Some frustration

[IanGould]

After really enjoying FM19, I looked forward to playing the 2020 version.  However, I must admit to getting a little frustrated with it now.  Simply because, it seems that all I change, every tactic or style I try, either pre or during matches doesn't seem to make any difference !

I'd appreciate any comments back on this or perhaps other people have similar thoughts?  After all is said and done, I very much want to get back to enjoying FM again if I can.

[sorrenmills]

Lots of people do. There is a very large feedback thread on the board here detailing people's issues (perceived or otherwise) with this year's effort as well as a swathe of Steam reviews. At the moment the solution is: wait for a patch, whenever that may be.

[HUNT3R]

19 minutes ago, IanGould said:

Simply because, it seems that all I change, every tactic or style I try, either pre or during matches doesn't seem to make any difference !

You haven't given us a lot to go on here. If you can make a more detailed post with how you're setting up and what your issues are, you can get advice. Plenty of helpful users around. I would suggest posting in the tactics forum and details on the exact issues you have.

[Overparduffer]

Are you giving your players any time to adapt to the new tactics? Pick one and then make small adjustments in the team instructions if it's not working from one game to the next. I.E. getting burned over the top, turn on offside trap or back up the defensive line. Tactics definitely seem to make a difference to me. Sometimes your team will just lay a stinker but otherwise tactics have an impact.

If you're still struggling, download a few solid tactics online and see how they are set up.

[bitzu_rock]

I thought this might be the right place to post this....I used a 4-4-2 attacking wide tactic....in friendlies i scored about 3.5 goals per match....

This is the first game of the season....ok..i understand that i could not win...but...guys...25 shots....8 on target....no goal....and if you look what chances were missed...head hurts...

Also on another save i used a 4-4-2 balanced control possession tactic and i had results like this...a lot of shots and no goal or maximum 1 goal...

At least make it realistic..even if i do not score..let it be only 5-6 shots (2-3 on target)....

 

 

Edited January 9, 2020 by bitzu_rock

[XaW]

9 hours ago, bitzu_rock said:

I thought this might be the right place to post this....I used a 4-4-2 attacking wide tactic....in friendlies i scored about 3.5 goals per match....

This is the first game of the season....ok..i understand that i could not win...but...guys...25 shots....8 on target....no goal....and if you look what chances were missed...head hurts...

Also on another save i used a 4-4-2 balanced control possession tactic and i had results like this...a lot of shots and no goal or maximum 1 goal...

At least make it realistic..even if i do not score..let it be only 5-6 shots (2-3 on target)....

Many shots does not equal many goals. If all those are rushed shots from 25 meters out under pressure against a controlled defence, then you are not creating chances. Take a look at each individual shot and the situation surrounding it. Could the player have done something else? Are there any options for creating space? Are the players moving around as you would like? Without seeing each shot then there could be several instances.

You say you play attacking, so I'm guessing you have a high tempo, in that case strikers will often have limited time to take the shot. In 4-4-2 the roles are also important, and perhaps you don't give your players any way to recycle possession, so they will shot because of a lack of better options. Maybe having a role being more defensive and allow the more attacking players to pass back and restart is a good option. Perhaps your players are unsuited to play in the way you have set them up.

There are load of different possibilities for why you don't score. The best cause of action is to analyze it and see if you can see it. If you cannot see why, then you should head into the tactics subforum here and show screenshots of all your tactical instructions and explain what is happening and the situations you don't like. Then someone will probably be able to give you some points you can try out to see if they work or not.

[bitzu_rock]

@XaW I do not use high tempo...in any tactic i used with 4-4-2 is the same amount of shots. My point is this an unrealistic match stats...so many shots and only 1,2 or no goals...happening so often....it is not about the tactic...you simply cannot have more than 20 shots and score no goal in real life...that means the team has a good attack and that leads to one or two goals at least...but anyway...let's leave it like that and say i am using a wrong tactic  

[Tetsuro P12]

26 minutes ago, bitzu_rock said:

@XaW I do not use high tempo...in any tactic i used with 4-4-2 is the same amount of shots. My point is this an unrealistic match stats...so many shots and only 1,2 or no goals...happening so often....it is not about the tactic...you simply cannot have more than 20 shots and score no goal in real life...that means the team has a good attack and that leads to one or two goals at least...but anyway...let's leave it like that and say i am using a wrong tactic  

https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&client=firefox-b-d&sxsrf=ACYBGNSezaJ8gZm2YEiL_uj8GUkv0sIirA%3A1578781600516&ei=oEsaXp6YH4TgkgXF-6DwAg&q=partite+campionato&oq=partite+campionato&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0i131i20i263j0i131j0i131i20i263j0l5j0i131j0.4587.7049..7213...0.2..0.96.1515.18......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j35i39j35i39i19j0i131i67j0i67j0i20i263.RiPgQZejz-c&ved=0ahUKEwie6Ofjy_zmAhUEsKQKHcU9CC4Q4dUDCAo&uact=5#sie=m;/g/11fmp9cd06;2;/m/03zv9;dt;fp;1;;

[Maldini's Heir]

On 09/01/2020 at 00:00, IanGould said:

After really enjoying FM19, I looked forward to playing the 2020 version.  However, I must admit to getting a little frustrated with it now.  Simply because, it seems that all I change, every tactic or style I try, either pre or during matches doesn't seem to make any difference !

I'd appreciate any comments back on this or perhaps other people have similar thoughts?  After all is said and done, I very much want to get back to enjoying FM again if I can.

It’s so frustrating.

And it’s constant. Just constant disappointment.

The missed chances seem designed more to frustrate than anything. I’m hitting posts, having goals disallowed, missing shots from 5 yards out, shots cleared off the line. 

There’s very few last minute equalisers or winners. It’s all last minute disappointments. They seem to take pleasure in letting my team score a last minute goal only to mock me when it’s disallowed.

People talk about probability but probability should deliver something positive, some hope. It’s all disappointment. Game after game. 

Edited January 11, 2020 by Maldini's Heir

[Tetsuro P12]

7 hours ago, Maldini's Heir said:

People talk about probability but probability should deliver something positive, some hope. It’s all disappointment. Game after game. 

FM20 is not about probability, it's about destiny. It's the 'cheating engine'. I played against a weaker team, first half got dominated, second half changed tactic, I lost. That's it. It was the hand of God. Have fun (me not).

Edited January 12, 2020 by Tetsuro P12

[SOULjah]

On 08/01/2020 at 13:00, IanGould said:

After really enjoying FM19, I looked forward to playing the 2020 version.  However, I must admit to getting a little frustrated with it now.  Simply because, it seems that all I change, every tactic or style I try, either pre or during matches doesn't seem to make any difference !

I'd appreciate any comments back on this or perhaps other people have similar thoughts?  After all is said and done, I very much want to get back to enjoying FM again if I can.

Having had FM on PC since 2009 I believe when it was first released on Steam, distinctly remember walking into GAME and buying the disk and wondering "WTF is Steam" as it was a requirement.

However, FM2019 was the first FM in this time for myself where I hardly allowed myself time to play it due to the constant updates and patches until they had announced FM2020.

I'm in no way suggesting anyone to do this themselves, I know people want the most updated and 'apparent' best at time of release I just found myself getting annoyed with said updates and patches adjusting my game not only against the AI's teams you play against in single player but the devs too.

At the time of writing this, the only updates I have noticed in FM2019 buying a week before FM2020 beta release are advertising, personally I just have a retro perception on single players and would rather play them in the most polished state I can.

The only annoying things are finding player pictures and badges to download for the previous version, by the time the next iteration comes out the 'talented' workshop people most take down the old ones to be replaced by the newer version of FM ones.   

[XaW]

10 hours ago, bitzu_rock said:

@XaW I do not use high tempo...in any tactic i used with 4-4-2 is the same amount of shots. My point is this an unrealistic match stats...so many shots and only 1,2 or no goals...happening so often....it is not about the tactic...you simply cannot have more than 20 shots and score no goal in real life...that means the team has a good attack and that leads to one or two goals at least...but anyway...let's leave it like that and say i am using a wrong tactic  

No, but using attacking mentality equals higher tempo. I mean, I'm playing the game myself and I don't see what you are saying. Of course, I see it every once in a while, but both for me and against depending on how and who I play against.

The ME is not perfect, not the slightest, but the team with the most shots does not necessarily win. I advised you to look at each situation, but from your post I can't see any evidence of you doing that? I also suggested things that could help you out. I were trying to help you spot what happened, but you don't seem to want to figure it out. So, in order for me to know if I should continue to help; Are you looking to vent frustration, or are you looking for help to figure out how to improve things? If it's the first I don't want to waste time, but if it's the latter I'm more than happy to try to help you out.

2 hours ago, Tetsuro P12 said:

FM20 is not about probability, it's about destiny. It's the 'cheating engine'. I played against a weaker team, first half got dominated, second half changed tactic, I lost. That's it. It was the hand of God. Have fun (me not).

I thought you had been told several times by mods that you should stop spreading lies and false claims?

[Tetsuro P12]

26 minutes ago, XaW said:

I thought you had been told several times by mods that you should stop spreading lies and false claims?

You call it 'false', I call it 'opinion'. English should always ban my account if they don't like my opinions, it's their house after all, their rules. I will respect my opinion and my honest way of conduct. They can't ban me from Steam, unfortunately.

Edited January 12, 2020 by Tetsuro P12

[GuitarMan]

26 minutes ago, XaW said:

I thought you had been told several times by mods that you should stop spreading lies and false claims?

@XaW

I think in this case this is an opinion rather than a lie or a false claim. 
 

to all in the thread

just a reminder mods do read the forums and if you see something that you think is posted inappropriately use the report post function and tell us why you have reported it 👍
 

 

[Svenc]

There's nothing cheating in the game though. The perception this is the case is unfortunately likely also one of the reasons SI are cautious when improving their AI. Nobody would play a game perceived as inherently unfair. Except for masochists. In fact the ME's main coder is one of the most purist poeople you can find on this. He takes this personal.

See Maldini's Heir not a shadow of a doubt genuine perception he couldn't score "last Minute Goals". Just as genuine as it is that apparently he cannot beat teams down to ten men. Well, then, here's the Facts: If the AI can, it's becfause their late match switches are better, end of Story. SI have received umpteenth suggestions by their tactical community throughout the years. And the game still is not coded to challenge them exclusively. I don't even engage much there anymore, as what you get to learn there still runs rings around the AI. Get this: Players not engaging too deeply to Keep the game more challenging. Some don't even try (and still generally overperform the AI, oft without realizing…)

Edited January 12, 2020 by Svenc

[Svenc]

12 hours ago, bitzu_rock said:

@XaW you simply cannot have more than 20 shots and score no goal in real life...that means the team has a good attack and that leads to one or two goals at least...but anyway...let's leave it like that and say i am using a wrong tactic  

Whilst it's too easy to amass shots that have a low chance of scoring in-game (watch those set pieces!),  factually untrue.  https://www.theringer.com/soccer/2018/6/27/17511596/2018-world-cup-germany-south-korea-mexico-sweden-elimination The average expectation with 2x shots was 2 Goals, by the way. There is a Goal scored roughly every 10th shot.

However, in Football, ,anagers manage the spaces on a pitch, as opposed to shot counts on some spreadsheet. Conceding the "shot battle" to the opposition can on the occasion actually increase the chance of scoring.

Edited January 12, 2020 by Svenc

[Tetsuro P12]

4 hours ago, Svenc said:

There's nothing cheating in the game though. The perception this is the case is unfortunately likely also one of the reasons SI are cautious when improving their AI. Nobody would play a game perceived as inherently unfair. Except for masochists. In fact the ME's main coder is one of the most purist poeople you can find on this. He takes this personal.

See Maldini's Heir not a shadow of a doubt genuine perception he couldn't score "last Minute Goals". Just as genuine as it is that apparently he cannot beat teams down to ten men. Well, then, here's the Facts: If the AI can, it's becfause their late match switches are better, end of Story. SI have received umpteenth suggestions by their tactical community throughout the years. And the game still is not coded to challenge them exclusively. I don't even engage much there anymore, as what you get to learn there still runs rings around the AI. Get this: Players not engaging too deeply to Keep the game more challenging. Some don't even try (and still generally overperform the AI, oft without realizing…)

I think you interpret the 'cheat' term wrongly in this case. I say, and repeat that's just my honest opinion, that there is something in the code that tries to artificially balance things, how can't say. FM17 was much more straight, predictable because more focused on probability; you did knew that there was a bonus for home teams and that was it. Here you have a champsionship where you dominate, then suddenly, with all morale at top, all fresh players, no injuries, etc. you get a streaks of losses against weak teams that are intended to finish that championship with just 3 wins (against the top team? Well...). It's ok to have a loss here an there because of luck, but when you see very weak teams constantly beating you (while see better teams get crushed by you) then definitely something bad is going under the hood.

I repeat that I like the game, that's not relevant here, point is that there are some behaviors that need to be tuned down. It needs to be fairer, more predictable like football is in real life. otherwise it will come frustration instead of gratification. I like to lose against PSG, it's ok if I'm not stronger than them, I'm not if I play against a demoralized and teachincally weak team (Juventus lose two matches per year, and not against Sassuolo! ); not if it's not the 'exception' instead of the 'rule'. I'm doing well in my 'virtual career', I'm not blaming the system because I'm frustrated (won a league too), but because some behaviors do cause frustration (by cheating), and I hope they will tweak them to become more plausible.

Eventually there so many variables in the system that it has lost some coherency in comparison to previous iterations.

P.S: I'm not saying that the main coder is a dishonest, let's be clear on it. Still he has many responsibilities and I hope it will make the wheel rounder in the end; even by toggling conflicting stuff that weaken system's coherency. It should be more predictable and less randomy. Juventus should not be freightened when playing against Sassuolo (**** happens, but definitely: 'rarely').

Edited January 12, 2020 by Tetsuro P12

[bitzu_rock]

14 hours ago, Tetsuro P12 said:

https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&client=firefox-b-d&sxsrf=ACYBGNSezaJ8gZm2YEiL_uj8GUkv0sIirA%3A1578781600516&ei=oEsaXp6YH4TgkgXF-6DwAg&q=partite+campionato&oq=partite+campionato&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0i131i20i263j0i131j0i131i20i263j0l5j0i131j0.4587.7049..7213...0.2..0.96.1515.18......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j35i39j35i39i19j0i131i67j0i67j0i20i263.RiPgQZejz-c&ved=0ahUKEwie6Ofjy_zmAhUEsKQKHcU9CC4Q4dUDCAo&uact=5#sie=m;/g/11fmp9cd06;2;/m/03zv9;dt;fp;1;;

And this happens every game ?

[Tetsuro P12]

1 minute ago, bitzu_rock said:

And this happens every game ?

Nope, but not even in FM.

[bitzu_rock]

4 hours ago, XaW said:

No, but using attacking mentality equals higher tempo. I mean, I'm playing the game myself and I don't see what you are saying. Of course, I see it every once in a while, but both for me and against depending on how and who I play against.

The ME is not perfect, not the slightest, but the team with the most shots does not necessarily win. I advised you to look at each situation, but from your post I can't see any evidence of you doing that? I also suggested things that could help you out. I were trying to help you spot what happened, but you don't seem to want to figure it out. So, in order for me to know if I should continue to help; Are you looking to vent frustration, or are you looking for help to figure out how to improve things? If it's the first I don't want to waste time, but if it's the latter I'm more than happy to try to help you out.

 

@XaW

I am more frustrated, but in the future if i have something to ask related to tactics i will. Thanks anyway!

[bitzu_rock]

7 minutes ago, Tetsuro P12 said:

Nope, but not even in FM.

@Tetsuro P12 So..you say is it is not related to the amount of missed chances 1vs1 in the game ? And by the way...in the link you sent me...the result was 0-0 right? I guess you know why i am so upset...

Edited January 12, 2020 by bitzu_rock

[Dagenham_Dave]

2 hours ago, Tetsuro P12 said:

IIt needs to be fairer, more predictable like football is in real life.

If football was as 'predictable' as you seem to be suggesting, betting companies would go out of business within weeks. 

 

[Tetsuro P12]

2 minutes ago, bitzu_rock said:

So..you say is it is not related to the amount of missed chances 1vs1 in the game ? And by the way...in the link you sent me...the result was 0-0 right? I guess you know why i am so upset...

In RL you see players missing one on one too. A lot. Eventually in FM they shoot too much against the keepers instead of just shooting outside, that should be tweaked.

[Tetsuro P12]

1 hour ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

If football was as 'predictable' as you seem to be suggesting, betting companies would go out of business within weeks. 

 

If it was not then companies would not invest in the millions (investment is never worth when risk is too high). That's why companies say "we will invest lot of money, but need to place in Champions League". Am I right or wrong?

Edited January 12, 2020 by Tetsuro P12

[Svenc]

5 hours ago, Tetsuro P12 said:

I think you interpret the 'cheat' term wrongly in this case.  It's ok to have a loss here an there because of luck, but when you see very weak teams constantly beating you (while see better teams get crushed by you) then definitely something bad is going under the hood.

 

I don't, and I put the emphasis here for reason. Weak Teams constantly beat you. You. It's blatantly obvious that they don't beat everyone though.

Your Sentiment is actually my biggest bugbear. You can't actually be constantly beaten if you're winning Championships.Because despite you having such a flawed understanding of the game, you still win.  That is a design flaw. You should get punished. Where does that leave anybody who actually "gets it"? There has never been an artificially leveling mechanism the Kind of which you suggest, ever.  Overpowered long balls, ME flaws, etc. sure. The only thing that could be argued to be an artifical difficulty leveler is SI being cautious how far they improve their AI. Maybe they should ramp it up so that their players were forced to "learn" before winning, like in most games out there. @Rashidi can likely tell a few stories of how well this goes all down during testing stages, though.

But as you're generally winning, you're never forced into asking questions. Like, why doesn't everybody constantly lose to weak teams? What are they doing differently?
 

 

Edited January 12, 2020 by Svenc

[Tetsuro P12]

59 minutes ago, Svenc said:

I don't, and I put the emphasis here for reason. Weak Teams constantly beat you. You. It's blatantly obvious that they don't beat everyone though.

Your Sentiment is actually my biggest bugbear. You can't actually be constantly beaten if you're winning Championships.Because despite you having such a flawed understanding of the game, you still win.  That is a design flaw. You should get punished. Where does that leave anybody who actually "gets it"? There has never been an artificially leveling mechanism the Kind of which you suggest, ever.  Overpowered long balls, ME flaws, etc. sure. The only thing that could be argued to be an artifical difficulty leveler is SI being cautious how far they improve their AI. Maybe they should ramp it up so that their players were forced to "learn" before winning, like in most games out there. @Rashidi can likely tell a few stories of how well this goes all down during testing stages, though.

But as you're generally winning, you're never forced into asking questions. Like, why doesn't everybody constantly lose to weak teams? What are they doing differently?
 

 

And still I do win leagues, so...? I play Football Manager from Amiga's time (Championship Manager 2). You presume that I'm a newbie, well that's not the case. Maybe I'm more experienced than you, so I don't need to get punished, I need to have a fun and trustable experience with a game.

That's the point, I don't want to change my play because someone artificially altered teams dispositions when playing home/away, on one planet or another, top teams, weak teams, reputation and other ********. I want to play a straight football game, like (FM) it is ever been.

Edited January 12, 2020 by Tetsuro P12

[Federico]

4 minuti fa, Tetsuro P12 ha scritto:

And still I do win leagues, so...?

Sorry.

Was your complain about winning/losing leagues or about weak teams constantly beating you?

[Tetsuro P12]

4 minutes ago, Federico said:

Sorry.

Was your complain about winning/losing leagues or about weak teams constantly beating you?

The second one. Everything feels randomy, that's the point, and I'm not the only player to raise up the point. Here and on Steam you will see multiple players talking about the same things. Sigames can put their head under the ground but that will not make their game any better. They should admit that there are some inconsistencies that can be (eventually) worked out.

Edited January 12, 2020 by Tetsuro P12

[Federico]

16 minuti fa, Tetsuro P12 ha scritto:

And still I do win leagues, so...?

So what's this statement about?

I think you misunderpreted the post by @Svenc and I suggest you to read it again.

I share your disappointment for the game, but let's not criticize it just for the sake of criticizing following the opinion of the mass.

[Tetsuro P12]

1 minute ago, Federico said:

So what's this statement about?

I think you misunderpreted the post by @Svenc and suggest you to read it again.

I share your disappointment for the game, but let's not criticize it just for the sake of criticizing following the opinion of the mass.

I talk about what I experience, the fact that my experience is common to that of other people it's a normal thing. I follow no one. I do like the game, I would like to have this particular aspect fixed. Unfortunately I think that there is so much going under the hood that they will be unable to do it without rethinking the engine. That's stuff for FM21, I fear.

Also, I understand that some players would like it like it is, there are people that to appreciate casuality, randomness. Hope they aren't the majority.

[CFuller]

Manchester City will be 2nd in the Premier League by the end of tonight. They've lost five matches this season, and one of them was against Norwich - who are bottom.

PSG are clear at the top of Ligue 1. One of their three defeats so far this season was against Dijon - who WERE bottom.

Real Madrid are 2nd in La Liga, despite losing to Mallorca, who are 18th.

Top teams can (and do) sometimes lose against bottom teams, for various reasons. Complacency, tactics, luck, got up on the wrong side of the bed, whatever. Even though the best sides are seemingly more dominant in their domestic leagues than ever, football is still generally unpredictable, which is why we love it so much.

If you are winning league titles but still lose frequently against lowly teams, then there might be something wrong with how you approach those teams. They'll likely be more cautious against your team (and thus be more difficult to break down) in the hope that they'll have chances to counter-attack. If you just keep throwing players into attack and leave your defence exposed, that's asking for trouble.

But maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree. Still, I think this might be one for the tactics sub-forum. I'm not saying "it's your tactics"; I'm just suggesting that you don't automatically blame the game for your own failings.

Edited January 12, 2020 by CFuller
Corrected myself re: Barcelona.

[Tetsuro P12]

16 minutes ago, CFuller said:

Manchester City will be 2nd in the Premier League by the end of tonight. They've lost five matches this season, and one of them was against Norwich - who are bottom.

PSG are clear at the top of Ligue 1. One of their three defeats so far this season was against Dijon - who WERE bottom.

Barcelona have lost against Eibar and Leganes - two of La Liga's bottom five. Mallora are also in that bottom five, despite beating Real Madrid.

Top teams can (and do) sometimes lose against bottom teams, for various reasons. Complacency, tactics, luck, got up on the wrong side of the bed, whatever. Even though the best sides are seemingly more dominant in their domestic leagues than ever, football is still generally unpredictable, which is why we love it so much.

If you are winning league titles but still lose frequently against lowly teams, then there might be something wrong with how you approach those teams. They'll likely be more cautious against your team (and thus be more difficult to break down) in the hope that they'll have chances to counter-attack. If you just keep throwing players into attack and leave your defence exposed, that's asking for trouble.

But maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree. Still, I think this might be one for the tactics sub-forum. I'm not saying "it's your tactics"; I'm just suggesting that you don't automatically blame the game for your own failings.

Nothing to complain if exception, point is that with this FM iteration looks to be more the rule than the exception. It can happen, it can happen rarely. I see a pattern, instead. In every version you can lose against a weak team, in no other version it happens so often (and the contrary too, ergo you weak beating top, look like there is a shift in trait).

I don't play offensive, so no. Also offensive don't mean everything up like very offensive. I can guarantee that my defence is never left uncovered, I play a somewhat defensive football (not in mentality, in positioning).

I'm sorry but no... Club Brugge still haven't won a Champions League. It's predictable. Point is that top teams are many (it's competitive, that's the only real unpredictable thing).

Edited January 12, 2020 by Tetsuro P12

[Svenc]

21 minutes ago, CFuller said:

But maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree. Still, I think this might be one for the tactics sub-forum. I'm not saying "it's your tactics"; I'm just suggesting that you don't automatically blame the game for your own failings.

Unless all of those losses are from the (op) long balls, it will come down to input either way 100%, and the better folks in the tactics forum will have none of these "constant" losses to weak teams anyway. Hell, to consistently lose to weak teams it takes quite a bit.

That's the problem, and why SI are catuious with their AI. It has still seen upgrades throughout the years. Not that much that it's coded to majorly challenge the tactical forum niche though. 

Edited January 12, 2020 by Svenc

[Tetsuro P12]

7 minutes ago, Svenc said:

It will come either way down to input, and the better folks in the tactics forum won't have none of these "constant" losses to weak teams anyway.

That's the problem, and why SI are catuious with their AI. It has still seen upgrades throughout the years. 

Cause they exploit the engine. I refuse to play that ****ing module just to win everything (no more 3-5-2 of ol' times, please). Also I don't want to fall in actual Sigames philosophy of adjusting tactics because the rival team change approach because of reputation, etc. That's a ridicolous and flawed system, philosophically and practically wrong, direspectful of actual football. I want to feel playing football, not playing a chess game. I know that for many of you it's ok but if I want to play a chess game I play Chessmaster or Civilization, not FM.

Edited January 12, 2020 by Tetsuro P12

[Svenc]

8 minutes ago, Tetsuro P12 said:

Cause they exploit the engine. 

Er, depends. The download sections, perhaps, the discussion Forum not quite. You don't want to hear this, but it takes genuine effort to consistently lose against weak Teams.

Quote

Also I don't want to fall in actual Sigames philosophy of adjusting tactics because the rival team change approach because of reputation, etc. That's a ridicolous and flawed system, philosophically and practically wrong, direspectful of actual football.

Agreed. Managers take note of what happens on the pitch with teams, not merely their standing.

Edited January 12, 2020 by Svenc

[Tetsuro P12]

27 minutes ago, Svenc said:

Er, no. You don't want to hear this, but it takes genuine effort to consistently lose against weak Teams.

 

 

Agreed. Managers take note of what happens on the pitch with teams, not merely their standing.

I don't lose every game against weak teams, I say that I see a pattern of unwelcome challenge from weak teams, through losses too. In previous iterations I knew I would get more points against weak teams, especially when playing at home. It's no more the case, now it's all completely unpredictable, and that's not a plus. Losses can happen, when everything become randomy you lose immersion, and that ruin your playing experience. AI go straight, as you would expect, me go up and down, win away against far stronger teams, lose at home against far weaker team, I don't see how this can be viewed as a plus since tactics are the same (and I'm no hyper offensive, my play is balanced with a carefully crafted defensive phase, in fact I don't see systematic holes, just episodes).

I don't want to exploit the weaknesses of the engine, since this time it's fun to position players and create an original play, so I hope that those strange approaches from AI (reputation, etc.) will go away, that every (AI) manager will have their play and that mentalities will die with future iterations of the game (why don't kill mentalities for just instructions and roles? They will never keep the game balanced with seven systems in place). They should keep it simple and original, instead of trying to balance it artificially. in my opinion, obviously.

Players ability and morale should always be top priorities. Tactics should be second, since every team can win with every tactics, the better and more determined players usually have more chances, along with a coherent and mastered tactic (no matter which).

Edited January 12, 2020 by Tetsuro P12

[Mitja]

show your tactics? 

also maybe have plan b, like perhaps different tactics, formation, different roles&duties you know normal football stuff?

[Dagenham_Dave]

 

20 minutes ago, Tetsuro P12 said:

I say that I see a pattern of unwelcome challenge from weak teams, through losses too.

Have you ever wondered why the teams you are struggling to beat are 'weak' teams?

Because they are consistently losing to other AI teams who play with the exact same match engine as you. 

So, if those other teams can beat them, and you can't.....

Well, you can work out the rest. 

[Tetsuro P12]

1 hour ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

 

Have you ever wondered why the teams you are struggling to beat are 'weak' teams?

Because they are consistently losing to other AI teams who play with the exact same match engine as you. 

So, if those other teams can beat them, and you can't.....

Well, you can work out the rest. 

I don't find it illuminating, at all. You don't know how Sigames calculate matches AI against AI, beside what they will want to tell you. Also, I would never copy a working AI tactic against another AI tactics because it kills the point of having a personalized play. And I doubt that copycatting an AI routine would make my team achieve the same results, not that I would be interested in doing that, as I previously said.

[Maldini's Heir]

12 hours ago, Svenc said:

See Maldini's Heir not a shadow of a doubt genuine perception he couldn't score "last Minute Goals". Just as genuine as it is that apparently he cannot beat teams down to ten men. Well, then, here's the Facts: If the AI can, it's becfause their late match switches are better, end of Story. SI have received umpteenth suggestions by their tactical community throughout the years. And the game still is not coded to challenge them exclusively. I don't even engage much there anymore, as what you get to learn there still runs rings around the AI. Get this: Players not engaging too deeply to Keep the game more challenging. Some don't even try (and still generally overperform the AI, oft without realizing…)

I think you misunderstood.
 

I have consistently outperformed expectations. Obviously there’s always room for improvement but I think I’m doing pretty well.

My issue is that win, lose or draw there’s just constant frustration. It’s mostly my team hitting the post, my team having disallowed goals, my team missing open goals, my keeper getting tackled......

I‘ve moved to a more direct, attack minded formation because I was not scoring enough goals and that has produced some more goals but there’s still so much frustration. I beat Genoa 4:0 but my striker missed numerous 1v1s and 2/4 goals were screamers from outside the box. I’d prefer if the 1v1s had gone in and for less screamers.

The balance is all wrong. And it’s taking the enjoyment away win, lose or draw.

 

[HUNT3R]

10 hours ago, Tetsuro P12 said:

You don't know how Sigames calculate matches AI against AI

We do know it's no different to when a human manager is involved as the ME is just there to calculate, not determine which is human or AI. It cannot tell the difference.

[Svenc]

10 hours ago, Tetsuro P12 said:

IYou don't know how Sigames calculate matches AI against AI, beside what they will want to tell you. 

I know how they are, since I've reported AI tactical shenanigans in the past costing them points, evidently. Exactly the same way. The ME doesn't care who provides the Input, it just processes that. Else all the soak testing over thousands of AI Matches SI do to check their ME for average scorelines likewise were worthless also. 

Anyway, you're never going to work this out with your Approach and apparently stubborn stance. This ain't Champ Man Amiga no more. Your tactic can't be all that coherent if it somewhat regularly loses against weak sides. However, as the AI of this game is limited (reacting to reputations rather than any Teams tactics), it seems it mostly suffers for the lack of coherence against Teams playing defensive Football (e.g. weak ones who's AI Manager views itself as the Underdog for the match). I agree that this shouldn't come down to reputations. 

Edited January 13, 2020 by Svenc

[Maldini's Heir]

5 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

We do know it's no different to when a human manager is involved as the ME is just there to calculate, not determine which is human or AI. It cannot tell the difference.

Does anyone know why it seems to be mostly my team that has bad luck?

Like I said, it seems mostly my team hitting the post, my team having disallowed goals, my team missing open goals, my keeper getting tackled......

For example my keeper has been tackled twice. I have never tackled the AI computer even though I have set my team to close down the keeper. This is a pretty random, rare event but still surely if such an event exists in the game (twice) then I should get to experience the schadenfreude of the computer keeper being tackled? 

I just rarely get to enjoy the computer’s misfortune or even some last minute, unexpected, winning goal from my team. When I win, I do so comfortably, and when I lose, it’s just one big frustrat-a-thon.

[Svenc]

7 minutes ago, Maldini's Heir said:

I just rarely get to enjoy the computer’s misfortune or even some last minute, unexpected, winning goal from my team. When I win, I do so comfortably, and when I lose, it’s just one big frustrat-a-thon.

Because the AI's match Management is different. It doesn't attack 24/7 (and I don't mean the mentality of the same Name). It doesn't even care how many shots it has. It purely cares about the scoreline and adjusts to that. Additionally, if you're generally successful, it will more and more play defensive Football to begin with, which means it can't miss that many chances, hit so many Posts, since focused on defending it won't create as many shots. With fewer shots, there's less opportunity to hit posts, or miss, or disallowed Goals, you get the picture. 

Approx. 0.1/10 out of FM Players even toy with such ideas every single release. 
 

Edited January 13, 2020 by Svenc

[Tetsuro P12]

39 minutes ago, Svenc said:

I know how they are, since I've reported AI tactical shenanigans in the past costing them points, evidently. Exactly the same way. The ME doesn't care who provides the Input, it just processes that. Else all the soak testing over thousands of AI Matches SI do to check their ME for average scorelines likewise were worthless also. 

Anyway, you're never going to work this out with your Approach and apparently stubborn stance. This ain't Champ Man Amiga no more. Your tactic can't be all that coherent if it somewhat regularly loses against weak sides. However, as the AI of this game is limited (reacting to reputations rather than any Teams tactics), it seems it mostly suffers for the lack of coherence against Teams playing defensive Football (e.g. weak ones who's AI Manager views itself as the Underdog for the match). I agree that this shouldn't come down to reputations. 

I will not copycat AI's tactics to exploit Sigames limited coding skill, or closed football gaming philosophy, I said it before. That's not fun. I repeat that I'm playing a football game, not a chess game, or at least I want to. Also your 'change mentality on the go' isn't a rule written in stone. Don't know if they changed the system in the latest two years, but until 17 it wasn't at all required nor adviced. I know, since I won everything without changing mentalities until 17. If they have changed it then this game is dead for that lot of people that don't want to lose their time chasing stupid design choices. In that case I would like an official word from developers so many can stop spending money on the product. Call it stubborn, I call it 'freedom to play football' as opposed to exploit 'flawed gaming systems'.

[wezlaar]

The ME is quite difficult this year, it’s certainly been a challenge for me to get a few tactics working, this isn’t saying that there isn’t a few errors in the ME still 

[Maldini's Heir]

1 hour ago, Svenc said:

Because the AI's match Management is different. It doesn't attack 24/7 (and I don't mean the mentality of the same Name). It doesn't even care how many shots it has. It purely cares about the scoreline and adjusts to that. Additionally, if you're generally successful, it will more and more play defensive Football to begin with, which means it can't miss that many chances, hit so many Posts, since focused on defending it won't create as many shots. With fewer shots, there's less opportunity to hit posts, or miss, or disallowed Goals, you get the picture. 

Approx. 0.1/10 out of FM Players even toy with such ideas every single release. 
 

Well they’re some of the things that create fun. 

I think that’s leading to a lot of complaints. People forgive fun games. 

[Tetsuro P12]

51 minutes ago, Maldini's Heir said:

Well they’re some of the things that create fun. 

I think that’s leading to a lot of complaints. People forgive fun games. 

It has no practical sense too. Just a counterbalancing measure to patch holes. Point is: if the players overdo just make them more tired instead of missing chances, so the manager would not go overly offensive by considering the risk to tire players and end the game with 50% condition. That would be a more fairer measure, like it's actually in reality. In reality most players don't push all the time (actually some can), they slow down from time to time. The 'if you go fast you do wrong' concept is broken at birth. Tell it to Messi or Ronaldo... It should be attribute based.

Edited January 13, 2020 by Tetsuro P12

[Svenc]

7 hours ago, Tetsuro P12 said:

 Call it stubborn, I call it 'freedom to play football' as opposed to exploit 'flawed gaming systems'.

For as Long as you're not allowed to field 30 outfield Players covering every square Inch of the pitch from the go, every tactic you design will have strength and weakness.

I repeat, if you regularly lose to weaker Teams, your tactic has structurally issues.

[Tetsuro P12]

4 hours ago, Svenc said:

For as Long as you're not allowed to field 30 outfield Players covering every square Inch of the pitch from the go, every tactic you design will have strength and weakness.

I repeat, if you regularly lose to weaker Teams, your tactic has structurally issues.

Then I would lose even worse against top teams, and that's not the case. A top team don't win but a weak team do: tactics. Well... ok.