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The Jack Grealish (and occasionally England) Thread: It's coming home attempt 5782570

Pukey

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Lucas

Lucas

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Was disappointed with the penalty loss and it felt all so familiar, the performance last night. Going in front, defending, conceding and eventually losing is something that I feel like I've experienced far too much as an England fan. 

But I wasn't angry or annoyed over the penalties. I realised that had we won, the only thing that would have been different was we scored more pens than the other side. In that situation it's harsh to say one side deserves it more than the other. We both took it to the very end, and we should be proud of that and the entire tournament. 

There are some questions and food for thought for future tournaments, but I'm immensely proud of our 26 lads that outlasted the tournament and gave us something to remember. 

Only a single goal conceded all tournament that wasn't from a dead ball. A young side with some younger talent on our bench getting full tournament experience for the next one. 

Couldn't be any prouder to be an England fan of this team and my heart and thoughts go out to them. It's been an exciting time to watch the England team as a fan in recent years and long may it continue. 

Qatar is only 18 months away, we will be back. 

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oche balboa

oche balboa

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8 minutes ago, skybluedave said:

We said that after 2018. 

I'm the opposite really. We will have chances. We have some exceptionally talented young players coming through. And while Southgate isn't everyone's cup of tea he is better at managing this lot then Hodgson, Big Sam, Capello  or whoever. 

He is. But the lack of tactical knowhow is a bit of an issue for Southgate. The Match felt like Croatia, We started well then sat back.

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enigmatic

enigmatic

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1 hour ago, Razzler said:

Didn't Shaw take a pen against Villarreal in that shoot out recently? I'd have been happy to see him take one, almost anyone other than Saka, not sure why he took one. Enough with the 'giving the eyes' and short run ups with this stuff, ffs but someone is going to take them. We don't need to villainise players though.

Shaw's penalty was eighth and should have been saved.

(Rashford tried the same penalty as in this shootout but made better contact with the ball FWIW)

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skybluedave

skybluedave

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True, but at the end of the day he's got us to a semi and final in 3 years. Is he perfect, obviously not. Unless I'm missing a blindingly obvious alternative Southgate is our best bet. Need to back him and hope he learns. The pleasing thing is he's learnt stuff from the WC for this tournament. 

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Lucas

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4 minutes ago, oche balboa said:

He is. But the lack of tactical knowhow is a bit of an issue for Southgate. The Match felt like Croatia, We started well then sat back.

Tactical know-how :D 
All tournament he was lauded for his tactical flexibility and willingness to make changes. 

We didn't really adapt well to their changes in the second half and ended up defending for most of it. 

It didn't pay off yesterday and that happens. Some of the changes were predictable though and some of the players were unable to effect the game to their best level.

He can only play the team he's got vs the team in front of him, I don't think it's down to tactical know-how.

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Razzler

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13 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

Shaw's penalty was eighth and should have been saved.

(Rashford tried the same penalty as in this shootout but made better contact with the ball FWIW)

Rashford's penalty was one of those that are stupid if you fluff the contact. They seem popular these days but I'd much rather pick a corner and put it away. Harry Maguire can do it!

The silly, short run ups, bah, just not a fan

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Bigwig

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I don’t think it’s unfair to be critical of Southgate’s game management. He’s done great work behind the scenes and should be rightly applauded for his achievements, but when it comes to match days I still think he’s missing that ruthless streak that other managers have.

Last year we had Deli Alli who wasn’t fit and didn’t perform but was somehow picked almost every game. This year Mount was the chosen one who no doubt is a good player but overall didn’t justify his game time when you had such a choice of talent to choose from.

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Tikka Mezzala

Tikka Mezzala

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I think England have the emerging team, while some of the other sides will be losing key elements (eg. Italy's defensive pairing). It all bodes well for the future. If England don't win a WC or EC in the next three tournaments, it would really surprise me. 

Hope everyone is doing okay this morning! I envy the moments you've got to experience together.

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bestbrother

bestbrother

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Qatar wont be about quality, it will be about attrition. Who can cope in silly heat, fancy stadiums or not.

Teams who can play slow football like Italy are likely to thrive. England who rely on pace and are unable to dictate the ball in big games may struggle.

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Bigwig

Bigwig

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8 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

Just feel like giving a shout out to the Euro 96 lads who are still the best set of penalty takers we've ever had. Shearer, Sheringham, Gazza, Platt, Pearce is elite.

Stick Pickford in with that lot and we win more shootouts than we lose. 

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oche balboa

oche balboa

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Just now, The_jagster said:

I feel really bad for Pickford, saves two penalties including Jorginho, and an amazing save that leads to the goal. You couldn't have asked for any more and his passing was still good.

Proved himself to be number 1 goalie for England

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bestbrother

bestbrother

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56 minutes ago, Razzler said:

I live in the Middle East and winter time in the region isn't too bad, especially in the evenings

Ive only been to Dubai 3 times and one of those was October and I love the heat dont get me wrong, but it was humid and horrible :D

But thats a small sample size, so if its normally cooler then should be alot better for the European teams.

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enigmatic

enigmatic

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6 minutes ago, metal_guitarist said:

I did wonder whether Pickford might have taken a penalty given who was left on the pitch. Took one in the Nations League shootout and scored. 

Psychologically would have been a great move. Saves what should have been a winner from Jorginho, comes out all fired up and smashes into the corner, and suddenly he's a giant in sudden death 

Unless he misses, obviously

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gibson147

gibson147

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6 minutes ago, The_jagster said:

I feel really bad for Pickford, saves two penalties including Jorginho, and an amazing save that leads to the goal. You couldn't have asked for any more and his passing was still good.

Yes, if that save hits the post and goes out for a corner... but to be honest it seemed inevitable that Italy would score as we were just sitting back and inviting them on.

Southgate seems to have a cautious streak, which to be fair has served him very well so far, but that first 30 minutes last night was crying out for a more positive approach as Italy were looking as poor as they had in the whole tournament. They were clearly rattled and we failed to take advantage. There was no way Italy would play that badly in the second half and so it proved.

To be honest it was a typical final which I imagine for a neutral to watch was not very entertaining. Neither side really deserved to win although overall I would give Italy the slight edge.

Once it goes to penalties in a final then everything goes out of the window, I mean who would think Jorginho would miss a spot kick? There is a long list of illustrious players who have missed penalties over the years so no disgrace there.

We move on and Southgate will have learned some things as will the younger players which they can take to the World Cup.

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Jorg

Jorg

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Southgate definitely seems to lack that ruthless streak when it comes to going for games and finishing teams off but he will have learned a lot from this tournament as well as all of the players.  He was criticised for being too cautious in the early games and ultimately that has cost him but at the same time it is a great achievement to get to the final and no disgrace to be beaten by a very good Italian side.  It's easy to let the negatives take over but on the whole it has been an excellent tournament.

There is a major championship every two years so I would be very surprised if England don't get very close again in the next 10 years with the crop of players they have.  

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The_jagster

The_jagster

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He looked back at how Portugal and France won it so he will clearly now be inspired by Italy to have a go next tournament ;)

It's going to be like Blair, next time he'll be more radical. And he won't be. Like last time when Gareth only played 3/5 at the back because of the personnel we had in defence.

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Bigwig

Bigwig

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I completely get the argument that you could leave yourself exposed if you push forward to kill games off, but have we seen that happen often with England?

I could understand if we’ve had our fingers burnt before but I can’t think of many occasions where we’ve lost for being too ambitious but can think of a few where we’ve tried to hold onto a slim lead and been punished. 

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Coulthard's Jaw

Coulthard's Jaw

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6 minutes ago, Bigwig said:

I completely get the argument that you could leave yourself exposed if you push forward to kill games off, but have we seen that happen often with England?

I could understand if we’ve had our fingers burnt before but I can’t think of many occasions where we’ve lost for being too ambitious but can think of a few where we’ve tried to hold onto a slim lead and been punished. 

It's weird because he made that bitchy comment about Sven back in the day, could definitely lay a lot of similar criticisms at Gareth's door (I was a big Sven fan before anybody starts).

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Razzler

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56 minutes ago, bestbrother said:

Ive only been to Dubai 3 times and one of those was October and I love the heat dont get me wrong, but it was humid and horrible :D

But thats a small sample size, so if its normally cooler then should be alot better for the European teams.

Yeah, October isn't the best but late November/December is warm but less humid, evenings are not too bad. I believe the tournament is Nov/Dec

Jan/Fed can be a bit chilly even

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Barry Cartman

Barry Cartman

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Dunno what to say really, gutted, might never have the chance to win another in my life time, just seems like a huge missed opportunity

Can't really blame anyone, didn't think either side deserved to win, Italy maybe slightly overall for actually working Pickford during the game. Defence were immense once again, to go a whole tournament only concede 1 goal from open play is incredible, they just didn't get that bit of luck when it was needed.

Sterling once again seemed like our only chance, no one else other than that short period at the start of the game looked like doing anything going forward. Kane was dead on his feet even before extra time, I think you stand a better chance in extra time bringing on Rashford instead of only thinking about penalties with Kane. We had loads of subs left, Italy were tired, if you bring on Rashford, Grealish and Sancho for extra time and have a go, I just think you give yourself a better chance of winning the game 

As for the pens, only Southgate and the players can answer that one. Whether they were the best in training, who knows, but we all know training is only a small part of a penalty shoot out. I thought Pickford and Shaw would be taking one for sure, didn't surprise me that Sterling didn't, he's missed loads of penalties for City, but he's also won a penalty shoot out in a cup final, so who has the better experience out of him and Saka 

and I don't know why I feel this way, but the sight of Henderson trotting off before a penalty shoot out after not being on long, just didn't sit right with me. Everyone talks about the need for experience in these situations, but to see one of your most experienced come off for young kids who wasn't even getting time to kick the ball, just didn't seem right 

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Smallen

Smallen

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21 minutes ago, Bigwig said:

I completely get the argument that you could leave yourself exposed if you push forward to kill games off, but have we seen that happen often with England?

I could understand if we’ve had our fingers burnt before but I can’t think of many occasions where we’ve lost for being too ambitious but can think of a few where we’ve tried to hold onto a slim lead and been punished. 

Nailed it. It’s practically impossible to over expose the team when it has Rice and Phillips sitting in midfield and a back three that contains Walker’s ridiculous recovery ability. That 5 covers most kind of attacks comfortably. 

First 30 we were great. Genuinely. After that we had Sterling and Mount tracking their full backs every time. Totally unnecessary in the formation we started with.

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Nad

Nad

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I wouldn't hold much hope that England are going to do anything in Qatar.

They've had two tournaments where all the cards have fallen in their favour. Benign draws, other good teams getting knocked out, some generous refereeing decisions, a home tournament here, taking the lead in the match where they ultimately lost etc. And they still couldn't win.

So considering they're unlikely to get such favourable circumstances again, this was as good as it could get.

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foolsgold

foolsgold

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4 minutes ago, Nad said:

I wouldn't hold much hope that England are going to do anything in Qatar.

They've had two tournaments where all the cards have fallen in their favour. Benign draws, other good teams getting knocked out, some generous refereeing decisions, a home tournament here, taking the lead in the match where they ultimately lost etc. And they still couldn't win.

So considering they're unlikely to get such favourable circumstances again, this was as good as it could get.

Apart from the fact that I'd expect this team to be considerably better in 2-3 years time.

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Coulthard's Jaw

Coulthard's Jaw

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9 minutes ago, Nad said:

I wouldn't hold much hope that England are going to do anything in Qatar.

They've had two tournaments where all the cards have fallen in their favour. Benign draws, other good teams getting knocked out, some generous refereeing decisions, a home tournament here, taking the lead in the match where they ultimately lost etc. And they still couldn't win.

So considering they're unlikely to get such favourable circumstances again, this was as good as it could get.

I think this is a decent take. The style of play we have developed involves lots of close tight matches, we are due something going wrong in a last 16 match. 

Also I suspect the last couple of tournaments have been a sweet spot in terms of building such a great collective, isn't a given it can be done again and again.

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enigmatic

enigmatic

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7 minutes ago, Bigwig said:

I could understand if we’ve had our fingers burnt before but I can’t think of many occasions where we’ve lost for being too ambitious but can think of a few where we’ve tried to hold onto a slim lead and been punished. 

Ambition or not, I can't think of many tournaments other than the last one where we actually held onto a lead against decent opponents for long tbh. 

Holding on to what you have is the norm in tournament football and our opponents were the masters of it.

France were this tournament's poster boys for being too ambitious...

 

Think Italy deserve a lot of the credit for sorting themselves out, and a lot of the giving the ball away was bad nervy passing rather than shape too. There are sides you can tear apart all game and Italy aren't one of them.

 

7 minutes ago, Barry Cartman said:

I thought Pickford and Shaw would be taking one for sure, didn't surprise me that Sterling didn't, he's missed loads of penalties for City, but he's also won a penalty shoot out in a cup final, so who has the better experience out of him and Saka 

Don't understand why people (other than Mourinho) expected Shaw to take one of the earlier ones, even if he was on a bit of a high. He's taken one penalty in professional football that I'm aware of, the eighth in a shootout, and it was rubbish. 

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Nad

Nad

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2 minutes ago, foolsgold said:

Apart from the fact that I'd expect this team to be considerably better in 2-3 years time.

It's 18 months away and there's no guarantee at all that the team will be better. You can always imagine that the younger players will improve but that's never assured; and there's always injuries, players out of form etc to contend with (whereas England pretty much had a fullly fit squad to pick from here I think, other than TAA missing).

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Barry Cartman

Barry Cartman

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Just now, enigmatic said:

Don't understand why people (other than Mourinho) expected Shaw to take one of the earlier ones, even if he was on a bit of a high. He's taken one penalty in professional football that I'm aware of, the eighth in a shootout, and it was rubbish.

More because of experience and the fact he'd scored one in a shoot out in a major game recently 

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SouthCoastRed

SouthCoastRed

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26 minutes ago, ginnybob said:

Those 3 penalty misses have been rushing around my head all night/morning. We're here again and it's gutting. 

Going to take a while to get over this one. 

Pretty much the same, I’ve seen them lose or flop a few more times than most of you probably, but it really seemed the stars had aligned this time with the draw etc, and it still went tits up at the final hurdle, and maybe it’s because of that, but this one hurts way more.

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Baptista_8

Baptista_8

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3 minutes ago, Jorg said:

Southgate did say the penalty choices were on him so that should be good enough to be honest.  Maybe Gareth should stay away from anything to do with penalties!  ;)

No one believed Southgate's words, even though he went into depth about why it was his decision, talking about training etc.

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