Is the balance of enjoying playing the game gone...?

[Tumppu]

I'm amazed that I have over 600 hours of playing time on a game that has brought me nothing but frustration 80-90% of the playing time. I personally hate the "it happens in real life football" excuse! This is a game and to me it's object is to have your team create (clear cut) chances (not shots!) and when I get most angry is when my team created double or triple the CCC's than the opposition the game ends in a draw or a loss. And this year this has happened contantly. I would gladly lose ALL the games in where I have created less chances than the opposition if it meant that I won most of the games that I do create more. I hate how SI only knows to cut out your scoring, not your chances. What does it matter if my team is expected to lose the game and we are the underdogs if we create more chances than the opposition! How is it my tactics fault when, again... we create tons of chances! Isnt that what the tactic is suppose to achieve?! And if my players CA is so poor how come we are creating so many chances?! I dont mind the occasional "unfair" point loss here or there but when it happens all the time it's really rage inducing. Also I've heard the "not all CCC's are really that good excuse" but the same goes other way for half-chances. Many of what the game cosiders half-chances are actually very good chances.

I'm with the OP and seriously on the edge of quitting the whole series after over 20+ years of playing because of this years edition. I dont even remember when I was this frustrated about FM! And this is from a guy that way back when had to buy really cheap mouses because they tended to fly across the room when playing FM. There has been so much more failure this year that I dont find any enjoyment in the few successes. Cant actually recall any of them right now to be honest. I just remember our last match which we lost due to a last minute goal even though we again created more chances. And that opposiotion goal came almost right after my player missed the clearest of clear cut chances.

Edited February 16, 2020 by Tumppu

[Tyburn]

@Tumppu You probably don’t want to hear this, as I sense no matter what is said right now will only enrage you further, but hey, I’m a man, and it’s my job to try and solve problems.

Have you considered that even though your tactic is dominating games, it is in fact, and the ME does a terrible job in this regard - because it makes you believe all is good, not particularly effective?

I’ve personally been through the pain of seeing 1v1’s constantly missed, last gasp winners against my team from either a set piece or a rocket. 

I changed my tactical approach and I’m seeing this a lot less often now. Like, a lot less.

(Takes cover)

[Polski97]

18 minutes ago, sidslayer said:

@Tumppu You probably don’t want to hear this, as I sense no matter what is said right now will only enrage you further, but hey, I’m a man, and it’s my job to try and solve problems.

Have you considered that even though your tactic is dominating games, it is in fact, and the ME does a terrible job in this regard - because it makes you believe all is good, not particularly effective?

I’ve personally been through the pain of seeing 1v1’s constantly missed, last gasp winners against my team from either a set piece or a rocket. 

I changed my tactical approach and I’m seeing this a lot less often now. Like, a lot less.

(Takes cover)

care to share these tactical changes from point a to b and your thought process ? because without evidence it's just words 

[Tyburn]

5 minutes ago, Polski97 said:

care to share these tactical changes from point a to b and your thought process ? because without evidence it's just words 

Well without knowing what tactics are being applied to start with it’s pretty difficult to find a solution. But I will say that when I stripped everything back to the bare bones and stopped the urge to tick everything tickable I started to notice huge improvements.

I dropped the high lines and went for a more cautious approach. I also went for a more counter approach. But this is me.

The point is that I spent 6 seasons messing around with tactics and eventually found something that worked for me.

The point is that tactics make a difference.

[Polski97]

3 minutes ago, sidslayer said:

Well without knowing what tactics are being applied to start with it’s pretty difficult to find a solution. But I will say that when I stripped everything back to the bare bones and stopped the urge to tick everything tickable I started to notice huge improvements.

I dropped the high lines and went for a more cautious approach. I also went for a more counter approach. But this is me.

The point is that I spent 6 seasons messing around with tactics and eventually found something that worked for me.

The point is that tactics make a difference.

so you're telling me you use one tactic ? for all games 

[Tyburn]

7 minutes ago, Polski97 said:

so you're telling me you use one tactic ? for all games 

Correct. One formation/tactic. I generally change mentality only, and I use shouts often.

I’m currently playing a 4123, although I also have a 442. I find the 442 tactic to still produce too many missed 1v1’s so have pretty much given it up, although very occasionally I’ll play it if I feel all else is failing. Tbh it’s success rate in those circumstances is probably around 50% so I’d rather stick with the 4123.

I’ve mentioned it before but I use 4 players on auto. They are the heartbeat of the team. I also change the role of my lone ST regularly depending on the opposition.

[Polski97]

1 minute ago, sidslayer said:

Correct. One formation/tactic. I generally change mentality only, and I use shouts often.

I’m currently playing a 4123, although I also have a 442. I find the 442 tactic to still produce too many missed 1v1’s so have pretty much given it up, although very occasionally I’ll play it if I feel all else is failing. Tbh it’s success rate in those circumstances is probably around 50% so I’d rather stick with the 4123.

I’ve mentioned it before but I use 4 players on auto. They are the heartbeat of the team. I also change the role of my lone ST regularly depending on the opposition.

could you please share a screen shot of the 4123 as I am quite interested in setting that up for my Enfield Town team 

[Tumppu]

56 minutes ago, sidslayer said:

Have you considered that even though your tactic is dominating games, it is in fact, and the ME does a terrible job in this regard - because it makes you believe all is good, not particularly effective?

Then it's still the games fault and SI's job to fix it! Your point was also buried in my post. Why is it that the game is still unable to show your tactic's ineffectiveness any other way than to cut down the scoring.

If I cant base my assesment on the statistics that the game is giving me than what am I suppose to base it on? Do I just randomly start doing changes to the tactic without nothing to base those changes on?! How is the tacic not effective if I create 8 CCC's against the oppostions 1 and the end result is still 1-1. I watch the matches on compehensive highlights just because I want to get clear view on the chances and in my opinion most of the chances created are pretty solid.

Also I dont make my own tactics and even if I did I wouldnt spend 6 seasons tinkering with it! Continuous tactic tinkering isnt why I play the game.

Edited February 16, 2020 by Tumppu

[ExeChris]

I have found this incarnation of FM so frustrating.  There are so many variables and I think I know a bit about putting a tactic together but I find vastly different qualities of performances from one game to the next.  I can go to playing a semi decent team and having decent attacks and chances and even scoring a couple of goals, to playing a really struggling side who absolutely outplay me when I don't change my system and they are playing the same way that I have played against the match before. 

Each match I start it's like I'm holding my breath to see if the tactic will work; sometimes it works like a charm but sometimes it's as if it's the first time we've ever played that way.  I've also noticed a lot (about 80%) that I can be on top or at least doing ok in the first half, but come the second half I just go to bits and the opposition start dominating massively.  I've lost count of the times that I've had like 13 shots to 2 in the first half but everything changes after half time, they don't seem to change formation or anything but they end up having more shots than me by the end of the match.  It's not that my tactics are very intensive or my players are unfit, but it's almost come to the point where I feel I have to change something at half time or else they will take control of the match.  And don't get me started on the 'wrong types of chances' or stuff like that.  If I create a tactic that leads me to have 27 shots to the other team's 6, with 20 of mine being from in the box and only one of theirs then I think I've done a pretty decent job. +

I so want to love this game, but I am not watching the highlights and feeling proud of what I have created, because they don't really follow my instructions anyway.  It's just hoping we can scrape a result and not lose the dressing room, coz if you do you are screwed...

[sverige91]

2 hours ago, Tumppu said:

I would gladly lose ALL the games in where I have created less chances than the opposition if it meant that I won most of the games that I do create more. I hate how SI only knows to cut out your scoring, not your chances. What does it matter if my team is expected to lose the game and we are the underdogs if we create more chances than the opposition! 

This is what they DONT understand, losing to a better team stills give satisfaction that lost to a better team but when you are the better team and still lose, its frustrating. I have no problem if this happens 4-5 Times in a season, This is fine or it happens against Liverpool, Chelsea, City, No problem! (as undergod team) but when this happens against Aston villa, that my strikes have missed headers, 1vs1 but Aston villa wins by taking their one and only Chance, This is what frustrate most of The players..

Success of a tactic is based on the team perform and create Chances, then next part of a Success is based of Players, How they take those Chances, if your current players doesnt take those chances, You buy better but when Messi/Kane/ starts to miss those too, then the fault is not is the tactic, it is in the game. 

As i have told "sidslayer" that tactic doesnt or shouldnt matter when striker is 1vs1 and there is no tactic that would let you remove opposition goalkeeper so your striker can have "more space" - If now anyone manages to create a tactic like that and commentry will say "He should have scored" "Just over The bar" "hit the framework" or in the end "xxteam cant believe that they lost" 

[Maldini's Heir]

Ok the restarts thing is getting completely out of hand in this game.

It almost feels at times that the game is stuck like one of those frozen save icons on a Mac. It just gets into a rut and doesn't seem to know how to get out of it without a restart.

I am sitting comfortably in the top 4 but have zero confidence that I'll win the title even though I'm 6 points behind. I play Roma, Inter and Juve and lost all three games without scoring a goal. But all of those games were "unlucky". I had a goal disallowed, I hit the post 5 times in 3 games and missed numerous one v ones. 

When I lost to Juve I thought I'd replay the Juve game for the laugh. And laugh I did. Same tactics, same team talk, 5:0. I won 5:0 without changing anything. 

And then I was back to my winning ways. The game had "unfrozen". 

That's just not right. 

@ XaW One of the reason people over-complicate their tactics is that they don't appreciate how so many results happen because of luck. "It's your tactics" really should be replaced with "It's your luck". 

[Tyburn]

6 hours ago, Tumppu said:

Then it's still the games fault and SI's job to fix it! Your point was also buried in my post. Why is it that the game is still unable to show your tactic's ineffectiveness any other way than to cut down the scoring.

If I cant base my assesment on the statistics that the game is giving me than what am I suppose to base it on? Do I just randomly start doing changes to the tactic without nothing to base those changes on?! How is the tacic not effective if I create 8 CCC's against the oppostions 1 and the end result is still 1-1. I watch the matches on compehensive highlights just because I want to get clear view on the chances and in my opinion most of the chances created are pretty solid.

Also I dont make my own tactics and even if I did I wouldnt spend 6 seasons tinkering with it! Continuous tactic tinkering isnt why I play the game.

I agree. The way the ME ‘shows’ the tactics deficiencies is particularly poor and unhelpful. However I think you have your answer.

Downloaded tactics batter the ME into submission from what I can gather. It’s just relentless. Everything on max type of philosophies.

The ME is a bit more nuanced this year I think. It’s a bit more personal. 

If you’re not willing to give tactic creating a try, fair enough. But don’t be surprised to find the plug and play tactics make the ME wig out.

[Svenc]

The Problem is what the game defines as a CCC. It's clearly at odds with what's actually calculated under the Hood in Terms of "scoring probabilty". It's a purely semantic stat, and Always has been. Should SI define that no Header ever for instnace should be flagged a CCC, no matter how big a chance it is, then so be it. That said some chances also seem to be under review still.

Even so, "Big Chances" in actual Football Analysis start in the 1 in 5 bracket (~20% Chance of conversion), so depending on which it shouldn't be all that wild to not score of 8. You've also never ever needed any CCC to score a fistful. https://community.sigames.com/topic/494734-an-introduction-and-a-question-about-contextual-feedback-and-stats-in-the-game/?tab=comments#comment-12040707 The game also isn't purely its heavily flawed stats. Forwards eventually are flagged frustrated. They can still be subbed.

Download tactics are oft notorious for creating Pretty Little space depending on how the AI lines up, so have been notorious for creating loads without scoring on the Occasion since forever, btw. I've watched a load of matches and the most curious ones have been Always done with a download /illogical tactic (not all Downloads are illogical). A good amount of them also see no proper defense whatsoever, so however Little is handed to the Opposition, it is typically gifted on a silver platter. Another reason for there to be a tactical assistant proper.

Edited February 17, 2020 by Svenc

[craiigman]

I’ve not had a lot of fun with FM over the past couple of versions. I’ve not enjoyed the match engines, and the current one is still a bit of a disaster in my opinion.

However I have started to enjoy FM Touch on my iPad with instant result so I don’t have to watch the match engine.

Also means you can instantly reload if you don’t get the result you want, if that’s what you’re into.

For real though it’s a much more streamlined experience.

[karanhsingh]

This is a really interesting thread! 

I have to say that while I am really enjoying FM20 (much more than previous editions) at times it does feel like the AI is just out to mess with you. Take the game below for instance, I was literally going to smash in my laptop. I somehow just took a deep breath, saved the game, and put it down for the night. Still finding the courage to go back to it. 

We are top of the table, and literally playing the worst & bottom team in the league who have scored 10 goals all season. They somehow conspire to score not one, not two, but three goals from indirect free-kicks (these are the bane of my existence). Of course the final one comes in the phantom 5th minute of stoppage time.

I checked the player stats, the guys who scored were useless at heading while the midfielder whipping in free-kicks like Kevin de Bruyne had all single digit stats and an 8 for free kicks 

This result meant that our lead is now down from 3 points to 1 point so was a crucial game as well. 

I put it down to a random occurrence and figured I should shoulder some of the blame for rotating my team (but when do you do it if not against the bottom team in the league). But as I said, it does seem like every so often FM unleashes a crazy frustrating game like this when you need to be "brought down a peg or two". 

[CFuller]

I'll admit to having lost a mouse or two to Football Manager over time, but if gets so frustrating to the point where you're even thinking about damaging your computer... maybe it's time to take a break? And if this happens regularly for you, maybe even speak to a professional about your problem?

Just a thought.

[XaW]

13 hours ago, Maldini's Heir said:

@ XaW One of the reason people over-complicate their tactics is that they don't appreciate how so many results happen because of luck. "It's your tactics" really should be replaced with "It's your luck". 

Or, you know, tactics and changes based of the actual play inside each match. I only use a single tactic, I've changed it a bit if I feel I can do things that add to it, but it's generally the same since I started the last game.

This is how I'm doing so far:

I've gotten Caersws of Welsh non-league into the group stage of the Champions League 3 times so far. AND I've done it without buying any players. Only youth intakes. I'm well into my 14th season with the team, and no changes to tactics at least the last 10. Do I win every match? Well, in Wales, most of them (no losses in the league), but in the CL I lose quite a few. Still, last season I beat Lyon at home, and only lost 0-1 away to Barcelona. Have I always done great with it? No, I lost 10-1 to Atletico Madrid some years ago, so losses are natural when I'm a poorer team. But when my team slowly gets more competitive, I also do better. It's almost like getting better players make my team do better. /sarcasm

Am I just insanely lucky? Is that your argument? I've tailored this tactic to suit my team, and when I had a team I wanted I'm training my players to suit my tactic. Since I don't buy anyone, I can always train the players to fit into the mould of the tactic when they are ready.

I know I'm playing this differently than a lot of others, but it works for me. I highlight this to show you that tactics do play a major role, but it can only get you to a certain point. I've lost heavily, I've lost finals, I've missed out on European football, and money. But I'm using the same tactics all the way. Am I getting luckier for each season? Or am I having better players?

[baris28]

Tactics should be important but for me it does mostly influence set pieces play in last 2 editions. Set pieces can be sometimes about luck - all players out of position-. There is not enough open play highlights for me when I watch AI vs AI and my team matches about how they score goals. Not good enough football simulation for me but of course everyone has opinion. But it is very routine and seems to have very conservative community.

[JordanMilly]

@karanhsingh: Please don't try to get around the swear filter, it's there for a reason, and your post was great otherwise. Cheers!

[turnip]

I'm increasingly of the belief that FM as a game gets more enjoyable the more you roll with whatever the game throws your way.

Chairman just sold your best MC out from under your feet with 15 minutes left in the transfer window? Throw that random youngster into the side and get a little thrill every time he does something not completely horrible.

Board think everyone you sign is a complete waste of space who you're paying far too much? Imagine how much fury they're building up while you're doing just well enough that they can't justify firing you.

Get drawn in the worst Champions League group imaginable? Go out playing kamikaze football and hope you can snatch a few points (and £££) from teams expecting to steamroll you.

 

[likesiamesefish]

3 minutes ago, turnip said:

I'm increasingly of the belief that FM as a game gets more enjoyable the more you roll with whatever the game throws your way.

100% agree. You also can totally ignore certain parts of the game, suffer some consequences for it and still be successful.

[Snorks]

1 hour ago, turnip said:

I'm increasingly of the belief that FM as a game gets more enjoyable the more you roll with whatever the game throws your way.

 

Absolutely - it is, after all, just a game, and as such it comes with a multitude of silly little quirks and idiosyncrasies that for me, make it that little more enjoyable.

 

[kingjericho]

Hey I've played 5 promotion playoffs in 6 seasons and lost them all

[likesiamesefish]

5 minutes ago, kingjericho said:

Hey I've played 5 promotion playoffs in 6 seasons and lost them all

Playoff defeats really are the worst kind of defeats, even worse than a Cup final.

I once won the first leg of a play off semi-final 3-0 only to lose the second leg 4-0. I can't even remember who I was managing but it was Nottingham Forest who did it to me and I'm pretty sure the first leg had been at their place. Was playing a network save, my mate had just won the Championship and let's just say he didn't hold back with his post-match comments on the phone.

This was nearly ten years ago now and it still stings even though I've since utterly destroyed him on subsequent saves to the point where he won't even remember this.

[f.zaarour]

3 hours ago, turnip said:

I'm increasingly of the belief that FM as a game gets more enjoyable the more you roll with whatever the game throws your way.
 

Lol yeah and let that be the hard part. Accepting the way the game goes, even if it's unrealistic in some ways. But i agree that that is the key of getting the enjoyment of playing the game in balance,

but i know some of us won't find it easy. 

[f.zaarour]

On 16/02/2020 at 20:23, sidslayer said:

Have you considered that even though your tactic is dominating games, it is in fact, and the ME does a terrible job in this regard - because it makes you believe all is good, not particularly effective?

 

Well i had those moments that i don't see an effective tactic. Hard to win home games (while having a lot of poss. and a lot of chances), losing away games and that with a big club. And having a lot of

1 v 1 chances makes you frustrated or the easy throw balls of the opponent and that is what i see a lot when i watch the game on watch highlights. I use 4123 with small clicks on tactics and a poss. play style. 

 

And as @Tumppu said i had some of those moments also which makes you frustrated about the game. It's in the game matches as i said above,

but if it's clear where it goes wrong it wont get you frustrated as you know what to do, how to change things. But it aint clear in some ways and im not into watching a match for real 90 min also. 

(there was a interesting discussion about this in the feedback thread p. 167)

So sadly i jump into a rematch to search out the weakness of AI and after a while you know how to play effectively vs AI and in what kind of formation\tactics.

Im not there yet but i dont see any other solution for me and i find it hard to accept the situation as it goes. 

 

But i agree with your tips @sidslayer about the tactic, which could be helpfull for sure. I grasped a thing on tactics to play more balanced or even cautious which makes it more effective.

Its like that in this fm playing high pressing, gegenpressing style is effective or going more cautious. And is it correct that in this fm knowing how the opponent plays is more important than ever,

so you could check where to exploit the space and where to be cautious for their (counter) attacks...? 

 

At the end i just want to enjoy the game in its entirety and the game matches itself shouldnt bring you frustrations all the time.

Edited February 19, 2020 by f.zaarour

[glenjamin]

I've been playing manager games since Championship Manager 4. I dread to think the amount of hours I've given to this game over the years, as well as the hundreds of euro I've spent on it year after year. For me it was worth it. I've never found another game which has given me so much enjoyment over the years to the extent I'd be sitting in my car on the way home from work thinking of what players to buy, or sitting with a piece of paper in work thinking of what squad I'll play should I make the cup final.

I've really found my enjoyment in the last two installments of the game to have been the lowest.

I absolutely love all the little new features that are implemented year after year. All the behind the scenes stuff associated with being a football manager. Take this year for example. When you're announced as the manager the little shot of the boardroom in the background and the picture of you holding the scarf of the club/international side you've just been given the job of. Love it! I love contract negotiations with players agents, players coming to me with their issues, drawing up shortlists and trying to figure out how I can buy with my budget, managing underage international sides and convincing a player to play for my country, arranging the training schedule, and so much more. Every year I've bought this game. And every year I've only ever managed one side - my boyhood club Middlesbrough. 

But now with the match engine being so sophisticated and detailed, bugs and errors are so prevalent it has absolutely sucked the joy out of the game for me. I've never been a master tactical. It just seems now that if you want to be somewhat successful in the game you need to find a tactic that 'beats the game'. I always had a thing for playing 3 at the back with wing backs for years. But it feels like the game is inadvertently designed to cater for certain tactics and everything else doesn't work. Last year 442 was the tactic that most people found to work. It shouldn't be like that. When people find the AMC role becomes useless and are unable to build their team around the AMC role then there's something wrong. When someone wants to play a quick central based passing game but the game won't allow them, something wrong. 

I'm all for new features and improvements. But please keep the match engine simple. It doesn't mean the game should be made easy. But you shouldn't need to be a master tactical to get to enjoy the game. 

 

[Maldini's Heir]

On 18/02/2020 at 00:02, XaW said:

Or, you know, tactics and changes based of the actual play inside each match. I only use a single tactic, I've changed it a bit if I feel I can do things that add to it, but it's generally the same since I started the last game.

This is how I'm doing so far:

I've gotten Caersws of Welsh non-league into the group stage of the Champions League 3 times so far. AND I've done it without buying any players. Only youth intakes. I'm well into my 14th season with the team, and no changes to tactics at least the last 10. Do I win every match? Well, in Wales, most of them (no losses in the league), but in the CL I lose quite a few. Still, last season I beat Lyon at home, and only lost 0-1 away to Barcelona. Have I always done great with it? No, I lost 10-1 to Atletico Madrid some years ago, so losses are natural when I'm a poorer team. But when my team slowly gets more competitive, I also do better. It's almost like getting better players make my team do better. /sarcasm

Am I just insanely lucky? Is that your argument? I've tailored this tactic to suit my team, and when I had a team I wanted I'm training my players to suit my tactic. Since I don't buy anyone, I can always train the players to fit into the mould of the tactic when they are ready.

I know I'm playing this differently than a lot of others, but it works for me. I highlight this to show you that tactics do play a major role, but it can only get you to a certain point. I've lost heavily, I've lost finals, I've missed out on European football, and money. But I'm using the same tactics all the way. Am I getting luckier for each season? Or am I having better players?

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying.

I manage Milan and generally, without restarts, I am over-achieving. I always finish in the top 4 and restarts really have just come down to whether or not I win titles.

I win far more than I lose including managing 12 consecutive wins in Serie A, without restarts, which is not too bad.

My issue is that the restarts show how much luck is involved. One restart took me from a 2:0 defeat to Juve (after the game had just stopped letting me score for 3 games in a row) to a 5:0 win. And I'm more annoyed with the 5:0 win than the 2:0 defeat because I did nothing to deserve it.

Sure "things happen in games" but this is just ridiculous. Every game I've restarted (and I've restarted about 20), I have immediately achieved a better result, usually turning a defeat into a win by doing nothing. I keep the same tactics and use the exact same team talk (which hilariously gets a different response from the exact same players).  This points to a degree of randomness that is beyond the normal randomness of football and is more akin to the randomness of a fruit machine. And, yes, I know FM is one big fruit machine but it can at least do a better job of hiding the fact.

[XaW]

6 hours ago, Maldini's Heir said:

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying.

I manage Milan and generally, without restarts, I am over-achieving. I always finish in the top 4 and restarts really have just come down to whether or not I win titles.

I win far more than I lose including managing 12 consecutive wins in Serie A, without restarts, which is not too bad.

The why the major frustration? The game is clearly showing you are doing well, and with even better players (because the long term AI squad management is still lacking somewhat, so you will most likely have a better squad than the AI in the long run) you will most likely steamroll after a few seasons.

6 hours ago, Maldini's Heir said:

My issue is that the restarts show how much luck is involved. One restart took me from a 2:0 defeat to Juve (after the game had just stopped letting me score for 3 games in a row) to a 5:0 win. And I'm more annoyed with the 5:0 win than the 2:0 defeat because I did nothing to deserve it.

I think this is a too narrow of a view. Goals changes matches, and it _could_ (because I have no idea how your tactic is set up) be that your tactic is better against teams that attack you. So when you get the first goal, they have to open up and attack more, and then you laugh all the way into a 5-0 win. In the other match, they were more cautious at the start and then countered in a goal. Now they DON'T have to attack. Perhaps be even more cautious that before and then you fail to break them down.

Other possibilities are injuries to a player at either team and the consequences that brings. Football is a game of margins, and the game tries to replicate it. And by that, goals really changes matches.

6 hours ago, Maldini's Heir said:

Sure "things happen in games" but this is just ridiculous. Every game I've restarted (and I've restarted about 20), I have immediately achieved a better result, usually turning a defeat into a win by doing nothing. I keep the same tactics and use the exact same team talk (which hilariously gets a different response from the exact same players).  This points to a degree of randomness that is beyond the normal randomness of football and is more akin to the randomness of a fruit machine. And, yes, I know FM is one big fruit machine but it can at least do a better job of hiding the fact.

But the thing you are forgetting here is that football is a game of chance. No matter how different the quality of the teams are, the game always starts on 0-0 and from that anything can happen. Are Liverpool likely to lose against Shrewsbury, even if they play a lot of second string players? No, but they only drew earlier in the season. Oxford almost kept Newcastle to pens after a replay. Atletico Madrid lost to Cultural in the cup less than a month ago, but won over Liverpool last night. If you had "restarted" now, I doubt both results would be the same.

[CFuller]

I won't repeat too much of what @XaW has already written, but if you're doing well enough without restarting, why do you feel the need to reload when things don't go to plan... especially when reload victories feel so hollow to you?

7 hours ago, Maldini's Heir said:

My issue is that the restarts show how much luck is involved. One restart took me from a 2:0 defeat to Juve (after the game had just stopped letting me score for 3 games in a row) to a 5:0 win. And I'm more annoyed with the 5:0 win than the 2:0 defeat because I did nothing to deserve it.

Norwich 3-2 Manchester City. If Pep Guardiola could have restarted that match 99 times, he would probably have won around 90 times out of 99.

In one scenario, Man City could have scored in the first minute, thus ruining Daniel Farke's tactical plans, and routed Norwich 5-0 or 6-0. But in another, Ederson could have pulled a muscle early on, and Claudio Bravo could have replaced him and conceded every shot on target he faced. Who can know for sure?

But seeing as you posted on the feedback thread that you've just given up, I suppose this is just meaningless to you now. It's obvious that FM doesn't give you joy anymore (and likely never will again), so please heed my advice:

Quote

Uninstall FM.

If you don't have any other Steam games in your computer, uninstall Steam as well.

Log off from these forums. (Just because you're not enjoying FM doesn't mean you have to bring everyone else down as well.)

Remove anything on your computer that could tempt you to come back to FM - and your inevitable circle of frustration.

Find other video games to play, and/or some TV shows/films to watch, and/or some books to read.

Spend more quality time with your family.

Do literally ANYTHING except play Football Manager.

 

Edited February 19, 2020 by CFuller

[Vribo FC]

If you have the better players, a normal tactic with no crazy stuff, you should beat a team in the majority of games. That's ok balancing. If you want to do wonders, you have to do wonders with your team and tactics. If you play a lot worse than expected it should be because you did something really wrong with your team and tactics. 

That middle road, where things go as they should, should be wider. Because when you set up a vanilla 4-4-2 with normal footballing instructions, and pick the players who are your best, you should not feel that the whole game is broken or too tough. At least we should get more time fixing it and become better managers. Now I seldom last a whole season. In any club. And I'm not a stupid or ignorant person at all. 

Edited February 19, 2020 by Vribo FC

[Tyburn]

Playing my journeyman save, last night was full of ups and downs.

I’m managing Napoli who haven’t won the league title since 1990. 36 years in my save. I was 3-3 going into the 2nd leg of the champions league semi final against Real Madrid, playing at home. We’ve had an incredible season where we’ve played some beautiful football at times and also ground out a fair few 1-0 wins. My squad was ridiculously happy. I had my whole squad to pick from. No one was playing poorly, although an element of fatigue had started to creep in.

Long story short we lost 2-0 at home to Real. The result on paper is fair enough but for me it came out of nowhere. Like, the computer said no. It’s really the only way to describe it. No one played badly. We just didn’t play well. Gutted. I hadn’t lost a game for 3 months prior to this.. and this was my first loss at home all season. The champs league semi final! Sob.

I also managed to get us to the TIM cup final. Playing against Lazio, who I beat both home and away in the league. We lost 2-0. Almost a carbon copy of the Real game. Didn’t play badly. Just not very well.

Two chances of silverware evaporated in the blink of an eye. 

However, we won the league! With a game to spare I ended Napoli’s 36 years of hurt, and in their centennial year! Joy. But I still couldn’t shake the feeling of disappointment that we were so close to something truly special. 

It is a journeyman save though. My plan was always to win the league I was in then move on. After 6 seasons this is my first league win. Started at Nancy in ligue2.

So when Man City sacked Pep I was all over it. Ended last night the newly appointed manager of one of the biggest clubs in the world.

First signing ... Pellegri from Napoli.

It’s a journey. There’s always next season. Win lose or ... getting mugged by the AI.

[likesiamesefish]

4 hours ago, XaW said:

I think this is a too narrow of a view. Goals changes matches, and it _could_ (because I have no idea how your tactic is set up) be that your tactic is better against teams that attack you. So when you get the first goal, they have to open up and attack more, and then you laugh all the way into a 5-0 win. In the other match, they were more cautious at the start and then countered in a goal. Now they DON'T have to attack. Perhaps be even more cautious that before and then you fail to break them down.

Totally agree with this. It's realistic as well, top teams normally smash weaker ones if they get a couple of first half goals and when they lose against smaller teams it's almost always because of stubborn opposition defending and against the odds. The best teams and managers in the world lose games against poor opposition and the AI in FM is at a level where a novice player can pick it up and perform as well as the best managers in the world.

If the game was ultra realistic, we would have to make tactical tweaks constantly prior to and during games and watch the game on full highlights to see what the opponent is doing and react or we would be outwitted all the time by tactically astute AI managers. I would hope the game is moving more in that direction than away from it, although it's very hard to tell what the average FM player (or potential new customer) wants tbh. I have a lot of sympathy for SI when it comes to this since it's a single player game with a tiny online community for it's player base and most of the feedback they get is negative and often about how complex the game has become. Personally I'd like the AI to get way better tactically, only for me to focus more on other aspects of the game and suffer a little for it just to add a little more realism.

[yolixeya]

On 11/02/2020 at 09:48, Maldini's Heir said:

It's not tactical because simply restarting games makes the problem go away.

If it was tactical then a restart should result in a similar result. Sure a restart might on occasion lead to a different result. Not 90% of the time. I can almost guarantee that a restart will deliver a different result. It's ridiculous. 

That does not prove that it is not a tactics issue. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that you make 2 tactics, one that would generate 70% wins and another with will generate 40% with the same team. Now when you lose a match with each one of those a restart could bring better outcome for both of those tactics but that doesn't change the fact that 70% winning tactic is still better tactic overall.

[Freakiie]

4 hours ago, Vribo FC said:

If you have the better players, a normal tactic with no crazy stuff, you should beat a team in the majority of games. That's ok balancing. If you want to do wonders, you have to do wonders with your team and tactics. If you play a lot worse than expected it should be because you did something really wrong with your team and tactics. 

That middle road, where things go as they should, should be wider. Because when you set up a vanilla 4-4-2 with normal footballing instructions, and pick the players who are your best, you should not feel that the whole game is broken or too tough. At least we should get more time fixing it and become better managers. Now I seldom last a whole season. In any club. And I'm not a stupid or ignorant person at all. 

But what is a vanilla 4-4-2? Even if you take something like a flat 4-4-2, balanced mentality and no TI/PIs depending on the roles and duties used you can create a million different systems. Especially if you take a flat 4-4-2 and then set the roles to what supposedly is your players best role in that slot you can end up with very weird tactics, even if the baseline is supposedly a vanilla 4-4-2. Heck, even if you use the exact same roles and duties, but different players, you could see something very different.

If you look at someone like Rashidi streaming he has saves where almost every match he takes a different tactic, generally from other people, and has no issues making them work. I believe he even finished unbeaten first season with Milan (without transfers) with all kinds of different tactics. So the claim that certain formations can't work is straight up wrong if you ask me.

[turnip]

5 hours ago, Vribo FC said:

If you have the better players, a normal tactic with no crazy stuff, you should beat a team in the majority of games.

So what, the game should just let us win matches if we happen to get a better team than the AI?

And if I'm up against Real Madrid, I may as well play 0-0-10 and let them win, because they've got a better team than me?

[Maldini's Heir]

13 hours ago, CFuller said:

I won't repeat too much of what @XaW has already written, but if you're doing well enough without restarting, why do you feel the need to reload when things don't go to plan... especially when reload victories feel so hollow to you?

Norwich 3-2 Manchester City. If Pep Guardiola could have restarted that match 99 times, he would probably have won around 90 times out of 99.

In one scenario, Man City could have scored in the first minute, thus ruining Daniel Farke's tactical plans, and routed Norwich 5-0 or 6-0. But in another, Ederson could have pulled a muscle early on, and Claudio Bravo could have replaced him and conceded every shot on target he faced. Who can know for sure?

But seeing as you posted on the feedback thread that you've just given up, I suppose this is just meaningless to you now. It's obvious that FM doesn't give you joy anymore (and likely never will again), so please heed my advice:

 

I usually restart after the game thinks that it's acceptable for me to sit through 3 games in a row where my team has disallowed goals, hits the past 5 times, misses countless one v ones and just generally feels like it's stuck. 

It's like a fruit machine where the symbols are jammed and you have to switch off at the wall and restart it. 

As you've noted I'm checking out. 

What I will do is continue using the game as a database and will go back to playing PES where I can actually get my team to play properly.

I use FM to simulate seasons, transfers, league tables, fixtures, injuries, opposition results. - the lot. And just play the games through PES and make sure that the results match up. 

This gives me the best of both worlds.

But the people who make this game need to know that that there is a need for vast improvement and just basic enjoyment. 

[CFuller]

10 minutes ago, Maldini's Heir said:

But the people who make this game need to know that that there is a need for vast improvement and just basic enjoyment. 

And this is based on... just your opinion?

[Tyburn]

1 hour ago, Maldini's Heir said:

I usually restart after the game thinks that it's acceptable for me to sit through 3 games in a row where my team has disallowed goals, hits the past 5 times, misses countless one v ones and just generally feels like it's stuck. 

It's like a fruit machine where the symbols are jammed and you have to switch off at the wall and restart it. 

As you've noted I'm checking out. 

What I will do is continue using the game as a database and will go back to playing PES where I can actually get my team to play properly.

I use FM to simulate seasons, transfers, league tables, fixtures, injuries, opposition results. - the lot. And just play the games through PES and make sure that the results match up. 

This gives me the best of both worlds.

But the people who make this game need to know that that there is a need for vast improvement and just basic enjoyment. 

I don’t understand this. There are plenty people who don’t see what you’re seeing. What are we doing differently?

I highlighted in my last post how I was mugged by the AI. Klopp probably feels mugged by Atl.Madrid right now, the season Liverpool are having. It happens.

If it’s happening a lot then perhaps we’re not Liverpool and perhaps our system needs looking at.

[Maldini's Heir]

57 minutes ago, CFuller said:

And this is based on... just your opinion?

It's fair to say looking across the comments that a large number of people, many of whom have played the game for years, are less than satisfied with this version.

FM19 seems to get some stick but, personally, I never had much of an issue with it. I don't even have that high standards. I just can't continue watching my LWB hit the most unlikely pass across the pitch to my RCM bypassing my ACM who will score another goal of the season when I've specifically told my players to keep it short!

[Maldini's Heir]

4 minutes ago, Tyburn said:

I don’t understand this. There are plenty people who don’t see what you’re seeing. What are we doing differently?

I highlighted in my last post how I was mugged by the AI. Klopp probably feels mugged by Atl.Madrid right now, the season Liverpool are having. It happens.

If it’s happening a lot then perhaps we’re not Liverpool and perhaps our system needs looking at.

But how is it the "system" when the exact same "system" produced a 5:0 after one restart?

If I had to guess the probability-meter that runs the game just went a bit haywire and needed a reboot.

And that's not even what drove me to quit. In one game my RCM scored 3 goals which were all candidates for goal of the season!

And the worst part was my LWB kept hitting a weird-not-quite-cross-field-pass-like-I-have-never-seen-before-in-football. And it wasn't just one game. This is happens about 5 times each game and just looks ridiculous. It either sets up a counterattack or a goal.

We all have different experiences. I've seen people complain about set pieces but I don't score or concede many. We all have different experiences but the issue is that those experiences are generally not positive.

[Tyburn]

8 hours ago, Maldini's Heir said:

But how is it the "system" when the exact same "system" produced a 5:0 after one restart?

If I had to guess the probability-meter that runs the game just went a bit haywire and needed a reboot.

And that's not even what drove me to quit. In one game my RCM scored 3 goals which were all candidates for goal of the season!

And the worst part was my LWB kept hitting a weird-not-quite-cross-field-pass-like-I-have-never-seen-before-in-football. And it wasn't just one game. This is happens about 5 times each game and just looks ridiculous. It either sets up a counterattack or a goal.

We all have different experiences. I've seen people complain about set pieces but I don't score or concede many. We all have different experiences but the issue is that those experiences are generally not positive.

I disagree it’s generally not positive. I’ve been playing the same tactic for 2/3 seasons now with a very settled team. We’re playing some great stuff.

You know when you see a manager on the touch line going crazy at his team? That’s happening because his players aren’t doing what has been asked of them. I highly doubt even Klopp is completely happy with what he sees every single game. It’s also taken him years to get a settled squad playing the way he wants. He’s also adapted his tactics since joining from Dortmund. Just as an example.

[chadnw]

I often get frustrated with FM and shut it off. Five minutes later I am back with a new idea that fails and on and on it goes. FM and Factorio are the two games I have found that dig into my head always demanding something more.

[Jimmious7]

I've played around 150 hours of FM20 so far and I've enjoyed the most part of it. Frustration was always a part of the CM/FM experience anyway so I didn't expect to be happy all the time :P

[Maldini's Heir]

15 hours ago, Tyburn said:

I disagree it’s generally not positive. I’ve been playing the same tactic for 2/3 seasons now with a very settled team. We’re playing some great stuff.

You know when you see a manager on the touch line going crazy at his team? That’s happening because his players aren’t doing what has been asked of them. I highly doubt even Klopp is completely happy with what he sees every single game. It’s also taken him years to get a settled squad playing the way he wants. He’s also adapted his tactics since joining from Dortmund. Just as an example.

In real football players sometimes/maybe often don't what they're told usually because they're under pressure.

In FM players are playing an entirely different sport. I still don't know where that pass from my LWB to my RCM comes from. It's nothing I've ever seen in the sport. But my team is specifically told to keep the passing short. I have a diamond midfield which means my LWB can pass to the LCB, DM, AM or striker who I have told to move into the channels. Hell he can even hit a cross field pass to the RWB. But in no world should he pass to my RCM. 

[Tyburn]

9 hours ago, Maldini's Heir said:

In real football players sometimes/maybe often don't what they're told usually because they're under pressure.

In FM players are playing an entirely different sport. I still don't know where that pass from my LWB to my RCM comes from. It's nothing I've ever seen in the sport. But my team is specifically told to keep the passing short. I have a diamond midfield which means my LWB can pass to the LCB, DM, AM or striker who I have told to move into the channels. Hell he can even hit a cross field pass to the RWB. But in no world should he pass to my RCM. 

If you change your instructions for how your team plays through different phases or you change the PI’s of your RCM and/or LWB - does this still happen?

My guess would be it doesn’t. It’s how you’re set up. If you’re not happy with this particular move in your system I definitely believe it can be changed.

If it can’t, no matter what, then yeah, report bug time.

[toemouse]

The fact that I have recently spent more time on these forums trying to find help for my tactics and reading opinions from other users than actually playing the game says it all really. There has been a noticeable shift in recent years but once in a while I find myself indulging but since the ME update it's sapped any enjoyment I was getting. I'm going to give it another crack in the vain hope I find some semblance of joy from this years version. 

[Travis Bickle]

It's hard to think this game isn't fixed when just before a big cup SF, two of my midfielders get ill (not with the same thing either, one with flu, one with food poisoning) and then somehow, despite blowing my budget on a star striker to boost what is already one of the best attacks in the league, my players can't hit a shot on target. Just feels rigged, that's all. 

 

[CFuller]

Take your tinfoil hat off. The game isn't somehow conspiring against you and/or planning to trip you up at every opportunity.

Sometimes coincidences just happen, and sometimes big-money signings don't pan out.

[f.zaarour]

12 hours ago, toemouse said:

The fact that I have recently spent more time on these forums trying to find help for my tactics and reading opinions from other users than actually playing the game says it all really. 

Lol this was me for sure the last couple of weeks. I was just here on the forum most of the time. Seeing many things happen to me also and trying to find the solutions and stuff but didnt had 
the guts to go back playing more again because i was afraid i would be back in that situation where the game takes away the enjoyment. The same enjoyment i had in the FM's before. Sadly.