Attributes

[Lesnarking]

I can't quite understand if anyone can explain the player attributes in detail, for example, can anyone explain what happens if this attributes is high or low?

Edited August 13, 2021 by Lesnarking

[XaW]

Everything is in the manual:

 

[Lesnarking]

7 minutes ago, XaW said:

Everything is in the manual:

 

I read this but I don't quite understand

[Grifty]

Generally, the higher the attribute, the better the player is at that.

 

I don't mean to be rude, I know you are making a patch where you seemingly have re-done the attributes, but you don't seem to know what any of them are? I get the feeling it's going to be a bit of a disaster!

[santy001]

As @XaW mentions, the manual is the best place to start. 

In general though its worth pointing out that the context of attributes are purely on the basis of professional footballers. Therefore, a rating of 1 in an attribute is still far superior to the average person on the street and the gap between 1 and 20 is less than you might otherwise think.

For physical attributes like strength and pace these aren't universal either. So Usain Bolt at his 100m prime wouldn't necessarily be a 20 pace player if he did transition to football. Not because he isn't fast enough to be, but because he may have lacked the footballing intelligence to employ it correctly in a game. 

Overall a "higher" quality player (which really is something you have to decide on your own metrics for the position, the role and so on) the greater their chance of succeeding at what you want them to do. Higher quality players are more likely to be capable of a difficult role, or a role that gets greater pressure on it from opposition teams. 

[XaW]

1 minute ago, Lesnarking said:

I read this but I don't quite understand

What is it that you don't understand. Everything you asked in the post is written there.

12 minutes ago, Lesnarking said:

player attributes in detail

Quote

Technical Attributes

Corners

This attribute reflects how well the player takes a corner kick.

Crossing

This indicates a player’s proficiency at crossing the ball, predominantly but not exclusively from wide areas, into dangerous goalscoring positions.

Dribbling

This refers to the player’s ability to run with the ball and manipulate it under close control. This is purely their proficiency at moving with the ball at their feet; Pace, Acceleration, Agility, and Balance all aid dribbling in different circumstances. A player with higher ratings here is also able to move in more directions more fluidly with the ball than someone with a lower rating.

Finishing

The player’s ability to put the ball in the back of the net when presented with a chance. A high Finishing attribute puts the shot on target a majority of the time as a bare minimum and, compared to a player with poorer Finishing, finds the places where the goalkeeper can’t save it. This is purely the ability of the player to perform an accurate shot – Composure and Decisions also influence a player’s ability to score consistently.

First Touch

How good a player’s first touch is when receiving the ball. A higher rating ensures that the player can control the ball quicker and put it in a useful position to then act upon. Players with lower ratings here struggle to control the ball as adeptly and may be prone to losing the ball if closed down quickly.

Free Kick Taking              

This reflects how good at taking free kicks the player is. It solely applies to direct shots at goal; indirect free kicks are governed by other technical attributes like Crossing.

Heading

This is a player’s competence in aerial situations. Heading applies to all situations with the ball in the air and is only about the player’s ability to use their head well. Jumping Reach, Height, and to a lesser extent Strength all play a part in combination with heading to utilise the attribute to greater effect.

Long Shots

This is the player’s prowess at shooting from distance – from outside the penalty area. It is largely a stand-alone attribute but pay attention to any PPMs the player may have that complement their Long Shots rating.

Long Throws

The ability of the player to perform a long throw, which can be taken advantage of in attacking situations, or to help move the ball forward from defensive areas.

Marking

How well players, mainly defensive types, defend an opponent. Marking alone sees them do a good job of identifying, tracking, reacting to and denying opponents if the attribute is high, but remember that other attributes – Strength, Positioning, Anticipation –play a part in the effectiveness of the marking, as well as the comparable physical statures of the two players.

Passing

Passing refers strictly to how good the player is at passing the ball to a team-mate. Vision dictates whether or not they see different types of passing opportunity. Technique affects the quality of their execution (for example, whether the pass lands perfectly for a player to collect in stride). Passing itself, in isolation, determines how successful the player is at producing consistent success over different types of passing opportunities.

Penalty Taking

The ability of the player from the penalty spot. Composure is also factored into whether a player is successful with the penalty, but the Penalty Taking attribute itself governs whether or not a penalty is likely to be scored or missed.

Tackling

How successful the player is at winning tackles and not conceding fouls from such situations. Players with a high Tackling rating consistently win the ball cleanly and are more capable defensive players.

Technique

A player with high Technique is more likely to pull off a tricky pass or a cross-field ball with greater ease than someone less technically able, or to use their preferred foot in situations where their weaker one would appear to be easier. This in turn affects technical attributes – poorer Technique will let a player down.

Mental Attributes

Aggression

This reflects a player’s attitude in terms of playing mentality, but is not necessarily a dirtiness indicator. A more aggressive player looks to involve himself in every incident, press more often, tackle harder, foul more often, and engage in the ‘darker arts’ of football such as dissent towards officials and foul play.

Anticipation

How well a player can predict and react to an event. If a player has a high attribute here, they can read the game well and react to situations more quickly than others. It also has a significant effect on a player’s awareness and whether they identify space for themselves to play in, as well as whether they react to signs of danger created by the opponent.

Bravery

This attribute determines how committed and indeed, brave, a player is. Braver players risk injury more in situations a more cautious player may shy away from. They compete more often in the air, contest more 50/50 or low-percentage challenges, both on the ground and in the air, and look to put their body on the line with blocks and last-ditch challenges.

Composure

Composure reflects the player’s steadiness of mind and ability, particularly with the ball.  When faced with a big goalscoring chance, or heavy pressure defensively, a player with high Composure is able to keep their head and more often than not get the opportunity to make a good decision that is beneficial to the team. In general play, they appear to have more time on the ball, make smarter and more successful decisions with it, and are generally more aware of their surroundings in all phases of play.

Concentration

This reflects a player’s mental focus and attention to detail on an event-by-event basis. A high rating here means that the player is more consistent on a move-by-move basis during a match. They also react better under pressure, position themselves correctly in all phases of play, and make better judgment calls in tight situations, while players with lower concentration struggle more in these areas.

Decisions

The ability of a player to make a correct choice the majority of the time. This attribute is important in every position, and works with Composure to decide how likely a player is to feel under pressure at any given moment, and to make the best choice accordingly.

Determination

A commitment to succeed both on and off the pitch. A determined player gives everything in order to win. This ties in with Bravery – players with a high number in one of these attributes may also be high in the other as the traits necessary are similar.

Flair

A natural talent for the creative and occasional unpredictability. Flair governs whether or not a player is likely to choose to dribble, to take on long-range shooting opportunities or spectacular overhead kick efforts, or generally to take risks with the ball.

Leadership

Leadership is the player’s ability to affect other players. Players with high Leadership are influential on the pitch and team-mates perform better when playing with them.

Off the Ball

A player’s movement without the ball. Similar to Anticipation, this is how well players, particularly attacking ones, can assess a situation and then move off the ball, making themselves available to perform another action after making a pass themselves, or to move into a position to receive the ball from a team-mate.

Positioning

This attribute reflects the ability of a player to read a situation and manoeuvre themselves into the best possible location to deal with the unfolding events in defensive situations. It is not used in attacking situations; rather, it is used to determine how well a player identifies who to mark, when and how and where to mark them, and whether or not they’re in the best position within their current tactical setup.

Teamwork

How well the player follows tactical instructions and works for and alongside their team-mates. A team full of players with a high rating here works better as a unit. Players with lower ratings slack off and do not ‘buy in’ to the team ethos, becoming more individual, and not providing adequate support for their team-mates. It is also used to help decide whether or not a player opts to use one of his Player Traits ahead of a tactical instruction.

Vision

This refers to a player’s ability to see a potential opportunity – but not necessarily their ability to exploit it. A player might be able to see something to take advantage of but they also require the technical proficiency to pull it off; this attribute governs how likely they are to visualise something developing or, in the case of a higher rating here, spot something that another player might not.

Work Rate

This reflects the player’s mental drive to work to his full capacities. A high rating ensures a player wants to work their socks off from start to finish, but needs the necessary physical attributes to actually be able to pull it off. It does not merely represent a willingness to run – something that would be inappropriate in many positions – but rather the urgency with which a player gets to where they’re supposed to be in all situations.

Physical Attributes

Acceleration

Acceleration is how quickly a player can reach top speed (pace) from a standing start. It therefore ties in very closely with the Pace attribute.

Agility

Agility reflects how well a player can start, stop, and move in different directions at varying levels of speed (pace). It ties in with the Pace, Acceleration and Balance attributes as they work together in the match engine, especially when a player is Dribbling.

Balance

Balance simply reflects how well a player can keep their balance in situations both with and without the ball. With the ball, it refers to how balanced they are when running and evading opponents; without it, it refers to balance when facing a player running at them, or stability when turning/jumping.

Jumping Reach 

Jumping Reach reflects how good a player is at reaching the ball in the air. It indicates the highest point an outfield player can reach with their head. It is not necessarily reflective of how tall a player is, but when considering jumping ability, it makes sense to consider the player’s height. For example, a player of 200+cm still possesses a high reach even if a poor jumper, and a player who measures in at 170cm struggles to compete at the same height due to the 30cm difference in height between the two.

Natural Fitness

A player’s natural fitness influences how well they stay fit when injured or not training. This helps to determine how quickly players recover from injury, how well they retain their physical attributes as they go past their peak, and how fast they recover between matches.

Pace     

Pace is a player’s top speed. Whereas Acceleration reflects how quickly a player can attain their top speed, Pace is that top speed and, together with Stamina and Natural Fitness, controls how long they are able to maintain it, both in short bursts and over the course of a match. A player is naturally a shade quicker without the ball than with it.

Stamina

Stamina is a player’s ability to endure high-level physical activity for a long period of time. With the demands placed on a player over a full season, players with high attribute ratings for Stamina are able to perform at their top levels for longer. A player with less Stamina not only tires more quickly, but the quality of execution in all phases of play decreases the more tired they become. It also ties in directly with Natural Fitness.

Strength

A player’s Strength is the ability to exert his physical force on an opponent to gain an advantage.

Goalkeeping Attributes

Aerial Reach

This is the goalkeeper’s physical ability in aerial situations. Taller goalkeepers typically have a higher rating here as they are naturally pre-disposed to being able to reach areas shorter goalkeepers cannot, but there are exceptions. This attribute works in connection with several other goalkeeping attributes in order to determine proficiency in dealing with the numerous aerial situations they encounter during a match.

Command of Area

This affects how well the goalkeeper takes charge of the penalty area and works with his defensive line. A goalkeeper who commands the entire box (i.e. has a high rating) is instinctive and looks to take charge of situations, especially coming for crosses (therefore working in tandem with Aerial Reach) or coming out for interceptions. Do note, however, that a high rating only determines whether or not they try, not that they succeed.

Communication

How well a goalkeeper communicates with the defensive line and organises the defensive side of the team. A higher rating is reflected in a defender’s comfort in possession near their own goal and whether or not they correctly leave the ball for the goalkeeper rather than trying to play it themselves.

Eccentricity

This attribute represents the likelihood of the goalkeeper doing the unexpected and typically acting completely unlike a goalkeeper – things like dribbling out of his area, coming for the ball outside of the area, and generally being more involved in outfield play when losing will be commonplace if the Eccentricity attribute is high.

Handling

How securely the goalkeeper holds onto the ball when making a save or coming for a loose ball. Better Handling is beneficial in unfavourable weather conditions, but in general a goalkeeper who doesn’t give up rebounds is useful.

Kicking

The capability of a goalkeeper to kick the ball – this defines the distance and accuracy with which they can kick from hand or from dead-ball restarts. Passing governs the goalkeeper’s ability to move the ball in open play.

One on Ones

The ability of the goalkeeper to do well when faced with an opponent in a one on one situation. Higher attributes see goalkeepers make better judgments of the opponent’s speed and likely decision and result in them being more likely to make a successful decision.

Reflexes

This reflects how good the goalkeeper is at reacting to unpredictable events. If they have a high Reflexes rating, they have a quicker reaction time to make more difficult saves.

Rushing Out (Tendency)

How frequently the goalkeeper comes off the line to react to through balls and to narrow the angle for various shooting opportunities. Goalkeepers also benefit from having high Pace and Acceleration attributes in combination with Rushing Out.

Punching (Tendency)

This determines whether a goalkeeper catches the ball when possible, or whether they prefer to punch it clear. A higher rating reflects a tendency to punch most things clear, even when it may be possible to hold onto the ball.

Throwing

Throwing governs how likely a goalkeeper is to start moves, often counter-attacks, with quick throws from the ball in their hands.

Some technical attributes, like First Touch and Passing, are also applicable to goalkeepers.

13 minutes ago, Lesnarking said:

can anyone explain what happens if this attributes is high or low

Quote

An Introduction to Attributes

It is vital to understand the importance of player attributes in Football Manager™ and how they affect various parts of the game and, in particular, the match engine. Attributes are divided into three main areas –  Physical, Mental, and Technical – with Goalkeepers having their own Technical ratings. The attributes, how they react in certain situations, in combination with others as well as on a stand-alone basis, are detailed below, but it’s important first of all to outline how attributes work.

Each player is rated on a scale of 1-20, 1 being absolutely terrible, and 20 being elite. Some attributes are defined as ‘Absolute’, and some as ‘Relative’. Absolute attributes are those that are locked to an individual and can’t be trained quite as easily, such as Determination and Work Rate. These are generally innate attributes specific to individuals and typically only develop as the player matures off the field. Relative attributes are those that can be compared to other players in the football world and can be improved through training and player development. Physical and Technical skill sets are the main areas in which you’ll find relative attributes.

For players that aren’t at your club and who haven’t been comprehensively scouted, attributes appear as a range to indicate a rough idea of their ability in that area. Continued scouting reduces the range until the attribute is clearly identified.

How are attributes and player ability linked?

The distribution of attributes across a player’s profile effectively determines his Current Ability. A player with 20 in all positive areas would be as close to the maximum ability score as possible; it wouldn’t be 100% certain because the number of positions he can play, as well as his competence with either foot, can affect the final number.

Some attributes have a higher ‘weighting’ towards a player’s overall ability as they are fundamentally important to succeeding in any position. The majority of Physical attributes, as well as Anticipation, Decisions and Positioning are the most heavily rated for any position, while each position carries appropriate weightings for attributes crucial to performing to a high standard in that area of the pitch. The ‘Highlight Key Attributes’ button on a player’s profile offers an insight into what each of these attributes are per position.

How does a one-number difference in an attribute make a difference in the match engine?

The easiest way to answer this question is to state that a more consistent and high-quality outcome is produced with every increase up the attribute scale. A pass is more likely to find its target, a shot is more likely be on target, a tackle more often wins the ball, etc. The combination and distribution of attributes, combined with the player’s position, also directly correlate with their ability as described above. Players with higher attributes, typically, also have a higher ability.

It applies to attributes several numbers apart as well as a single digit in difference, 11 to 12 for example. The differences are more easily noticeable when the difference is increased, but there are subtler tells when it’s reduced. Consider two identical players, but with their Decisions attributes a single digit apart. The player with the higher rating is more likely to make a better choice with every decision he makes.

It’s a very basic example that doesn’t include the nuance of how game situations and other attributes affect it, but that isolated marginal gain is important over the course of ninety minutes. It could be the difference between a pass that successfully unlocks a defence that another player might not have chosen. The small margins, the slight advantages, add up to a much bigger advantage when applied across the entire team, and that’s how the attribute model works.

How do attributes combine with each other and with external factors on a game-by-game basis?

Every player has almost 40 visible playing attributes. They often work in conjunction with each other, either with another single attribute, or in combination with many, and the total number of combinations of attributes working in a synchronised fashion is stupendous. It would be impossible to list every single possible combination, but it’s more important to understand the environment the players operate in, and how the decision-making process works.

Take one small example. A winger who has a high attribute value for crossing, on average, delivers consistently dangerous crosses into attacking positions in perfect circumstances, i.e. with the ball fully under control and without significant pressure around him. But what happens if you then start to add in other factors? Introduce a defender closing him down, introduce a defender in the penalty area waiting to clear it, introduce a poor playing surface due to unfavourable weather. Everything changes.

If that player has high attributes in other areas, like pace and acceleration, dribbling and technique, for example, he has more ways to succeed. Players make thousands of mental calculations in every match based around the best option available to them at any given moment, and those are based off their attributes and their all-round competency. They aren’t always right in their decision (the Decisions attribute itself plays a big role here), nor is the right decision always the successful one.

Try to think of attribute combinations ‘creating’ templates of players: athletic players, intelligent players, creative players, leaders etc. Much of this can be deciphered by using the ‘Highlight Key Attributes for Role’ option on the player’s profile. This is not necessarily an exhaustive list – the hint is in the word ‘Key’ – but at the same time, it should be simple to understand which attributes do not work well together, or at all, by a combination of common sense and a process of elimination. Strength, for example, has nothing to do with Crossing. Positioning, as a purely defensive attribute, does not work with Finishing. Vision and Tackling are not associated as Vision refers to the opportunities a player can see opening up when in possession.

All of these attributes are explained in more detail in this section; using the descriptions to build a foundation of knowledge of how they work will leave you better informed as to how they might interact with each other.

It's all in there in plain text.

[Lesnarking]

2 minutes ago, XaW said:

What is it that you don't understand. Everything you asked in the post is written there.

It's all in there in plain text.

I couldn't understand because my english is bad

[Lesnarking]

3 minutes ago, santy001 said:

As @XaW mentions, the manual is the best place to start. 

In general though its worth pointing out that the context of attributes are purely on the basis of professional footballers. Therefore, a rating of 1 in an attribute is still far superior to the average person on the street and the gap between 1 and 20 is less than you might otherwise think.

For physical attributes like strength and pace these aren't universal either. So Usain Bolt at his 100m prime wouldn't necessarily be a 20 pace player if he did transition to football. Not because he isn't fast enough to be, but because he may have lacked the footballing intelligence to employ it correctly in a game. 

Overall a "higher" quality player (which really is something you have to decide on your own metrics for the position, the role and so on) the greater their chance of succeeding at what you want them to do. Higher quality players are more likely to be capable of a difficult role, or a role that gets greater pressure on it from opposition teams. 

thanks

[santy001]

I don't know if you're new to FM overall, or if you're just new to the forums but the best advice I can give @Lesnarking is that playing the game really is the best way to figure it out. 

Sometimes you just need to play the game and look at two or three players you have for one position and see who does best. Despite the huge advantages I get as a researcher in terms of information about how attributes work, I will still stumble across players who take me by surprise. 

[XaW]

5 minutes ago, Lesnarking said:

I couldn't understand because my english is bad

Try to put it through a translator into your language then. That's the best advise I can give.

[Lesnarking]

8 minutes ago, XaW said:

Try to put it through a translator into your language then. That's the best advise I can give.

Thanks

[Lesnarking]

10 minutes ago, santy001 said:

I don't know if you're new to FM overall, or if you're just new to the forums but the best advice I can give @Lesnarking is that playing the game really is the best way to figure it out. 

Sometimes you just need to play the game and look at two or three players you have for one position and see who does best. Despite the huge advantages I get as a researcher in terms of information about how attributes work, I will still stumble across players who take me by surprise. 

Thanks.

[Sloak]

After putting a couple thousand hours in in-game and probably a couple hundred more on the forums I think I have a decent grasp on the attributes, but I think there’s definitely a valid complaint with lack of clarity. Referencing the game’s text and the forums really shouldn’t be necessary to figure out what  your players do well, and even if you do go to the forums you aren’t given everything.
 

Most of the people on the forums have either been playing for a long time, or have consumed enough content on the game via YouTube and the forums themself to have forgotten what it’s like to be a new player. For someone brand new to the game, being faced with 25+ attributes that are explained minimally and often seem contradicting (decisions and concentration seem almost the same from description) is going to be a lot to process and their best resource for clarity is the forums, where they suddenly learn strength is used in heading and technique causes players to use their dominant foot more. But even then, the forums descriptions are still incomplete. 
 

For instance, neither the forums guide nor the game mention that balance is used in determining how well a player can do things at pace (cross, shoot, pass). Vision seems like it would only really apply to passing, but nowhere in the forum’s description is passing mentioned. In fact, it rubs shoulders with anticipation in “visualizing something developing”, but anticipation’s description makes it appear it’s linked far more to reactions (react is used 3 times) than prediction (used 1 time). Anticipation seems to be as much about predicting the game as it is awareness and offensive movement, and far less important than reactions, which you would expect from concentration given its description. There’s more, concentration references making tight judgement calls, but composure would make more sense for that application, etc.

 

The point is that players lack access to information in game, and when they dig into a forum to find it, the official guide is ambiguous and somewhat contradicting, leading to the misunderstandings we see in the community that are continually propagated as most players informing new players were misinformed themselves. I understand that SI don’t want to just give away what every attribute does, but there’s gotta be a better way to convey attributes so the mods and the community don’t keep having to answer questions like these.

[XaW]

@Sloak - I agree the lack of clarity is something that should be addressed, but I'm also not sure how it can be done in a way that is accessible for everyone without making it tedious or too complicated or giving away too much under the hood. I mean, hovering over most of the things in the game will provide a text explaining them.

That one is attributes, and for training the same goes for more "concepts":

If you have any ideas or suggestions to how it could be improved, feel free to add it in the suggestions section on this forum.

[Lesnarking]

2 minutes ago, XaW said:

@Sloak - I agree the lack of clarity is something that should be addressed, but I'm also not sure how it can be done in a way that is accessible for everyone without making it tedious or too complicated or giving away too much under the hood. I mean, hovering over most of the things in the game will provide a text explaining them.

That one is attributes, and for training the same goes for more "concepts":

If you have any ideas or suggestions to how it could be improved, feel free to add it in the suggestions section on this forum.

where can i look at this place here?

[Sloak]

On 14/08/2021 at 14:07, XaW said:

@Sloak - I agree the lack of clarity is something that should be addressed, but I'm also not sure how it can be done in a way that is accessible for everyone without making it tedious or too complicated or giving away too much under the hood. I mean, hovering over most of the things in the game will provide a text explaining them.

That one is attributes, and for training the same goes for more "concepts":

If you have any ideas or suggestions to how it could be improved, feel free to add it in the suggestions section on this forum.

I’m glad we can agree lack of clarity is a problem, but we don’t agree that there’s not superior alternatives. The description pop up in game could easily be improved by, for instance, mentioning that crossing is used in indirect free kicks, or that the players ability to cross at speed depends on balance. Neither of which are mentioned anywhere in game. Training does give a solid indication of what stats work together, but as we all know a players ability to dribble past an opponent relies on Acceleration, Agility, Flair, and more. (Side note, I don’t understand why you can’t train tackling or concentration, but you can train things like composure or vision which seem much less teachable on the training pitch).

However, I think having the descriptions be small in game is probably a better idea, with a more comprehensive resource officially released from SI. The official resource could replace the current one on the forums, taking the place of a more in depth description of the attributes.

Just spitballing some ideas, but maybe describe some events that commonly occur in a match of football. Describe what attributes a winger might use as he attempts to dribble his man and send in a cross. Put me in the digital mind of my midfielders as they battle for possession or my attackers as they look for space to receive the ball.

A small visual like the ones we got for roles this year (that are entirely useless as knowledgeable players already understand what a TQ does, and new players are completely misled by a pressing forward that looks the exact same on A, S, and D duties, but I digress) could easily show a player putting his dribbling to use, or tangibly demonstrate what anticipation does on the pitch. 
 

Maybe you give players a peak into what researchers reference when looking at a player. If I know that Joe Schmoe the SI researcher is instructed to treat vision more like the ability to always find a pass vs the ability to find top end passes, it would bring some context to our players in game. If I know how a researcher goes about determining a strikers ability to score goals (like what type of player they’d give high finishing but low anticipation and composure, or vice versa) I can quantify my own striker. I know we have access to some of this information, Jumping reach has been covered on here from memory and I’m sure we’ve gotten a look at others, but having this information somewhere other than a thread buried under years of other threads might be beneficial.

I don’t need to know what attribute is most impactful, or how everything interacts, but more immersion in how the attributes actually create a player couldn’t hurt.

Even if SI feels something like this would be too much to give away, they could at least put out an official version of what we have here, just with less ambiguous and overlapping descriptions. Players are commonly given conflicting information when comparing the games text and the communities resource, or they’re not given the information at all, and while that’s fine for tactics or recruitment, the games fundamental rules really shouldn’t be hard to pin down. SI is literally 1 blog post away from easily clearing up all the misconceptions and lack of information. 
 

I know the suggestion forum has a purpose, but as far as I’ve seen public opinion seems much more impactful on the companies than the ol suggestions box, so I figured I’d air my grievances here. Reading it back it seems a little aggressive, but i really don’t think my ideas are unreasonable, and would bring a lot of benefits to the community with a truly minimal effort on SI’s part.

[enigmatic]

6 hours ago, Sloak said:

I’m glad we can agree lack of clarity is a problem, but we don’t agree that there’s not superior alternatives. The description pop up in game could easily be improved by, for instance, mentioning that crossing is used in indirect free kicks, or that the players ability to cross at speed depends on balance. Neither of which are mentioned anywhere in game. Training does give a solid indication of what stats work together, but as we all know a players ability to dribble past an opponent relies on Acceleration, Agility, Flair, and more. (Side note, I don’t understand why you can’t train tackling or concentration, but you can train things like composure or vision which seem much less teachable on the training pitch).

However, I think having the descriptions be small in game is probably a better idea, with a more comprehensive resource officially released from SI. The official resource could replace the current one on the forums, taking the place of a more in depth description of the attributes.

Just spitballing some ideas, but maybe describe some events that commonly occur in a match of football. Describe what attributes a winger might use as he attempts to dribble his man and send in a cross. Put me in the digital mind of my midfielders as they battle for possession or my attackers as they look for space to receive the ball.

A small visual like the ones we got for roles this year (that are entirely useless as knowledgeable players already understand what a TQ does, and new players are completely misled by a pressing forward that looks the exact same on A, S, and D duties, but I digress) could easily show a player putting his dribbling to use, or tangibly demonstrate what anticipation does on the pitch. 
 

Maybe you give players a peak into what researchers reference when looking at a player. If I know that Joe Schmoe the SI researcher is instructed to treat vision more like the ability to always find a pass vs the ability to find top end passes, it would bring some context to our players in game. I

I don’t need to know what attribute is most impactful, or how everything interacts, but more immersion in how the attributes actually create a player couldn’t hurt.

Even if SI feels something like this would be too much to give away, they could at least put out an official version of what we have here, just with less ambiguous and overlapping descriptions. Players are commonly given conflicting information when comparing the games text and the communities resource, or they’re not given the information at all, and while that’s fine for tactics or recruitment, the games fundamental rules really shouldn’t be hard to pin down. SI is literally 1 blog post away from easily clearing up all the misconceptions and lack of information. 
 

I know the suggestion forum has a purpose, but as far as I’ve seen public opinion seems much more impactful on the companies than the ol suggestions box, so I figured I’d air my grievances here. Reading it back it seems a little aggressive, but i really don’t think my ideas are unreasonable, and would bring a 

Yeah, this is the sort of level of detail that's missing. It's been suggested in the past that knowing too much will lead to exploity behaviour but I think the opposite is true. People have no idea why their playmaker isn't picking the passes they want, but all they can find out is that if they download a formation created by Knap with a "set piece bug" and use a hacky trick to sign 5* players they can stop worrying about attributes and start winning. Knowing what the attributes do in more detail and giving instructions or trading players accordingly is playing the game properly.

IRL a coach doesn't have to worry about whether a player's long shots ability affects their free kick shots in a small or large way, they just see who executes them better in training (and take a lot longer to notice who has mental difficulties with them in match situations)

 

 

Other than that, I'd settle for info not being contradictory (SI saying on here that "jumping reach" refers purely to keepers' ability to win headers and not used at all in actual goalkeeping calculations, and yet it being CA-weighted for keepers and an in game tip [once?] suggesting it was important for them)

[V3ntricity]

No one really knows how attributes work. But I know a secret alot of people do not know about (i´m pretty sure an official person said this); the stats are basically 1-10. So it´s something like 19-20 = 10, 17-18 = 9, etc.  So the difference between 16 and 17 is bigger than 15 and 16. 

Edited August 17, 2021 by V3ntricity

[HUNT3R]

36 minutes ago, V3ntricity said:

No one really knows how attributes work. But I know a secret alot of people do not know about (i´m pretty sure an official person said this); the stats are basically 1-10. So it´s something like 19-20 = 10, 17-18 = 9, etc.  So the difference between 16 and 17 is bigger than 15 and 16. 

No official person would have said this, because it's wrong.

[enigmatic]

On 17/08/2021 at 17:51, HUNT3R said:

No official person would have said this, because it's wrong.

Indeed it's the precise opposite, the stats are from 1.0 to 20.0, and the stuff after the decimal point, which you can see on the player development tab, counts

 

(Though one side effect is that the difference between 15 and 16 can be the difference between 15.4 and 15.6 I.e not much. But it can also be the difference between 14.6 and 16.4...)

[MrPompey]

On 17/08/2021 at 17:14, V3ntricity said:

No one really knows how attributes work. But I know a secret alot of people do not know about (i´m pretty sure an official person said this); the stats are basically 1-10. So it´s something like 19-20 = 10, 17-18 = 9, etc.  So the difference between 16 and 17 is bigger than 15 and 16. 

Of course your theory is wrong and your statement is wrong

[Sloak]

5 hours ago, MrPompey said:

Of course your theory is wrong and your statement is wrong

Yikes. A wee agressive haha.

[MrPompey]

19 hours ago, Sloak said:

Yikes. A wee agressive haha.

Its not aggressive in anyway so please dont stir trouble when there is no need to. 

My post is factual, and Im not the only one to say the same. The poster is also trying to suggest its been confirmed by an official statement without fact. If you make things up it doesnt mean they are right

[GreenTriangle]

On 17/08/2021 at 05:22, Sloak said:

 Describe what attributes a winger might use as he attempts to dribble his man and send in a cross. Put me in the digital mind of my midfielders as they battle for possession or my attackers as they look for space to receive the ball.

And why do you think you can't play FM if you don't know exactly what those attributes are?

[V3ntricity]

my post is more a theory based on what other have written and my own understanding of the game engine (i am in fact a professional developer in C#, C++ like the game is written in). I could have stated it differently. I know attributes go from 1.0 o 20. But in terms of actual appliance, there's hardly any difference from an a player with dribbling 13 or 14. But there is proportionally more between 14 and 15 (the cutoff can be different than this). Something like that, more or less, but i'm pretty sur there's a range. 

Furthermore there's alot of strance choices, like an ability cap, so that means low rated teams can't have any players that are as good as the top players in a higher rated club (but they can have high potential players). So the game operates with alot of set caps, which is unfortunate if you want to have a truly dynamic game.

[santy001]

1 hour ago, V3ntricity said:

Furthermore there's alot of strance choices, like an ability cap, so that means low rated teams can't have any players that are as good as the top players in a higher rated club (but they can have high potential players). So the game operates with alot of set caps, which is unfortunate if you want to have a truly dynamic game.

I'd like you to explain this further. Because I will take the time to explain things in more detail, but I need to better understand what you're referring to so I can make sure its more targeted and relevant.

[santy001]

Attributes are on a scale of 1-20 in terms of professional footballers. They aren't universal scales. 

This means a few things:

- The gap between 1 and 20 is much smaller than you will immediately think it is when viewing attributes.

- The attributes being in a footballing context means it doesn't matter how fast you run 100m or how many kg's you can bench press. If you can't use that speed or strength in the context of football you will score poorly in these attributes.

- While you can never tell the difference between a passing of 12 and 13, or even 12 and 15 one or two attributes scoring low or high can make the world of difference in ways you may not typically notice. 

- Trying a player out in your team is always the best way to judge a player, because no matter how much you know about attributes you'll never be able to determine if someone will or won't succeed for you in your intended role.

[Daveincid]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb V3ntricity:

Furthermore there's alot of strance choices, like an ability cap, so that means low rated teams can't have any players that are as good as the top players in a higher rated club (but they can have high potential players). So the game operates with alot of set caps, which is unfortunate if you want to have a truly dynamic game.

I personally never experienced this. That there are almost none top-players(high CA) at small Clubs ist just logical. if a smaller Club has a high PA-Player he will develop his CA over time, so he will be soon the best player at the Club. As a result, it's almost certain that his reputation goes up and then he usually wants to move to a bigger Club. It's pretty dynamic to be honest. 

[GreenTriangle]

Do you really think other people are doing exactly what you do? It's your right to do it, but you're an isolated case. The others do not practice such habits. On the other hand, it is very commendable you want to improve your experience (I mean the FM player experience) but if you had played a little longer you would have understood that various attributes act dynamically. Player X will react differently depending on various parameters without any of his attributes changing. For example, the tactical configuration used can greatly influence a player's actions. Even the tactical configuration used by the opponent can have an influence. A player's traits and personality can also have a decisive influence. These are just some of the elements that can generate different reactions even when attributes remain completely unchanged. It's one of the things that an FM player learns very quickly. What, is it too complicated? Not nearly. It's easier than in the case of other very popular RPG games. In addition, FM offers countless tools that can help any player, even a less experienced player.

Edited August 28, 2021 by GreenTriangle

[XaW]

On 21/08/2021 at 08:07, V3ntricity said:

Furthermore there's alot of strance choices, like an ability cap, so that means low rated teams can't have any players that are as good as the top players in a higher rated club (but they can have high potential players). So the game operates with alot of set caps, which is unfortunate if you want to have a truly dynamic game.

I have no idea where you got this from. Please give some sort of source.

For what it's worth, I had an amazing talent come through my youth academy as Folkestone in the Vanarama South, and later on he became a great PL player, but not for me, because another team poached him since he was on a youth contract. I have no idea what is CA/PA has been at any point, since I don't use the IGE or any other tools.

[xavinwonderland]

I have a tip for you. On FM21 you can pretty much ignore any non physical attribute as they are close to useless except for a few ones like dribbling and passing but they should be fairly straightforward to understand. 

So just focus on acceleration / pace /jumping reach/ strength / agility / balance / dribbling / passing and you will do very good. 

If you want to know more you can find a post on reddit of someone who won the EPL with a full squad of 0 CA guys (it would mean 0 stars player, even the worse player you can find in the game is not that bad). 

He just edited the stats of the players to give them 20 in the very few important ones and 1 in everything else proving that most of the stuff don't matter at all. 

He even won a penalty shootout against Liverpool with a trash keeper and a full team of players with 1 in penalty and 1 in composure 😂

[GreenTriangle]

In fact, that guy was joking. Looks like you're one of the few who took him seriously. 

[xavinwonderland]

Il y a 5 heures, GreenTriangle a dit :

In fact, that guy was joking. Looks like you're one of the few who took him seriously. 

I have not found anything pointing out that it was a joke anywhere so what would be your source for saying so? 

The only thing that could be critisized would be the methodology and a more accurate protocol could certainly be established. However it doesn't change the fact that under Fm21 the physical attributes have a much greater impact than anything else and all the tests done by various sources all confirm that. 

So if you have a different source please feel free to share it. 

[GreenTriangle]

Source number 1: I played (and still play) FM21
Source number 2: I spent several hundred hours doing all kinds of experiments. What that guy says is hilarious, but it's his right to joke. That doesn't mean you have to believe him. I highly recommend you to play this game. You'll have the opportunity to see how far from reality what he says is.

[santy001]

There's little merit in some obscure citing of a reddit post as holding any validity. You can link to it or replicate it if you wish and show us the results but I already know where the criticisms lie based on your description.

15 hours ago, xavinwonderland said:

If you want to know more you can find a post on reddit of someone who won the EPL with a full squad of 0 CA guys (it would mean 0 stars player, even the worse player you can find in the game is not that bad). 

He just edited the stats of the players to give them 20 in the very few important ones and 1 in everything else proving that most of the stuff don't matter at all. 

If you set players CA's to zero, it doesn't work. I can't recall if it either randomises it or gets the game to determine the value based on something else. Generally speaking, once you start using 0 ratings in FM for anything attribute related, it gets a bit weird.

Secondly, unless some freezing mechanic has been used which I recall in game editors of many moons ago having players would change over the course of a season. 

Thirdly, giving a forward all 20's for his physical attributes, and then 20's for the "important" ones like Finishing, First Touch, Technique, Anticipation, Composure, Off the Ball I would expect you're already in the 140 CA mark. Good tactics and 140 CA players can easily win the league. Throw a few more attributes in like Long Shots, Work Rate, Bravery and a strong weak foot rating. You're probably already within sight of 180CA. So the experiment could well be providing this team with by far and away the strongest team in game in terms of raw CA. If a freezing mechanic is being used and depending upon the opinions of the "test" maker, the players they're putting in might well be in excess of 200CA. The highest CA I've been able to see that I could rate a player as (if I maxed everything to 20) was 312. 

It doesn't then devalue the impact of other attributes. What it demonstrates instead is that by having a collection of players who are so insanely specialised players who are more well rounded will struggle to compete. Which to be honest, is an entirely expected outcome. If you line up a 100m sprinter against a decathlete, in the 100m sprint, then the sprinter should win. They're specialised. 

Ultimately it comes back to the fact that if you provide unrealistic inputs, you will get unrealistic outcomes and conclusions. 

[XaW]

4 hours ago, xavinwonderland said:

I have not found anything pointing out that it was a joke anywhere so what would be your source for saying so? 

The only thing that could be critisized would be the methodology and a more accurate protocol could certainly be established. However it doesn't change the fact that under Fm21 the physical attributes have a much greater impact than anything else and all the tests done by various sources all confirm that. 

So if you have a different source please feel free to share it. 

For what it's worth, that test is flawed. None of those players can have CA1. I remember someone did a check of that and all of the players ended with a higher CA than 1...

Also this claim for the post:

Quote

As far as what I can reasonably guess, the game first decides the result, then make up a story to fulfill that result.

This has been clearly stated by SI is untrue. The game "plays out" behind the scenes when you see that "players are warming up". That is done to let the game know when it's supposed to show a highlight. Whenever any manager do any change (AI or human doesn't matter), the game is "replayed from that point" to accommodate for the changes made.

As a final thought, this experiment is basically flawed, since what they did was create a tactic that defends, and wants to create set pieces only. So all goals pretty much comes from all high crosses to players who are double the height of everyone else as far as I can tell using a set piece exploit. For me, this is the prime example of poor input = poor output. The only thing I can pull from this is that the game could be better at handling extremes. That said, if the user who did this thinks it flawed, then I suggest they report it in the bugs section and upload the save to let SI take a look.

Edit: Aww, @santy001, you stole all my points here!  

Edited August 29, 2021 by XaW

[xavinwonderland]

Il y a 10 heures, GreenTriangle a dit :

I didn't copy the link as I was afraid it could break some forum rules but here it is:

 

I'm not claiming that this is  not flawless but it clearly show that the game can't handle some extreme scenario at the very least and that physical attributes are disproportionately effective (that was also confirmed by all the tests done by zeland for instance). 

No matter how you want to put it, it is way way more important for a striker to be strong and fast than to have a high finishing or composure. 

 

[Daveincid]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb xavinwonderland:

 

 It sounds like creating "Superhumans". Everyone 212cm tall and 106kg. Of course they will have a huge benefit against "humans". IMO the game actually does a good Job. I bet that a team full of "superhumans" would win the league too, no matter if they are able to juggling the ball only 3 times instead of 10'000...
Claiming that a game is unrealistic while creating the most unrealistic scenario is really funny

 

[santy001]

So reading that through, based on how its been explained the person doing the test actually knows incredibly little about the game and its workings. This has resulted in all kinds of meaningless conjecture in there that aren't true.

At a height of 212cm most of those players will win aerial battles without even needing to jump. The majority of players are already prevented from competing with these players. The formation is non-sensical and only works because of the extreme pace given to that team. It probably results in the AI opposition pushing up far too much and being viciously caught out by counters. You can play with "traps" in your tactics it's one of my favoured things to try and do with a 3 at the back system creating false openings down the flanks. That tactic just dials it up to 11 though and any turnover of possession in midfield, or long ball out from the back after a failed attack would be devastating.

The odds are however that if you take any team in the game and change all their players to 20/20 for acceleration & pace you will probably win the league. There's a simple reason for this. FM doesn't overvalue speed but if you're doing everything in your play at a faster level it will inherently expose and create openings that otherwise do not appear without it. Very few 20/20 players for these two attributes emerge in a save game. You can probably go decades without one existing. The only player in recent memory who has 20's for both is Mbappe. The gap between individual attributes is small, but as @Daveincid likens them to these are effectively superhuman players. 

[herne79]

Say it with me kids - the hidden CA value is a completely meaningless number and doesn't tell us how "good" a player is.

[Platinum]

On 28/08/2021 at 15:17, XaW said:

I have no idea where you got this from. Please give some sort of source.

For what it's worth, I had an amazing talent come through my youth academy as Folkestone in the Vanarama South, and later on he became a great PL player, but not for me, because another team poached him since he was on a youth contract. I have no idea what is CA/PA has been at any point, since I don't use the IGE or any other tools.

Just to add to this I currently manage Oxford City in the Vanarama South (the lowest English league in the game) and I have had a talent come through my academy who definitely has premier league potential and is already the best player in my team at 16. The only thing he lacks is consistency

Edited August 29, 2021 by Platinum

[Piperita]

8 hours ago, herne79 said:

Say it with me kids - the hidden CA value is a completely meaningless number and doesn't tell us how "good" a player is.

Yeah. Spread and ind. numbers > combined CA. Also, footedness and positions can really inflate the numbers without making a player that much better. Which is why  I love some roles as they can create absolute gods without the players demanding absurd contracts as their CA is still average at best and their roles are not flashy enough to get in focus. 

On the flipside, it makes some performance clauses on transfers rather meaningless. However well-balanced a player and however well he performs, he gets transfer-listed or replaced the next window because there are better-rated ones on the market. Had a 126 CA striker who almost single-handedly promoted my team twice. 37 goals in 31 games and 21 in 18. Got an offer from Leverkusen I had to accept. 11 goals in 14 and without showing any distress he was transfer-listed next summer. Played another season due to injuries and no interest. 23 in 31. Then sold for half his value. Boy was I glad how he barely made his bonuses, despite his form saying he should have had a few more seasons to achieve them.