How we're introducing women's football into Football Manager

[PhilT]

5 hours ago, mikelfc8 said:

Of course you did/do. Nobody claimed you didn't/don't.

Didn't expect the replies I received. Think i've learnt a lesson to google questions I have in future rather than ask them on the forum lol 

[mikelfc8]

1 hour ago, PhilT said:

Didn't expect the replies I received. Think i've learnt a lesson to google questions I have in future rather than ask them on the forum lol 

Just as you have the right to post any question you want, so other posters have the right to question you.

This has been a pretty emotive announcement and, sadly, this thread has been plagued with misogyny.  Invoking god to make sure that you didn't have to play a game of football manager with women in it suggested your concerns went beyond your computer struggling with a more bloated game. I was interested if that was the case, so I asked.

You have stated that you have no issue with women's football being part of football manager, and that is splendid.

Edited August 20, 2021 by mikelfc8

[HUNT3R]

Tbf, we have no idea if it will affect performance or if it does, how much. This is something that more than a year away, at the very least (as there is no timeline, but confirmed it's not going to be FM22) so it's probably best to wait until there's more actual info to go on. "Performance" issues at this point is something we have no idea about. A lot of optimising can be done in conjuction with this being added, so the smart idea would be to wait until we know more. The thread was just to let us know it's coming and being worked on for the future. Let's wait for more details, before knee jerk reactions, no? 

[mikelfc8]

4 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Tbf, we have no idea if it will affect performance or if it does, how much. This is something that more than a year away, at the very least (as there is no timeline, but confirmed it's not going to be FM22) so it's probably best to wait until there's more actual info to go on. "Performance" issues at this point is something we have no idea about. A lot of optimising can be done in conjuction with this being added, so the smart idea would be to wait until we know more. The thread was just to let us know it's coming and being worked on for the future. Let's wait for more details, before knee jerk reactions, no? 

Exactly, let's wait and see.

[PhilT]

20 minutes ago, mikelfc8 said:

Just as you have the right to post any question you want, so other posters have the right to question you.

This has been a pretty emotive announcement and, sadly, this thread has been plagued with misogyny.  Invoking god to make sure that you didn't have to play a game of football manager with women in it suggested your concerns went beyond your computer struggling with a more bloated game. I was interested if that was the case, so I asked.

You have stated that you have no issue with women's football being part of football manager, and that is splendid.

Have the right to question me? Lol  This a games forum, not an inquest. Bye bye 

[mikelfc8]

6 minutes ago, PhilT said:

Have the right to question me? Lol  This a games forum, not an inquest. Bye bye 

Of course I have the right to ask you questions. As evidenced by me asking them. And you answering them. It is one of the primary functions of forums, even ones about games.

[PhilT]

12 minutes ago, mikelfc8 said:

Of course I have the right to ask you questions. As evidenced by me asking them. And you answering them. It is one of the primary functions of forums, even ones about games.

[HUNT3R]

Let's leave it there now, please. People are allowed different opinions.

[GoldenGoal]

I think of the previous 7 or so years of FM this is the feature that I'm most excited for, a really big but welcoming surprise! Thanks SI, looking forward to it.

[mattep74]

This will make me buy a FM again. I will enjoy the prospect of making a manager that like Stefan Rehn moved from the mens top division in Sweden to the womens to division or like Peter Gerhardsson that spent years building Häcken mens team to become a contender for the title and then got the job as the national team manager for the women and went to France in 2019 with a team that was not considered a contender and took the bronze and then came within a few meters to get the Olympic gold.

 

HOWEVER. If you are going to succeed in implementing the woman teams you  really need to remake the economic side. As of now it is geared towards the top divisions will millions in income, playing lower leagues with next to now income is hard. The women team have less cash and the salaries are much lower. FC Rosengård just sold a player to Everton and broke the record for the highest transfer sum recived in Sweden, around 200 000 Euros. 

 

I look forward to seeing the full game. 

In the 1990s i had womens teams, i played games on C64 and in the game Treble champions i changed every team to a team in the Swedish league and then changed every name i had on the squad to the sure names of the more famous players like Sundhage. 

Edited August 26, 2021 by mattep74

[mattep74]

On 19/08/2021 at 11:43, Piperita said:

As a feature, it is a feature. Like the online features, either editor, or the "replace a team with whoever you want"-mode it is something that can safely be ignored if it isn't one's cup of tea or be something that is essentially the entire game for others. I don't know how much I'd play this mode outside a beta-save or two, as I am pretty much set in what my main save will be by now and most minor saves are tactical tinkering building up to my style of the year.

------------

What I hope for is at least some integration between the modes and that the match engine in both modes will grow from new variables.

Integration: I am from Wolfsburg which has a pretty successful women's team and a men's team that recently acquired the tradition of either playing for Europe or against relegation. This also affected how many and which kinds of fans attended the games of the women's club (a while back they played in the biggish older stadium and men's seasonal cards were valid for the women's games as well). This also resulted in some men's coaches using a "Let's watch the women perform" as an alternative to a mid-week training camp for teambuilding, seeing the colours triumph, and (at least officially) for some tactical/fighting lessons. [Our old Coach Kellermann also always was in the running of "replacement coach the fans want" ^^].

Growth: What Miles wrote about "more lobs against smaller keepers" and similar reactivity is something that this new mode can and must explore but is also something that could ultimately bring the men's ME to new heights. Right now it makes little difference to the opposition whether or not I plays brick walls in defense or fast sweepers. It matters little to them whether I use a 20/20 Jumping/Strength tower up front or a small sprinter. When the opposition gets more aware of their opponent's size, it would make a huge difference!

I hope something similar goes to the handling of star players or star teams -- In women's football, at least in some leagues, the difference between top and bottom is much larger and due to the shorter amount of new players making the cut and the common amateur or half-amateur status there is just a different meta-game. Some teams use and abuse the top players they have. Others have a close-knit team and know how to handle the opposition's teams. Some are just hopelessly outclassed and some can waltz through most teams in their leagues and need to be made aware of the one or two hard opponents and whoever awaits in Europe. Right now teams in FM seldomly focus upon obvious star players way above the rest and have a strong tendency to either wall themselves in or go all-out in attack whenever the slightest bit of difference in reputation is detected.

Thats another issue that needs to be adressed. How to make it worthwile to play any other team than Wolfsburg in Germany or FC Rosengård/Häcken in Sweden when they have players that under the current system would have a CA of around 150-170 and face teams from the lower half of the table that have players with a CA at best around 110. How do you succed as those teams?   Playing FC Rosengård in Sweden will be like coaching the national team of Italy and play friendlies with Togo and win with 22-0 or more

 

[coolhandluke147]

really,how many women play this game,i would say none.what a waste of time.

devs you would be better of spending time fixing the bug expliots in the game.eg would be turings architecture has a big hole in it that turns the ai into headless chickens.that and the sidebuss expliots that havent been addressed since 2016.its not fun winning every trophy year after year.The mouse can still outrun the cat.

Edited September 8, 2021 by coolhandluke147
mispell

[forameuss]

Telling that that's the edited post.  Deary me.

1) It might shock you, but *gasp* women actually play this game
2) Prepare for another shock, but maybe some men might be interested in using this, just like some women might not be.  It's almost like there's no real link there, outside of really outdated stereotypes.
3) It's not one thing or the other with development.  Them doing this in no way blocks them from fixing bugs.

So all in all, an impressive amount wrong in so few words.

[HHUK]

I'm excited for this honestly, I don't watch much women's football but I'd enjoy playing with the different economic model, a different world where nations like USA can compete. Many of us love fantasy leagues made by the community and for non-watchers it would be a similar experience, it could be some people's first exposure to something they get into.

I remember an English lesson I had in 2001, the PE teacher was a substitute and she was smiling away at her laptop during the class, I got up to have a sneak at her screen and she let out a "YESSSS" under her breath, I said "Miss what have you done?" and she turned around in a fluster, she'd won in the Champions League Semi Final. Football Manager is a game for everyone.

[rusty217]

23 hours ago, HHUK said:

I remember an English lesson I had in 2001, the PE teacher was a substitute and she was smiling away at her laptop during the class, I got up to have a sneak at her screen and she let out a "YESSSS" under her breath, I said "Miss what have you done?" and she turned around in a fluster, she'd won in the Champions League Semi Final. Football Manager is a game for everyone.

Playing FM during class? Not a very good teacher! :P

[DMaster2]

I was expecting it sooner or later, but honestly i'm not sure the game can afford it. We had a FM21 with basically no new feature of impact, with a broken transfer system and a prehistoric graphic (and features requested for years and still to be implemented, the need of a complete overhaul of the international management side of the game, etc... And let's not even talk about bugs. I've reported one basic editor bug like 2 freaking years ago, last year and this year and it's still yet to be fixed...) and i'd rather see SI focus on that well before sparing time and resources on the women's part (they may got staff exclusively for that part, yet i'd rather see those new staff and resources used for the "main" game...).

I'm ok with it but first i'd like to proper improvement on all the areas of the man's part, which is what like 90% of the FM players will focus the most time on (let's be realistic...).

Edited September 10, 2021 by DMaster2

[XaW]

22 minutes ago, DMaster2 said:

I'm ok with it but first i'd like to proper improvement on all the areas of the man's part, which is what like 90% of the FM players will focus the most time on (let's be realistic...).

I can't believe we have to write this again, but here goes. The group that will focus on this new feature IS NOT THE SAME THAT FOCUSES ON THE REST OF THE GAME.

It's there in the thread and article that they have allocated extra resources to work on this feature.

Please have a read through the thread for more detailed descriptions before you post anything more about the other things you'd like to see instead of this.

[DMaster2]

2 ore fa, XaW ha scritto:

I can't believe we have to write this again, but here goes. The group that will focus on this new feature IS NOT THE SAME THAT FOCUSES ON THE REST OF THE GAME.

It's there in the thread and article that they have allocated extra resources to work on this feature.

Please have a read through the thread for more detailed descriptions before you post anything more about the other things you'd like to see instead of this.

Except i did? This part "yet i'd rather see those new staff and resources used for the "main" game...). " it's literally above the part you quoted. Yes, i'm aware they expanded the staff to take care of the woman's football, yet i'd preferred if that staff was used to deliver a quality game first and then when groundwork for the "main" game is ready they could focus on the female part.

Let's be honest, this year the new features has been nonexistant basically and the transfer system was a mess. If we get another barebone "new feature" next year it would be quite disappointing.

Edited September 10, 2021 by DMaster2

[XaW]

1 minute ago, DMaster2 said:

Except i did? This part "yet i'd rather see those new staff and resources used for the "main" game...). " it's literally above the part you quoted. Yes, i'm aware they expanded the staff to take care of the woman's football, yet i'd preferred if that staff was used to deliver a quality game first and then when groundwork for the "main" game is ready they could focus on the female part.

You can't have read it if that's what you believe. SI said they use extra resources to do this, so it is in addition to the normal. If they didn't do this, that does NOT mean they would use the same money to get in extra resources. So this is an OPTIONAL extra thing for the game you can enjoy or not, in the same way adding the MLS was when they added it. I use the MLS as the example due to the draft system, and money allocation that few other leagues use. If you have issue with the features/fixes added (or not added) to the game, then that's fine, write it in the feedback thread. However, the inclusion of women's football doesn't have anything to do with it, due to the extra resources allocated.

So keep those things separated and THEN give your view on women's football. Why be negative? If you don't want to play with it? Fine, don't. Many other will want to, and it will make the game more inclusive to women than it currently is. And it could also be used to make the general football fan that plays FM more knowledgeable of woman's football. Neither of those things are negative.

The only reason we've seen in this thread to actively dislike it borders on misogyny or a fear of "losing the manliness" in football. That some don't care about it? That's perfectly fine, but using time and effort to try to belittle the addition of women's football in FM really falls into that category. So taking away the non-issue of bugs not fixed or other features missing, what is the reason for not wanting it added? Still none in here who have made a good argument about it that is not negative about women as a gender.

[GoldenGoal]

10 horas atrás, DMaster2 disse:

Yes, i'm aware they expanded the staff to take care of the woman's football, yet i'd preferred if that staff was used to deliver a quality game first and then when groundwork for the "main" game is ready they could focus on the female part.

Deliver a quality game first? The series has been coming out every year since 2005, and several of these were well received. When is one supposed to consider that a yearly-released game is finally at enough "quality" for this feature? This just seems like another excuse to move the goalposts and say this feature should never be included, just like those who keep saying all bugs must be fixed before this is added.

 

10 horas atrás, DMaster2 disse:

Let's be honest, this year the new features has been nonexistant basically and the transfer system was a mess. If we get another barebone "new feature" next year it would be quite disappointing.

And this is a perfectly valid new feature. Probably one of, if not the biggest since the series started (the other major ones I remember are the 3d match engine in FM2009, the introduction of FM Classic/Touch in FM2013 and the removal of tactics sliders in FM2014).

 

[DMaster2]

7 ore fa, GoldenGoal ha scritto:

Deliver a quality game first? The series has been coming out every year since 2005, and several of these were well received. When is one supposed to consider that a yearly-released game is finally at enough "quality" for this feature? This just seems like another excuse to move the goalposts and say this feature should never be included, just like those who keep saying all bugs must be fixed before this is added.

 

And this is a perfectly valid new feature. Probably one of, if not the biggest since the series started (the other major ones I remember are the 3d match engine in FM2009, the introduction of FM Classic/Touch in FM2013 and the removal of tactics sliders in FM2014).

 

1) When there aren't major issues with the ME,  gamebreaking bugs, etc... that don't require 3 patches to sort them out? And let's not mention the lack of reworks needed for years now like graphics, transfer system, international management, etc...

I'm not moving anything and i don't have any issue with them adding ladies football but this year's version has been a disaster (imho, before someone wants to argument on this) with basically nothing new substantially, a broken ME that took 3 patches to sort it out and a broken transfer system that isn't sorted out even after those, so i would be rather annoyed if the next game end up similar to this due to a focus shift.

2) But it's not a feature that will be delivered on the next version which is my top priority atm, while they are indeed spending time and resources for something that will come at 2023 at the earliest.

Again if in the new features highlight i see quality stuff i'm more than happy, if i see something similar to last year not so much.

[DMaster2]

18 ore fa, XaW ha scritto:

You can't have read it if that's what you believe. SI said they use extra resources to do this, so it is in addition to the normal. If they didn't do this, that does NOT mean they would use the same money to get in extra resources. So this is an OPTIONAL extra thing for the game you can enjoy or not, in the same way adding the MLS was when they added it. I use the MLS as the example due to the draft system, and money allocation that few other leagues use. If you have issue with the features/fixes added (or not added) to the game, then that's fine, write it in the feedback thread. However, the inclusion of women's football doesn't have anything to do with it, due to the extra resources allocated.

Considering this year i think they could use an improvement on the staff of the "main" game as well... But i guess since there is no competition they aren't in a hurry to improve the game i guess.

[mikelfc8]

9 minutes ago, DMaster2 said:

Considering this year i think they could use an improvement on the staff of the "main" game as well... But i guess since there is no competition they aren't in a hurry to improve the game i guess.

 

11 minutes ago, DMaster2 said:

1) When there aren't major issues with the ME,  gamebreaking bugs, etc... that don't require 3 patches to sort them out? And let's not mention the lack of reworks needed for years now like graphics, transfer system, international management, etc...

I'm not moving anything and i don't have any issue with them adding ladies football but this year's version has been a disaster (imho, before someone wants to argument on this) with basically nothing new substantially, a broken ME that took 3 patches to sort it out and a broken transfer system that isn't sorted out even after those, so i would be rather annoyed if the next game end up similar to this due to a focus shift.

2) But it's not a feature that will be delivered on the next version which is my top priority atm, while they are indeed spending time and resources for something that will come at 2023 at the earliest.

Again if in the new features highlight i see quality stuff i'm more than happy, if i see something similar to last year not so much.

Seeing as you have stated that there are problems that go back years and have never been resolved, have you consistently complained over those years about every new feature that potentially distracted from improving the 'main' game?

Edited September 11, 2021 by mikelfc8

[themadsheep2001]

Ultimately it doesn't matter. It's coming anyway, and I'm looking forward to it. The more immersive elements in the game the better. 

[GoldenGoal]

1 hora atrás, DMaster2 disse:

1) When there aren't major issues with the ME,  gamebreaking bugs, etc... that don't require 3 patches to sort them out? And let's not mention the lack of reworks needed for years now like graphics, transfer system, international management, etc...

I'm not moving anything and i don't have any issue with them adding ladies football but this year's version has been a disaster (imho, before someone wants to argument on this) with basically nothing new substantially, a broken ME that took 3 patches to sort it out and a broken transfer system that isn't sorted out even after those, so i would be rather annoyed if the next game end up similar to this due to a focus shift.

Ever since FM 2005 there have been 3 patches or more for each version. Do you think that we need something like another 16 years before including this feature? Have you used this same argument since FM 2013 that the game needs to focus on these bugs before including a Classic/Touch version?

If they had done as you ask we would have the same game since FM 2005 to FM 2021. No "features" until bugs have been fixed since those features would take time and resources from bug fixing actions.

Just because there are new features being worked on does not mean bugs cannot be fixed at the same time these new features are developed.

[DMaster2]

5 ore fa, mikelfc8 ha scritto:

 

Seeing as you have stated that there are problems that go back years and have never been resolved, have you consistently complained over those years about every new feature that potentially distracted from improving the 'main' game?

I've been extremely critical last summer when the headline features for fm21 were a big fat nothing, but since i'm an die hard fan of the game i ended up purchasing it again... And honestly the only good thing about this year is the optimization in terms of time saved when loading/saving and going through the season. Stop, that's pretty much it.

I'll watch closely what the new features are this year and what got fixed and what didn't, before buying this time.

[mikelfc8]

32 minutes ago, DMaster2 said:

I've been extremely critical last summer when the headline features for fm21 were a big fat nothing, but since i'm an die hard fan of the game i ended up purchasing it again... And honestly the only good thing about this year is the optimization in terms of time saved when loading/saving and going through the season. Stop, that's pretty much it.

I'll watch closely what the new features are this year and what got fixed and what didn't, before buying this time.

... nevermind, thought better of it

Edited September 11, 2021 by mikelfc8

[Bradley21]

On 10/09/2021 at 19:45, XaW said:

 

The only reason we've seen in this thread to actively dislike it borders on misogyny or a fear of "losing the manliness" in football. 

This is a straight up insult to anyone who doesn't want the mode added for purely gameplay reasons. You say there are no reasons to be upset about this but there are plenty. Whether you agree or not isn't relevant, you can't just call everyone who disagree with the addition - or you - a misogynist. That's point blank offensive, but it seems the moderators of this forum love to throw insults around while censoring anything negative anybody else says on here.

 

As far as i'm concerned, it's a mode i won't play because i have zero interest in it, and i actively dislike it's addition for the following reasons:

 

1) A very small % of the playerbase will play it long term, certainly a % that won't make the development cost and resources worthwhile. FIFA added womens international matches and only 4.04% of players even opened the mode, never mind continued playing long term. Now FM has an older and probably more progressive playerbase than FIFA, and this will be an entire mode rather than just international games, but that % will still be very small. 

2) You say it didn't impact development because a new team was hired. Well to that i say that the game has been dire for years in terms of new features and refinement, so why was a new team never added to fix clearly broken or useless things like the AI transfers system, player progression, ME improvements, graphical improvements, youth academy improvements, more realistic injury module, better network game features, improves media....there are lots of things players would love a new team added to tackle. 

3) Performance issues could be a thing. Now if the mode is entirely separate then fine, it isn't an issue, but i suspect that somewhere along the line it will interact with the main game. More than happy to be proven wrong here though. 

Adding the womens game is obviously brilliant for inclusion, and it gives Miles some lovely PR, but I don't think those reasons are good enough to make it worthwhile for the average player. It's funny that is a progressive and left wing addition to the game, but everyone defending it is quite happy to just rubbish everyone off as a misogynist if they disagree with them, a very right wing way to go about discussions. 

[mikelfc8]

45 minutes ago, Bradley21 said:

This is a straight up insult to anyone who doesn't want the mode added for purely gameplay reasons. You say there are no reasons to be upset about this but there are plenty. Whether you agree or not isn't relevant, you can't just call everyone who disagree with the addition - or you - a misogynist. That's point blank offensive, but it seems the moderators of this forum love to throw insults around while censoring anything negative anybody else says on here.

 

As far as i'm concerned, it's a mode i won't play because i have zero interest in it, and i actively dislike it's addition for the following reasons:

 

1) A very small % of the playerbase will play it long term, certainly a % that won't make the development cost and resources worthwhile. FIFA added womens international matches and only 4.04% of players even opened the mode, never mind continued playing long term. Now FM has an older and probably more progressive playerbase than FIFA, and this will be an entire mode rather than just international games, but that % will still be very small. 

2) You say it didn't impact development because a new team was hired. Well to that i say that the game has been dire for years in terms of new features and refinement, so why was a new team never added to fix clearly broken or useless things like the AI transfers system, player progression, ME improvements, graphical improvements, youth academy improvements, more realistic injury module, better network game features, improves media....there are lots of things players would love a new team added to tackle. 

3) Performance issues could be a thing. Now if the mode is entirely separate then fine, it isn't an issue, but i suspect that somewhere along the line it will interact with the main game. More than happy to be proven wrong here though. 

Adding the womens game is obviously brilliant for inclusion, and it gives Miles some lovely PR, but I don't think those reasons are good enough to make it worthwhile for the average player. It's funny that is a progressive and left wing addition to the game, but everyone defending it is quite happy to just rubbish everyone off as a misogynist if they disagree with them, a very right wing way to go about discussions. 

Have you actively disliked the addition of any other features?

[XaW]

31 minutes ago, Bradley21 said:

This is a straight up insult to anyone who doesn't want the mode added for purely gameplay reasons. You say there are no reasons to be upset about this but there are plenty. Whether you agree or not isn't relevant, you can't just call everyone who disagree with the addition - or you - a misogynist. That's point blank offensive, but it seems the moderators of this forum love to throw insults around while censoring anything negative anybody else says on here.

If this insulted you, then I must have hit a nerve. What "gameplay" reasons do are you referring to? The option to add it? For what it's worth, I haven't called anyone who haven't outed themselves as one a misogynist in here. I've wrote that I haven't heard any reasonable reason to NOT include women's football other than misogynist ideas and statements. And that is something I still think. I've not said a thing about those saying, I don't have any interest in it, because that's a perfectly fine response for those who don't care about it, but going out of your way to be negative about it without any reason behind it makes it quite obvious that misogyny the reason. If you think I or anyone else in here have called you anything you are offended by, I'd advise you to report us by using the "contact us" button at the bottom here.

37 minutes ago, Bradley21 said:

1) A very small % of the playerbase will play it long term, certainly a % that won't make the development cost and resources worthwhile. FIFA added womens international matches and only 4.04% of players even opened the mode, never mind continued playing long term. Now FM has an older and probably more progressive playerbase than FIFA, and this will be an entire mode rather than just international games, but that % will still be very small. 

That is true, and I don't think it will be a major turnaround here either, but as Miles wrote, they do this to make women included into the game, not for financial gains in the short term. Once again, if you don't want to manage in the women's leagues, then don't. I don't like to manage in the MLS because the whole thing is just wrong in my mind, so I just leave it alone. You can do the same for this.

39 minutes ago, Bradley21 said:

2) You say it didn't impact development because a new team was hired. Well to that i say that the game has been dire for years in terms of new features and refinement, so why was a new team never added to fix clearly broken or useless things like the AI transfers system, player progression, ME improvements, graphical improvements, youth academy improvements, more realistic injury module, better network game features, improves media....there are lots of things players would love a new team added to tackle. 

Because SI wanted to put the money in to do this. You are certainly entitled to say that you think SI should have invested more in the game in previous years. That is a valid complain, but SI are also in their right to focus on whatever features or redesigns they see fit. I certainly don't agree with all the changes the game has made, and I wish they had focused on other things earlier. I don't see the reason for a mobile version and if I had any say it wouldn't have happened, but SI did that as a side project in the same way they now do this with women's football. How projects work have been written page up and page down in here trying to explain that if SI didn't want to include women's football, that doesn't mean that other features would get more things. This is not a zero sum equation...

46 minutes ago, Bradley21 said:

3) Performance issues could be a thing. Now if the mode is entirely separate then fine, it isn't an issue, but i suspect that somewhere along the line it will interact with the main game. More than happy to be proven wrong here though. 

Why is this even a topic? A potential issue that could arise at a future time is clearly not a reason to dislike it, this is far into strawman territory.

47 minutes ago, Bradley21 said:

Adding the womens game is obviously brilliant for inclusion, and it gives Miles some lovely PR, but I don't think those reasons are good enough to make it worthwhile for the average player. It's funny that is a progressive and left wing addition to the game, but everyone defending it is quite happy to just rubbish everyone off as a misogynist if they disagree with them, a very right wing way to go about discussions. 

It certainly is good for inclusion and making the game more available and open to women, and it also opens women's football to a potential wider audience. And the PR Miles and SI gets I'm sure are welcome, but based on how SI have put forth things as far back as I can remember, they have always been for inclusion for everyone, so this is certainly true to the ethos and policy of the company. I really don't think that adding women's football to a game is a "left wing" choice, and I certainly wouldn't brush anyone of based on their political standing like that. For what it's worth, all my life I've voted on the right side of the political spectrum (I've even posted a chart in a thread in OTF of it for heavens sake!) .

The reason misogyny are brought in here is because of the level of hate towards women that have been spouted (and removed!) here. And the anger that brings out in a decent sized chuck of people. I've written here before that I don't see any reason to be negative towards it, and the gist of each and every of the complaints is "I don't like women's football so I don't want it in the game". If anyone brings forward a reasonable complaint, I'm more than happy to discuss it and try to see the reason behind it, but as of yet I've seen misogyny and strawmen, nothing else.

[Bradley21]

8 minutes ago, mikelfc8 said:

Have you actively disliked the addition of any other features?

Yes. The media questions and interviews. They take up time, very rarely make sense, are repetitive and are nothing but an annoyance. 

 

[Bradley21]

2 minutes ago, XaW said:

If this insulted you, then I must have hit a nerve. What "gameplay" reasons do are you referring to? The option to add it? For what it's worth, I haven't called anyone who haven't outed themselves as one a misogynist in here. I've wrote that I haven't heard any reasonable reason to NOT include women's football other than misogynist ideas and statements. And that is something I still think. I've not said a thing about those saying, I don't have any interest in it, because that's a perfectly fine response for those who don't care about it, but going out of your way to be negative about it without any reason behind it makes it quite obvious that misogyny the reason. If you think I or anyone else in here have called you anything you are offended by, I'd advise you to report us by using the "contact us" button at the bottom here.

That is true, and I don't think it will be a major turnaround here either, but as Miles wrote, they do this to make women included into the game, not for financial gains in the short term. Once again, if you don't want to manage in the women's leagues, then don't. I don't like to manage in the MLS because the whole thing is just wrong in my mind, so I just leave it alone. You can do the same for this.

Because SI wanted to put the money in to do this. You are certainly entitled to say that you think SI should have invested more in the game in previous years. That is a valid complain, but SI are also in their right to focus on whatever features or redesigns they see fit. I certainly don't agree with all the changes the game has made, and I wish they had focused on other things earlier. I don't see the reason for a mobile version and if I had any say it wouldn't have happened, but SI did that as a side project in the same way they now do this with women's football. How projects work have been written page up and page down in here trying to explain that if SI didn't want to include women's football, that doesn't mean that other features would get more things. This is not a zero sum equation...

Why is this even a topic? A potential issue that could arise at a future time is clearly not a reason to dislike it, this is far into strawman territory.

It certainly is good for inclusion and making the game more available and open to women, and it also opens women's football to a potential wider audience. And the PR Miles and SI gets I'm sure are welcome, but based on how SI have put forth things as far back as I can remember, they have always been for inclusion for everyone, so this is certainly true to the ethos and policy of the company. I really don't think that adding women's football to a game is a "left wing" choice, and I certainly wouldn't brush anyone of based on their political standing like that. For what it's worth, all my life I've voted on the right side of the political spectrum (I've even posted a chart in a thread in OTF of it for heavens sake!) .

The reason misogyny are brought in here is because of the level of hate towards women that have been spouted (and removed!) here. And the anger that brings out in a decent sized chuck of people. I've written here before that I don't see any reason to be negative towards it, and the gist of each and every of the complaints is "I don't like women's football so I don't want it in the game". If anyone brings forward a reasonable complaint, I'm more than happy to discuss it and try to see the reason behind it, but as of yet I've seen misogyny and strawmen, nothing else.

I really wish it was worth replying to this post in any depth, but all you've done is accuse me of being a misogynist and pushing aside anything i say due to this. Nowhere did i say i dislike womens football and nowhere did i rail on women. You accuse me of a strawman, but your whole stance on everyone being a misogynist to deflect discourse/support your own agenda is the largest strawman in the room. 

Although, you being a right wing voter says it all about your ability to see other sides of the coin and partake in reasonable discourse. So i shouldn't be surprised. 

[mikelfc8]

7 minutes ago, Bradley21 said:

Yes. The media questions and interviews. They take up time, very rarely make sense, are repetitive and are nothing but an annoyance. 

 

They are all reactions to the in-game experience, not the announcement of the feature. I should have been clearer.

Have you actively disliked the announcement of any other feature?

[XaW]

Just now, Bradley21 said:

I really wish it was worth replying to this post in any depth, but all you've done is accuse me of being a misogynist and pushing aside anything i say due to this. Nowhere did i say i dislike womens football and nowhere did i rail on women. You accuse me of a strawman, but your whole stance on everyone being a misogynist to deflect discourse/support your own agenda is the largest strawman in the room. 

Although, you being a right wing voter says it all about your ability to see other sides of the coin and partake in reasonable discourse. So i shouldn't be surprised. 

I explained that in the post and did not accuse you of anything, I simply asked for any reason for negativity. Also complaining I'm too left wing AND too right wing doesn't really make sense.

Anyway, you've made you views known. Let's leave it at that.

[mikelfc8]

9 minutes ago, Bradley21 said:

I really wish it was worth replying to this post in any depth, but all you've done is accuse me of being a misogynist and pushing aside anything i say due to this. Nowhere did i say i dislike womens football and nowhere did i rail on women. You accuse me of a strawman, but your whole stance on everyone being a misogynist to deflect discourse/support your own agenda is the largest strawman in the room. 

Although, you being a right wing voter says it all about your ability to see other sides of the coin and partake in reasonable discourse. So i shouldn't be surprised. 

When you're complaining about being stereotyped it might be an idea to avoid stereotyping.

[Bradley21]

4 minutes ago, XaW said:

I explained that in the post and did not accuse you of anything, I simply asked for any reason for negativity. Also complaining I'm too left wing AND too right wing doesn't really make sense.

Anyway, you've made you views known. Let's leave it at that.

You have several times said that everything you've heard people say on the topic boils down to misogyny, one of which is my post, which you are directly replying to. Therefore it is reasonable to assume you are referring to me in your comments. If i said "I've never seen anyone with a spriteart avatar who wasn't a *insert descriptor here*" you would quite rightly assume that i was referring to you, even i didn't name you explicitly, so you're not fooling anyone with this. 

Andi never complained about anyone being left wing, i simply stated it is a progressive feature which is being defended in a very conservative manner. I find that amusing, and you trying to twist my words and the narrative again is sad. 

6 minutes ago, mikelfc8 said:

They are all reactions to the in-game experience, not the announcement of the feature. I should have been clearer.

Have you actively disliked the announcement of any other feature?

I don't understand the point of this, just say what you want to say. 

 

[mikelfc8]

19 minutes ago, Bradley21 said:

You have several times said that everything you've heard people say on the topic boils down to misogyny, one of which is my post, which you are directly replying to. Therefore it is reasonable to assume you are referring to me in your comments. If i said "I've never seen anyone with a spriteart avatar who wasn't a *insert descriptor here*" you would quite rightly assume that i was referring to you, even i didn't name you explicitly, so you're not fooling anyone with this. 

Andi never complained about anyone being left wing, i simply stated it is a progressive feature which is being defended in a very conservative manner. I find that amusing, and you trying to twist my words and the narrative again is sad. 

I don't understand the point of this, just say what you want to say. 

 

I don't want to say anything, I want to know if you have complained about the announcement of every new addition that meets the criteria under which you justified your dislike of the addition of women's football.

If you have, and have the posts to back it up, then fair enough.

If you haven't, then I'll be interested in why not.

Edited September 11, 2021 by mikelfc8

[XaW]

3 minutes ago, Bradley21 said:

You have several times said that everything you've heard people say on the topic boils down to misogyny, one of which is my post, which you are directly replying to. Therefore it is reasonable to assume you are referring to me in your comments. If i said "I've never seen anyone with a spriteart avatar who wasn't a *insert descriptor here*" you would quite rightly assume that i was referring to you, even i didn't name you explicitly, so you're not fooling anyone with this. 

Andi never complained about anyone being left wing, i simply stated it is a progressive feature which is being defended in a very conservative manner. I find that amusing, and you trying to twist my words and the narrative again is sad. 

I haven't called you a misogynist, what I said was that the reasons for being negative here have so far boiled down to misogyny in every case. As for you, I've only asked to explain why you think it's a bad idea. If you don't care about women's football as you said, then why spend so much time and effort here? Especially with a feature that is completely optional some time in the future? If you didn't care, a more normal response would be "not my thing, but good for those who want it", as several others have written in here already.

Anyway, we've derailed this topic enough, if you want to discuss it further then please PM me, and we can have a discussion in private about it.

[mikelfc8]

@XaW is that a request for me to let it go too?

Edited September 11, 2021 by mikelfc8

[XaW]

2 minutes ago, mikelfc8 said:

@XaW is that a request for me to let it go too

Please do. Let's keep this thread on topic from here on.

[mikelfc8]

1 minute ago, XaW said:

Please do. Let's keep this thread on topic from here on.

No problem

[santy001]

Just a general bit of advice, if you don't plan on playing the women's side of the game because it doesn't interest you - that is absolutely a valid and indisputable thing you can say. There are no problems with that on any side. 

When you move into trying to diagnose why you think its bad or what you think the problems with it will be, you move into an area of usually being incredibly misguided. When you're trying to argue against it for these largely fabricated and unestablished reasons, it raises more questions about why people do that naturally. People will then draw their own conclusions whether it manifests in a forum post or not.

- - - - -

Ultimately it shows why SI are probably right to keep their multi-year feature projects (because it seems a given to me that this isn't the only one they've ever had or have) under wraps because considerations seem to so frequently move towards the negative aspects.

No one seems to be mentioning that with more player progression models being coded, more physics and interplay coding for players who are shorter (given that women on average are shorter than men), more financial models and all the other things that need to be coded for this add to the games overall resources moving forward. Once something exists in the codebase for the game, further modules can be quickly built with some repurposes or adjusting of parameters. 

If one of these new devs who works on the women's football ME codes up some amazing shooting for the game, I'm fairly sure the other side of the team working on the men's ME will bring that across and get the necessary animation adjustments sorted. 

[Superowl90]

Brilliant read on the article of introducing women's football into the game, I for one look forward to how it turns out

[forameuss]

9 hours ago, santy001 said:

Just a general bit of advice, if you don't plan on playing the women's side of the game because it doesn't interest you - that is absolutely a valid and indisputable thing you can say. There are no problems with that on any side. 

When you move into trying to diagnose why you think its bad or what you think the problems with it will be, you move into an area of usually being incredibly misguided. When you're trying to argue against it for these largely fabricated and unestablished reasons, it raises more questions about why people do that naturally. People will then draw their own conclusions whether it manifests in a forum post or not.

- - - - -

Ultimately it shows why SI are probably right to keep their multi-year feature projects (because it seems a given to me that this isn't the only one they've ever had or have) under wraps because considerations seem to so frequently move towards the negative aspects.

No one seems to be mentioning that with more player progression models being coded, more physics and interplay coding for players who are shorter (given that women on average are shorter than men), more financial models and all the other things that need to be coded for this add to the games overall resources moving forward. Once something exists in the codebase for the game, further modules can be quickly built with some repurposes or adjusting of parameters. 

If one of these new devs who works on the women's football ME codes up some amazing shooting for the game, I'm fairly sure the other side of the team working on the men's ME will bring that across and get the necessary animation adjustments sorted. 

That's a point that hasn't been mentioned much as far as I can see.  If they want to do this right, it'll likely need, at least, another flavour of the ME they have, and if not a different ME entirely.  In either event, that's new eyes and new ideas in one of the key parts of the game, and maybe those ideas lead to improvements across the board.  And like you say, it doesn't stop at just the ME.  More generally, having to do things a different way may move them out of certain situations of "well, it's always been like this" to asking "could we do it differently?"

[DMaster2]

18 ore fa, mikelfc8 ha scritto:

Have you actively disliked the addition of any other features?

Not him but yes, the whole media/press conferences is a huge waste of time (for both players and developers) and resources for something most people (myself included) just delegate to the assman.

[themadsheep2001]

9 hours ago, forameuss said:

That's a point that hasn't been mentioned much as far as I can see.  If they want to do this right, it'll likely need, at least, another flavour of the ME they have, and if not a different ME entirely.  In either event, that's new eyes and new ideas in one of the key parts of the game, and maybe those ideas lead to improvements across the board.  And like you say, it doesn't stop at just the ME.  More generally, having to do things a different way may move them out of certain situations of "well, it's always been like this" to asking "could we do it differently?"

Yep. One of the criticisms of the current ME is that players move too similarly. They will need to make women's football move differently. Which means they will have a module they can use to tweak men's football within the game too. Ultimately if they do it right, it's a win all across the board. 

[Mars_Blackmon]

On 12/09/2021 at 14:06, themadsheep2001 said:

Yep. One of the criticisms of the current ME is that players move too similarly. They will need to make women's football move differently. Which means they will have a module they can use to tweak men's football within the game too. Ultimately if they do it right, it's a win all across the board. 

I just hope with this addition, attributes will actually matter more. Having a world class player should feel like driving a world class sports car compared to a non league player let alone woman’s division.

[goalash]

@Neil BrockWomen’s football fan here. Do you need database researchers or other forms of support?

[Ampalaea4]

On 23/07/2021 at 18:20, Bleb Blebster said:

add in the deaf leagues, the gay leagues etc etc

you really couldnt hide your feelings by just commenting for womens football, didnt you? 

[FrazT]

6 hours ago, Ampalaea4 said:

you really couldnt hide your feelings by just commenting for womens football, didnt you? 

That post was dealt with by the Mod Team at the time and you did not need to go back to a post from10 weeks ago to make a comment like this