Is dynamic youth ratings for nations working how it should be?

[CosmicCreepers]

Oh turns out there were 2 pages of responses since then that i didn't see lmao. Also hadn't watched the video in question until now. But ye, at least the statements I can agree with in the video is that it isn't that difficult to change/improve this, and that the current "Dynamic" part of it isn't really that dynamic.

I'm still going to campaign that "Youth Rating" is a nonsense number that doesn't make sense because it tries to mash together a load of different factors into one number, rather than having a few numbers that are actually meaningful and then taking a function of those to generate players. Join my bandwagon!

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by CosmicCreepers

[vikeologist]

I'm not sure this has been answered before, but could someone from SI tell us.

What difference does DYR make?

Like at the start of my save(and as it happens 5 seasons in) China's DYR is 60 and Nigeria's is 120.

So if everything else (and I realise this is a lot of things) was completely the same, what difference would the DYR make, and by how much?

Would Nigeria's average PA of regens in theory be more than that of China? Or is it the CA?. By how much? Twice?

I know that SI don't want to give away all their secrets, but it would be nice if they could give us a rough idea of its basic power (independent of the whole dynamic part).

Also, where does DYR rank in power along with the things we've had for a while at individual clubs, such as a club's facilities? The facilities are all maxxed out at the value of '20', so how does 160 odd difference between France and Kiribati compare to this?

Was there a Youth rating (albeit not dynamic) before FM22?

I don't usually buy the IGE. (genuinely only bought it this year because of the DYR feature, so although I appreciate this is an ongoing process, I'm not completely not cheesed off with the implementation and hyping of DYR).

[jurix]

21 hours ago, Daveincid said:

Someone seems to have missed my test in this thread  

Can you explain what did you test? I saw it but it's not clear what changes you made and how you ran it.

My guess is you changed youth and training facilities of all of the san marinese clubs and simulted without managing anything. Is that correct?

Edited January 20, 2022 by jurix

[CosmicCreepers]

 

2 minutes ago, vikeologist said:

I'm not sure this has been answered before, but could someone from SI tell us.

What difference does DYR make?

Like at the start of my save(and as it happens 5 seasons in) China's DYR is 60 and Nigeria's is 120.

So if everything else (and I realise this is a lot of things) was completely the same, what difference would the DYR make, and by how much?

Would Nigeria's average PA of regens in theory be more than that of China? Or is it the CA?. By how much? Twice?

It's been communicated plenty and Youth Rating in general works the same as other games. What it does (in combination with the other variables like economic factor and deveoloped status) is create a probability distribution for the generation of new players. The higher your Youth Rating, the higher the chance that a player generated of this nationality falls into one of the higher PA bands.

There is then a separate calculation, as i understand, that will determine how many players of a set nationality to generate.

The CA is not influenced directly by this calculation (although will be influenced slightly by the overall PA of the player) and is determined instead by facilities and junior coaching of the clubs they are generated at.

Quote

I know that SI don't want to give away all their secrets, but it would be nice if they could give us a rough idea of its basic power (independent of the whole dynamic part).

Also, where does DYR rank in power along with the things we've had for a while at individual clubs, such as a club's facilities? The facilities are all maxxed out at the value of '20', so how does 160 odd difference between France and Kiribati compare to this?

Was there a Youth rating (albeit not dynamic) before FM22?

I don't usually buy the IGE. (genuinely only bought it this year because of the DYR feature, so although I appreciate this is an ongoing process, I'm not completely not cheesed off with the implementation and hyping of DYR).

This isn't really a "secret". They have communicated elements of how it works over the years, and it's fairly well known. Youth Rating has existed for about 15 years it just wasn't "Dynamic". The only secret is the actual specific mechanic of how it gets to its end decision, and that is probably not communicated because im not certain many people in SI actually know for sure how its working. :')

Some of the questions you asked here were answered by Andrew from SI earlier in the thread (i think its on page 2 or 3).

[Daveincid]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb jurix:

Can you explain what did you test? I saw it but it's not clear what changes you made and how you ran it.

My guess is you changed youth and training facilities of all of the san marinese clubs and simulted without managing anything. Is that correct?

I've tested what impact facilities-adjustments have when it comes down to newgens-quality. There have been no other changes beside the San Marino-league-file and the facilities-adjustments. Everything is attached so you can take a look if you want 

My conclusion is simple:

1. You can improve, even very small Nations like San Marino, massively with how the game works right now. (You already could do that in FM21, but it seems more logical in FM22) 

2. Youth Ratings change (I don't understand it 100% but the result counts, and the result is good)

3. League/Club-improvements > Nations success and not the other way

4. It's all about the output and not some values within the pre-game editor
 

 

[jurix]

44 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

I've tested what impact facilities-adjustments have when it comes down to newgens-quality. There have been no other changes beside the San Marino-league-file and the facilities-adjustments. Everything is attached so you can take a look if you want 

In your opinion what would be the best approach for building a nation save step by step, perfect scenario, for a guy managing in lets say Romania right now?

[XaW]

4 minutes ago, jurix said:

In your opinion what would be the best approach for building a nation save step by step, perfect scenario, for a guy managing in lets say Romania right now?

I'm not Dave, but I imagine the best way would be to take over a club improve their facilities to max, then resign and take over another club, improve their facilities to the max, etc. The more clubs that will have max facilities, the better newgens will appear nationwide. In addition, improving the league standing by getting far in Europe would be a likely factor.

[Daveincid]

Gerade eben schrieb jurix:

In your opinion what would be the best approach for building a nation save step by step, perfect scenario, for a guy managing in lets say Romania right now?

1. Invest in your facilities

2. Try to sign some good older players with high reputation and good personality (high reputation helps to grow club reputation slightly / good personality as a mentor and overall squad personality)

3. Try to lower the average age of your club (can influence the value "youth importance" which is also an important hidden value)

3. Improve your staff as good as possible

4. Win games

5. Win games

6. See point 5

[CosmicCreepers]

1 hour ago, Daveincid said:

I've tested what impact facilities-adjustments have when it comes down to newgens-quality. There have been no other changes beside the San Marino-league-file and the facilities-adjustments. Everything is attached so you can take a look if you want 

My conclusion is simple:

1. You can improve, even very small Nations like San Marino, massively with how the game works right now. (You already could do that in FM21, but it seems more logical in FM22) 

2. Youth Ratings change (I don't understand it 100% but the result counts, and the result is good)

3. League/Club-improvements > Nations success and not the other way

4. It's all about the output and not some values within the pre-game editor
 

 

Like I appreciate that test as an example using a challenge save that people regularly do... but I don't think it's really sufficient to say it's working as intended or in a way that players really expect.

In answer to these points, for some reason i can't open in game editor in these saves so i cant comment further but:

1) So really the point here is: nothing noticeable changed between FM21 and FM22 in your opinion? (I havent done a test on FM21, but to me these PAs in the facility increased side seems on the high side)

2) I don't really see what the selling point of this is. What I see is a more San Marinese players with a higher potential being generated than I would expect to see for such a small nation. Peoples complaints were 2-fold: Either they weren't able to notice a significant change in their nation despite success, or Some nations were improving dramatically without real justification for it. I would suggest this is the latter. A single club nation with such a low population should be struggling to generate high potential players, and the players you should see in your youth system should be other nationalities (largely Italians from nearby areas) convinced to sign.

You have progressed 2 years in the save... and this is the results. I am worried by the significant difference.

3) This seems fine, but also apparently investing in facilities at your clubs apparently can decrease youth rating from implications of what Andrew said earlier in this thread.

4) No, the results are computed from values that appear in the pre-game editor. We know this as a fact, so the values are important, it is just unclear what the function applied to these values is and as such  how much influence each one has. If you want to base your view on output in the game then you are going to need to simulate this a hell of a lot more times to get results that are statistically significant and be careful about your game set up to ensure that enough leagues are enabled as more than view only so youth intakes aren't heavily biased towards the league you've set as playable.

Edited January 20, 2022 by CosmicCreepers

[jurix]

13 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

1. Invest in your facilities

2. Try to sign some good older players with high reputation and good personality (high reputation helps to grow club reputation slightly / good personality as a mentor and overall squad personality)

3. Try to lower the average age of your club (can influence the value "youth importance" which is also an important hidden value)

3. Improve your staff as good as possible

4. Win games

5. Win games

6. See point 5

So play 10 seasons with a club to get them to a formidable state development-wise.

Resign and take over another side.

Rinse and repeat for 100 seasons to get a couple of clubs to the desired level. Gotcha.

That's exactly what we're arguing against. It's absolute insanity what you're proposing.

[Daveincid]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb CosmicCreepers:

or in a way that players really expect.

That's the point

vor 2 Minuten schrieb CosmicCreepers:

1) So really the point here is: nothing noticeable changed between FM21 and FM22 in your opinion? (I havent done a test on FM21, but to me these PAs in the facility increased side seems on the high side)

I don't have the facts but it feels like it's more logical but hey, I still have FM21 installed. I'll make one

vor 4 Minuten schrieb CosmicCreepers:

2) I don't really see what the selling point of this is. What I see is a more San Marinese players with a higher potential being generated than I would expect to see for such a small nation. Peoples complaints were 2-fold: Either they weren't able to notice a significant change in their nation despite success, or Some nations were improving dramatically without real justification for it. I would suggest this is the latter. A single club nation with such a low population should be struggling to generate high potential players, and the players you should see in your youth system should be other nationalities (largely Italians from nearby areas) convinced to sign.

And I don't understand why so many people don't understand the point of it, but I get missunderstood quite often

This was an extreme example which you can't achieve ingame without cheating. It should demonstrate what you "theoretically" can achieve with facilities only. If you play the game the normal way you won't be able to max out all facilities immediately. This would take you a decade or more. The reputation-argument is answered with my last sentence: It would take you much longer to be even able to improve them like this. 

I only adjusted facilities and not reputations, that's why you don't see a lot of nearby located players from other Nations.

vor 9 Minuten schrieb CosmicCreepers:

3) This seems fine, but also apparently investing in facilities at your clubs apparently can decrease youth rating from implications of what Andrew said earlier in this thread

Correct, which is crucial to hold the overall balance withing the game-world. If the goal of SI would be to make it possible to let the user overtaking Brazil with San Marino in 20 years I would leave the community immediately  Andrew said it's also their goal to keep things realistic so I'm happy to stay

vor 12 Minuten schrieb CosmicCreepers:

4) No, the results are computed from values that appear in the pre-game editor. We know this as a fact, so the values are important, it is just unclear what the function applied to these values is and as such  how much influence each one has. If you want to base your view on output in the game then you are going to need to simulate this a hell of a lot more times to get results that are statistically significant and be careful about your game set up to ensure that enough leagues are enabled as more than view only so youth intakes aren't heavily biased towards the league you've set as playable.

And SI don't have to explain every little detail, luckily they don't. I want to play a game which creates some kind of immersion and not the boring excel-sheet behind those values.  Oh I do simulations 24/7, believe me, I wouldn't argue with that confidence if I don't know what I'm talking about

 

[CosmicCreepers]

1 hour ago, Daveincid said:

I've tested what impact facilities-adjustments have when it comes down to newgens-quality. There have been no other changes beside the San Marino-league-file and the facilities-adjustments. Everything is attached so you can take a look if you want 

My conclusion is simple:

1. You can improve, even very small Nations like San Marino, massively with how the game works right now. (You already could do that in FM21, but it seems more logical in FM22) 

2. Youth Ratings change (I don't understand it 100% but the result counts, and the result is good)

3. League/Club-improvements > Nations success and not the other way

4. It's all about the output and not some values within the pre-game editor
 

 

Oh turns out the reason i can't view in editor is because you are set as admin on the game and have disabled the use of in-game editor in the game so I cannot see any of these things even if i wanted to.

[Daveincid]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb jurix:

So play 10 seasons with a club to get them to a formidable state development-wise.

Resign and take over another side.

Rinse and repeat for 100 seasons to get a couple of clubs to the desired level. Gotcha.

That's exactly what we're arguing against. It's absolute insanity what you're proposing.

II thought you were referring to be successful with one club and do the best you can to improve the whole nation that way.

You are right, doing this with alm clubs would be insane. If your goal is to reach unrealistic output like dominating the world with Romania (National Team and League) in a realistic timeframe you are playing the wrong game I'm sorry.

[Daveincid]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb CosmicCreepers:

Oh turns out the reason i can't view in editor is because you are set as admin on the game and have disabled the use of in-game editor in the game so I cannot see any of these things even if i wanted to.

True, I missed that one^^ It doesn't matter anyway, even if you won't share my opinion.

[jurix]

Just now, Daveincid said:

II thought you were referring to be successful with one club and do the best you can to improve the whole nation that way.

You are right, doing this with alm clubs would be insane. If your goal is to reach unrealistic output like dominating the world with Romania (National Team and League) in a realistic timeframe you are playing the wrong game I'm sorry.

Unrealistic outcomes such as Wrexham winning the Prem? Or Malmö winning the ECL? Or a manager winning all 5 CLs?

Dude you're the one playing the wrong game if you think there are only realistic outcomes in FM.

[Daveincid]

Gerade eben schrieb jurix:

Unrealistic outcomes such as Wrexham winning the Prem? Or Malmö winning the ECL? Or a manager winning all 5 CLs?

Dude you're the one playing the wrong game if you think there are only realistic outcomes in FM.

it's much easier to win the CL with Wrexham as they are playing in a Nation where money is almost unlimited once they are playing in the Premier League. Doing this with a team from Belarus, Albania or just outside of the top 10-Nations is much more challenging.

I never said there are only realistic outcomes in FM. Don't put words in my mouth which I haven't said, thanks

[CosmicCreepers]

3 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

That's the point

I don't have the facts but it feels like it's more logical but hey, I still have FM21 installed. I'll make one

And I don't understand why so many people don't understand the point of it, but I get missunderstood quite often

This was an extreme example which you can't achieve ingame without cheating. It should demonstrate what you "theoretically" can achieve with facilities only. If you play the game the normal way you won't be able to max out all facilities immediately. This would take you a decade or more. The reputation-argument is answered with my last sentence: It would take you much longer to be even able to improve them like this.

Ok, and fine. But to me this is an example of Youth Rating being a nonsense number that needs to be looked at if you can in the space of 2 years with an edit in facilities generate players of San Marinese nationality with that potential. I don't think it's really a defence of DYR.

Quote

I only adjusted facilities and not reputations, that's why you don't see a lot of nearby located players from other Nations.

Yes, but then that doesn't explain the miraculous change of a country with the population of a small town (36,000) suddenly being able to produce one top european division level potential talent, and then a full squad of decent level players in europe that would (if they all hit near their potentials) make this team compete for qualification to the Euros at the very least within the space of 3 intakes. That's why even with top facilities, it should be considering the draw of players from surrounding Italy to its facilities because this result is nonsense.

Quote

Correct, which is crucial to hold the overall balance withing the game-world. If the goal of SI would be to make it possible to let the user overtaking Brazil with San Marino in 20 years I would leave the community immediately  Andrew said it's also their goal to keep things realistic so I'm happy to stay

And SI don't have to explain every little detail, luckily they don't. I want to play a game which creates some kind of immersion and not the boring excel-sheet behind those values.  Oh I do simulations 24/7, believe me, I wouldn't argue with that confidence if I don't know what I'm talking about

But what you have shown is something that isn't maintaining the overall balance of the game, and what is being shown by others in their simulations is something that isn't maintaining the overall balance of the game. And equally what Andrew said is their goal is to keep things realistic and these results, other results, and the method of calculation all fail in that regard.

And no, SI don't have to explain every little detail, but it is in their interest to communicate clearly what is going on in this case rather than saying "it's too complicated we want to maintain realism" whilst every piece of data i'm seeing is shattering that "realism".

What you are failing to understand is that the way it is calculated at present IS A BORING EXCEL SHEET OF THOSE VALUES. It is a set function that makes little sense, and there is some other set function that allows the Youth Rating number to change. What I have been saying all along is IT DOESNT HAVE TO BE, and the current limits applied and lack of time spent sense checking this area prevent it from progressing in any meaningful way.

[CosmicCreepers]

9 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

True, I missed that one^^ It doesn't matter anyway, even if you won't share my opinion.

Well I mean it does matter if you're going to make a statement about Youth Rating having changed...

[Daveincid]

Gerade eben schrieb CosmicCreepers:

Well I mean it does matter if you're going to make a statement about Youth Rating having changed...

It's proven by others that it does change and my test was mainly meant to avoid people quitting their saves because they thought they couldn't achieve success with small Nations, nothing more nothing less.

[CosmicCreepers]

1 minute ago, Daveincid said:

It's proven by others that it does change and my test was mainly meant to avoid people quitting their saves because they thought they couldn't achieve success with small Nations, nothing more nothing less.

Ok then that part is fine, but then don't start using that data to make implications that firstly "Youth Rating" makes sense in any game, and secondly "Dynamic Youth Rating" is working as intended. Your data shows neither...

[Daveincid]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb CosmicCreepers:

Ok, and fine. But to me this is an example of Youth Rating being a nonsense number that needs to be looked at if you can in the space of 2 years with an edit in facilities generate players of San Marinese nationality with that potential. I don't think it's really a defence of DYR.

Yes, but then that doesn't explain the miraculous change of a country with the population of a small town (36,000) suddenly being able to produce one top european division level potential talent, and then a full squad of decent level players in europe that would (if they all hit near their potentials) make this team compete for qualification to the Euros at the very least within the space of 3 intakes. That's why even with top facilities, it should be considering the draw of players from surrounding Italy to its facilities because this result is nonsense.

But what you have shown is something that isn't maintaining the overall balance of the game, and what is being shown by others in their simulations is something that isn't maintaining the overall balance of the game. And equally what Andrew said is their goal is to keep things realistic and these results, other results, and the method of calculation all fail in that regard.

And no, SI don't have to explain every little detail, but it is in their interest to communicate clearly what is going on in this case rather than saying "it's too complicated we want to maintain realism" whilst every piece of data i'm seeing is shattering that "realism".

What you are failing to understand is that the way it is calculated at present IS A BORING EXCEL SHEET OF THOSE VALUES. It is a set function that makes little sense, and there is some other set function that allows the Youth Rating number to change. What I have been saying all along is IT DOESNT HAVE TO BE, and the current limits applied and lack of time spent sense checking this area prevent it from progressing in any meaningful way.

My ressources are limited to go through everything you wrote. In the end I know for myself that it's working the way I understand it and I can fully enjoy the game this year. Last year I was furious about the newgen-intake bug, luckily they almost fixed that one 100% this year   I'm sorry for those who can't enjoy the game because of something they think is wrong (I do say "they think" because SI says it works, not because of my point of view). I wouldn't recommend to accuse SI that they lied

[Daveincid]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb CosmicCreepers:

Ok then that part is fine, but then don't start using that data to make implications that firstly "Youth Rating" makes sense in any game, and secondly "Dynamic Youth Rating" is working as intended. Your data shows neither...

my data shows what the game is capable of. You can see that point how you want to.

[CosmicCreepers]

4 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

My ressources are limited to go through everything you wrote. In the end I know for myself that it's working the way I understand it and I can fully enjoy the game this year. Last year I was furious about the newgen-intake bug, luckily they almost fixed that one 100% this year   I'm sorry for those who can't enjoy the game because of something they think is wrong (I do say "they think" because SI says it works, not because of my point of view). I wouldn't recommend to accuse SI that they lied

Ye but to communicate why people are frustrated:

- SI says "it works".

- When promoting the game to sell it, SI very heavily implied that this feature worked differently to how they are now saying "it works" and deliberately rode that hype.

[Daveincid]

Gerade eben schrieb CosmicCreepers:

Ye but to communicate why people are frustrated:

- SI says "it works".

- When promoting the game to sell it, SI very heavily implied that this feature worked differently to how they are now saying "it works" and deliberately rode that hype.

The only mentioning was a twitter-post of Miles on his personal account. I agree that this was somehow "unlucky". But there are people who want to refund the game because of that as a result. For something I think works fine. I would understand if it would be about something like the newgen-bug last year, where longterm-saves were (In my opinion) unplayable until their last update. But this one? Sorry for those who can't enjoy the game. I do.

[jurix]

8 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

11 minutes ago, jurix said:

17 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

II thought you were referring to be successful with one club and do the best you can to improve the whole nation that way.

You are right, doing this with alm clubs would be insane. If your goal is to reach unrealistic output like dominating the world with Romania (National Team and League) in a realistic timeframe you are playing the wrong game I'm sorry.

Unrealistic outcomes such as Wrexham winning the Prem? Or Malmö winning the ECL? Or a manager winning all 5 CLs?

Dude you're the one playing the wrong game if you think there are only realistic outcomes in FM.

it's much easier to win the CL with Wrexham as they are playing in a Nation where money is almost unlimited once they are playing in the Premier League. Doing this with a team from Belarus, Albania or just outside of the top 10-Nations is much more challenging.

I never said there are only realistic outcomes in FM. Don't put words in my mouth which I haven't said, thanks

Not putting anything in your mouth, you wrote it yourself. Wrexham winning ECL is about as unrealistic as Steaua winning it or Romania winning two World cups in a row in any given timeframe. It's just not going to happen in real life.

This game is all about making unrealistic things happen in the game-frame while using a realistic base as a start.

[CosmicCreepers]

20 hours ago, Daveincid said:

The only mentioning was a twitter-post of Miles on his personal account. I agree that this was somehow "unlucky". But there are people who want to refund the game because of that as a result. For something I think works fine. I would understand if it would be about something like the newgen-bug last year, where longterm-saves were (In my opinion) unplayable until their last update. But this one? Sorry for those who can't enjoy the game. I do.

Oh, the only mention was a twitter post from THE STUDIO DIRECTOR who is WIDELY FOLLOWED BY THE FM COMMUNITY, the post itself WAS TAGGED WITH #FM22FEATURES AND USED TO PROMO A LIVE STREAM OF FEATURES OF THE GAME IN A THREAD TOUTED AS PROVIDING MORE DETAIL ABOUT FEATURES, this post is directly saying "this is a feature of the game", and this comment was subsequently picked up by other well followed FM content creators SOME OF WHOM HAVE CONTACT AND RELEASED CONTENT INVOLVING MEMBERS OF THE SPORTS INTERACTIVE TEAM, and spread this further within the community TO THE FULL KNOWLEDGE OF SPORTS INTERACTIVE AND AT NO POINT DID ANYONE MAKE ANY STATEMENT TO CORRECT WHAT WAS SAID BY THE STUDIO DIRECTOR OR THESE CONTENT CREATORS.

Oh and to make it worse THE TWEET GOT MORE LIKES AND RETWEETS THAN ANY OTHER IN THAT THREAD.

That to me is as good as promising it, and should be called out.

Equally, as I have said and others have said: we all enjoy the game, but that does not mean we do not want the game to improve, and it does not mean that people shouldn't express pretty valid concerns about issues like this where they have allowed it to be used as a selling point only to then confirm it isn't as it was described.

[Daveincid]

Gerade eben schrieb jurix:

Not putting anything in your mouth, you wrote it yourself. Wrexham winning ECL is about as unrealistic as Steaua winning it or Romania winning two World cups in a row in any given timeframe. It's just not going to happen in real life.

This game is all about making unrealistic things happen in the game-frame while using a realistic base as a start.

Interessting understanding of my text, anyway...tell this RB Leipzig when they were in League 4 in Germany and now they play CL. Why? Because they have money and playing in a big Nation. So I disagree, it's not as unrealistic as the example with Romania  
 

[Daveincid]

20 hours ago, CosmicCreepers said:

Oh, the only mention was a twitter post from THE STUDIO DIRECTOR who is WIDELY FOLLOWED BY THE FM COMMUNITY and the point was subsequently picked up by other well followed FM content creators SOME OF WHOM HAVE CONTACT AND RELEASED CONTENT INVOLVING MEMBERS OF THE SPORTS INTERACTIVE TEAM, and spread this further within the community TO THE FULL KNOWLEDGE OF SPORTS INTERACTIVE AND AT NO POINT DID ANYONE MAKE ANY STATEMENT TO CORRECT WHAT WAS SAID BY THE STUDIO DIRECTOR OR THESE CONTENT CREATORS.

That to me is as good as promising it, and should be called out.

Equally, as I have said and others have said: we all enjoy the game, but that does not mean we do not want the game to improve, and it does not mean that people shouldn't express pretty valid concerns about issues like this where they have allowed it to be used as a selling point only to then confirm it isn't as it was described.

alright, too much conspiracy for me here I'm done

[CosmicCreepers]

4 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

alright, too much conspiracy for me here I'm done

Mate that's not a conspiracy, you can literally open the twitter thread and verify this , and look at the content of at least 2 streamers (inc. Zealand who we shall mention as his recent post seems to have directed people here).

DO NOT conflate "conspiracy" (i.e. irrational belief that something sinister is going on), with "holding people accountable" (e.g. rightful indignation that one of the major selling points you had for a game is actually not as described).

 

EDIT: also if you are implying that the tweets of someone from a "Personal Account" is not PR of the game and suggestion of it being is conspiracy...then you don't know how PR works. He uses his role at Sports Interactive and in Football Manager to get his following, he uses his posts to promote the game, he is in a position of responsibility at Sports Interactive and holds a position of responsibility over this game. These tweets are calculated and will always be considered as legitimate PR, particularly when placed in a thread promoting a live stream from the Sports Interactive office by Sports Interactive staff (i watched part of the stream) to promote the game.

Edited January 20, 2022 by CosmicCreepers

[Mars_Blackmon]

1 hour ago, jurix said:

So play 10 seasons with a club to get them to a formidable state development-wise.

Resign and take over another side.

Rinse and repeat for 100 seasons to get a couple of clubs to the desired level. Gotcha.

That's exactly what we're arguing against. It's absolute insanity what you're proposing.

So are people expecting to turn a nation like San Marino around in 5 years as they could take a lower league side to the top division within 5 years with back to back promotions? That don't seem like fun or challenging to me...

[jurix]

24 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

So are people expecting to turn a nation like San Marino around in 5 years as they could take a lower league side to the top division within 5 years with back to back promotions? That don't seem like fun or challenging to me...

I specifically mentioned Romania, don't know where you read San Marino. You can make the same argument for Poland, Ukraine, Russia, India or whatever big country.

And guess what man, different people find different things challenging. Or interesting.

When we get promised "HUGE impact cause it's dynamic", we're kind off pissed when in reality is "no impact, can't influence it cause it's dynamic based on only static factors we can't actually impact" type of deal.

FM is a game. In my opinion develop a nation challenges should be possible. We were teased they would be. They aren't.

[Novem9]

2 часа назад, Daveincid сказал:

II thought you were referring to be successful with one club and do the best you can to improve the whole nation that way.

 

Why defenders of the current status of DYR feature ignore the fact - many members want to see progress in other nations, not necessarily the one where the human player is located? 

*Not after 100 or 1000 seasons of course  

Edited January 20, 2022 by Novem9

[Mars_Blackmon]

24 minutes ago, jurix said:

I specifically mentioned Romania, don't know where you read San Marino. You can make the same argument for Poland, Ukraine, Russia, India or whatever big country.

And guess what man, different people find different things challenging. Or interesting.

When we get promised "HUGE impact cause it's dynamic", we're kind off pissed when in reality is "no impact, can't influence it cause it's dynamic based on only static factors we can't actually impact" type of deal.

FM is a game. In my opinion develop a nation challenges should be possible. We were teased they would be. They aren't.

I said nations like San Marino...

 

Where was it mention that dyr would have a "huge" impact? I missed that statement but that's a vague statement in general. Based on the data that was posted here, it does have an impact but other factors matter which always have.

 

Its like we are mistaken a blurp from twitter as some sort of huge revamped feature that was announced on official websites.

[Novem9]

2 минуты назад, Novem9 сказал:

Why defenders of the current status of DYR feature ignore the fact - many members want to see progress in other nations, not necessarily the one where the human player is located? 

*Not after 100 or 1000 seasons of course  

@Daveincid need to complete - by progress I mean working of DYR in general, so progress and regress of nations too. Not some minor nations in terms of football, but top ones

[Daveincid]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb Novem9:

Why defenders of the current status of DYR feature ignore the fact - many members want to see progress in other nations, not necessarily the one where the human player is located? 

*Not after 100 or 1000 seasons of course  

And many members want a realistic simulation as possible. If this isn't the main goal I would feel pretty pi**ed as a researcher. They collect data of players, watch them play IRL and even research finances and stuff  Why the effort if the game should allow you to bring a small Nation to the top that easy?

If you want a realistic simulation you need to set those Nations as playable, otherwise it's less accurate. (Compromise of processing power)

vor 5 Minuten schrieb Novem9:

@Daveincid need to complete - by progress I mean working of DYR in general, so progress and regress of nations too. Not some minor nations in terms of football, but top ones

I never said that I understand how the feature is calculated exactly. I've also noticed that there was no regress in general (I tested it in a earlier stage, not sure if it's still the case). 

I just repeat myself again:

- You can improve a whole Nation while managing one club only and this should actually be the most important information or am I wrong?

 

[Novem9]

4 минуты назад, Daveincid сказал:

- You can improve a whole Nation while managing one club only and this should actually be the most important information or am I wrong?

 

It's true. And was possible before, without dynamic DYR. And top newgens appeared in non-playable San Marino, Indonesia and other countries like Liechtenstein regulary. (In FM21 Liechtenstein highrated newgens met extremelly often for me )

9 минут назад, Daveincid сказал:

They collect data of players, watch them play IRL and even research finances and stuff

Don't get it. After 5 years of save database will change anyway.
Remember Spain, which national team was in stagnation in first half of 2000s. Italy had stagnation after World Cup 2006. Every nation has dynamics, no one is stable.

So 

12 минут назад, Daveincid сказал:

a realistic simulation as possible

realistic simulation is subjective opinion  I see opinion of DYR must be slow, but I believe it must be fluid and feel first changes after 5-6 seasons, i.e. big DYR update in start of 5 season.

And for protocol, I don't want to see a specific nation domination, just want to see how some nations change other in top. As you remember I wrote my confusion about many countries have YR 200 in long tests despite current top 160 (Brazil) - this is NOT I want to see. And yes, YR = 200 is not a guarantee but it makes changes HIGHER. So I see the reason to be worry about no limits and no status quo. The only argument against my opinion that I heard is subjective realism and factors that are not in the game, like F.A.

 

16 минут назад, Daveincid сказал:

I've also noticed that there was no regress in general

Regress even is more important and interesting thing for me in this feature

[Daveincid]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Novem9:

It's true. And was possible before, without dynamic DYR. And top newgens appeared in non-playable San Marino, Indonesia and other countries like Liechtenstein regulary. (In FM21 Liechtenstein highrated newgens met extremelly often for me )

So what should it be then now? More? Less? It worked in FM21 and it works in FM22 with some changes in the background where we don't have the exact code. SI says it works how they intended it to work but I think they also said that they are always looking to improve things.

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Novem9:

Don't get it. After 5 years of save database will change anyway.
Remember Spain, which national team was in stagnation in first half of 2000s. Italy had stagnation after World Cup 2006. Every nation has dynamics, no one is stable.

The success of a National Team is still not a factor

vor 5 Minuten schrieb Novem9:

realistic simulation is subjective opinion  I see opinion of DYR must be slow, but I believe it must be fluid and feel first changes after 5-6 seasons, i.e. big DYR update in start of 5 season.

And for protocol, I don't want to see a specific nation domination, just want to see how some nations change other in top. As you remember I wrote my confusion about many countries have YR 200 in long tests despite current top 160 (Brazil) - this is NOT I want to see. And yes, YR = 200 is not a guarantee but it makes changes HIGHER. So I see the reason to be worry about no limits and no status quo. The only argument against my opinion that I heard is subjective realism and factors that are not in the game, like F.A.

True that, but "keep things realistic" still lowers the possibilities in general

I've seen that too, it was kinda weird. Would be great to see after which year things are getting out of control. I've seen a tweet where it was about 200 yrs. I mean, even if it only lasts 100 years it's good, You can't even play 100 years with some solid database before FM23 is released

The whole discussion is very emotional, I get that. I also understand that I'm in a minority (fine with that, as long as it runs civil;) )

In the end we all have our own opinions about it. 

 

[santy001]

Discussions are becoming rather fragmented and covering a lot of the same ground given its well established now that dynamic youth ratings are in the game, but not working in the way some players expected. 

One thing is certain, SI will iterate on this further. This thread probably isn't going to be the best place to get your thoughts/views across on how it should be however. While its very likely too late for FM23 now, for those who feel strongly enough putting your thoughts together in a good feature request explaining how you think it should work and why will give it the best chance of emerging that way in the future. 

https://community.sigames.com/forums/forum/353-football-manager-feature-requests-pcmac/

Keep in mind though that some of you are suggesting things which would be really rather sizeable changes though if you're of the mind that dramatic changes should happen quickly you're going to have to put some serious persuasion in there given that its not exactly something you evidence without there also being counter-examples to.

[Novem9]

16 минут назад, Daveincid сказал:

The success of a National Team is still not a factor

28 минут назад, Novem9 сказал:

I use NT as a marker, not a factor. It was the argument for DYR must be faster. Do you understand my point now?

 

16 минут назад, Daveincid сказал:

The whole discussion is very emotional, I get that. I also understand that I'm in a minority

lol, I feel I'm in minority  because I'm not from members who disappointed about no fast improvement of specific nation. Don't interesting for me

 

16 минут назад, Daveincid сказал:

So what should it be then now? More? Less?

All I worry about is slow progression and no limis and no status quo (50%-50% progress-regress). But it will be sadly if SI make DYR faster with no limits - this my agenda and only this - faster, smarter. For all ingame nations in both directions of growth.

 

upd - @santy001 I see your message after post my own

Edited January 20, 2022 by Novem9

[Dbuk1]

I don’t understand the players that are sticking to DYR has to be realistic and stick to the rules currently used. The game starts off realistic (great). If you manage in the top leagues and are successful then the status quo continues (all good so far). If you manage in a minnow league and are wildly successful by dominating the champions league for example what do you think would happen if that were a possible reality? (It is in game btw). TV revenue and fan bases would increase. This would increase the footballing economy in the country and the popularity. This would benefit the whole league. 
 

Now if you want a realistic game the second you actually have a talented player in a minnow league he would be sold without your permission which would stop your club ever progressing to the top European levels full stop. 

[CosmicCreepers]

18 hours ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

Its like we are mistaken a blurp from twitter as some sort of huge revamped feature that was announced on official websites.

I feel like people are really missing this. It was a Tweet in an OFFICIAL PROMOTION THREAD FOR A LIVE STREAM TEASER OF FM22 BY SI STAFF FROM THE SI OFFICE. It was given the hashtage #FM22Features. IT WAS TWEETED FROM THE ACCOUNT OF THE DIRECTOR OF SPORTS INTERACTIVE.

This. Is. As. Good. As. An. Official. Announcement. You cannot tweet a load of things promoting your game from a semi-personal account (its essentially a FM PR account anyway), to promote a live stream that is run by the company, a live stream that you as the director of the company are personally in attendance of (he was there), a live stream that is being used to promote the game, and then suddenly claim that this tweet coming from you as the person responsible for this studio, was not official.

 

EDIT: In response to the below, the post is clearly not "all in capitals". And unfortunately it seems the only way to make the key points clear in these responses is to bold/capitalise the key parts of it. If you deem post formatting to be not in line with your community rules then by all means make that clear.

[XaW]

@CosmicCreepers - Leave the caps, please.

 

[CosmicCreepers]

2 hours ago, Daveincid said:

And many members want a realistic simulation as possible. If this isn't the main goal I would feel pretty pi**ed as a researcher. They collect data of players, watch them play IRL and even research finances and stuff  Why the effort if the game should allow you to bring a small Nation to the top that easy?

 

Dave. The data you gave on San Marino is proof that this isn't realistic, and that no research has actually gone into the generation of youth candidates. (Upgraded facilities suddenly means a nations of 36000 can magically find enough talent despite its strict nationality laws to compete to get into a major international tournament across only 3 youth intakes. For context Iceland invested heavily in facilities, hasa population over 10 times larger than this, and struggled into a couple of major tournaments having found some good players over the course of about 10 intakes)

By all means they do great research on making sure the current database is up to date, but everything that you and everyone else has shown in this thread is that generating youth players is very very flawed in the game, and absolutely not realistic in the slightest. You cannot defend the current process as "realistic" in any measure.

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by CosmicCreepers

[CosmicCreepers]

And honestly... "It's too late for FM23".

It's January. You aren't releasing the game until November. And we still have a questionably functioning version of FM22 that's I guess not getting looked at any more.

I really am questioning why I have chosen to invest this money in these games, and if this is how slowly you act on any feedback then tbh I can't wait for some other developer to decide to offer some competition.

And to continue  being honest i've spent a fair amount of time providing bug reports and feedback on these forums for things that are small fixes, and they still haven't been looked at (*or im told theyve been looked at but not patched in any update yet), so why do you think im gonna waste my effort "Making an argument" for a feature i know you're just gonna make an excuse to not do anyway?

Edited January 20, 2022 by CosmicCreepers

[Mars_Blackmon]

15 hours ago, CosmicCreepers said:

I feel like people are really missing this. It was a Tweet in an OFFICIAL PROMOTION THREAD FOR A LIVE STREAM TEASER OF FM22 BY SI STAFF FROM THE SI OFFICE. It was given the hashtage #FM22Features. IT WAS TWEETED FROM THE ACCOUNT OF THE DIRECTOR OF SPORTS INTERACTIVE.

This. Is. As. Good. As. An. Official. Announcement. You cannot tweet a load of things promoting your game from a semi-personal account (its essentially a FM PR account anyway), to promote a live stream that is run by the company, a live stream that you as the director of the company are personally in attendance of (he was there), a live stream that is being used to promote the game, and then suddenly claim that this tweet coming from you as the person responsible for this studio, was not official.

 

EDIT: In response to the below, the post is clearly not "all in capitals". And unfortunately it seems the only way to make the key points clear in these responses is to bold/capitalise the key parts of it. If you deem post formatting to be not in line with your community rules then by all means make that clear.

Not everyone follows twitter just like not everyone comes here to the forums. It wasn’t an official press release feature. It could have easily been missed by anyone who don’t follow the game’s development day by day…

[CosmicCreepers]

9 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

Not everyone follows twitter just like not everyone comes here to the forums. It wasn’t an official press release feature. It could have easily been missed by anyone who don’t follow the game’s development day by day…

Yes but like i clearly stated, this is an account followed by a lot of influential content creators. Some of whom jumped on this bandwagon at the knowledge of SI. And SI engaged with and took advantage of this hype that was created, rather than making a statement to say that what had been said was inaccurate.

To prove a point: I do not own a Twitter account and haven't for at least 10 years. And yet I was fed information from this tweet.

Edited January 20, 2022 by CosmicCreepers

[CosmicCreepers]

Like this was either calculated or really really misguided.

SI knows how much people love banging on about Youth Rating, build a nation saves, and generating wonderkids. It is very well known that people will jump on anything said by it. This tweet got retweeted more than any other in that thread about features. If you go find some youtube videos that talk about these features, the top upvoted comments are ones about the youth rating. It is clear that this was a feature that was allowed to be hyped up, despite it being nothing like it was suggested.

[Mars_Blackmon]

15 minutes ago, CosmicCreepers said:

Yes but like i clearly stated, this is an account followed by a lot of influential content creators. Some of whom jumped on this bandwagon at the knowledge of SI. And SI engaged with and took advantage of this hype that was created, rather than making a statement to say that what had been said was inaccurate.

To prove a point: I do not own a Twitter account and haven't for at least 10 years. And yet I was fed information from this tweet.

So you were fed  Information by content creators (who also have blown this subject up to the point that they had to rename a clickbait title of a video to avoid a lawsuit.) 

 

And...You don't see a problem here? 

 

Out of curiosity, Im still waiting for someone to point me in the direction of the misleading Information because I didn't not see that post. I've only seen the twitter post from Miles.

[grade]

29 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

Not everyone follows twitter just like not everyone comes here to the forums. It wasn’t an official press release feature. It could have easily been missed by anyone who don’t follow the game’s development day by day…

Even those that don't follow tweeter, read that tweet. it was that of big deal.

I don't have tweeter, I receive that notice like in all my social media.

Also it is a feature announcement. Miles use it to announce thousands of new features all these years, on tweeter. If it is not, what I'm reading?

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by grade

[CosmicCreepers]

19 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

So you were fed  Information by content creators (who also have blown this subject up to the point that they had to rename a clickbait title of a video to avoid a lawsuit.) 

 

And...You don't see a problem here? 

 

Out of curiosity, Im still waiting for someone to point me in the direction of the misleading Information because I didn't not see that post. I've only seen the twitter post from Miles.

Yes. Absolutely. If you as a company partner with content creators including these ones. And you are aware what you have tweeted is inaccurate, and you allow them to interpret this, and you see the hype that is being generated about it, and you ACTIVELY CHOOSE NOT TO respond to this to manage expectations, and instead ride the PR benefit that you get from it, then: Yes, absolutely you are to blame. SI actively pushed promotion of its features through content creators, even partnering with some to allow them Early Access to make some videos. If you are going to use content creators to deliver your message, if your director is going to tweet this message too, and if you are not then going to correct people about it until a month after release when you've already taken their money. You are inherently responsible for and deserving of the backlash.

That twitter post from Miles is misleading you can contest whether you feel it is yourself, but what he promises in that tweet is something that will be a "game changer" for long term and build a nation saves. That is not what this is.

EDIT: And to be honest mate you really give the impression that you're just being contrarian for the sake of it. The fact that this thread exists and has had so much activity in it is evidence enough that a large chunk of the player base feels they were misled and let down with this announcement and the reality of what was released. You can argue semantics all you like, but it won't change how others feel about it.

I also suspect a Moderator should close this thread as it really has ceased to be a discussion about Youth Rating and more a load of people telling others they have no right to be annoyed about something, and suggesting they shouldn't give any feedback or discuss how a feature like this should work...which is not really constructive to anything.

Edited January 20, 2022 by CosmicCreepers