Digging a small club out of debt.

[Shi Xiansheng]

I'm managing Curzon Ashton in FM 16.  I managed to get promoted to the National League, finished 16th in my first season in the division, then escaped relegation only on goal difference in my second. 

It's now May 15th.  I let a few players go and created about 900 pounds/week of free space on the wage bill.  I had been scouting players with a view to bringing a few in in order to finish higher up the table this time around.  My board, however, have just announced the budget for next season, and they've slashed the payroll budget by about 2000 pounds/week, putting me instantly 995 pounds/week over budget.  That means no new arrivals (excepting loans) and I'm presumably expected to let a few more go to meet expectations. 

The club has already been taken over once during my tenure, and the new owner has been injecting cash at irregular intervals to meet costs.  I'm now 539,000 pounds in debt with no sign things might improve.  I had the lowest attendance in the division last season, tiny compared to what many other clubs are getting.  My reputation is low and results have been poor, so this is not surprising, but do the game's settings for club reputation pretty much doom me to low gates?  Is there any way to get out of the mess? 

All I can think of is A) get taken over again or B) get promoted.  A is pure luck, while B, with my squad, would presumably be mostly luck, probably with the addition of tactical genius beyond my experience.  Any advice?  Should I let several (or more) players go in order to slash the wage bill dramatically and just try to stay up every year?  Persist with a wage bill over budget?  Abandon the save?

[santy001]

The reality is that most clubs at that level just exist in debt, or with an owner making up the shortfall.

The best way to go about it is to focus on the physicals while in the lower leagues. You'd be amazed at how a couple of pacey forwards, high stamina midfielders and strong defenders can turn you from relegation to promotion in those leagues.

I prefer to focus on young players who are free agents. It gives some potential for resale value. As its FM16 you may be able to arrange pre-season friendlies with big clubs for extra cash still, but I'm not sure if that was fixed by then.

Once you're promoted though, as a smaller club you tend to hit a spot where you can be somewhat profitable if you run on a budget.

[XaW]

Another thing that can make you some money is a decent cup run. At least if you get an away match to a Premiership side.

[Wee Haribo]

Whenever I manage a small team I tend not to buy any players just get the best of loan players available to you. I only do this until I move up the leagues and start making a profit due to cup runs and league titles. The players I had on loan their contracts run out with their parent club and I offer them a contract. Most of the time they will sign for you.

[Jellico73]

Friendlies against big teams.

Yes, you will get crushed, but you'll like the gate receipts.

Works for you U18 team as well, you may need to spend 10K to play say, the Brentford U18 team, but you'll make 14-16K on the backend.

[Blah_1123]

5 hours ago, XaW said:

Another thing that can make you some money is a decent cup run. At least if you get an away match to a Premiership side.

Interesting, I didn't realise that. Do you just get an x% cut of gate receipts in any cup match? I didn't think you got much money from away games.

[alanschu14]

4 hours ago, Wee Haribo said:

Whenever I manage a small team I tend not to buy any players just get the best of loan players available to you. I only do this until I move up the leagues and start making a profit due to cup runs and league titles. The players I had on loan their contracts run out with their parent club and I offer them a contract. Most of the time they will sign for you.

I found this to be super valuable in my games in England. Especially if there's also an opportunity to get an affiliation which depending on the club can net you some additional money that pays for 2-3 of your own players!

But I was able to quickly (and probably artificially haha) move up the ladder in FM2016 by aggressively scouring for high quality loan candidates. Many of the leagues 2 or 3 levels higher than me had talented players that just weren't going to get any playing time with their first club. I actually was able to secure Callum Chettle from Peterborough (who got into Championship and stayed there) for my team after 3 straight promotions (Vanarama N/S, Vanarama National, League Two). They were also my senior affiliate so I always got him for free. I was kind of proud when he was able to snag a contract worth a few hundred thousand pounds a year after that ^_^

1 minute ago, Blah_1123 said:

Interesting, I didn't realise that. Do you just get an x% cut of gate receipts in any cup match? I didn't think you got much money from away games.

I think it only happens once you get to the third round, but gate receipts are indeed split. I think it's 45-45-10. Playing a club like Man Utd or Arsenal can snag you like a million plus pounds.

[XaW]

5 minutes ago, Blah_1123 said:

Interesting, I didn't realise that. Do you just get an x% cut of gate receipts in any cup match? I didn't think you got much money from away games.

Yeah, as @alanschu14 writes, if you happen to get a top team away you can be safe for a few seasons. In my Marine game I played Tottenham away and got just short of a million pound.

[WorcesterLegend]

i have the same dilema here, im playing as sant andreu, i started with almost no players and after some free transfers i got near the salary budget but after the first month im at red in the 6 middle digits range, i dont really know how to turn this around since i dont want to holiday a year again...

[alanschu14]

37 minutes ago, XaW said:

Yeah, as @alanschu14 writes, if you happen to get a top team away you can be safe for a few seasons. In my Marine game I played Tottenham away and got just short of a million pound.

Is there a feature to ask to change venues? I mean sometimes I get drawn as the home team and I'd really rather be the away team because of the gate split! Hahaha.

My first season at Reims I got a huge financial windfall for winning the Coupe de France. I got €2 million in prize money, but also an additional €1 million+ for playing at neutral Stade de France which had a very beefy capacity.

[Spurs08]

50 minutes ago, Blah_1123 said:

Interesting, I didn't realise that. Do you just get an x% cut of gate receipts in any cup match? I didn't think you got much money from away games.

It depends entirely on the competition. In the FA and League cups in England, both teams get 45% of the get revenue no matter who was at home. So if you play away to a PL side with a 50k attendance and tickets at £30 each, you get £675k.

[michaeltmurrayuk]

11 hours ago, Shi Xiansheng said:

I'm managing Curzon Ashton in FM 16.  I managed to get promoted to the National League, finished 16th in my first season in the division, then escaped relegation only on goal difference in my second. 

It's now May 15th.  I let a few players go and created about 900 pounds/week of free space on the wage bill.  I had been scouting players with a view to bringing a few in in order to finish higher up the table this time around.  My board, however, have just announced the budget for next season, and they've slashed the payroll budget by about 2000 pounds/week, putting me instantly 995 pounds/week over budget.  That means no new arrivals (excepting loans) and I'm presumably expected to let a few more go to meet expectations. 

The club has already been taken over once during my tenure, and the new owner has been injecting cash at irregular intervals to meet costs.  I'm now 539,000 pounds in debt with no sign things might improve.  I had the lowest attendance in the division last season, tiny compared to what many other clubs are getting.  My reputation is low and results have been poor, so this is not surprising, but do the game's settings for club reputation pretty much doom me to low gates?  Is there any way to get out of the mess? 

All I can think of is A) get taken over again or B) get promoted.  A is pure luck, while B, with my squad, would presumably be mostly luck, probably with the addition of tactical genius beyond my experience.  Any advice?  Should I let several (or more) players go in order to slash the wage bill dramatically and just try to stay up every year?  Persist with a wage bill over budget?  Abandon the save?

As others have said you'll generally lose money in non-league football, getting promoted to the Football League is your best bet to stabilize your finances long-term.

To reduce your expenses try only to sign key players on part-time contracts, everyone else should be on non-contract terms so you only pay them if they play, also use the loan system - you want to bring what players you can on loan with no wages, ideally you'll want first teamers if you cannot get them at least get some to stick on the bench as they won't cost you money.

Making progress in the FA Cup and FA Trophy can bring in some money (though promotion is more important long term than a cup run) - getting your FA Cup games on TV or being drawn away to bigger sides in Rounds One onwards can net you a decent amount of money, whilst making it to the FA Trophy final see's you go to Wembley and that can bring in a load of money, as can making it to the playoff Final (if it's at Wembley).

You can also bring money in during pre-season from friendlies - if you have a large enough stadium you can fill then arrange home friendlies with teams that will earn you the most money (though I cannot remember if FM16 reduced the payout or it was a later one - in later versions the expenses of hosting a home friendly can outstrip the income earned, in that case arrange away friendlies as whilst the income is less it is guaranteed - so you may only get £10-20K a game but it adds up).

[Shi Xiansheng]

I don't want to sound ungrateful at all for the responses, but unfortunately most don't really help me.  I know how to cut expenses somewhat and generate some income, but it's all just a drop in the bucket because it doesn't answer the central question. 

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough: the question is, is there a realistic way to progress?  That is, is it worth it?  Obviously I don't instantly want a massive budget or for it to be easy, but I'd like to have the feeling that I'm going somewhere or that a goal is reasonably obtainable with enough work.  All the recommendations here would have me still around the bottom of the division (or relegated!) and still hemorrhaging money, just perhaps less quickly, with the situation still basically the same.  This more or less confirms my suspicions:

5 hours ago, michaeltmurrayuk said:

As others have said you'll generally lose money in non-league football, getting promoted to the Football League is your best bet to stabilize your finances long-term.

I'm sure those more experienced might be able to figure out how to go about doing that, but there's no doubt that my squad is among the worst four or five in the division even after years of building and focus on physical and "swing" attributes, and I don't have the know-how to jump straight to the playoff places. 

My intention was to continue building and reach first, say, a mid-table finish, then crawl up the league over a few seasons, hoping my attendances increase in the meantime so that the board would slowly increase my budget.  And the attendances are the most frustrating thing: I realize that the clubs with attendances in the thousands are still losing money, but when my attendances are a small fraction of the next-lowest in the league, how can I be expected to make anything?  I assume the game has simply assigned Curzon Ashton a pitifully small reputation (its being their first season reaching a division as high as the National North when the game begins) and that this keeps attendances relatively small regardless of where on the pyramid they play and what results are.  I was expecting promotion to increase attendances substantially, but they went up only maybe 10 or 15 on average.  Surely even away fans would swell that a bit?  Even if I did get promoted to the Football League, would I be hosting much bigger clubs with only 280 or so paying fans?

I certainly could tighten the belt somewhat, but nothing too drastic without gutting the squad and likely going back down.  Getting decent loanees is really difficult: even U-21s at clubs one division above me usually refuse to come (presumably due to the aforementioned low reputation).  I don't want to schedule friendlies against big sides for cash, as it feels like an exploit (santy001 referred to its being "fixed," telling me it probably shouldn't be possible).  If I'm automatically given a friendly against Wolves U-21s, fine, but I only schedule friendlies against sides at my level or below.  And deep cup runs are obviously beyond me.

So with some decent signings and decent tactics, is it reasonable to expect a promotion down the line?  The former would require my board not slashing my budget much more; obviously you guys can't predict their behavior accurately, but is that a realistic expectation?  Basically, is it the case that people who play LLM either A) achieve rapid, successive promotions due to their brilliance or B) just happily make do with little progress or C) just have short stints at their clubs?  Or is D) gradual but appreciable progress achievable?

[Äktsjon Männ]

Most clubs at that level have a ceiling to how much they can grow naturally. It's determined by their facilities, financial backing, reputation and most importantly the location. You might expect Curzon Ashton to draw more fans after promotion to National Conference but would they really? A small town in Greater Manchester and a team playing at a lousy little stadium with few seats and it's not like conference football is that much of a draw in the first place.

The above does not mean you cannot advance beyond a clubs natural ceiling - obviously you can because people still do the rags to riches challenges successfully. But that does require overachieving to quite unrealistic degree. You need to rapidly shoot up to the bigger leagues where there are higher financial benefits and survive long enough to grow your reputation which then allows you to grow further. The reality is that most clubs at regional level don't ever plan or even want to get successive promotions because they know it's not financially sustainable. It's easier and more realistic just to pick a club with a higher ceiling from the start. A club that for example has an all-seater stadium and can draw reasonable attendances. One that is profitable at the level they start at. It's not the ultimate challenge you might be looking for but it is the more realistic approach in my opinion.

[Rien102]

 

Il y a 10 heures, Shi Xiansheng a dit :

hoping my attendances increase in the meantime so that the board would slowly increase my budget. 

Since the key is to put some butts into your stands, I would suggest something that I did in FM16 and worked.  I was playing Chelmsford, VNS.  The crowd was around 600/match in the stands and despite having the 2nd lowest wages in the league, I was struggling moneywise.  I was playing super defensive football because I didn't have much of a good attack, especially on the left side.  After season 1, I was still in VNS, far from being able to get promoted and all came back to the money.  In the board confidence window, in the "match" sub-window, at the top, I saw something.  The fans were thinking that I was playing an "uninspired football".  That got me thinking: of course, I was playing uninspired football, for me, shutting down the game to get a 0-0 score was like: "YAY!  I survived again!"  So, I changed my playing style into a super counter-attacking football, all based around kick-and-run approach with hefty hail mary passing to the front all the time.  I needed to have more butts in the seats... and it did!  No more 0-0 scores, all the games had a minumum of 4-5 goals scored, all the time.  It was hard for the hearth but, for the fans, it was exciting.  I didn't get any higher on the league table than the year before, I was around 15th-16th place.  The direct result though was that the average attendance went from 600 to 800!  33% more!  The result was a higher income.  I remember I stayed three more seasons total before promotion but at the end of season two, the money pinching and the collecting coke cans just to pay for the paints for the pitch lines were over.

[tedthelabrador]

Just focus on bringing high PA youngsters on free transfers. If they play well, you can sell them for big dosh. Recently, I sold 3 players for around £500k each and they were all brought in on free transfers (admittedly this was in the SPL, so you'll probably be earning less than that) and we're in a big profit at the moment despite our income from other sources being awful.

[michaeltmurrayuk]

15 hours ago, Shi Xiansheng said:

I don't want to sound ungrateful at all for the responses, but unfortunately most don't really help me.  I know how to cut expenses somewhat and generate some income, but it's all just a drop in the bucket because it doesn't answer the central question. 

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough: the question is, is there a realistic way to progress?  That is, is it worth it?  Obviously I don't instantly want a massive budget or for it to be easy, but I'd like to have the feeling that I'm going somewhere or that a goal is reasonably obtainable with enough work.  All the recommendations here would have me still around the bottom of the division (or relegated!) and still hemorrhaging money, just perhaps less quickly, with the situation still basically the same.  This more or less confirms my suspicions:

It depends - have a look at dafuge's challenge in the challenge forum it's perfectly possible to get sides promoted up the leagues. (some people can fly up the leagues, others can take years to move up each league).

For the most part it depends on what you want from the game, if you are having fun then carry on if it's no longer fun treading water then you might be better starting again (or looking to move clubs) using what you have learnt to do better next time.

It also depends on how bad your finances are if the board are covering your loses and you are able to improve your team then you should eventually dig yourself out, however if the board aren't fully covering your loses and are reducing your budget to levels where you cannot compete then it might be worth jumping ship or starting again.

[Shi Xiansheng]

On 4/4/2018 at 18:00, Äktsjon Männ said:

Most clubs at that level have a ceiling to how much they can grow naturally. It's determined by their facilities, financial backing, reputation and most importantly the location. You might expect Curzon Ashton to draw more fans after promotion to National Conference but would they really? A small town in Greater Manchester and a team playing at a lousy little stadium with few seats and it's not like conference football is that much of a draw in the first place.

The above does not mean you cannot advance beyond a clubs natural ceiling - obviously you can because people still do the rags to riches challenges successfully. But that does require overachieving to quite unrealistic degree. You need to rapidly shoot up to the bigger leagues where there are higher financial benefits and survive long enough to grow your reputation which then allows you to grow further. The reality is that most clubs at regional level don't ever plan or even want to get successive promotions because they know it's not financially sustainable. It's easier and more realistic just to pick a club with a higher ceiling from the start. A club that for example has an all-seater stadium and can draw reasonable attendances. One that is profitable at the level they start at. It's not the ultimate challenge you might be looking for but it is the more realistic approach in my opinion.

Yeah, I was of course including location in my discussion of reputation there.  I don't know the geography that well, but I'm aware that Ashton-under-Lyne is no metropolis, while the high saturation of clubs in Greater Manchester presumably plays a part too.  I wasn't expecting my attendances to double overnight or anything, but I guess I expected more ticket sales than I got.

Unless I managed to pull off something extraordinary, there will be no rapidly shooting up to the bigger leagues for me, so along with what you say about picking a club with a higher ceiling, this sounds like a vote for abandoning the save to me.

18 hours ago, michaeltmurrayuk said:

For the most part it depends on what you want from the game, if you are having fun then carry on if it's no longer fun treading water then you might be better starting again (or looking to move clubs) using what you have learnt to do better next time.

It also depends on how bad your finances are if the board are covering your loses and you are able to improve your team then you should eventually dig yourself out, however if the board aren't fully covering your loses and are reducing your budget to levels where you cannot compete then it might be worth jumping ship or starting again.

It's somewhere between having fun carrying on and not having fun treading water.  I feel like I've taken the club pretty far and it's a good time, but then the brush with relegation spooked me and the board slashed my budget.  I'm not cackling with glee at a poor campaign (though I am of course relieved to avoid relegation!), but I'm not hating it either.  As I said, I just want to feel I'm going somewhere, even if slowly or indirectly.

I see people talk about getting successive promotions, or spending no more than two or three seasons in a division at least up to a fairly high level, and I don't expect anything like that.  I don't want to languish in a series of relegation battles either.  I want something in between: like, spending three to five seasons in a division like the National League before achieving promotion.

I knew the club's finances were insecure, but even still, the budget cut took me off guard.  And that's the main thing: is it possible that a combination of the currently poor finances and my poor performance this year led the board to make the decision, and after a year of saving some money on wages they might consider loosening up again?  Or does the cut indicate that it's just diminishing funds from here on out?

I think I'll play one more season just to see what I can get out of another year with this squad without real reinforcements.  (Though I may stay over budget.  How awful are the consequences of that?)  If I don't see some tangible progress in that year, whether a much higher finish or a bigger budget or whatever, I'll call it quits.  Maybe keep the save to play around with later, but it's my first one, so it's probably about time I take what I've learned elsewhere anyway.  Maybe give Shenhua a shot.  Thanks for your responses, guys.

[Äktsjon Männ]

27 minutes ago, Shi Xiansheng said:

I knew the club's finances were insecure, but even still, the budget cut took me off guard.  And that's the main thing: is it possible that a combination of the currently poor finances and my poor performance this year led the board to make the decision, and after a year of saving some money on wages they might consider loosening up again?  Or does the cut indicate that it's just diminishing funds from here on out?

They may and probably will give you a bigger budget if you perform better. However it will just plunge the club into more debt. Eventually you'll need those promotions or a sugar daddy contribution. Then if you do get promoted you're going to need a stadium upgrade meaning future loan repayments.  

Personally I don't think it's a situation where you can gradually grow. It's too marginal a league and the club is too small. However, as many people have pointed out there is a decent chance you luck out. A nice cup draw or a more generous board etc. You can't go bankrupt in FM and you have no direct control over finances anyway so as long as you're staying within budgets and able to assemble a team you can carry on and hope for a breakthrough.

[bigmattb28]

On 4/4/2018 at 11:00, Äktsjon Männ said:

A club that for example has an all-seater stadium and can draw reasonable attendances. One that is profitable at the level they start at. It's not the ultimate challenge you might be looking for but it is the more realistic approach in my opinion.

Gateshead springs to mind.

[WorcesterLegend]

its all about luck really, my first two years in 6th tier the team got a massive loss to the point that i had almost no room to improve the team (first year the team got to 9th and the second finished at 15th so i did got a problem) the team was near the million in debt and a take over took place, the new chairman paid the loan, the debt and put around 60K in the bank, this made the team jump to 9th again and by the 4th season i was crushing FC United in the Playoff and got to the 5th tier, after that the team just got rolling in a year one consolidation and year two promotion until we got to championship where stuff got nasty with players demanding way too much for the finances of the team, right now surviving for a 4th year in the championship with 15M in the bank, with 2 loans rolling for the new stadium in the 2nd season in championship and an expansion for more seats. i did got to the ceiling of this team because i just cant leave the 18-20th place, i know i will need 5 more years at least to get to the premier but im having fun by just fighting to stay in the championship, and the money is rolling good, i just need 1 good regens every 2 seasons so i can keep going