No way should this be happening

[zyfon5]

36 minutes ago, Scarecroww said:

@HUNT3R
I have my belief why it's happening and it's based on big personal experience so unless I experience something different, you won't change my mind.

That's the problem right there. No point trying to convince him people. We are just lowly amateurs compared to his experience.

[Scarecroww]

9 minutes ago, zyfon5 said:

That's the problem right there. No point trying to convince him people. We are just lowly amateurs compared to his experience.

I know that these days people prefer to be told what to believe. I'll leave that to you, I prefer experiencing the thing and judging myself.

[FrazT]

@Scarecrow you may be frustrated, but please watch your language on the forums.

[Junkhead]

6 hours ago, Scarecroww said:

@junkhead I won 3 Carabao cups, 1 FA cup and 2 Champions leagues. Funnily enough I played all 4 CL finals, ofc in 1 off game I am used to my chances being 50/50. 

So basically out of 16 available competitions, you've won 10 and reckon the game is fixed against you?

Right.

As you said though, nothing is going to change your mind, so I won't bother wasting my time 

[Scarecroww]

You are missing the whole point, so yeah don't bother. 

[HUNT3R]

1 minute ago, Scarecroww said:

You are missing the whole point, so yeah don't bother. 

Can you clarify what the point is, exactly, please? Then we'll all be on the same page as to what it is we're discussing. 

[Scarecroww]

Well I only wrote what the whole point is like 5 times... So I don't see the point of writing it again when everyone will just come back with "it happens" and "you can't expect to win every game" nonsense. I mean I don't know how many times I have to say that I am annoyed by the fashion in which I am constantly losing games. I don't care about winning, If I was just unbeatable I'd probably quit after first season as it would be boring. But when the game constantly creates ridiculous scenarios for me to lose games, it's just completely frustrating. So there's that and now people can misinterpret it again. 

Since you tried to actually analyse why it is happening it would be disrespectful for me to make you try to do that when I know that it won't change how I feel about what I am experiencing. 

[Pasonen]

I think it's the traditional problem with high tempo skilled playstyle FM gives so many scoring/shooting chances it blinds the real reason why shots are not turning into goals always. High tempo style produces more chances than it should mainly because:

1)Defending leaves too much space on flanks,

2)Too attacking favouring ME meaning first touches and passes are too good especially at highest level.

3) Highest Tempo settings are inhumanly easy to maintain longer periods. Meaning high intensity tactic is allowed to work through out the game. Fatigue. (Guessing no facts here)

4) Over attacking/intensity tactics do not produce miss placed short and medium passes enough.

Anyway I'm enjoying this game a lot this year and I 100% know why this is not easy to "fix". People want entertainment too and not too rigid experience.

You may ask why I enjoy the game then. Well even life is not perfect and we have to enjoy it.

Edit. The key point.. forgot! Players suffering/pressured in high intensity tactic is not presented well enough. It seems they can pull it of perfectly until they have to score a goal. Meaning game flows too fast to goal area and there is no presentation of player hastiness why they don't score.

Edited January 21, 2021 by Pasonen

[CaptCanuck]

This is my FM20 Brighton save, where Liverpool are absolutely OP. Liverpool won 6 straight Prem titles with 90+ points each time, but "only" 5 out of the 18 Cup competitions (CL, FA, League Cup).

Do you reckon that was because the ME scripted their matches as well? Because it can be 'personally' directed at an AI team. One thing for a person to be paranoid, but we cannot have the AI thinking the AI is out to get them too. Again this is where the RNG aspect comes into play.

1v1's are notoriously crap in FM20 and can absolutely be seen as a way to keep the scores down (the same as wingers not cutting it back to open teammates on the penalty spot), wonky bounces can happen, and do you ever practice penalties? Even with a crazy galacticos lineup players can and do miss.

Another thing is that having everyone jolly and happy after team talks isn't necessarily good. If you constantly praise them and get smiles even when they are only playing OK, it can lead the players to take the opposition lightly and not play as well as they should. But maybe you know that already, so fair enough.

TBF, one way to test your theory is to take a relegation candidate or a lower league team and see if you end up with the same ME behaviour that you think is scripted and preventing you from winning there too. As Liverpool is already the strongest team OOTB in FM20 and can make all these things seem worse, since being so OP you will get more 1v1s and the like than a less stacked team.

In the end though, like anything else, if you're this frustrated by something that is supposed to be enjoyable, the easiest thing is to stop doing it and move onto something else.

[XaW]

43 minutes ago, Scarecroww said:

Well I only wrote what the whole point is like 5 times... So I don't see the point of writing it again when everyone will just come back with "it happens" and "you can't expect to win every game" nonsense. I mean I don't know how many times I have to say that I am annoyed by the fashion in which I am constantly losing games. I don't care about winning, If I was just unbeatable I'd probably quit after first season as it would be boring. But when the game constantly creates ridiculous scenarios for me to lose games, it's just completely frustrating. So there's that and now people can misinterpret it again. 

Since you tried to actually analyse why it is happening it would be disrespectful for me to make you try to do that when I know that it won't change how I feel about what I am experiencing. 

Look, if you are here to vent of steam from losing a game every blue moon, then fine, just let us know so we can go help out the ones who want to understand why the things they see are happening and work to fix it.

I get that no one in here can convince you the game isn't scripted, and you can certainly think so. You'd be wrong, but that's your prerogative.

So do you want to be helped? If so, what do you want help with?

[Junkhead]

41 minutes ago, Scarecroww said:

Well I only wrote what the whole point is like 5 times... So I don't see the point of writing it again when everyone will just come back with "it happens" and "you can't expect to win every game" nonsense. I mean I don't know how many times I have to say that I am annoyed by the fashion in which I am constantly losing games. I don't care about winning, If I was just unbeatable I'd probably quit after first season as it would be boring. But when the game constantly creates ridiculous scenarios for me to lose games, it's just completely frustrating. So there's that and now people can misinterpret it again. 

Since you tried to actually analyse why it is happening it would be disrespectful for me to make you try to do that when I know that it won't change how I feel about what I am experiencing. 

Pretty certain I understand the situation;

1- You're tactics are sound to the point where you've lost 12 games out of 152 in the league;

2- You've lost and additional SIX games in cup competitions across four seasons (so that's, what, 6 out of 80-100 games depending on when you were knocked out);

So in most/each of the 18 games you have lost out of 220-250 across this save, the game has been "scripted" to "create ridiculous scenarios" including missed one on ones, the odd red card and penalties sometimes being missed in shoot outs. Which leads us to;

3- "These things happen" or "you can't expect to win every game" are "nonsense" responses.

So are we saying that these things DON'T happen? Or that you CAN expect to win every game?

There is no advice that anyone will be able to give you that is likely to meet your expectations, IMO. 

The game clearly isn't "against you" though, so I guess if you're seeing things that you consider unrealistic or not working properly you should post about it in the bugs forum. 

[bazhsw]

Anyone who has watched football for any length of time will have seen big game drama.

I kind of want to do some analysis on 'last day of the season' / cup finals / derby days to see how often something unusual happens in big matches.

FM simulates this PERFECTLY in my opinion.  In my current save I won a promotion in injury time of the last day of the season so obviously the game is scripted in my favour!

Perhaps when people play with the best teams, sign the best players and use tactics which will work 95% of the time the defeats smart all that more.  Perhaps when one has a 'create 30 chances and smash everyone' tactic the chances of a lucky 1-0 win are less likely so one only sees luck go against them.

In matches that matter stories are told.  That's why the team I support in real life bottled it on the last day to miss promotion and the team that beat them remarkably stayed up.  That's why Man Utd won a Champions League with minutes to go, that's why Liverpool did the same with possibly the best half time team talk ever.  That's why you tell your children and grandchildren of the moment when the improbable or unlikely happened.

FM isn't scripted against anyone but if there is a big match variable then I say brilliant because it allows our stories to be told rather than there be a guaranteed formula to every game.

[vikeologist]

It is interesting though how we try to see patterns and 'scripts'.

In threads such as the challenge ones, where you read about lots of people in similar situations, it really does seem that certain outcomes do repeat themselves.

The classic one was a few years ago where lots of people became scared to stop playing because they thought you always did worse when you recommenced your save.

A recent narrative I've seen identified, and even helped to propagate, is when you only narrowly qualify from the group stage of a competition, and then end up winning it.

I even see patterns in people's reports. When someone is writing a sort of lie blog of their progress and says something like, 'the team is really starting to gel', you know disaster is around the corner.

We notice more when things happen that are unexpected. It's as simple as that.

Edited January 21, 2021 by vikeologist

[Tyburn]

Exactly the last point.

How many times have you got a last min penalty to win the game? Plenty.

[HUNT3R]

So we're at an impasse now, @Scarecroww. It's going nowhere because you aren't listening to anyone and you've not made discussion easy by saying 'no one will be able to convince me otherwise', instantly dismissing everyone's point of view. This is a great community most of the time and everyone's looking to help, advise or discuss topics. For this discussion to go anywhere, we need you as well.

You say the game is scripted. I (I can't speak for anyone other than myself) say it isn't. You don't believe me and I don't believe you. OK. That's why I have tried to engage with you and attempt a discussion around this issue you have, without (or trying not to) blaming anyone or anything, but rather looking at facts. What's been observed during matches, what you've done and just basically trying to get as much information as possible before drawing any conclusions.

What doesn't help and maybe it's a language issue, is this :

5 hours ago, Scarecroww said:

I mean I don't know how many times I have to say that I am annoyed by the fashion in which I am constantly losing games.

You aren't 'constantly' losing matches. That's just objectively wrong. If themadsheep is correct, you've only lost 12 out of 152 matches which is 8%. That's not consistent or constant. In a 38 match league season, it would be 3 losses. We're halfway into the real life season and all but 2 teams have already lost 3 or more matches. Last season, Liverpool managed to lose 3 matches as well and the closest other team was Man Utd on 8 losses.

If you mean you're annoyed by the way you're losing the few matches you are losing, that's at least something that can be discussed.

From what you've posted, you've whinged about the odd goal in a match that's 'scripted'. Why is 1 goal being scored against you in 1 match such an issue? You're averaging around 2.8 goals per match for and 0.5 goals per match against, so you should still be winning 2-1 or 3-1.

You mention players missing good chances. I mentioned analysing the chances, including the footedness of the player, attributes and whether it was a shot or header. Also keep in mind the Body Language of the player.

You seem to have a handle on team talks (though I have to believe what you say is true) but Body Language can still change during a match and it's important to keep this in mind. A player missing a sitter could start suffering from confidence issues or pressure. Players could be complacent against smaller teams, though this shouldn't be the case if your team talks are as good as you say. On the other hand, pressure could start being a factor against a smaller team you're expected to beat easily, but it's still 0-0 at half time or 60 mins etc.

 

It's an area of the game that I have always been very interested in and I love discussions around this, so don't take this as me attacking you or anything of that nature. It's very interesting to see what other people do, how it affects the players they manage, what they experience during a match, how they see these experiences and the reasons for it.

I suspect your players are making simple mistakes either because they're switching off (motivation lacking / complacency / concentration lapse) or pressure is getting to them (hidden attribute) and if either is the case here, you have some control over this. In my own FM20 save (which I loved) I bought a really good midfielder from a rival. I desperately needed a midfielder and had no other options lined up, so paid a bit over the odds to get him. It weakened my rivals too, so it was worth it, in my eyes. I noticed over the course of a season that he was usually nervous in pressure matches. It took a while for the pattern to register with me, but after I noticed it, I never played him in the really crunch games and I believe we were a better team because of it. I have no proof of this, of course, but if I eliminated a mistake or two per match because I'm not sitting with a nervous player needlessly giving the ball away or getting caught in possession, that's more of a chance of securing a clean sheet and hopefully a win.

I am installing FM20 again so I can look over my matches, the match stats and wins/losses over a few seasons, but I remember being VERY successful and with a team who didn't have the absolute top superstars.

Like I said, I have good players, but not really massive superstars and on the wage front, I'm low down in Europe compared to rivals:

Quality-wise, a few European teams (as the wages also indicate) are better than me. I'm punching above my weight in Europe, but managed to win the CL twice in 5 years. No dodgy goals against me there. Better teams beating me.

So, in the league - 4 completed seasons and I was still busy with the 5th. I've had a few dodgy goals for and against me, but 1 goal here or there against me has made no difference. As you can see, I lost even fewer matches than you did. I am currently 55 matches without losing. If there's 'scripting' involved, it's not very good. 

 

Edit: Oh and in terms of efficiency, I have attached a screenshot of that too:

 

We are scoring with every 7th shot and averaging 25 shots per match, so that gives me an average of over 3 goals per match. 

 

[oblongata21]

5 hours ago, Scarecroww said:

Well I only wrote what the whole point is like 5 times... So I don't see the point of writing it again when everyone will just come back with "it happens" and "you can't expect to win every game" nonsense. I mean I don't know how many times I have to say that I am annoyed by the fashion in which I am constantly losing games. I don't care about winning, If I was just unbeatable I'd probably quit after first season as it would be boring. But when the game constantly creates ridiculous scenarios for me to lose games, it's just completely frustrating. So there's that and now people can misinterpret it again. 

Since you tried to actually analyse why it is happening it would be disrespectful for me to make you try to do that when I know that it won't change how I feel about what I am experiencing. 

Nobody is missing the point, everyone thinks you are being a little overly sensitive because you lost one match. And apparently if you do lose, its because the game is scripted. You only had a few more shots then the opponent, thats hardly a domination. Ive had games where ive had 21 shots to 1, and lost. These things happen, so does losing games

You have lost 12 games in four seasons!!! So i dont see what the big issue is.

Do you expect to win every single game?

 

[isignedupfornorealreason]

14 hours ago, CaptCanuck said:

They controlled the play and scored two well worked goals.

My eye is drawn to the fact that Liverpool had 5 CCC's and presumably missed all five and their goal came from a fluke/worldie.

 

Possession and 'control' of play is irrelevant, when he's not set out to do that tactical style, by his own admission he is playing direct, quick football. As he says, he's making better chances, and yet is failing to convert them, whereas Chelsea, for all their 'possession' and 'control' only popped up with one clear chance. (Please don't say 'well CCC's are misleading/bad' when we just had a post early on suggesting to check that stat since 2020 doesn't have the XG mechanic.)

 

The higher ratings would just happen from them ticking things over and being on the winning team tbh.

 

Anyway, when looked at like that, I can understand OP's point. I've had some bizarre runs on my equally successful United file, games where I have five CCC's and I hit the woodwork 6 times on top, and it just looks absolutely ridiculous. And it's either because the game has decided via its coding that this is a moment for 'pressure' (i.e. a big match - which, I personally disagree with the timing for it, because sometimes the game arbitarily seems to decide the pressure point is in November/December if you're doing well enough), or a player's head isn't in the game, so he starts fluffing absolute sitters for his six hour steak of no-goals (but that's a man-management issue, and I love these when I can fix them, but dread them when I can't!  )

 

I don't think OP has any claim for 'constantly losing', obviously, he's walking the league and dominating, but he is obviously frustrated with the way cup games are going and so, the game could do with offering him additional, more sign-posted support when it comes to these fixtures. Y'know, something to knock him off from his usual track, or highlight something he may be overlooking etc.

[HUNT3R]

9 minutes ago, isignedupfornorealreason said:

Please don't say 'well CCC's are misleading/bad' when we just had a post early on suggesting to check that stat since 2020 doesn't have the XG mechanic.

This is in reference to my post. Yes, I suggested it, but that's not all I did. I suggested looking at half chances too. I also encouraged (twice at least) analysing the actual chances to see if they really were good and that's more xG style, which would be more accurate.

Edit: I also included a link to last year's discussion where I pointed toward (though that's not all that was useful in that thread) a few of us analysing another user's match where there were claims of domination etc and the reality was the match was much closer than it seemed to be. Svenc's xG graph helped the analysis as well.

[KillYourIdols]

"The Magic of the Cup"

[Zoolok42]

9 hours ago, Scarecroww said:

Well I only wrote what the whole point is like 5 times... So I don't see the point of writing it again when everyone will just come back with "it happens" and "you can't expect to win every game" nonsense. I mean I don't know how many times I have to say that I am annoyed by the fashion in which I am constantly losing games. I don't care about winning, If I was just unbeatable I'd probably quit after first season as it would be boring. But when the game constantly creates ridiculous scenarios for me to lose games, it's just completely frustrating. So there's that and now people can misinterpret it again. 

Since you tried to actually analyse why it is happening it would be disrespectful for me to make you try to do that when I know that it won't change how I feel about what I am experiencing. 

What would be a 'fair' defeat to you? The other extreme, where you get dominated and annihilated 4-0? How unrealistic would you then claim that is, your team that wins virtually all games suddenly has a day off and gets thoroughly defeated?

Unlucky defeats a couple of times per season are a very realistic way to lose for a team that constantly wins and dominates the opposition. It's not scripted, it happens, and in real life, I'm pretty sure real managers sometimes feel powerless as well.

[Scarecroww]

18 hours ago, Scarecroww said:

@HUNT3R As I said, team talks, personal talks, shouts from the sideline, everything that is in my power goes greatly. The players are constantly "Fired up" and "Motivated". It's not about tactics and teams going defensive or whatever, I still get great chances and those chances fall to all the right players, putting more offensive and creative midfielders and switching up forwards with other world class ones also doesn't do anything.

 

@HUNT3R I already responded to you but you don't seem to read everything that I write. Others I won't even dignify with a response when their output is still "So you're complaining about this one instance in one game" Ye ok dude, either read everything or don't engage at all. 

Again, I just posted screenshots and a video to give some context, but I also explained what I saw with my own eyes during gameplay. If you don't believe it, I understand that, I personally find it difficult to believe anything until I see it for myself, but then just ignore the post and stop throwing in useless passive aggressive posts.

Is it not concerning that I easily predicted what was gonna happen in that Chelsea game in Cup? So whatever you say, yes it is consistently happening. This is now 5 seasons, in 4 of those 5 seasons I've been knocked out of FA cup(keep in mind I always go full force in cups), 2 times got knocked out of Carabao Cup, lost 2 CL finals, lost 3 out of 5 Community Shields, 1 out of 2 Super Cups and Lost in the final of new Club World Championship. And then you can add to that the league games where it ends on a draw/lose. And the problem is in 90% of those games I am the better team and I lose to fluke goals, own goals, red card, penalties, players missing great chance after great chance. Just generally games being a mess, and it is constantly despite all the trophies and victories. 

I have the strongest team in the world, but I still go into games without confidence and wondering what is the game gonna throw at me this time to make me lose. 

I am gonna end it here since I really don't want to go into circles here. You have your conclusions I have mine

Cheers

[FrazT]

Thread has travelled the full circle, so I will close it now.