*Official* Football Manager 2022 Feedback Thread

[Metal]

15 hours ago, Sunstrikuuu said:

Yes, actually, because for me it's not sports scientists, it's coaches.  I literally cannot get enough coaches to have one per category.  This has happened to me in three saves now - once in my Racing CFF save, where the board just stopped agreeing to stuff despite taking them from the 5th tier to the Champions League, and twice in Arsenal saves, the second of which I started just to see if this would happen again.

Edit:

This isn't, like, an issue of the board just being unreasonable, and maybe there's some give-and-take you can do to get your message across.  I'm being told that "we have to live within our means" when I propose hiring a tenth staff member at £2,500 per week.  The club has £147m in the bank and £336kpw spare wage budget, and the board will let me hire more scouts, physios, analysts or sports scientists, or increase the wages I can offer to any of those folks, and the board will pay off any termination fee I ask.  They'll even give me more coaches for the U23 and U18 teams, which at Arsenal is kind of funny, because the U23s and senior team share facilities and staff; there's no clear distinction between a U23 coach and a first-team coach.

So I suppose it's possible that I have an owner who believes the world will end if he gives me a tenth first-team coach to cover ten coaching categories.  But it's much more likely that it's one of those silly little bugs that's clearly a bug.

So because you can't get an extra coach at two clubs, you can't play the game its unplayable and broken. Sorry but I have to laugh

Like I said before every board is different, I have no trouble getting more coaches allocated I get up to a 11 in my save so it's not a bug just how those two boards are.

[FrazT]

@Sunstrikuuu and @Metal  If you want to continue this discussion, please take it to PM and lets leave this thread for feedback, please

[Sunstrikuuu]

15 hours ago, FrazT said:

@Sunstrikuuu and @Metal  If you want to continue this discussion, please take it to PM and lets leave this thread for feedback, please

Sure.  My feedback is that 340 hours across four saves have been affected by this particular staffing glitch, and I hope it gets looked at.

[FrazT]

12 minutes ago, Sunstrikuuu said:

Sure.  My feedback is that 340 hours across four saves have been affected by this particular staffing glitch, and I hope it gets looked at.

I see that you have raised this in the  Bugs forum and that is good.

[Zemahh]

Does anyone know what's going on with Team Reports?

I currently have 14 Scouts and I want them all to contribute with providing Team Reports on some of the top teams. I assign each one to a different team:

However, all the teams end up being scouted by a random Scout (not even Chief Scout or DoF), which means I only have one person doing them, so they end up taking a lot longer than they should (a few days per single team).

This isn't how it used to be in previous FMs, so I'm wondering what exactly is going on here. Is this intended to slow down the process or what?

Edited March 9, 2022 by Zemahh

[Neil Brock]

3 hours ago, Zemahh said:

Does anyone know what's going on with Team Reports?

I currently have 14 Scouts and I want them all to contribute with providing Team Reports on some of the top teams. I assign each one to a different team:

However, all the teams end up being scouted by a random Scout (not even Chief Scout or DoF), which means I only have one person doing them, so they end up taking a lot longer than they should (a few days per single team).

This isn't how it used to be in previous FMs, so I'm wondering what exactly is going on here. Is this intended to slow down the process or what?

 

Sounds like it could be a bug, would be worth raising here if you could please - https://community.sigames.com/bugtracker/football-manager-2022-bugs-forum/transfers-contracts-scouting-recruitment-meetings-and-staff-responsibilities/

[Oliver Roland]

Am I the only one who feels that a lot of goals are scored after great combination. Teams (mine also) playing like Barca in their prime in 2012. Keeping the ball and pass it through the defence from goalkeeper to open net or beautiful shot.

[Heywood JaBlowme]

Is it possible for the squad registration issues by AI clubs to ever be fixed? I always prefer to start saves unemployed and take over clubs at least 1-2 years in. Every club I start at I'm in registration hell both domestically & Cup play. I'm always left having to clean up the mess. This has been going on forever. Is this a non-fixable issue?  

[CaptCanuck]

53 minutes ago, Oliver Roland said:

Am I the only one who feels that a lot of goals are scored after great combination. Teams (mine also) playing like Barca in their prime in 2012. Keeping the ball and pass it through the defence from goalkeeper to open net or beautiful shot.

On occasion maybe - the repeated pattern over and over resulting in goals that I am seeing is (both for and against)

• attacker dribbles to the goal line a bit inside the 18yd box
• multiple defenders go follow the attacker into the cul-de-sac he's gone into
• attacker stops right on said goal line, posts up, and does a 180* turn
• attacker passes into the centre of the box for a late runner or CF who is all alone for an easy goal

It reminds me of EA Sports NHL game we used to play back in the mid 2000s, where skating down the wing past the goal and then passing it back out front was an easy way to score.

[Sunstrikuuu]

1 hour ago, Oliver Roland said:

Am I the only one who feels that a lot of goals are scored after great combination. Teams (mine also) playing like Barca in their prime in 2012. Keeping the ball and pass it through the defence from goalkeeper to open net or beautiful shot.

I see a lot of very pretty goals, yeah, but I think I set my teams up that way.  I want some credit for it!

I also do see a lot of far-post headers, counterattacking balls over the top, long shots -- there's enough variety for me to be happy with it.  Some prior versions have just been far-post-whack simulators, and 21 and 22 for their other flaws have definitely not been that.  I've had more deliberately-created midfield goals in this version than any prior version I can remember.

[Neil Brock]

1 hour ago, Heywood JaBlowme said:

Is it possible for the squad registration issues by AI clubs to ever be fixed? I always prefer to start saves unemployed and take over clubs at least 1-2 years in. Every club I start at I'm in registration hell both domestically & Cup play. I'm always left having to clean up the mess. This has been going on forever. Is this a non-fixable issue?  

Is this happening from a new save game? 

[Heywood JaBlowme]

1 minute ago, Neil Brock said:

Is this happening from a new save game? 

I start a save unemployed. I sim ahead and wait for a club I'm an interested in is in a position where there is a job opening or the manager's job security in unstable. I add a new coach and then take control of that club. Doesn't matter which club I take over. It seems the AI was not meeting the minimum squad registration requirements before I took over. This is nothing new. Was happening in previous versions as well. 

[marioNOW]

With the current amount of now literally game-breaking bugs that is growing with each version and updates of the game I think it is a safe assumption that for the player base that have been loyal and bought the game year-to-year, this version was the last nail in the coffin. For me at least, I will definitely not buy the next iteration as this decline in quality of the product. A special "thank you" on the decision to even raise the Editor's price, so that we can not even do/fix it ourselves without the extra profit. 

A summary for those who really want to know what is wrong with FM22:

Scouting overall. The more test the community does and the more in-depth you try to go with your planned assignments, individual scouting, country knowledge gain, more and more fundamental issues are highlighted. Check Zealand's recent tests or just do it yourself.

Player interactions and expectations is just a mess and it is perfect representation of the passive-aggressive communication from the studio side both here on this forum and social media channels. Promoting the new shiny stuff as "Headline Features" while never properly apologizing for the years of ignored reports issues that left unfixed. Like the Data Hub last year, while stat registering - that should have been the actual fundament - were completely broken. Heat/pass maps as well, you literally had no clue without watching the actual match itself on what your players were doing on the pitch. 

Programmed anti-human behavior on contract and transfer negotiations - just call it crime against humanity  . The AI team will demand 150m from you for a transfer listed player but will happily sell it to 50M some other CPU team. The AI footballer will demand 20k wages and a star contract from your 3* reputation team in the top flight, but will sign for 5k as a backup for a lower reputation team in the end. 

Media interaction and fixation of absolutely irrelevant topics like "tHE mEdiA WANTS to HeAr a pRoPer aNsWer fRom yOu" about a 3rd choice left back on loan in Kazakhstan when you are playing a title-deciding match against your rival on the last day of the season. 

AI transfer logic when squad building (hoarding wonderkids and not playing them or the opposite of having only 30+ players signed only based on reputation) and having 4 goalkeepers in the squad. 

Oh the majestic match engine. Looks right when you only watch the highlights - and definitely and improvement on the few one-dimensional previous iterations I agree, but the bar was very low with those let's be honest. When you dig into the details it is the same as with scouting. Completely ignored player instructions, Kroos-like 93+ pass completion % from a NCB, pressing issues - or depressing more like. Check out "Evidence based football manager" channel on Youtube for details. Not the clickbait videos but pure analysis t. NCBs acting exactly like BPDs, Carillero and CM-S having the exact same movement patterns, Hold position hard-coded roles roam like maniacs, APs with shoot less often having more shots then Mezzalas, BBMs having less distance covered than other roles. Interesting few hours to watch to realize our own ignorance on what is showed down our throat. 

There are 6 thousand registered bugs for this edition only (I get it, most of them are probably duplicates and some fixes, but this is unacceptable at any level). The replies from the moderators and sometimes from the developers that "fixing this will break 50 more things in the code so we will maybe try it next year". We do not care, of course it will have an impact on 50 others things. The fact that you even state this proofs that the game have reached the level that nobody at the studio can untangle the root cause from the source code that is being "patched" since 2005 but released at full price every year. Try this at any competitive market as a service provider. The South Park cable company reference should be pasted here. 

Really sorry for my aggressive rant and targeted points and please as a moderator or developer do not take this on you as personal as it is absolutely not aimed at you! As a past loyal player the biggest pain is that I really see the HUGE potential of this genre and product if it would be in the right hand, but I can simply not trust and cannot support SI any more sadly this is just another EA Sports situation.

[Sunstrikuuu]

@marioNOW Do you have a link to Zealand's tests?

[kertiek]

27 minutes ago, marioNOW said:

There are 6 thousand registered bugs for this edition only (I get it, most of them are probably duplicates and some fixes, but this is unacceptable at any level). The replies from the moderators and sometimes from the developers that "fixing this will break 50 more things in the code so we will maybe try it next year". We do not care, of course it will have an impact on 50 others things. The fact that you even state this proofs that the game have reached the level that nobody at the studio can untangle the root cause from the source code that is being "patched" since 2005 but released at full price every year. Try this at any competitive market as a service provider. The South Park cable company reference should be pasted here. 

 

those responses are really frustrating

 

it amazes me that everyone seems ok ignoring the abscense of dribbling in the ME,  i tested multiple times with psg and inverted wingers or inside forwards trying to make them focus in all possible combinations to make them cut inside, atempt to dribble a 1v1 against a defender, get past them and shoot at goal, just atempt to dribble, am not asking maradona like plays every time, just a little try to make them even a little more agressive at dribbling to get inside the box, but what happens almost every time? they dribble away from goal, the ffact that psg with messi, mbappe and neymar cant even do dribbles or tricks against a low tier team in versus mode is a joke, but hey the move "nice" off the ball so everything must be fine right? neymar and mbappe never dribble their way inside the box IRL ... right?

just look at this comment in the bugtracker pointing out alll this

https://community.sigames.com/bugtracker/football-manager-2022-bugs-forum/564_match-engine-ai-and-tactics/match-engine-22200-forwards-do-not-go-towards-the-goal-r3959/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-41639

 

before anyone asks what kind of play i refer to when i say win an 1v1 and shoot... something like this by fakir today
https://streamja.com/pMkO5

 

Edited March 9, 2022 by kertiek

[fc.cadoni]

1 hour ago, marioNOW said:

Scouting overall. The more test the community does and the more in-depth you try to go with your planned assignments, individual scouting, country knowledge gain, more and more fundamental issues are highlighted. Check Zealand's recent tests or just do it yourself.

Zealand need to learn the basics with the game.

Even the so called "playing the gaming since CM"; but does not know the basic mechanics with the game; then it's not SI fault.

More experienced players than me, started playing from FM16; knows that loaded-unloaded nations-leagues makes a big difference. Knowing that JPA/JPP is not the attributes which gonna produce more scouting reports. Knowing that scouter requires to have knowledge level of X country or countries within the region to start produce more reports; even what reports is coming to you based on club rep and many other factors (like reports reset, like league stats to free up memory)

Anyway, the basic mechanics has not been changed dramatically; tweaks every year in each field of the game happening and will be happen. If someone want to scout like FM16 in FM22; then have wrong assumption with the game.

Criticism is welcome when that happen with how to improve it or what to change. 

Edited March 9, 2022 by fc.cadoni

[alian62]

5 hours ago, kertiek said:

those responses are really frustrating

 

it amazes me that everyone seems ok ignoring the abscense of dribbling in the ME,  i tested multiple times with psg and inverted wingers or inside forwards trying to make them focus in all possible combinations to make them cut inside, atempt to dribble a 1v1 against a defender, get past them and shoot at goal, just atempt to dribble, am not asking maradona like plays every time, just a little try to make them even a little more agressive at dribbling to get inside the box, but what happens almost every time? they dribble away from goal, the ffact that psg with messi, mbappe and neymar cant even do dribbles or tricks against a low tier team in versus mode is a joke, but hey the move "nice" off the ball so everything must be fine right? neymar and mbappe never dribble their way inside the box IRL ... right?

just look at this comment in the bugtracker pointing out alll this

https://community.sigames.com/bugtracker/football-manager-2022-bugs-forum/564_match-engine-ai-and-tactics/match-engine-22200-forwards-do-not-go-towards-the-goal-r3959/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-41639

 

before anyone asks what kind of play i refer to when i say win an 1v1 and shoot... something like this by fakir today
https://streamja.com/pMkO5

 

I have dribbling in my game all the time . Its great . I even had a CD dribble on a run all the way to goal area and pass it off for a wonderful goal . My wingers dribble , my inside forwards run inside and dribble . I can only assume its tactics 

[Pasonen]

11 hours ago, kertiek said:

it amazes me that everyone seems ok ignoring the abscense of dribbling in the ME,  i tested multiple times with psg and inverted wingers or inside forwards trying to make them focus in all possible combinations to make them cut inside, atempt to dribble a 1v1 against a defender, get past them and shoot at goal, just atempt to dribble, am not asking maradona like plays every time, just a little try to make them even a little more agressive at dribbling to get inside the box, but what happens almost every time? they dribble away from goal, the ffact that psg with messi, mbappe and neymar cant even do dribbles or tricks against a low tier team in versus mode is a joke, but hey the move "nice" off the ball so everything must be fine right? neymar and mbappe never dribble their way inside the box IRL ... right?

I think the problem is in its complexity just like in completed passes being too high. FM needs more scenarios where you can really mess your game plan with your tactics and instructions just like you would geniously solve problems. Example. If you order your team dribble more against well defending tightly center guarding team there should be "maybe" higher chance to lose your chance to win a game. Meaning your instructions need to have more power and ofc consequences. Problem lies again in AI if there's more power in instructions then AI needs to be wiser.

[Icy]

I play in 2D as always have, prefer my imagination over the current display plus it's a more tactical view. Said that, I "see" plenty of dribbling and players running with the ball in all positions, even my BPD run from the back through players from time to time. Maybe the problem is not the lack of dribbling but the limitations of the 3D engine to properly display it vs real life or even more mature engines like Fifa/Pes.

So when you see a player running around defenders, he is in fact dribbling, just that the 3D engine doesn't have enough animations to display it, but the match engine is calculating these dribbles using the player attributes as it should.

If I have a single complain about the current ME is the amount of times strikers miss 1vs1 vs GK in counters, but other that than I'm pretty happy with it compared to past years and I see plenty of variety of goals

[Neil Brock]

16 hours ago, Heywood JaBlowme said:

I start a save unemployed. I sim ahead and wait for a club I'm an interested in is in a position where there is a job opening or the manager's job security in unstable. I add a new coach and then take control of that club. Doesn't matter which club I take over. It seems the AI was not meeting the minimum squad registration requirements before I took over. This is nothing new. Was happening in previous versions as well. 

Have you got a save game that shows this? If so, upload it as described here and let me know the file name so I can take a look - https://community.sigames.com/bugtracker/instructions-and-notes/how-to-upload-files-to-us-r98/

Thanks. 

[david_kax]

hace 23 minutos, Icy dijo:

I play in 2D as always have, prefer my imagination over the current display plus it's a more tactical view. Said that, I "see" plenty of dribbling and players running with the ball in all positions, even my BPD run from the back through players from time to time. Maybe the problem is not the lack of dribbling but the limitations of the 3D engine to properly display it vs real life or even more mature engines like Fifa/Pes.

So when you see a player running around defenders, he is in fact dribbling, just that the 3D engine doesn't have enough animations to display it, but the match engine is calculating these dribbles using the player attributes as it should.

If I have a single complain about the current ME is the amount of times strikers miss 1vs1 vs GK in counters, but other that than I'm pretty happy with it compared to past years and I see plenty of variety of goals

 

The problem is not that an animation is missing. Obviously, as you say, when an attacker runs to the side a defender is dribbling. The problem is that, most of the time, they dribble towards the wing and not towards the goal, especially when they are closer to the box.

Also, in many 1v1 situations they don't dribble on goal and prefer to make a safety pass.

In these threads, Kertiek and I have posted pkm files and graphs from various matches showing the direction of the dribbles, almost all of them towards the wings, almost all of them torwards the wing when the player is close to the box... I would love for all of you who say that IF/ IW work perfect and run with the ball cutting inside and dribbling towards goal, put those same graphics (not an isolated play) showing that IF/IW direct their dribbling towards goal.

 

https://community.sigames.com/bugtracker/football-manager-2022-bugs-forum/564_match-engine-ai-and-tactics/match-engine-22200-forwards-do-not-go-towards-the-goal-r3959/page/2/#comments

 

 

 

[esca]

Is anybody know if the contract situation of foreign players in Ukraine/Russia can sign to any club until June will be in the Winter Update?

[Loversleaper]

 

This guy is a left footer playing on the right as an inverted wing. I don't know the level of expectations that some might have in regards to how an Inverted Winger or an Inside Forward should play - let's face it, they all can't perform like Mo Salah or Neymar... that would be far reaching in my opinion. I do know that making these roles work require some work around them, like do they have space to run into... are there other players occupying those spaces or running into them as well. How is the forward passing, risky passes, mentality movement, roles around them? I've seen plenty of cut in dribbling but to expect that to happen very frequently won't exactly reflect real life either. Teams playing narrow defensively, players showing players onto their weaker foots, forcing the opposition out wide... these are realities that you will encounter - breaking them down is not always as easy as it looks.  

[FrazT]

21 minutes ago, esca said:

Is anybody know if the contract situation of foreign players in Ukraine/Russia can sign to any club until June will be in the Winter Update?

The situation in Europe is liquid and changing daily, so frankly, there is no chance of anyone at this stage knowing what will and wont be in the update- you will just need to be patient and wait till we are all told.

[david_kax]

hace 4 horas, Loversleaper dijo:

 

This guy is a left footer playing on the right as an inverted wing. I don't know the level of expectations that some might have in regards to how an Inverted Winger or an Inside Forward should play - let's face it, they all can't perform like Mo Salah or Neymar... that would be far reaching in my opinion. I do know that making these roles work require some work around them, like do they have space to run into... are there other players occupying those spaces or running into them as well. How is the forward passing, risky passes, mentality movement, roles around them? I've seen plenty of cut in dribbling but to expect that to happen very frequently won't exactly reflect real life either. Teams playing narrow defensively, players showing players onto their weaker foots, forcing the opposition out wide... these are realities that you will encounter - breaking them down is not always as easy as it looks.  

 

I'm not asking any IF/IW to dribble 5 defenders and score like that every match. It is simply requested that this role works according to its description and the player's favorite plays. And if a left-footer plays on the right flank as IF/IW and his favourite play is running with ball cutting inside, it is normal that most of the time he runs with the ball and dribbles torwards inside to find his strong leg... When he has 3 defenders in front of him? Of course not, but in 1v1 situations, counterattacks, superiorities... They should be looking to dribble towards goal much more often than away.

It's easier to say that those of us who complain don't know how to do a tactic and it's our fault, maybe that's the way, I hope then that the tactician geniuses who deny the bug because they are able to make their IF/IW dribble most of the time to the inside, put up the dribble direction charts to show it like Kertiek and I have done.

 

 

Edited March 10, 2022 by david_kax

[Loversleaper]

Boston Utd v Sunderland.pkm

 

@david_kax

 

It is possible, it won't maybe happen as frequently as one would like... but I don't have the statistics in front of me to say if the game reflects real life stats or not. All I can do is offer a humble opinion that I do experience dribbling inside and well performing inverted wingers/inside forwards. As I mentioned, there are certain things tactically/instruction/mentality that usually help a little in that department

[david_kax]

hace 28 minutos, Loversleaper dijo:

Boston Utd v Sunderland.pkm 208 kB · 1 download

 

@david_kax

 

It is possible, it won't maybe happen as frequently as one would like... but I don't have the statistics in front of me to say if the game reflects real life stats or not. All I can do is offer a humble opinion that I do experience dribbling inside and well performing inverted wingers/inside forwards. As I mentioned, there are certain things tactically/instruction/mentality that usually help a little in that department

 

After each match, you can access graphics that show the direction of the dribbles. There you will see the tendency to dribble outside, contrary to the tendency that marks the role and favorite plays of the player. If you look at the data of at least 5/6 matches, the tendency towards outside of the dribbles is evident, there is no possible interpretation, they are data.

Of course, your opinion is highly respectable. I'll take a look at the match you've uploaded when I have some time. Thanks 

 

[here4downloads]

Why are pass completion rates from all teams so unrealistically high? Makes making tactics obsolete. Please fix!!!! 

[kertiek]

2 hours ago, Loversleaper said:

Boston Utd v Sunderland.pkm 208.43 kB · 4 downloads

 

@david_kax

 

It is possible, it won't maybe happen as frequently as one would like... but I don't have the statistics in front of me to say if the game reflects real life stats or not. All I can do is offer a humble opinion that I do experience dribbling inside and well performing inverted wingers/inside forwards. As I mentioned, there are certain things tactically/instruction/mentality that usually help a little in that department

watched the match, both goals are from a pass into the space .. never the forward did a dribble or feint against the defenders before scoring, he just ran to the space cutting inside.

goal 1

Spoiler

goal 2

Spoiler

 

 

and all the dribbling from the game is towards the wing.. nothing aggressive going into the box . the scorer of both goals in the match u posted has nº 30 shirt

 

 

my feedback about IF/IW not dribbling and taking defenders on, is their lack of dribbling and cutting inside with the ball in their feet, the off ball movement is great, they attack spaces and shoot at goal mostly when they dont have a defender infront like in both goals form the match above, because mostly when there is a defender in front of them they just go wide turn 180º and pass it back to recycle the ball back to midfield or they attempt a cross, but they very rarely try to dribble their way into the box.

 

using this tactic, with team instruction "run at defence" they dont do it, they go wide

the IW on attack that have instruction the "drible often" locked in, but most of those dribbles are going wide, not into the box

these are the dribbles they attempt

 

that match is a test in versus mode from psg against a low tier team controlled by ai manager, but seems like mbappe messi and neymar, simply cant dribble their way into the box and leave a defender behind by dribbling, they simply refuse to do it, dont even try to dribble into the box, if they tried and lose the ball 9 of 10 times  i wouldnt be complaing because its normal that they wont score or win every 1v1 against a defender, but the problem is that they never try to dribble their way in, most of the dribbles are just going wide, nothing into the box.

 

u can check the match from psg with a low tier team in versus mode using the tactic posted above here

240785759_YorkieCityvParisSG.pkm

 

i played whole tournaments in vs mode with 16 teams , me controlling liverpool vs 15 low tier teams controlled by AI manager, using the tactic posted above only once salah tried to cut inside with the ball in their feet, dribbled a defender and when he got into a 2nd defender he passed the ball back to the center to thiago that was making a run forward from the midfield, these kind of play happening only once in 7 matches, specially if the whole tactic is setting the whole team to attack mostly by dribbling and IW cutting inside with the ball, is too rare to be like that, most of the attacks should be by dribbling but the match engine just fails to implement the instructions set in the tactic, and most of the goals come from off the ball movement, the lack of agressive dribling going into the box is a ghost that only happened in previous versions of the game, these kind of plays happen in fm22 but they are very rare, they dont even attempt to dribble their way into the box.

Edited March 10, 2022 by kertiek

[Loversleaper]

@kertiek

 

In both cases it’s clear the winger runs in toward goal. The argument is that “they never do that” so this shows in that sense it’s not entirely the case. The second goal he beats the man cutting inside with a few touches and scores. I have seen this plenty of times - also misses after cutting inside. 
 

It feels a little like there is an argument that the player should basically cut inside from the throw in line and beat 3-4 players. Realistically how many times do we see that in real life? Beating a man or 2 is difficult enough. Cutting inside can mean a lot of things, maybe the FM game’s interpretation of that is different from yours. 
 

There is an argument that inverted wingers and inside forwards are “useless”. I don’t have that opinion when I’m looking at assists and goals scored stats of those type of players I have in my squad. 

Edited March 10, 2022 by Loversleaper

[kertiek]

22 minutes ago, Loversleaper said:

@kertiek

 

In both cases it’s clear the winger runs in toward goal. The argument is that “they never do that” so this shows in that sense it’s not entirely the case. The second goal he beats the man cutting inside with a few touches and scores. I have seen this plenty of times - also misses after cutting inside. 
 

It feels a little like there is an argument that the player should basically cut inside from the throw in line and beat 3-4 players. Realistically how many times do we see that in real life? Beating a man or 2 is difficult enough. Cutting inside can mean a lot of things, maybe the FM game’s interpretation of that is different from yours. 
 

There is an argument that inverted wingers and inside forwards are “useless”. I don’t have that opinion when I’m looking at assists and goals scored stats of those type of players I have in my squad. 

no, i said like 5 times in my previous comment, they dont dribble their way into the box with the ball in their feet, you know the dribble skill? 

look at this video

 

those are dribbles, not neymar running into the space with no defender in his way, and those dribbles with him making it into the box is the play that rarely happens in this match engine, am not saying they have to win every 1v1, they just refuse to attempt to dribble their way into the box.

 

also i never said that if/iw are useless, they produce asissts and goals, but most of that comes from off the ball movement, nothing from they creating space or dribbling their way into the box, imagine having the one of the flashiest skill in footballers rarely happening because neymar, mbappe and messi are mostly known by not dribbling at all .. right? 

edit to not making another comment:
 

u know the yellow thing that u see in the first second in this video? .. is representing a defender and the player going into the box has to dribble his way into the box to shoot, exactly the play i refer to in my previous comments and that rarely happens in the current match engine.

 

Edited March 10, 2022 by kertiek

[CaptCanuck]

3 hours ago, david_kax said:

 

After each match, you can access graphics that show the direction of the dribbles. There you will see the tendency to dribble outside, contrary to the tendency that marks the role and favorite plays of the player. If you look at the data of at least 5/6 matches, the tendency towards outside of the dribbles is evident, there is no possible interpretation, they are data.

Of course, your opinion is highly respectable. I'll take a look at the match you've uploaded when I have some time. Thanks 

 

This (I picking this post, but you've reiterated it a couple times) is the behaviour I am seeing repeatedly and leads to the goals I mentioned above, when it's on. Otherwise it leads to a long passback to a defensive player or a tackle for loss of possession/corner.

For an IF/IW/RMD with a path to goal, that is where they should go - the goal - but the tendency in my experience is absolutely for them to veer off and look to pass or get tackled.

Each version brings its behaviours and tendencies and this is certainly one for FM22.

Edited March 10, 2022 by CaptCanuck

[david_kax]

hace 1 hora, Loversleaper dijo:

@kertiek

 

In both cases it’s clear the winger runs in toward goal. The argument is that “they never do that” so this shows in that sense it’s not entirely the case. The second goal he beats the man cutting inside with a few touches and scores. I have seen this plenty of times - also misses after cutting inside. 
 

It feels a little like there is an argument that the player should basically cut inside from the throw in line and beat 3-4 players. Realistically how many times do we see that in real life? Beating a man or 2 is difficult enough. Cutting inside can mean a lot of things, maybe the FM game’s interpretation of that is different from yours. 
 

There is an argument that inverted wingers and inside forwards are “useless”. I don’t have that opinion when I’m looking at assists and goals scored stats of those type of players I have in my squad. 

No one is complaining about that.

IF/IW cut inside off ball and their off-ball movements are excellent from beta.

When they receive a pass into space without a defender in his way (your match goals), they run towards goal with the ball (this from the updates).

We don't ask that each game score goals after dribbling to 3 or 4 defenders. 

What is requested is that when IF/IW is near the box in situations of superiority, 1vs1 or counterattacks... they dribble towards goal and not towards the wing.

I say this with all due respect, of course. But you are in less than a week the second user who shows a pkm to show that the IF / IW dribble inside and the dridbles towards goal do not appear anywhere... And the graph that Kertiek show from your match with the blue arrows is indisputable. 

Please, we do not create controversy by confusing, deliberately or not, a dribble towards goal with running with the ball towards goal without a defender in his way. The second thing is clear to all of us that it works, the first is clearly not.

 

[Dotsworthy]

1 hour ago, Loversleaper said:

It feels a little like there is an argument that the player should basically cut inside from the throw in line and beat 3-4 players. Realistically how many times do we see that in real life? Beating a man or 2 is difficult enough. Cutting inside can mean a lot of things, maybe the FM game’s interpretation of that is different from yours.

As a Newcastle fan I see Allan Saint-Maximin attempt this every week 

I don't think IW/IF are bad in FM22, in fact I get a lot of success from them, you just don't see a lot of dribbles into the box or up the pitch. Saint-Maximin for example doesn't play any different in then most players on the wing, whereas in real life he looks to dribble immediately as his first course of action.

The current match engine is mostly great though. I like a lot of the general play and you get a good variety of goals from different situations, so I can forgive dribbling being a bit nerfed this year.

[Johnny Ace]

Just bare in mind @kertiek, dribbles recorded are dribbles that are made when the run beats another player, so the dribbles stat may only record clear dribble past another player. So players can cut in and take a shot without actually beating a defender 

I'll play some FM tonight & look for cut ins and shots  

[kertiek]

44 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Just bare in mind @kertiek, dribbles recorded are dribbles that are made when the run beats another player, so the dribbles stat may only record clear dribble past another player. So players can cut in and take a shot without actually beating a defender 

I'll play some FM tonight & look for cut ins and shots  

 in the 11 won dribbles that i posted from the psg game above, only one was inside the box and ended up as a  cross (from mbappe), certainly u can agree that neymar mbappe and messi should at least win one 1v1 going into the box and shooting at goal in a whole match against a low tier team?

 

i played multiple tournaments with liverpool and psg trying different tactics and combinations with instructions to attempt to force the IW/IF players to cut inside with the ball and do a feint/trick winning a 1v1 against a defender consistenly, that simply does not happen, there is rare events where salah  or other IF do cut inside but it happens rarely maybe once in 6 games, most of those kind of plays they simple refuse to dribble their way in with the ball on their feet, am not considering off ball movement at all, all these is tested in vs mode with 4 groups of 4 teams with knockoff stages played at home and away where tactic familiarity does not count at all.

 

just to check what u said about the accuracy of the dribble stats i checked the stats of the psg vs low tier match i posted above:

- all of the failed shoots ( saved or blocked from messi ) none is from a play that was from dribbling

- all the events of lost posession from messi are from him either getting cought offside, doing a bad pass or cross or taking a bad set piece that got cleared by the opposite defense, none of his lost posessions come from a failed dribble

most of the matches i play trying to figure what the problem is with players refusing to dribbling inside the box i watch them in comprehensive highlights and after i review the match stats to making sure am not missing actual plays where the players did what am searching for, still no luck doing it consistenly.

if someone has a magic tactic that does effectively make the IW/IF players to cut inside WITH the ball dribbling their way in winning a 1v1 against a defender o even just consistenly loosing 1v1s but attempting them frenquently, ill gladly test it and come back to show the stats proving that it does happen and am wrong about this specific play.

Edited March 10, 2022 by kertiek

[Loversleaper]

 

As I understand it, this part of the analysis only shows successful dribbles and not attempted. As you can see here, then it happens (fairly often when I look through other games in my save) for my team compared to the screenshot @kertiek showed. There could be a few reasons for that. One is that I use different settings/mentalities/instructions than the tactic shown and the other reason could be that the tests are against much weaker opposition. Normally the AI against superior opposition will try to force opposition much more outside. But it doesn't say much about the attempts the players make, I see lots of unsuccessful cut inside attempts. How those stats stack up to real life is something I don't really have any idea about.

 

If the argument is that they never cut inside and inverted wingers/inside forwards are useless, then I would argue that's not the case from what I see. But if the argument is that the game doesn't represent how Neymar dribbles compared to real life then I would concur. But the reality of this game is looking more at it in terms of successful verses unsuccessful actions. Maybe the graphic programmers can up the ante on the visuals around the "tries trick" traits - but that's a whole different argument...

Edited March 10, 2022 by Loversleaper

[Johnny Ace]

55 minutes ago, kertiek said:

 

 

i played multiple tournaments with liverpool and psg trying different tactics and combinations with instructions to attempt to force the IW/IF players to cut inside with the ball and do a feint/trick winning a 1v1 against a defender consistenly, that simply does not happen, there is rare events where salah  or other IF do cut inside but it happens rarely maybe once in 6 games, most of those kind of plays they simple refuse to dribble their way in with the ball on their feet, am not considering off ball movement at all, all these is tested in vs mode with 4 groups of 4 teams with knockoff stages played at home and away where tactic familiarity does not count at all.

I've got this beaut I saved from the other day, great goal & a player beats another player. the animation in 3D was the defender doing a sliding tackle & the runner running through him. Excuse the pause at the start 

That was a left winger on attack in a flat 4 midfield. That's pretty rare & doesn't happen enough but I've voiced this. It's the same for central runners, they prefer to avoid the defender & run wide 

[david_kax]

hace 35 minutos, Loversleaper dijo:

 

As I understand it, this part of the analysis only shows successful dribbles and not attempted. As you can see here, then it happens (fairly often when I look through other games in my save) for my team compared to the screenshot @kertiek showed. There could be a few reasons for that. One is that I use different settings/mentalities/instructions than the tactic shown and the other reason could be that the tests are against much weaker opposition. Normally the AI against superior opposition will try to force opposition much more outside. But it doesn't say much about the attempts the players make, I see lots of unsuccessful cut inside attempts. How those stats stack up to real life is something I don't really have any idea about.

 

If the argument is that they never cut inside and inverted wingers/inside forwards are useless, then I would argue that's not the case from what I see. But if the argument is that the game doesn't represent how Neymar dribbles compared to real life then I would concur. But the reality of this game is looking more at it in terms of successful verses unsuccessful actions. Maybe the graphic programmers can up the ante on the visuals around the "tries trick" traits - but that's a whole different argument...

After the last update, the complaint is not that IF/IW never cut inside or don't score goals. They do it off ball and with the ball when they don't have defenders in their way, they score goals... On that we agree. 

The complaint is that, in situations of superiority or 1 vs 1, they have an exaggerated tendency to dribble towards outside or pass and rarely dribble inside... Even if the player is a excellent dribbler and that defender is the only thing that separates him from being able to enter the box or have a clear shot

When an IF/IW receives the ball on the sideline near the box and has a defender in his way but has space to move torwards goal os shot (not if he has 3 or 4 defenders, of course) he should try to dribble towards goal looking for the shot or enter the box with much more frequency.

[akinozcan]

While I agree that these should be more frequent, let me share 3 more good IF/IW cutting in examples.

 

 

 

 

 

[Marko1989]

It is interesting that in 2022. people have to share videos of IF cutting inside as a proof that cutting inside happens, which should be a must for a football game that has an 2D/3D engine for almost 20 years now. 

[DaddyPig86]

2 minutes ago, Marko1989 said:

It is interesting that in 2022. people have to share videos of IF cutting inside as a proof that cutting inside happens, which should be a must for a football game that has an 2D/3D engine for almost 20 years now. 

This is CM4.

I know that 2d isn't the 'prime' mode anymore..but is it really that different from now? CM4 was 2003.

Edited March 10, 2022 by DaddyPig86

[Marko1989]

8 minutes ago, DaddyPig86 said:

This is CM4.

I know that 2d isn't the 'prime' mode anymore..but is it really that different from now? CM4 was 2003.

I am not exactly sure what is your point Graphically, they are not that different, but animations, movement etc are very different, and after so much time, every role must work as intented, it should never happen that for example inside forwards in 2015 look more like inside forwards than in FM 2020, and 2021, which has happened. That is my point, it is funny how after so many years people must post videos as a proof of something basic, like IF cutting inside

Edited March 10, 2022 by Marko1989

[Metal]

10 minutes ago, Marko1989 said:

It is interesting that in 2022. people have to share videos of IF cutting inside as a proof that cutting inside happens, which should be a must for a football game that has an 2D/3D engine for almost 20 years now. 

Well there are people denying it ever happens in their game. 

Prepatch that may have been the case, but post patch wingers/IFs and IWFs all dribbling so there can be no complaints. People need to move on

[kertiek]

Just now, Metal said:

Well there are people denying it ever happens in their game. 

Prepatch that may have been the case, but post patch wingers/IFs and IWFs all dribbling so there can be no complaints. People need to move on

share your tactic to test it?

[Marko1989]

1 minute ago, Metal said:

Well there are people denying it ever happens in their game. 

Prepatch that may have been the case, but post patch wingers/IFs and IWFs all dribbling so there can be no complaints. People need to move on

Yeah, but again, football game with long history should not be released with roles not working as intented, or to wait for a patch for IFs to start cutting inside. But ok, I don't want brag about this, it was just funny to me when I saw the videos

[akinozcan]

15 dakika önce, Marko1989 said:

Yeah, but again, football game with long history should not be released with roles not working as intented, or to wait for a patch for IFs to start cutting inside. But ok, I don't want brag about this, it was just funny to me when I saw the videos

I didn't claim it is as it should be or a blessing for us. I just gave a few examples for issue discussed and added that it should be more frequent. I hope this explanation is enough for you or keep fun. Up to you.  

[Metal]

18 minutes ago, kertiek said:

share your tactic to test it?

Why am I gonna do that? To prove they dribble? lol come on now, if they don't dribble in your game well that's too bad then that's your problem you need to work out not mine. Maybe you need better players or maybe you're just not paying attention enough as when in the highlights they are making dribbling runs, I don't know.

 

17 minutes ago, Marko1989 said:

Yeah, but again, football game with long history should not be released with roles not working as intented, or to wait for a patch for IFs to start cutting inside. But ok, I don't want brag about this, it was just funny to me when I saw the videos

I agree we shouldn't have had to wait til march for a complete game, but it's done now. I'd love it if SI put patches together earlier but the community just accepts it being out late.

[kertiek]

16 minutes ago, Metal said:

Why am I gonna do that? To prove they dribble? lol come on now, if they don't dribble in your game well that's too bad then that's your problem you need to work out not mine. Maybe you need better players or maybe you're just not paying attention enough as when in the highlights they are making dribbling runs, I don't know.

 

I agree we shouldn't have had to wait til march for a complete game, but it's done now. I'd love it if SI put patches together earlier but the community just accepts it being out late.

no proof, i dont believe you then.

since you refuse to add anything of value to the discussion other than "move on" and "ItS YoUR TaCTiCS" .. ill go ahead and  add you to the  ignore list <3

Edited March 10, 2022 by kertiek

[KingCanary]

XG seems a bit off here- this is a replay of the shot my opponent scored from- as you can see it was their first shot on goal, a free kick from 20+ yards but given an XG of 0.35? I struggle to believe this a chance that goes in 1 in every 3 attempts...