13, 2021 by Skywalk3r83
Tag added

[NotSoSpecialOne]

8 hours ago, Skywalk3r83 said:

What PI did u use? Playing around with this as well😄

Sorry, it was late here when I posted so I didn't go into detail about my PIs. Will do so now.

Both CB-Stoppers: Stay Wider, Mark Specific Position.

BPD-Co: Mark Specific Position

HB-De: Take More Risks. Close Down Less. Mark Specific Position.

Mez-Su: Take More Risks.

Both W-Su: Mark Specific Position.

In terms of the Mark Specific Position PI, I treat this as pretty fluid - what position is being marked I change before each game (as needed) to suit the opposition. The general gist though is that the Wide CBs mark the wide positions, Wingers mark the full backs. BPD marks the striker and the HB marks the AM, or the second striker if they use one. 

Close Down Less may seem strange on the Half-Back, as the role is naturally very aggressive at closing down opposition and thus straying from position. But I wanted to tone that done to help keep the defensive shape, as I found HB would otherwise the defense with his pressing. I also wanted the movement the half back brings in build up, in particular and I also needed a role that would allow Take More Risks to be enabled. Much like Guardiola, my first choice here has the ability to pick out these sorts of low percentage passes and give us another option from deep. The 2nd string doesn't, so when he plays I take it off.

I originally considered an AP-Su in place of the Mez-Su, for the playmaking element. But I was put off by the ball magnetism, so I landed on the Mez-Su with Take More Risks, so that player can still be a pseudo playmaker. Against elite opponents, I'll switch this to a Carrilero instead.

Both first choice wingers have their respective Cuts Inside traits. They'll hold width, for the most part (nothing you can do about wingers pinching in in the final third really) but the trait/role combo gives them more options. Sometimes they'll cut into the half space. Other times they'll look to beat a player on the outside.

I think that covers it all. Not sure how well this all translates to another team, as my Coruna side is one of the better teams in the world, plus you have to be proactive about your marking assignments.

[Skywalk3r83]

35 minutes ago, NotSoSpecialOne said:

Sorry, it was late here when I posted so I didn't go into detail about my PIs. Will do so now.

Both CB-Stoppers: Stay Wider, Mark Specific Position.

BPD-Co: Mark Specific Position

HB-De: Take More Risks. Close Down Less. Mark Specific Position.

Mez-Su: Take More Risks.

Both W-Su: Mark Specific Position.

In terms of the Mark Specific Position PI, I treat this as pretty fluid - what position is being marked I change before each game (as needed) to suit the opposition. The general gist though is that the Wide CBs mark the wide positions, Wingers mark the full backs. BPD marks the striker and the HB marks the AM, or the second striker if they use one. 

Close Down Less may seem strange on the Half-Back, as the role is naturally very aggressive at closing down opposition and thus straying from position. But I wanted to tone that done to help keep the defensive shape, as I found HB would otherwise the defense with his pressing. I also wanted the movement the half back brings in build up, in particular and I also needed a role that would allow Take More Risks to be enabled. Much like Guardiola, my first choice here has the ability to pick out these sorts of low percentage passes and give us another option from deep. The 2nd string doesn't, so when he plays I take it off.

I originally considered an AP-Su in place of the Mez-Su, for the playmaking element. But I was put off by the ball magnetism, so I landed on the Mez-Su with Take More Risks, so that player can still be a pseudo playmaker. Against elite opponents, I'll switch this to a Carrilero instead.

Both first choice wingers have their respective Cuts Inside traits. They'll hold width, for the most part (nothing you can do about wingers pinching in in the final third really) but the trait/role combo gives them more options. Sometimes they'll cut into the half space. Other times they'll look to beat a player on the outside.

I think that covers it all. Not sure how well this all translates to another team, as my Coruna side is one of the better teams in the world, plus you have to be proactive about your marking assignments.

Nice, will look into it and have a go with it😁👍🏻

[Christopher S]

6 hours ago, NotSoSpecialOne said:

nothing you can do about wingers pinching in in the final third really

My greatest hope for FM22 is being able to do something with this. I realize that IRL wingers will often move more narrowly in the final third, but I'd really like it if we were given a choice in the matter. Especially since there are high profile teams (Man City, for example), where wingers hold width regardless of where the ball is, and how far up they are. If I want my wingers to hump the touchline, I should be able to tell them that - and have them do it. 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Christopher S

[RDF Tactics]

6 hours ago, Christopher S said:

My greatest hope for FM22 is being able to do something with this. I realize that IRL wingers will often move more narrowly in the final third, but I'd really like it if we were given a choice in the matter. Especially since there are high profile teams (Man City, for example), where wingers hold width regardless of where the ball is, and how far up they are. If I want my wingers to hump the touchline, I should be able to tell them that - and have them do it. 

agreed! 

[Jean0987654321]

On 14/07/2021 at 06:56, Christopher S said:

My greatest hope for FM22 is being able to do something with this. I realize that IRL wingers will often move more narrowly in the final third, but I'd really like it if we were given a choice in the matter. Especially since there are high profile teams (Man City, for example), where wingers hold width regardless of where the ball is, and how far up they are. If I want my wingers to hump the touchline, I should be able to tell them that - and have them do it. 

OTOH I want my wingers to stay inside while attacking...and if I set them to Sit Narrower, I expect them to do so when attacking. Too many times I have a 343 system which breaks because my wingers are too wide from the striker and can't support him...

Edited August 18, 2021 by Jean0987654321

[Joey Numbaz]

I experimented with this as well FM20 over the last real life month or so, 2nd season in with Everton. Just decided to go cold turkey one day as I was far exceeding board expectations, and looking great for Champions League re-qualification anyway. It went really nicely. Messing around with the PIs for the MCL and MCR a lot, I changed them up almost every game. I had everyone but Haaland shoot less often too. I signed Eljif Elmas to be the W-A on the right, but Richarlison played so well in that role. He ended up scoring 10 EPL goals in just 26 games (23 starts), and I don't think he had any before the switch. 5 PoM awards too. I absolutely recommend someone with great work rate and great for a winger tackling on the wings if you are doing this - so much responsibility there. Elmas is so well rounded that he fit the mold there too, but he only played 8 league games at MR because Richarlison refused to leave the lineup. I nearly sold Richarlison at the winter deadline, but he scored 3 goals in his previous 2 games (only 150 minutes played) and I was like, nah, let's keep him. The deal was agreed to and I backed out last minute. He did not disappoint, other than getting hurt 2 months later, but I digress.

Adding it all up

EPL: 17-4, 3 draws; 47-19 goal differential (31-11 after a 16-8 start, took some time to learn it up) - I had started out 7-1, 1 draw, 23-4 goal differential. But I had been playing that tactic since the previous March. Maybe I should have stuck with that one?  The schedule had been fairly easy to that point, including 2 of the eventual relagatees. I was 2-1, 2 draws the final 5 games across EPL/CL, 7-5 goals. So it felt like time for a switch.

Champions League: Won the group of death (Bayern, Barcelona, Inter, Everton) easily, 3-0, 1 draw after switching to this tactic - 7-3 goal differential. I was losing 2-0 in the Bayern game at halftime and won 3-2, finally getting the win after being down 2 at halftime achievement! But lost 0-0, 0-1 to Marseille in an awful luck round of 16. Outshot them 14-8, 2-1 CCC, 56% possession in the second leg at home, their goal came from a long shot. Brutal. The old tactic I had beat Bayern 3-0 and drew with Barca 2-2.

FA Cup: Terrible first round loss to Norwich at home, 0-1. Thought I could get away with not playing the full strength side and it bit me.

Then of course I got bored, lost to Norwich 1-0 again (talk about a boogey team), had 2nd place locked up for the most part with no other competitions and wanted to play a libero tactic. So I tried one version then tweaked it after two games to push the DR to MR and mixed up the roles some to compensate. Finished the last 3 games out with this. The only tweak is Digne was hurt so I played Gvardiol at DL, Mina or Kana or Ajer at DCL and AJer or Kana at MCR. The only player instruction is the IWR gets further forward. I still used a lot of the principles from the 3-6-1 system especially on the defensive side of things, as well as only a Winger on the right side. It's surprisingly well balanced for an asymmetric tactic. Kulusevski has comes deep to get ball, which I think helps out in terms of keeping the tactic solid, but I still instruct him to get forward when he can to stretch the attack on that side of the pitch.

I won the last 5 games, outscoring opponents 12-1 - Camavinga with 2 goals in his first ever game as a DC as the Libero - Attack! Both were assisted by free kicks but who cares! Those games included huge wins over City (Stones got red carded out when we were already up 1-0, but both of his yellows were him mugging Haaland to avoid a breakaway), who is going to the Champions League Final after beating Liverpool 1-0, 0-0 in the semis, and Liverpool who won the league with 98 points - 2 games in 3 days there. The one goal allowed in those 5 games was a corner against Liverpool, when we were already up 2-0. Liverpool only gave up 16 league goals all year and we got 2 in this game.

We also drew a lot of fouls and cards - 67 total fouls and 16 yellow cards for our opponents in 5 games.

Did 18-year old Talles Magno like this tactic as a DLF "support"? I'd say yes:

As well as Haaland as the "attack" duty guy:

Thinking about it a little more, I was 12-1-1, outscoring opponents 35-5 when not using the 3-6-1 ... and (not counting the League Cup games where I played bad opponents and/or my own kids) 20-6, with 5 draws, 54-24 when using the 3-6-1. Maybe I need to tweak something in the team instructions to refine it a little more, especially defensively. Also, against the Champions League squads in and out of league, I was 5-3, 2 draws and 12-10 goals when using the 3-6-1. Against everyone else, 15-3, 3 draws, 42-14 with that tactic. I think it can be tightened up some, especially against good teams. But I am not exactly sure of how while keeping that formation. Better defenders for one. Gvardiol-Keane-Mina and sometimes Ajer in back isn't nearly as good as the rest of the team. I feel like the selling out press wise makes sense with such a heavy midfield presence.

Edited August 20, 2021 by Joey Numbaz

[Skywalk3r83]

15 hours ago, Joey Numbaz said:

I experimented with this as well FM20 over the last real life month or so, 2nd season in with Everton. Just decided to go cold turkey one day as I was far exceeding board expectations, and looking great for Champions League re-qualification anyway. It went really nicely. Messing around with the PIs for the MCL and MCR a lot, I changed them up almost every game. I had everyone but Haaland shoot less often too. I signed Eljif Elmas to be the W-A on the right, but Richarlison played so well in that role. He ended up scoring 10 EPL goals in just 26 games (23 starts), and I don't think he had any before the switch. 5 PoM awards too. I absolutely recommend someone with great work rate and great for a winger tackling on the wings if you are doing this - so much responsibility there. Elmas is so well rounded that he fit the mold there too, but he only played 8 league games at MR because Richarlison refused to leave the lineup. I nearly sold Richarlison at the winter deadline, but he scored 3 goals in his previous 2 games (only 150 minutes played) and I was like, nah, let's keep him. The deal was agreed to and I backed out last minute. He did not disappoint, other than getting hurt 2 months later, but I digress.

Adding it all up

EPL: 17-4, 3 draws; 47-19 goal differential (31-11 after a 16-8 start, took some time to learn it up) - I had started out 7-1, 1 draw, 23-4 goal differential. But I had been playing that tactic since the previous March. Maybe I should have stuck with that one?  The schedule had been fairly easy to that point, including 2 of the eventual relagatees. I was 2-1, 2 draws the final 5 games across EPL/CL, 7-5 goals. So it felt like time for a switch.

Champions League: Won the group of death (Bayern, Barcelona, Inter, Everton) easily, 3-0, 1 draw after switching to this tactic - 7-3 goal differential. I was losing 2-0 in the Bayern game at halftime and won 3-2, finally getting the win after being down 2 at halftime achievement! But lost 0-0, 0-1 to Marseille in an awful luck round of 16. Outshot them 14-8, 2-1 CCC, 56% possession in the second leg at home, their goal came from a long shot. Brutal. The old tactic I had beat Bayern 3-0 and drew with Barca 2-2.

FA Cup: Terrible first round loss to Norwich at home, 0-1. Thought I could get away with not playing the full strength side and it bit me.

Then of course I got bored, lost to Norwich 1-0 again (talk about a boogey team), had 2nd place locked up for the most part with no other competitions and wanted to play a libero tactic. So I tried one version then tweaked it after two games to push the DR to MR and mixed up the roles some to compensate. Finished the last 3 games out with this. The only tweak is Digne was hurt so I played Gvardiol at DL, Mina or Kana or Ajer at DCL and AJer or Kana at MCR. The only player instruction is the IWR gets further forward. I still used a lot of the principles from the 3-6-1 system especially on the defensive side of things, as well as only a Winger on the right side. It's surprisingly well balanced for an asymmetric tactic. Kulusevski has comes deep to get ball, which I think helps out in terms of keeping the tactic solid, but I still instruct him to get forward when he can to stretch the attack on that side of the pitch.

I won the last 5 games, outscoring opponents 12-1 - Camavinga with 2 goals in his first ever game as a DC as the Libero - Attack! Both were assisted by free kicks but who cares! Those games included huge wins over City (Stones got red carded out when we were already up 1-0, but both of his yellows were him mugging Haaland to avoid a breakaway), who is going to the Champions League Final after beating Liverpool 1-0, 0-0 in the semis, and Liverpool who won the league with 98 points - 2 games in 3 days there. The one goal allowed in those 5 games was a corner against Liverpool, when we were already up 2-0. Liverpool only gave up 16 league goals all year and we got 2 in this game.

We also drew a lot of fouls and cards - 67 total fouls and 16 yellow cards for our opponents in 5 games.

Did 18-year old Talles Magno like this tactic as a DLF "support"? I'd say yes:

As well as Haaland as the "attack" duty guy:

Thinking about it a little more, I was 12-1-1, outscoring opponents 35-5 when not using the 3-6-1 ... and (not counting the League Cup games where I played bad opponents and/or my own kids) 20-6, with 5 draws, 54-24 when using the 3-6-1. Maybe I need to tweak something in the team instructions to refine it a little more, especially defensively. Also, against the Champions League squads in and out of league, I was 5-3, 2 draws and 12-10 goals when using the 3-6-1. Against everyone else, 15-3, 3 draws, 42-14 with that tactic. I think it can be tightened up some, especially against good teams. But I am not exactly sure of how while keeping that formation. Better defenders for one. Gvardiol-Keane-Mina and sometimes Ajer in back isn't nearly as good as the rest of the team. I feel like the selling out press wise makes sense with such a heavy midfield presence.

Nice! What PI’s do you have with the 3511? 

[steakfaced]

16 hours ago, Joey Numbaz said:

 

I have a Lyon save on FM19 where I play such a similar formation and it's absolutely wild. The wide CBs struggle to close down so if the opposition can get it to the flanks fast and overload they do well. But it rains goals and I feel like it's the only formation where I've ever gotten wingers to play like out and out wingers and just kill a game. My last CL final we won 6-1!

I keep the back 3 but use a W/A-CM/D-DLP/S-W/A midfield line. AMC/A, and then two separate forwards. It was mostly out of necessity, I had so many CBs and no good fullbacks, and many great wide players and forwards. It's massive.I use very attacking tho, with the theory that the wingers would sit high on the fullbacks in build up anyways, and that we would just try to overpower them with players in their midfield attack.

[Joey Numbaz]

On 21/08/2021 at 08:20, Skywalk3r83 said:

Nice! What PI’s do you have with the 3511? 

Very player dependent. I try to not do anything that conflicts with a player's PPMs so they can do their thing.

I kept less urgent pressing for the middle DC and MC (DLP)

I have both MCR/MCL get further forward if they are capable. I don't have them hold position, which works for my players. At least one of them getting forward is needed to stretch the attack in central midfield. And when both do you get interchanging partnerships which also helps to make the attack more dynamic.

Everyone who isn't a centerback gets shoot less, except for the striker (the DLP has this by default).

 

Edited August 23, 2021 by Joey Numbaz