Some frustration

[Maldini's Heir]

11 hours ago, Tetsuro P12 said:

It has no practical sense too. Just a counterbalancing measure to patch holes. Point is: if the players overdo just make them more tired instead of missing chances, so the manager would not go overly offensive by considering the risk to tire players and end the game with 50% condition. That would be a more fairer measure, like it's actually in reality. In reality most players don't push all the time (actually some can), they slow down from time to time. The 'if you go fast you do wrong' concept is broken at birth. Tell it to Messi or Ronaldo... It should be attribute based.

This is so true. 

The issues strengths are never the right strengths and the weaknesses are never the right weaknesses.

For example I set up my opposition instructions to only pressure one CB and I tell my players not to close down the other one or two. I pick the one CB with an obvious weakness e.g. right sided playing on the left, or strength e.g. Bonucci, and then leave the rest so the players can focus on closing down more threatening players. 
 

Anyway the instruction virtually always gets ignored. I see my players closing down the specific players I told them not to, and then the player I did (Bonucci) hits a defence splitting pass. That can happen once, but it would be nice if occasionally I got to see my players doing what they were told.

Similiarly I’ve specifically told my players not to hit long free kicks and they ignore my instruction. I’ve told players to take quick thrown ins and they dither. I now play a direct passing style but before when I told my players to work the ball into the box, they hit long balls over the top for my striker to miss a simple 1v1.

As far as I can gather the only thing that is reflected in my instructions is the formation. For the rest I may as well not be there.

 

[KUBI]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Tetsuro P12:

Then I would lose even worse against top teams, and that's not the case. A top team don't win but a weak team do: tactics. Well... ok.

So your tactic works against good teams, but not against weak teams? Maybe because they play a different kind of football, while you think you can play the same style against all opponents?

[Mitja]

Guys you would do much better posting in bug thread and uploading pkms with specific issue you have.

[Tetsuro P12]

28 minutes ago, KUBI said:

So your tactic works against good teams, but not against weak teams? Maybe because they play a different kind of football, while you think you can play the same style against all opponents?

Do Barcelona plays differently against Real Madrid and Getafe? Do Barcelona keep thinking: would it work against that 'mentality'? Hope we all know the answer.

x Maldini: Specific instructions are always hit and miss; some work good others do not. Eventually that depends by how the engine is made, and I suppose it would be difficult to patch up those aspects.

Edited January 13, 2020 by Tetsuro P12

[Mitja]

9 minutes ago, Tetsuro P12 said:

Do Barcelona plays differently against Real Madrid and Getafe? Do Barcelona keep thinking: would it work against that 'mentality'? Hope we all know the answer.

x Maldini: Specific instructions are always hit and miss; some work good others do not. Eventually that depends by how the engine is made, and I suppose it would be difficult to patch up those aspects.

Yes there are a couple of elite clubs that don't need to change their approach on game to game basis, all other teams need do.  But I agree their approach will still be very similiar to their standard strategy and style of play. Such huge changes in approach as differences between mentalities in FM are hardly realistic, at least in it's extremes.

And I'd say Barca plays differently against Real. 

[HUNT3R]

7 hours ago, Tetsuro P12 said:

Do Barcelona plays differently against Real Madrid and Getafe?

Yes, they do. Even the top clubs in the world would make tweaks depending on the opposition. They may not always be big tweaks like formation shifts, but there usually are changes. If you check out a few sites that do tactical analysis, you can pick up what changed from match to match.

[Tetsuro P12]

46 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Yes, they do. Even the top clubs in the world would make tweaks depending on the opposition. They may not always be big tweaks like formation shifts, but there usually are changes. If you check out a few sites that do tactical analysis, you can pick up what changed from match to match.

I'm sorry but I always see Barcelona playing as Barcelona. And there are specific clubs where management would not allow a change in behavior. Some will require to play offensively no matter what. Also it's more tolerated to change from defensive to offensive than to change from offensive to defensive (it's actually entertainment and people pay tickets for having fun, and some managements know that there is little fun in defensive play and some people do not tolerate it).

Then changes occurs everywhere, of course. Even I playing virtually can change here and there, but definitely not my style of play.

[Svenc]

This is completely circumventing the issue.

Yes, AI managers reacting mainly to reputations isn't realistic. If that weren't the case, you'd had additional Problems accross the board, not merely specific Opposition, e.g. weaker one parking the bus/ playing defensive Football.

Still, if a side on this game somewhat consistently loses to weaker Opposition, then there are structurally flaws in the tactic. Nought to do with mentality, or completely changing styles, and all that. But this will start Right in the selection of Player roles/duties. 

Edited January 14, 2020 by Svenc

[HUNT3R]

39 minutes ago, Tetsuro P12 said:

I'm sorry but I always see Barcelona playing as Barcelona. And there are specific clubs where management would not allow a change in behavior. Some will require to play offensively no matter what. Also it's more tolerated to change from defensive to offensive than to change from offensive to defensive (it's actually entertainment and people pay tickets for having fun, and some managements know that there is little fun in defensive play and some people do not tolerate it).

Then changes occurs everywhere, of course. Even I playing virtually can change here and there, but definitely not my style of play.

Maybe it's that language issue again. You don't necessarily need to sacrifice your style of play. You may not need to change anything.

Even top teams IRL do make changes depending on their opposition though. It could be their defensive shape, their offensive shape, how they transition or how quickly they do, changing a role or two of players or changing a player or two that better fits what they need to do.

In FM, we don't necessarily need to make changes. If there are issues beating a smaller team and it's happening regularly there's an issue with the approach against those teams.

[Tetsuro P12]

10 minutes ago, Svenc said:

This is completely circumventing the issue.

Yes, AI managers reacting mainly to reputations isn't realistic. If that weren't the case, you'd had additional Problems accross the board, not merely specific Opposition, e.g. weaker one parking the bus/ playing defensive Football.

Still, if a side on this game somewhat consistently loses to weaker Opposition, then there are structurally flaws in the tactic. Nought to do with mentality, or completely changing styles, and all that. But this will start Right in the selection of Player roles/duties. 

Not structural flaws in the tactics, there are structural flaws in the game engine. If the engine requires me to meet requirements against weak teams it's inherently flawed. Otherwise flaws would happen playing against strong teams too (not that strong teams plays a thoughtless football that I'm going to exploit... as I said my tactics are about covering spaces, not winning spaces, so a defensive mind should have more difficulty, not more ease finding spaces; at best they should draw).

x Hunt3er: What you said should not have an affect on results. If they slow down (transition, etc.) they should have less chances, so less probability on suffering goal and doing them.

[Svenc]

13 minutes ago, Tetsuro P12 said:

Not structural flaws in the tactics, there are structural flaws in the game engine. If the engine requires me to meet requirements against weak teams it's inherently flawed. Otherwise flaws would happen playing against strong teams too (not that strong teams plays a thoughtless football that I'm going to exploit... a

It's an unrealistic limitation of the AI managers. If they weren't responding mainly to teams' reputations, but actually styles of Play (or actually FLAWS), you would have added struggle accross the board. Whilst there are middle grounds. FM in General Plays out a bit too much Scenario-AB-like: You face attacking AI playing expansive Football leaving lots of space, you face defensive AI keeping the space in their own third tight leaving Little space, and that's that. Your struggles appear to coincidence with the latter.

Edited January 14, 2020 by Svenc

[Tetsuro P12]

26 minutes ago, Svenc said:

It's an unrealistic limitation of the AI managers. If they weren't responding mainly to teams' reputations, but actually styles of Play (or actually FLAWS), you would have added struggle accross the board. Whilst there are middle grounds. FM in General Plays out a bit too much Scenario-AB-like: You face attacking AI playing expansive Football leaving lots of space, you face defensive AI keeping the space in their own third tight leaving Little space, and that's that. Your struggles appear to coincidence with the latter.

I know that developers try shortcuts to keep balance in (it happens in any game), but to me it's evident that the game lost balance in comparison to FM17. Don't know about FM18/19 because I haven't bought them.

So if the system isn't working just change it. It's ok for me if an AI close down (so it tries to not concead goals instead of tryng to score them), not very realistic but ok, less (ok) is if it is more challenging than what it's meant to be. And it isn't challenging because it slow down transiction, there should be something else under the hood; eventually 'events' or other things that artificially beef them up. In any case the player should not be forced to play differently to try exploiting the AI attitude with weak teams. Weak teams are less challenging (in reality), that is, then rarely they can have the upper hand (in results), but rarely. The player don't need constant challenge, needs normality (if it's meant to be a simulation, if it's meant to be an arcade that's another kettle of fish).

If they close space they aren't mean to do 4 goals per match (it can happen!), that's it. And those big teams actively searching for spaces never do 4 goals per match, that sounds suspicious, no?

Edited January 14, 2020 by Tetsuro P12

[Maldini's Heir]

What is wrong with this game?

I've managed to get through a season with Milan without re-starts and finished 2nd, 2 points behind Juve, and made it to the semi-finals of the cup.

Sounds good, right?

I should be really happy with that outcome but I'm not.

Because the game screwed me.

In the two decisive games with Juve, Juve dominated me at home and I dominated them away, and Juve came out with two wins. In the first game they got a last minute winner. I was not even allowed to revel in my fortune. In the return leg I watched as my striker, who had finally started scoring, missed endless 1v1s - it was pretty obvious Juve were going to get a goal on the break and they did.

In the cup, I had drawn 1:1 away to Atalanta so had my away goal. I took the lead and they equalised with Gomez scoring a free kick from about 30 yards out. It went to extra time and I took the lead and they equalised again with Gomez scoring a free kick from 35 yards out. I think they were the only two free kicks I conceded all season. In one game. To knock me out of the cup. On away goals. Without ever experiencing the joys of a comeback. Just the despair of throwing away a lead.  

And there other incidents involving Bologna bulldozing me in one game, unlucky incidents here and there, even Leao denied a hat trick by hitting the post and then having a goal disallowed.

All joy was strictly off limits. When I won, I won convincingly without the joy of experiencing those last minute goals or a bit of luck. All of those incidents went the other way. 

How do I get anything out of that?

 

Edited January 17, 2020 by Maldini's Heir

[wolbeas]

On 12/01/2020 at 19:37, XaW said:

No, but using attacking mentality equals higher tempo. I mean, I'm playing the game myself and I don't see what you are saying. Of course, I see it every once in a while, but both for me and against depending on how and who I play against.

The ME is not perfect, not the slightest, but the team with the most shots does not necessarily win. I advised you to look at each situation, but from your post I can't see any evidence of you doing that? I also suggested things that could help you out. I were trying to help you spot what happened, but you don't seem to want to figure it out. So, in order for me to know if I should continue to help; Are you looking to vent frustration, or are you looking for help to figure out how to improve things? If it's the first I don't want to waste time, but if it's the latter I'm more than happy to try to help you out.

I thought you had been told several times by mods that you should stop spreading lies and false claims?

That is not what he is saying though. In real life, it is rarely that a team gets 20+ shots in and does not score. You may not see in the game due to tactics, but I do see it a lot and it happens quite often. This is not about not being able to win, but for us to evaluate the tactic and change it accordingly we need the proper info. 

This can be caused by either ME issues, or just stats are counted wrongly by the game and I see no reason to belittle someone else just because you do not come across the same issue or you do not agree with them.

[XaW]

1 hour ago, wolbeas said:

That is not what he is saying though. In real life, it is rarely that a team gets 20+ shots in and does not score. You may not see in the game due to tactics, but I do see it a lot and it happens quite often. This is not about not being able to win, but for us to evaluate the tactic and change it accordingly we need the proper info. 

This can be caused by either ME issues, or just stats are counted wrongly by the game and I see no reason to belittle someone else just because you do not come across the same issue or you do not agree with them.

I don't recall talking to you and quite frankly I don't have any need to either.

[witchplease]

2 hours ago, XaW said:

I don't recall talking to you and quite frankly I don't have any need to either.

Am i missing some context here like is the user you replied to an alt account, troll or something like that who deserved such a snobby reply ?

Edited January 17, 2020 by witchplease

[XaW]

23 minutes ago, witchplease said:

Am i missing some context here like is the user you replied to an alt account, troll or something like that who deserved such a snobby reply ?

Nope, I'm just belitteling and snobby.

[HUNT3R]

Come on guys and girls. I know there's frustration everywhere in the thread, but we're better than that. Please stop the bickering.