Reloading for Son

[dudeawesome]

Let's talk about the white whale, the needle in the haystack, the son. Being over 35 seems very likely and makes sense (28 year old manager finds his 16 year old son? Do the maths), but I'm wanting to go deeper.

I'm wondering what the collective mind of these forums knows about reloading for a son. Do you save and reload the day before your actual intake, the preview? 

Somewhere in the game code must be the line/ function that runs the 1/whatever thousand chance for "generate son". I asked Seb on twitter about this (generated on preview Vs generated on intake) and he said:

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Preview. Although, I actually think it may be slightly before the visible preview even

So in reality, it looks as though to reload for a son, you would have to do what I'm currently doing - save the day before the preview, save the preview as a seperate save game, and holiday to the intake to see if there's a son. If not (which obviously, is likely), reload original day-before-preview save and begin again. 

The 'before the visible preview' is new to me, and obviously makes it even harder. I get they don't want us reloading for sons and things easily, but lets be honest, gamers gonna game.

Does anybody have any useful information to add, experiences of reloading etc? For example, and I highly doubt this, but has anyone seen any unique lines in the preview intake, "a recognisable face at left back" or anything similiar that might indicate a son?

Having played since CM01/02 and never had my own son (saw Mourinho's regen son once), this is quickly becoming my life goal. All experiences and questions are based on "full" Football Manager / not FMC or Touch.

[santy001]

You have to remember that in previous times it was becoming something some players would do, reloading persistently around the time of youth intakes to try and boost their own youth intake. 

You can maybe argue it should've been left like that, but its something that would largely be considered degenerate gameplay and people of certain personalities would feel compelled to reload beyond the point of frustration. This means a lot of the workings with producing regens is obscured more and I don't know if SI will have any interest in putting specifics to the mechanics.

How accurate this figure is, I do not know, but the figure I've seen used most often is 1/10,000 for a son in any given intake. 

One question I'd have is when are the names/favoured club/favoured personnel profiles generated? Keep in mind the game might determine you have 18 players coming through with PA's of A/B/C and attributes of X/Y/Z but are the names generated on the same day? I genuinely don't know, if you reload the day before they actually appear in the youth candidates squad do their names change?

[dudeawesome]

1 minute ago, santy001 said:

You have to remember that in previous times it was becoming something some players would do, reloading persistently around the time of youth intakes to try and boost their own youth intake. 

Yeah I can see why they added the preview aspect, reloading the one day was a very simple way to obscure the average PA coming out of our academy. Understandable for a more realistic gameplay, simply annoying in this particular instance of "im 20 season in, im committing, i want that son"!

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One question I'd have is when are the names/favoured club/favoured personnel profiles generated? Keep in mind the game might determine you have 18 players coming through with PA's of A/B/C and attributes of X/Y/Z but are the names generated on the same day? I genuinely don't know, if you reload the day before they actually appear in the youth candidates squad do their names change?

From what I've found, reloading the day before the actual intake can vary CA, PA, but generally names/ nationalities seem to be set on the preview. Can't say I've noticed relationships changing, as I've never had anything out of the ordinary (often just me and some backroom staff as favoured personnel). I have read a thread of someone on FM17 who seemed to notice if he had a gen that shared his last name, reloading just the intake day would eventually link him as a son, but I think that might be outdated now, especially with Seb saying it's done around the preview. 

I get the whole thing is mysterious and I do understand SI not wanting FM to become an easy game to 'metagame'. Just wondered if the community had some observations from experience that may help.

I've also heard the 1/10k chance and based on my experiences of general reloading intakes, seems accurate!

[Ronnieekelund]

I have a son in game hes now 21 and is 3rd choice cm in my 2 man midfield. Its the first time I've had a son in game since 8 started playing cm/fm all those years ago. Also helps that he's pretty good 👍 

[SMV90]

I have only ever had two sons in my FM career. One back on 17/18 who was terrible. His name was Julien, which I found even more disheartening than his lack of talent.

However, on my CAC save on this FM, I actually got a very good son. Can't find the screenshot I took of him in his prime, a time when he was captaining both England and RB Leipzig. Was hoping for a 100-not-out on caps, but 92 is still fantastic. Fired a very decent U-19s staff member to get my son in, but he seems keen to study for his coaching badges so he should reach an acceptable level of coaching/managing.

Just for those who may be suspicious as I have the editor enabled, that's simply for cosmetic purposes. I like to change my kits every season or two to keep it fresh. 

[Matt_Ray]

The 1/10,000 odds have been confirmed by Miles on Twitter, and that those odds are per newgen.  So with an average intake size of about 15 kids, your odds of getting a son in any given intake are, amusingly, 1 in 666.  Well, 666.7 but that's not as fun

I've crunched the numbers over half a dozen intake reloads and I would say with a moderate degree of confidence that PA range is set on the preview day, but the exact PA is decided on intake day.  If you look at the below, you can see that while there's a reasonable amount of variance in the CA/PA of each player, it's generally less than 40 points (average CA variance is 25 points, for PA it's 38).  Interestingly there seems to be more variance with lower PA players, but my data set's not really large enough say for sure whether that's an actual trend or just a coincidence.

Name, nationality, and position all look to be set on Preview Day as none of these change at all.

Player	CA	CA	CA	CA	CA	CA	AVG	MIN	MAX	VAR		Player	PA	PA	PA	PA	PA	PA	AVG	MIN	MAX	VAR
Goode	52	69	45	52	72	94	64	45	94	49		Goode	132	141	115	132	140	130	132	115	141	26
Golabek	63	56	40	40	59	63	54	40	63	23		Golabek	80	68	66	83	87	64	75	64	87	23
Addo	52	53	59	58	53	40	53	40	59	19		Addo	109	85	80	61	81	104	87	61	109	48
Besnard	68	53	51	41	50	68	55	41	68	27		Besnard	75	98	106	61	123	78	90	61	123	62
Morrison	66	40	40	52	59	41	50	40	66	26		Morrison	126	54	67	79	96	50	79	50	126	76
Hamilton	40	57	68	43	44	44	49	40	68	28		Hamilton	117	125	131	124	98	127	120	98	131	33
Allan	56	79	77	55	65	51	64	51	79	28		Allan	122	155	149	139	145	135	141	122	155	33
Morrison	47	51	68	40	56	69	55	40	69	29		Morrison	81	54	94	128	77	82	86	54	128	74
Sassi	37	45	40	58	46	53	47	37	58	21		Sassi	114	114	122	120	123	102	116	102	123	21
Burpo	76	71	61	71	79	71	72	61	79	18		Burpo	148	158	140	150	159	163	153	140	163	23
Forde	45	67	66	40	54	60	55	40	67	27		Forde	115	73	73	73	83	74	82	73	115	42
Tyrelis	59	66	48	64	45	43	54	43	66	23		Tyrelis	94	90	61	66	74	82	78	61	94	33
Odle	68	41	41	43	45	65	51	41	68	27		Odle	136	133	85	122	124	130	122	85	136	51
Evans	44	47	55	43	48	39	46	39	55	16		Evans	113	117	116	112	126	112	116	112	126	14
Riches	69	50	60	52	55	59	58	50	69	19		Riches	132	98	132	122	130	125	123	98	132	34
Bowers	82	73	62	78	70	76	74	62	82	20		Bowers	147	133	143	148	130	143	141	130	148	18
							56			25									109			38

From that, I would say that it's clear that if you want to improve your odds of having a son appear then it's the day before Preview Day you need to be reloading.

I would love to see SI improve the odds of having a son come through.  I've been playing this game since CM 97/98 and never had one :/

[Britrock]

That variance seems to line up with players getting minus numbers for their ca/pa, which gives them a range within 30 (-10 is 170-200, -9 is 160-190, -8 is 150-180 etc etc). I would guess this is set when they're created at preview day and the actual values then get set when the youth candidates come through

[Matt_Ray]

On 05/03/2021 at 11:32, Britrock said:

That variance seems to line up with players getting minus numbers for their ca/pa, which gives them a range within 30 (-10 is 170-200, -9 is 160-190, -8 is 150-180 etc etc). I would guess this is set when they're created at preview day and the actual values then get set when the youth candidates come through

Agreed.

[FMFutbol]

I got a son in my first season with the club, so the old rumor that you have to be with a club for 10 years before a son appears in the intake is no longer true.

FWIW, my manager starts off at 60yo at a foreign club and with minimal reputation.

[Grifty]

Do you get a notification saying something like "Your son has come through the youth ranks" or is it a case you have to notice him?

[XaW]

5 hours ago, Grifty said:

Do you get a notification saying something like "Your son has come through the youth ranks" or is it a case you have to notice him?

I got one in FM19, so I don't think the preview existed back then. I noticed because he had the same last name as me, and when I looked into his favoured personnel, I was listed as father.

[Matt_Ray]

On 08/03/2021 at 12:33, FMFutbol said:

I got a son in my first season with the club, so the old rumor that you have to be with a club for 10 years before a son appears in the intake is no longer true.

FWIW, my manager starts off at 60yo at a foreign club and with minimal reputation.

Very envious, over here! xD

[Nacaw]

On 05/03/2021 at 11:28, Matt_Ray said:

Name, nationality, and position all look to be set on Preview Day as none of these change at alI would love to see SI improve the odds of having a son come through.  I've been playing this game since CM 97/98 and never had one :/From that, I would say that it's clear that if you want to improve your odds of having a son appear then it's the day before Preview Day you need to be reloading.

Some good info in your post, but I don't think you are correct with this. There's currently nothing you can do to re-load for a son, because the game won't tell you if there's a son before youth day happens. If you keep reloading preview day, you might change the names, but you won't know if there's a son amongst them, rendering the endeavour rather pointless. You'd have to save the game, holiday months from just before preview day to intake day, and then reload just before preview day again. 

   

Slightly off topic, but do you have great midfielders and weak wingers in the save where you reloaded this? Matt Burpo is rated with 2 to 3 stars potential, despite often having the best PA in the intake. In one case, a 147 PA player gets 4+1 stars. and Burpo with 148 PA gets 1½+1 star.. In another, he gets 2½ star potential with 158 PA. I'm sorry what? On the other hand Reece Bowers is very often the highest rated player by stars, and while his PA is pretty good, he's never as good as the stars would lead you to believe. Bizarre, really shows that you can't trust star ratings this early at all.

[Matt_Ray]

On 16/03/2021 at 14:04, Nacaw said:

If you keep reloading preview day, you might change the names, but you won't know if there's a son amongst them, rendering the endeavour rather pointless. You'd have to save the game, holiday months from just before preview day to intake day, and then reload just before preview day again. 

Sorry, I meant more that there's no point at all reloading on the day before intake day as everything bar attributes and ability is already set in stone, and therefore the only day that will allow anything to change is the day before preview day.  But, yes, as you point out there's no way of knowing if you have a son in that intake until months later, making reloading at all, at any point, fairly futile.  I suspect this is deliberate on SI's part.

 

On 16/03/2021 at 14:04, Nacaw said:

Bizarre, really shows that you can't trust star ratings this early at all.

I could be wrong, but I think how the star ratings are calculated has changed - certainly how "best position" is worked out has.  A player's attributes for a position now seem to be far more important to their star rating than their ability score, which makes sense I guess.  A player with great speed and decent crossing and technique could still make an effective winger even if the rest of his stats are mediocre.  Likewise, Best Position is now a reflection of their attributes and positional strength, rather than just the latter.  Previously I think it was just whichever position the player was a natural in, whereas now I'm seeing lots of players having Best Position for a position they're only "accomplished" in.

Oh, and to answer your question, I would say my first team wingers are of a higher standard than my midfielders so I don't think that's what's affecting the ratings.

Edited March 19, 2021 by Matt_Ray

[vikeologist]

I've been following this thread because I hoped that someone would report getting a son, and I could ask to see their preview in case there was a clue within it heralding the arrival of a son.

Well, I've had a son, and there was absolutely nothing in the preview that could be a code or indication.

I'll chuck it here, just to firmly establish that it offers zero clues. My son is an unpromising central midfielder in the lower half of potential.

[richard.cheeseman]

I’ve never had one in over 15 years of playing since cm days...😢😢😢

[BuryBlade]

Only happened to me once (been playing since CM2 days) He was awful and had a name which my wife said we wouldn’t ever pick if we had a child! Haha

Didn’t stop me picking him every week, good old nepotism! 

[vikeologist]

Almost certainly never get a son again. My son's name is awful too; Barry!

What I'm hoping for is the golden ticket, Barry to come out as gay in the game.  That really would be a rarity. A gay son.

If he is gay, I'm going to force him into an arranged marriage with one of my others players called Harry Barry. 

I have the honour of introducing you for the fist time to the newly married couple Barry and Harry Barry.

Edited June 5, 2021 by vikeologist

[Matt_Ray]

On 30/05/2021 at 13:21, vikeologist said:

I've been following this thread because I hoped that someone would report getting a son, and I could ask to see their preview in case there was a clue within it heralding the arrival of a son.

Well, I've had a son, and there was absolutely nothing in the preview that could be a code or indication.

I'll chuck it here, just to firmly establish that it offers zero clues. My son is an unpromising central midfielder in the lower half of potential.

So it's confirmed, then - there's no advance warning at all, and nothing you can do as a player to improve the odds. I really hope SI do something about this - it should never be a dead cert but there should be something we can do to improve our chances, and some sort of notice that it's happening.  I mean, realistically, if you were managing at a club then you'd fricking know when your son joins the academy, surely? xD

[vikeologist]

2 hours ago, Matt_Ray said:

So it's confirmed, then - there's no advance warning at all, and nothing you can do as a player to improve the odds. I really hope SI do something about this - it should never be a dead cert but there should be something we can do to improve our chances, and some sort of notice that it's happening.  I mean, realistically, if you were managing at a club then you'd fricking know when your son joins the academy, surely? xD

The flipside is of course that should your 10,000-1 odds come up, you can keep reloading until you get a son with decent ability / potential. Obviously there are limits. Like my son was rubbish, (and because I'm doing a challenge I didn't reload to make him better, and also because it didn't occur to me). I did later go back though and see how good a son I could generate from reloading, and i did generate a few slightly better versions. He was in the lower middle of my intake, so he would never be a wonderful player. the parameters for each player are somewhat set before they arrive.

But that was just a test. In my actual save, I'm stuck with a donkey.

[Matt_Ray]

On 05/06/2021 at 19:22, vikeologist said:

The flipside is of course that should your 10,000-1 odds come up, you can keep reloading until you get a son with decent ability / potential. Obviously there are limits. Like my son was rubbish, (and because I'm doing a challenge I didn't reload to make him better, and also because it didn't occur to me). I did later go back though and see how good a son I could generate from reloading, and i did generate a few slightly better versions. He was in the lower middle of my intake, so he would never be a wonderful player. the parameters for each player are somewhat set before they arrive.

But that was just a test. In my actual save, I'm stuck with a donkey.

Mate, if I ever get a son actually come through, I would have zero qualms about using the in-game editor to give him 200 PA xD