Does the AI adapt to counter your tactics ?

[DeepThought]

Does the AI adapt to counter you/your tactics specifically ? And in what ways does the AI change/adapt ?

I know it's a question that comes up every year and the answer is usually the same, but I've just been browsing forums and seen someone claiming the AI does adapt specifically to your tactics and that it was confirmed my Miles on twitter. So here I am, looking for a nice clear answer direct from source. I searched the forum beforehand and couldn't find it, apologies if it's been asked and I've missed it.

Thank you to anyone able to provide a definitive answer. I hope this is the right section to ask. 

Edited for my poor sentence structure/errors.

Edited February 8, 2021 by DeepThought

[XaW]

Well, it's a bit yes and no. The AI is, as far as I'm aware, not defined enough to counter specific threats, but rather react based on how likely it is they will win or lose. So if the AI is heavy favoured to beat you they will be more attacking than if they are favoured to lose. So in general terms the AI will attack more (play more attacking or offensive) against sides they think they will beat, and more defensive against sides they think they will lose to.

This is what some users notice if they are overachieving at the start of a season with an poorer side (compared to the rest of the league). They will initially be attacked, but that will also give space. So if that happens for a while, the AI will slowly realise that the team that was initially considered poor, is not that poor and they will start to play more cautiously. It's around that point many feels their tactic is being "cracked" by the AI, simply because the place that was allowed initially are now restricted and tactics that does overly rely on that space will start to falter.

So the AI reacts to your results, not your tactic. At least that's how I've understood it and experienced it over too many hours!

[HUNT3R]

Yeah, the AI reacts to things like player rep, form and league position and then make general changes. They do not set out to counter a tactic specifically and it's been confirmed by SI many times in the past. 

 

[DeepThought]

Thank you @XaW and @HUNT3R for such a quick reply. That was pretty much my understanding too, as you mention I've seen it confirmed in here for previous versions repeatedly in the past. 

I've just been back to the forum I mentioned and this is the tweet they're referencing: 

https://mobile.twitter.com/Assassin2k121/status/1358034940601004032?s=19

 

[XaW]

24 minutes ago, DeepThought said:

Thank you @XaW and @HUNT3R for such a quick reply. That was pretty much my understanding too, as you mention I've seen it confirmed in here for previous versions repeatedly in the past. 

I've just been back to the forum I mentioned and this is the tweet they're referencing: 

https://mobile.twitter.com/Assassin2k121/status/1358034940601004032?s=19

Well, if Miles say so, I won't argue against him. Doubt many people know more about the game than him.

Perhaps there's a bit of a nuance here though, as I think the AI will do things to counter certain threats (man marking and change pressing or defensive lines in a match), but I've never seen it referred to by SI as specifically adapting to counter human (or AI for that matter) tactics.

[HUNT3R]

1 hour ago, DeepThought said:

seen someone claiming the AI does adapt specifically to your tactics and that it was confirmed my Miles on twitter.

 

32 minutes ago, DeepThought said:

I've just been back to the forum I mentioned and this is the tweet they're referencing: 

https://mobile.twitter.com/Assassin2k121/status/1358034940601004032?s=19

 

What you claimed and what was actually answered are two different things. Would ask Miles what exactly that means, if I were you.  

 

[DeepThought]

2 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

 

 

What you claimed and what was actually answered are two different things. Would ask Miles what exactly that means, if I were you.  

 

Yeah, as I mentioned it was just me browsing someone else's post on another forum and they replied with that as their evidence after my post on here so I thought I'd just update what they'd provided.

I'd ask, but I don't use Twitter unfortunately and I don't know if he frequents here ? 

15 minutes ago, XaW said:

Well, if Miles say so, I won't argue against him. Doubt many people know more about the game than him.

Perhaps there's a bit of a nuance here though, as I think the AI will do things to counter certain threats (man marking and change pressing or defensive lines in a match), but I've never seen it referred to by SI as specifically adapting to counter human (or AI for that matter) tactics.

I think you're right, you can't take too much detail from a single word answer to that  question. It's not a fountain of information !

Anyways, thank you both again for your help. I really do appreciate it. 

[HUNT3R]

1 minute ago, DeepThought said:

I'd ask, but I don't use Twitter unfortunately and I don't know if he frequents here ?

Ok. Stay off it for your sanity. He's on the forum, but doesn't post much.

1 minute ago, DeepThought said:

you can't take too much detail from a single word answer to that  question

That's the issue. It asks about style and scouting. Not specifically adapting to a tactic.

Here are (much) more detailed replies from SI. They're not as new, but contain more detailed answers.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/482730/discussions/0/282992646978869621/?ctp=2

https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/513830-is-the-balance-of-enjoying-playing-the-game-gone/?tab=comments#comment-12268781

[Platinum]

On 08/02/2021 at 18:19, HUNT3R said:

Ok. Stay off it for your sanity. He's on the forum, but doesn't post much.

That's the issue. It asks about style and scouting. Not specifically adapting to a tactic.

Here are (much) more detailed replies from SI. They're not as new, but contain more detailed answers.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/482730/discussions/0/282992646978869621/?ctp=2

https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/513830-is-the-balance-of-enjoying-playing-the-game-gone/?tab=comments#comment-12268781

Only thing I would say is that the most recent response is from 2020 and all Niel says is "The AI cant crack your tactic". I think that's open to interpretation and doesnt necessarily mean the AI wont make make changes based on your common tactics. I would be quite surprised if the AI doesnt use the "tactics struggled against screen" to help inform their own tactic choice. As that's available to the human manager in the last few games I'd be quite surprised if its not available to the AI manager. 

[Platinum]

On 08/02/2021 at 18:19, HUNT3R said:

Ok. Stay off it for your sanity. He's on the forum, but doesn't post much.

That's the issue. It asks about style and scouting. Not specifically adapting to a tactic.

Here are (much) more detailed replies from SI. They're not as new, but contain more detailed answers.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/482730/discussions/0/282992646978869621/?ctp=2

https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/513830-is-the-balance-of-enjoying-playing-the-game-gone/?tab=comments#comment-12268781

I just listened to the most recent Football Manager podcast episode called '14. What do you do when it all goes wrong?' that released yesterday and inside the first 15 minutes or so an SI staff member says that opponents make changes based on your tactic and also the more they play against you the more they learn about your tactic.

[HUNT3R]

7 hours ago, francis#17 said:

I just listened to the most recent Football Manager podcast episode called '14. What do you do when it all goes wrong?' that released yesterday and inside the first 15 minutes or so an SI staff member says that opponents make changes based on your tactic and also the more they play against you the more they learn about your tactic.

That's interesting and I'd love to know what exactly that means in detail. It's good to know that progress seems to have been made since the quotes that I posted. I would still think that we're talking about OIs and dropping the D-line against a Route One 'style' etc so nothing extremely exact, but it's still encouraging that the AI is progressing there.

Maybe it's better not to know exact info and could make things more challenging.  Thanks for that.

[JPChenet]

If you're looking for tougher opposition in the game in order for you to feel more challenged, I'd suggest you play against human managers. There's more chance of OI reaction to tactics and TI/PI too.

[Federico]

But never as this edition I have seen the AI trying "to do something different" and with some kind of logic according to the progression of the game.

[Jorge666]

I can say from experience I always seem to need to shake things up a bit in about January, always seem to start sliding after Christmas regardless of team/league (whether there's a Christmas break or not) even if I play many friendlies to get them sharp again, that's why I always have 2-3 tactics trained and change to one of the others for a bit if I start getting poor results

[sporadicsmiles]

If you play enough games you can pretty much predict how the AI will adapt to you. Both in general terms due to success and on a match by match basis. I think it is also clear it does not "learn" tactics - there is no way the AI in this game is so advanced. I would love if it was able to look at your tactic and come up with specific counters to it. 

The general changes will be that the AI is more cautious when you have seen some success. This is behind the "but in January we start to lose" thing. This usually occurs when you are taking advantage of teams being open against you. Once they stop being open and start to be more careful, you start to struggle. I assume that goes both ways as well, that if you suddenly start being terrible you will be taken less seriously, but it is probably not something people come across as much. 

The AI also does clearly get info about your team in scout reports and will do things. You can often see they have decided that they will man mark one of your players. Or they have some OIs on to do specific things. It is extremely difficult to know if they have set up their team in a different way, because you do not have real access to how they normally would play. So it is not something I think anyone not directly involved in the programming of the game can comment on with authority. To my mind, though, it seems the AI has a set of match plans that it will use depending on the circumstances. And whatever changes their scouts lead them to. I seriously doubt the game makes specific changes, but generic ones. You are an underdog? Play your more defensive formation, selection and match plan. Favourites? attacking formation, selection and match plan. And everywhere in between. Plus whatever changes need making mid match. I have seen teams take 1-0 leads and then immediately try to shut up shops, and when they go 1-0 down they will start to attack you more.

This is all just my personal feeling from playing this and previous games. I would love someone in the know to write some kind of generic guide of what the AI can and cannot do, even if they want to keep the hows and whys quiet.

[Platinum]

59 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

If you play enough games you can pretty much predict how the AI will adapt to you. Both in general terms due to success and on a match by match basis. I think it is also clear it does not "learn" tactics - there is no way the AI in this game is so advanced. I would love if it was able to look at your tactic and come up with specific counters to it. 

The general changes will be that the AI is more cautious when you have seen some success. This is behind the "but in January we start to lose" thing. This usually occurs when you are taking advantage of teams being open against you. Once they stop being open and start to be more careful, you start to struggle. I assume that goes both ways as well, that if you suddenly start being terrible you will be taken less seriously, but it is probably not something people come across as much. 

The AI also does clearly get info about your team in scout reports and will do things. You can often see they have decided that they will man mark one of your players. Or they have some OIs on to do specific things. It is extremely difficult to know if they have set up their team in a different way, because you do not have real access to how they normally would play. So it is not something I think anyone not directly involved in the programming of the game can comment on with authority. To my mind, though, it seems the AI has a set of match plans that it will use depending on the circumstances. And whatever changes their scouts lead them to. I seriously doubt the game makes specific changes, but generic ones. You are an underdog? Play your more defensive formation, selection and match plan. Favourites? attacking formation, selection and match plan. And everywhere in between. Plus whatever changes need making mid match. I have seen teams take 1-0 leads and then immediately try to shut up shops, and when they go 1-0 down they will start to attack you more.

This is all just my personal feeling from playing this and previous games. I would love someone in the know to write some kind of generic guide of what the AI can and cannot do, even if they want to keep the hows and whys quiet.

In the podcast an SI staff member gave the example of if your team is good at set pieces the AI will do specific things to mitigate the impact of your set pieces. How detailed this gets Im not sure but that is more advanced than just "if I'm an underdog i will be more cautious" and should be more advanced then opposition instructions. I would think that means they would turn off "be hard on the tackle" in their tactic, which would be great, but I'm not an insider.

[sporadicsmiles]

2 hours ago, francis#17 said:

In the podcast an SI staff member gave the example of if your team is good at set pieces the AI will do specific things to mitigate the impact of your set pieces. How detailed this gets Im not sure but that is more advanced than just "if I'm an underdog i will be more cautious" and should be more advanced then opposition instructions. I would think that means they would turn off "be hard on the tackle" in their tactic, which would be great, but I'm not an insider.

Its a very interesting topic, hopefully this thread ends up teaching us all about this a little bit. I'll see if I can find that podcast.