FM22 - Creating a non-hoofball direct attacking team

[engamohd]

Originally taken from my blog (ahmedcoffeehouse.com)

========================================

During the past versions of the game, I have created a couple of projects aiming to create a direct brand of football. On FM20 it was a "hoofball" style with Milwall, and on FM21 it was a wingplay focused direct style loosely based on Gerardo Seoane's Young Boys' team. Both were modelled on a 4-4-2.

However, as we progressed through the seasons, the long ball style was quickly rendered obsolete and was binned. That made sense as the overreliance on playing target man makes the team easily nullified on the top level where hulking defenders like van Dijk, Koulibaly, Konate and Upamecano are playing.

Given the time to reflect, this made sense. No "ambitious" team at the highest level, play that brand. On the contrary, many top teams attack directly like Inter, Liverpool and even Man City at times.
It hence struck me that direct football does not necessarily equate to long/hoof ball. Quite simply, direct teams do not rely solely on transitioning by humping it forward. Here is the key difference. Long ball teams simply defend the ball and hoof it forward as soon as possible after it is won, while a direct team doesn't do ONLY that. Direct teams realize that, theoretically, a direct ball is the quickest and efficient way of scoring, and as such look to play such balls when possible. A great example is recent Liverpool goals scored from 2 or 3 passes. A long pass by Allisson, van Dijk or Trent Alexander Arnold to the forwards are a common sight in this Liverpool team that results in some beautiful goals.

Following further research, I have come across this brilliant article on spielverlagerung (https://spielverlagerung.com/2020/08/13/the-art-of-the-long-ball/) describing the "art of long ball". The title may sound weird, given that the concept of long ball means giving up some control in getting the ball into organized situations. However, the concepts explained in the article provided me with some ideas of how I want to improve my direct style and form the basis of my first FM22 project.

Playing style - theory

1. The first concept I want to implement is NOT using a 4-4-2. 4-4-2s has been a sort of a comfort zone for me in the previous games, and whenever I want to apply a direct attacking team I usually default to a 4-4-2. 4-4-2 is a great defensive shape, but it can get rigid in an attacking sense, especially when going direct.

By not playing in a 4-4-2, I will have the opportunity to apply many of the concepts discussed in the spielverlagerung article above.

2. Another important point is that I want to avoid creating a hoofball team. I do not want the team to lump it long unnecessarily to the target man. Instead, I'd like us to have variety and be able to play controlled football when required. In any case, the core intent of the team should be to penetrate directly and as quickly as possible.

This is quite difficult to balance, and will most probably require careful adjustments on a match by match basis.

3. Another concept I wish to recreate is the creation of counter-pressing opportunities high up the pitch if a long ball is failed. In other words, I envision us winning most of the second balls from the opponent. This requires highly intelligent and physical midfielders.

4. It goes without saying that after a direct long ball, sufficient support should be offered to the player receiving the ball. In a 4-4-2 this usually comes from the striker's partner. This is not enough for me, I want to have 3 or 4 options with variety around the offensive pivot.

5. This gets me to the next concept, in which I want to include the midfield in the attacking process, both providing assists and scoring too. I flirted with the idea of having a goalscoring midfielder, but never took it seriously enough to implement it in my projects. I look to implementing it this time.

Playing style - blueprint

After some deliberation, I decided I will use Fiorentina for this project. Reasons for this are simply:

a. Distinctive, beautiful colours
b. Midtable team with a nice budget
c. Good squad with a great offensive pivot (Vlahovic)
d. One of Salah's teams
e. Never managed them before, and are largely unknown to me

Before applying any of this to football manager, I'd like to share a blueprint of how I visualize the team's shape in line with my vision discussed above.

It was clear that I wanted to use a single striker system supported by wingers and 1 or 2 midfielders. I was intrigued to use a 3-5-2 but decided to try it in a future project. For this one, it was a really hard choice going between a 4-3-3 or a 4-2-3-1, but I decided to go for a 4-3-3.

Realizing that my required vision resembles Mourinho's famous Chelsea team, it was a good call to have a reference point. Another factor was that the 4-3-3 gives us the ability to commit two midfielders in support, allowing us to achieve more support as required.

Putting it all together, here is a blueprint of what I want to achieve. Translating this to football manager will be the topic of the next post.

I would like to hear your comments and ideas as I build upon this idea.

Edited October 24, 2022 by engamohd

[CARRERA]

13 minutes ago, engamohd said:

Given the time to reflect, this made sense. No "ambitious" team at the highest level, play that brand. On the contrary, many top teams attack directly like Inter, Liverpool and even Man City at times.

It hence struck me that direct football does not necessarily equate to long/hoof ball.

Appreciate someone putting up a more in depth guide on how direct football can work and look without just hoofing the ball, as many people still equate direct play with long ball football. Which it clearly isnt. 

Edited December 15, 2021 by CARRERA

[Pattric_b]

I like the ideas. It’s similar to how I play. After reading your philosophy my initial thought was you want to play gegen pressing, I didn’t equate your ideas to mourinho as his chelsea teams were never really known for counter pressing as much as they were known for fast counter attacks. Either way, this is an exciting way of playing and in order to achieve success you need high caliber players.

Players with mediocre physicals will struggle in a system like this. I’ve learned that from experience  Mane would be a perfect blueprint for you to use when signing new attacking players. 

[prched55]

1 hour ago, engamohd said:

I would like to hear your comments and ideas as I build upon this idea.

I'm looking forward to seeing how this plays out. I use a 433 and the one piece I haven't been able to figure out is the more direct play. My players just seem to play wasteful balls to the other team instead of hitting a teammate. 

[DarJ]

1 hour ago, engamohd said:

The first concept I want to implement is NOT using a 4-4-2. 4-4-2s has been a sort of a comfort zone for me in the previous games,

I did the same but with a 442 because I've never played with that particular formation 

[engamohd]

10 minutes ago, Pattric_b said:

I like the ideas. It’s similar to how I play. After reading your philosophy my initial thought was you want to play gegen pressing, I didn’t equate your ideas to mourinho as his chelsea teams were never really known for counter pressing as much as they were known for fast counter attacks. Either way, this is an exciting way of playing and in order to achieve success you need high caliber players.

Players with mediocre physicals will struggle in a system like this. I’ve learned that from experience  Mane would be a perfect blueprint for you to use when signing new attacking players. 

I am glad you like this style too!

What I meant by counter-pressing opportunity is that when we lose a long ball, we could have the opportunity to quickly regain it either via pressing or winning the second ball. Definitely not a gegen pressing side at all.

[halfspace3000]

really excited for this

[engamohd]

39 minutes ago, prched55 said:

I'm looking forward to seeing how this plays out. I use a 433 and the one piece I haven't been able to figure out is the more direct play. My players just seem to play wasteful balls to the other team instead of hitting a teammate. 

I find you need suitable players offering sufficient options to pull it off. My first iteration is looking good already!

[engamohd]

1 hour ago, DarJ said:

I did the same but with a 442 because I've never played with that particular formation 

How did it go?

[DarJ]

1 hour ago, engamohd said:

How did it go?

I chose the low block approach and it worked quite well. The team still have very good possession number also even if that wasn't really the focus 

[yellowforever]

Looking forward to this! Direct non-hoofball football is my 'default' set up on FM so interesting to see other people's take on it.

[halfspace3000]

49 minutes ago, engamohd said:

Having support (Scamacca) around the striker (Vlahovic) during attacks:

whats the tactic looking like?

[engamohd]

ORIGINALLY TAKEN FROM MY BLOG (ahmedcoffeehouse.com)

======================================================

In the first part, I outlined what I look to create in this project. For easier reference, the main points are:

1. Not using a 4-4-2, and using a 4-3-3 instead.

2. Non-hoofball passing

3. Press the area around the long ball in a bid to regain the ball

4. Lots of support around the striker

5. Have a goal scoring midfielder

Mentality

From what I want to create, it is clear that the team need to have a positive core attacking intent. This means more running on and off the ball, and more risky passes. This will allow us to play more controlled long balls, not the unwanted panicked hoof.

Selected mentality: Positive

Roles

Goalkeeper: SK-D - Just a typical goalkeeper, with the added responsibility of spotting counter attacking chances.

Fullbacks: WB-S - In order to create support around the offensive pivot, we need narrow attackers. Thus the provision of width will be by the fullbacks. I don't expect them to be involved throughout, but offer the required support and width when needed.

Centre backs: NCB and CB - Again, typical centre backs, with one given a NCB duty to clear dangerous balls without taking unnecessary risks.

Defensive Midfielder: DLP-D - I want this fellow to dictate the game from deep and ping the ball to the forwards. Instructing the team to play direct should see him become a focal point of our team.

Centre Mids: CM-S and Mez-S - These guys should be workhouses, providing support to the forwards and defenders when needed, keep the ball moving, and most importantly, make regular runs from deep. The Mezzala should be our goal scoring midfielder, which should run in undetected from deep. (PIs: Mez-S: More Urgent Pressing)

AML: IF-A - Our main goalscorer. I envision him to always be around the striker to receive layoffs and should make regular runs beyond the striker. (PIs: Stay Narrower, More Urgent Pressing)

AMR: IW-S - A more conservative version of the IF-A, with the added emphasis on chance creation to offer us variety going forward. (PIs: Stay Narrower, More Urgent Pressing)

Striker: DLF-A - Our offensive pivot. I opted against a TF-A since that I want a dynamic role that regularly attacks the channels, and also to avoid the rest of the team pinging the ball to him at all and any opportunities. (PIs: More Urgent Pressing)

The PIs here are very important in the creation of my style.

1. They instruct our four most attacking players to press harder, creating a sort of a split press, where these four players try to press the opponent as he receives or intercept a long ball by us.

2. Instructing our wide players to stay narrower to provide more support to the striker, and also to force opponent mistakes if we lose the ball during an attack.

Team Instructions

1. Much More Direct Passing: Style defining shout. I was reluctant to pick the extreme variant over the More Direct Passing TI, but finally decided to have the players implement direct passing to a large extent. I might lower it a notch in-game to gain more control.

2. Play Out of Defence: Might sound counter-intuitive, but we are not a hoofball team. We need the attacking players to be in the best possible shape before launching a direct ball towards a player or a run. The POD TI makes us more considered and patient at the back. However, the GK and the defenders could decide to play the long pass, but hopefully this TI and the DLP slows this tendency down a bit.

3. Fairly Narrow: As explained above, I want to provide support to the striker as a long ball is played. I see we could achieve this by playing narrow. Defensively, this should also makes life difficult for the opponents should be lose the ball in their half.

4. Counter: Quite obvious.

5. Defensive Line, Line of Engagement and Pressing Triggers: These three work in tandem together, thus I mention them together. I have two versions of them in order to look out games (Standard DL, High LOE, Standard Pressing) and (Low DL, Standard LOE, More Urgent Pressing). I use the first version against weaker teams and the second version against stronger teams. The main difference is where our block lies. Against top teams and quick forwards, it makes sense to drop our DL back a bit and add some depth to our vertical compactness, which I believe will help us in the second balls. On the other side, pushing the team higher with more aggressive pressing will let us dominate against weaker teams, or teams with slow forwards.

Before going on with the analysis in the next article to avoid this growing too long, I'll leave you with some moves and the initial results I had with this tactic. Please bear in mind that I am not letting the games fly on autopilot, but try to affect the game mainly by changing our pressing intensity, defensive shape and passing directness.

After losing the first game of the season to Sampdoria 1-0, using another tactic I was trying out, we won 5 games in a row, including a 6-0 win against Roma and victories against Inter and Napoli:

In this game against Napoli, our narrow attacking shape forces the Napoli defender to clear long as he is out of options the moment he wins the ball from us. The ball is hoofed towards our free defensive line:

Nastasic, the CB then gets the ball forward to Vlahovic (DLF-A) who has support close to him in Scamacca (IF-A). Vlahovic lays off the long direct ball to Scamacca to score our second goal.

Another nice move came against Inter, showing us direct exploitation of a central run by our IF-A (Bonaventura)

A similar move against Torino, in which the DLF-A (Vlahovic) holds the ball and gets it to Erick (CM-S) who quickly plays a direct ball into space to the on-rushing Mezzala (Seoane)

I know it is VERY early in the season to come to any conclusion, but I liked to share progress on how the style is panning out, and take notes of any your ideas and comments, before going in on a more detailed analysis in a later post.

Edited October 24, 2022 by engamohd

[halfspace3000]

44 minutes ago, engamohd said:

ORIGINALLY TAKEN FROM MY BLOG (ahmedmohd.com)

======================================================

In the first part, I outlined what I look to create in this project. For easier reference, the main points are:

1. Not using a 4-4-2, and using a 4-3-3 instead.

2. Non-hoofball passing

3. Press the area around the long ball in a bid to regain the ball

4. Lots of support around the striker

5. Have a goal scoring midfielder

Mentality

From what I want to create, it is clear that the team need to have a positive core attacking intent. This means more running on and off the ball, and more risky passes. This will allow us to play more controlled long balls, not the unwanted panicked hoof.

Selected mentality: Positive

Roles

Goalkeeper: SK-D - Just a typical goalkeeper, with the added responsibility of spotting counter attacking chances.

Fullbacks: WB-S - In order to create support around the offensive pivot, we need narrow attackers. Thus the provision of width will be by the fullbacks. I don't expect them to be involved throughout, but offer the required support and width when needed.

Centre backs: NCB and CB - Again, typical centre backs, with one given a NCB duty to clear dangerous balls without taking unnecessary risks.

Defensive Midfielder: DLP-D - I want this fellow to dictate the game from deep and ping the ball to the forwards. Instructing the team to play direct should see him become a focal point of our team.

Centre Mids: CM-S and Mez-S - These guys should be workhouses, providing support to the forwards and defenders when needed, keep the ball moving, and most importantly, make regular runs from deep. The Mezzala should be our goal scoring midfielder, which should run in undetected from deep. (PIs: Mez-S: More Urgent Pressing)

AML: IF-A - Our main goalscorer. I envision him to always be around the striker to receive layoffs and should make regular runs beyond the striker. (PIs: Stay Narrower, More Urgent Pressing)

AMR: IW-S - A more conservative version of the IF-A, with the added emphasis on chance creation to offer us variety going forward. (PIs: Stay Narrower, More Urgent Pressing)

Striker: DLF-A - Our offensive pivot. I opted against a TF-A since that I want a dynamic role that regularly attacks the channels, and also to avoid the rest of the team pinging the ball to him at all and any opportunities. (PIs: More Urgent Pressing)

The PIs here are very important in the creation of my style.

1. They instruct our four most attacking players to press harder, creating a sort of a split press, where these four players try to press the opponent as he receives or intercept a long ball by us.

2. Instructing our wide players to stay narrower to provide more support to the striker, and also to force opponent mistakes if we lose the ball during an attack.

Team Instructions

1. Much More Direct Passing: Style defining shout. I was reluctant to pick the extreme variant over the More Direct Passing TI, but finally decided to have the players implement direct passing to a large extent. I might lower it a notch in-game to gain more control.

2. Play Out of Defence: Might sound counter-intuitive, but we are not a hoofball team. We need the attacking players to be in the best possible shape before launching a direct ball towards a player or a run. The POD TI makes us more considered and patient at the back. However, the GK and the defenders could decide to play the long pass, but hopefully this TI and the DLP slows this tendency down a bit.

3. Fairly Narrow: As explained above, I want to provide support to the striker as a long ball is played. I see we could achieve this by playing narrow. Defensively, this should also makes life difficult for the opponents should be lose the ball in their half.

4. Counter: Quite obvious.

5. Defensive Line, Line of Engagement and Pressing Triggers: These three work in tandem together, thus I mention them together. I have two versions of them in order to look out games (Standard DL, High LOE, Standard Pressing) and (Low DL, Standard LOE, More Urgent Pressing). I use the first version against stronger teams and the second version against weaker teams. The main difference is where our block lies. Against top teams and quick forwards, it makes sense to drop our DL back a bit and add some depth to our vertical compactness, which I believe will help us in the second balls. On the other side, pushing the team higher with more aggressive pressing will let us dominate against weaker teams, or teams with slow forwards.

Before going on with the analysis in the next article to avoid this growing too long, I'll leave you with some moves and the initial results I had with this tactic. Please bear in mind that I am not letting the games fly on autopilot, but try to affect the game mainly by changing our pressing intensity, defensive shape and passing directness.

After losing the first game of the season to Sampdoria 1-0, using another tactic I was trying out, we won 5 games in a row, including a 6-0 win against Roma and victories against Inter and Napoli:

In this game against Napoli, our narrow attacking shape forces the Napoli defender to clear long as he is out of options the moment he wins the ball from us. The ball is hoofed towards our free defensive line:

Nastasic, the CB then gets the ball forward to Vlahovic (DLF-A) who has support close to him in Scamacca (IF-A). Vlahovic lays off the long direct ball to Scamacca to score our second goal.

Another nice move came against Inter, showing us direct exploitation of a central run by our IF-A (Bonaventura)

A similar move against Torino, in which the DLF-A (Vlahovic) holds the ball and gets it to Erick (CM-S) who quickly plays a direct ball into space to the on-rushing Mezzala (Seoane)

I know it is VERY early in the season to come to any conclusion, but I liked to share progress on how the style is panning out, and take notes of any your ideas and comments, before going in on a more detailed analysis in a later post.

the direct style of play and the 433 , reminds of how liverpool irl, keep the good work.

 

[engamohd]

10 hours ago, halfspace3000 said:

the direct style of play and the 433 , reminds of how liverpool irl, keep the good work.

 

It is surprisingly quite similar, without the ultra aggressive pressing.

Thank you

Edited December 16, 2021 by engamohd

[Nicenoise]

so you pretend this is not hoofball 

[engamohd]

49 minutes ago, Nicenoise said:

so you pretend this is not hoofball 

I am not pretending it is not hoofball, it actually is not.

We have good possession numbers, we score from open build up play and we don't mainly "hoof" it long to the big guy upfront.

Thats what I realized that being direct doesn't necessarily mean hoofball.

Edited December 16, 2021 by engamohd

[Guest]

Great thread and it's most definitely not hoofball.

[TIR669]

Will be interesting to track how your main goalscoring threat handles ME disability when it comes to IF roles when he has the ball.

You might avoid the issue by a bit since off the ball runs seem perfectly fine but they get confused when having the ball in possession. Narrow TI + direct + runs + stay narrow PI should be enough, but I hope the player is right footed for that left IF(a) position, and it wouldn't hurt to have a PPM of cuts inside from left wing. Don't know how Bonaventura looks like in-game.

As always, curious to what you'll get of this. Loved your 4-4-1-1 guides you made previously.

[HullCity1904]

Excellent work once again Ahmed. Glad you included the part about playing against weaker/stronger opponents. Very help ful.

[engamohd]

3 hours ago, HullCity1904 said:

Excellent work once again Ahmed. Glad you included the part about playing against weaker/stronger opponents. Very help ful.

Cheers Mike, thank you! Glad you like it and find it helpful

[engamohd]

4 hours ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

Great thread and it's most definitely not hoofball.

Thank you!

4 hours ago, TIR669 said:

Will be interesting to track how your main goalscoring threat handles ME disability when it comes to IF roles when he has the ball.

You might avoid the issue by a bit since off the ball runs seem perfectly fine but they get confused when having the ball in possession. Narrow TI + direct + runs + stay narrow PI should be enough, but I hope the player is right footed for that left IF(a) position, and it wouldn't hurt to have a PPM of cuts inside from left wing. Don't know how Bonaventura looks like in-game.

As always, curious to what you'll get of this. Loved your 4-4-1-1 guides you made previously.

So far doing good, I am waiting for a few more games to get a better picture of the IF-A and the DLF-A

[engamohd]

Further progress made, I found out that the AMR is not involved as much as he should, therefore, I changed him to a IF-A with the same settings of the AML, and added the Counter Pressing TI. Having my three forwards high up, and the DL deep, it made sense asking the team to counter press. In my mind, this should make the high forwards (especially the ones with the pressing more PI) press the opponent, forcing him to clear the ball, which should fall to our free deep defensive line.

 

[TIR669]

Ah yes the IF(a) in action according to SI logic in the last gif, love it. Takes the ball at 40m in a 2v3 and immediately rushes to hug the line, as any attack minded right footed player on the left would do.

[engamohd]

1 hour ago, TIR669 said:

Ah yes the IF(a) in action according to SI logic in the last gif, love it. Takes the ball at 40m in a 2v3 and immediately rushes to hug the line, as any attack minded right footed player on the left would do.

In that last GIF, he was closed down by four players. Forced outside by the opponent.

In many other moves I have seen normal IF-A movement.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, engamohd said:

In that last GIF, he was closed down by four players. Forced outside by the opponent.

In many other moves I have seen normal IF-A movement.

You just know that if IFs were continually moving centrally in to traffic and being tackled there would be half a dozen people moaning about how the ME is broken. SI can't win.

I really enjoy the fact that smarter players will take the ball wide when they have a bunch of defenders closing them down.

Good work btw!!!

[koimes]

Thanks for the work on this. Please keep us posted when teams start going defensive mid way through the season as I notice alot, if not all, of these examples feature acres of space behind the opposition defensive line

[DarJ]

@engamohd out of curiosity I switched from direct passing to much more direct passing in my tactic and I was surprised to see that the players were not just hoofing the ball. Maybe it's because I have play out of defence just like you. I really like how it works now they go for passes that they won't normally go for when on standard or even direct and it opens up lots of opportunity 

[kingjericho]

Very nice. I've been looking for a 4-3-3 as I haven't changed from my favourite 4-4-2 in about 5 years, maybe it's time for a breath of fresh air  

[engamohd]

Going into a difficult run of games playing Lazio, Juve and Milan back to back, it gave us a perfect opportunity to test our style against top teams. We blew 10 men Lazio 5-1, scoring this goal from build up play prior to them being down to 10 men:

It was nice seeing the variety in our attacking play, not just hoofing it to Vlahovic.

Next was the game against Juve. I opted for a more workmanlike midfield of Pulgar and Torriera besides the Mezzala (Castrovilli) to counter the strong Juve's lineup:

That's how I lined up for the previous 2 or 3 games. I dropped the Counter Press TI since I felt it made us too aggressive. I also made Vlahovic into a DLF-S and changed both wide players to IF-A, partly to offer more support to Vlahovic, and get the AMR more involved in the play.

It turned out quite easy, we totally blew Juve out of the water, with this being the highlight of our 4 goals:

Their final two goals came quite late, which I admit, was mainly due me forgetting to pause the game at around 70" to answer a phone call . I would have normally gone slightly more cautious, but it was nice to see how potent our attack is.

After 13 games in the Serie A, that's how we are doing right now:

I am so pleased to see that our IFs are the main top scorers, and Vlahovic and the wingbacks are the top assists providers. Still I am not getting enough output from Castrovilli, but I have Jamie Seoane, his backup, or the one that plays in the CM role chipping in with 3 goals and 1 assists, which hopefully means just poor form for Castrovilli. Watching the Mezzala in the game keeps me confident that sooner or later his numbers will go up

This is my lineup (and arguably my strongest) for Juve, and their attacking output numbers.

 

Edited December 18, 2021 by engamohd

[levo in da house]

 

Deeply to build better game,
I added CD-BDP Pass It Shorter GK- Take Fewer Risk.


 

[kingjericho]

@engamohd how is Vlahovic doing regarding goals? Does he get into scoring positions or is he mostly a creator for the IFs?

Have you tried a CF/s role? This year I see a lot more differences between CF and DLF than in previous editions, the DLF becomes almost solely focused on working for his colleagues.

[engamohd]

2 hours ago, kingjericho said:

@engamohd how is Vlahovic doing regarding goals? Does he get into scoring positions or is he mostly a creator for the IFs?

Have you tried a CF/s role? This year I see a lot more differences between CF and DLF than in previous editions, the DLF becomes almost solely focused on working for his colleagues.

He mainly creates for the Mez and the IFs, but gets at the end of attacking moves too.

[engamohd]

I am currently facing the midseason slump, started with a dismal display to Milan, but we managed to run away with a point.

Dismal defeats to Atalanta, Inter and Roma were only made better by some wins against weak sides. I tinkered a lot, since the main issue was that the players doesn't seem to find each other quite well, and the trademark forward runs were non-existent. In our next game to Torino, I decided to go on balanced rather than positive, to slow down our attacks slightly and be more considered.

Things looked better instantly as we held the ball better and did not play with too much risks, and the players were closer to each other. This is not a permanent change, but one I will use to navigate a difficult period.
A highlight of our more considered approach is scoring of this beauty against Torino:

Watching the game, we were much more confident in possession and did not lose it too often as we did in the previous games. Sometimes it may be a minor change (although mentality change isn't minor) is that all we need to bypass a rough patch of form.

 

 

Edited December 19, 2021 by engamohd

[engamohd]

This is probably the BEST counter attack I have ever seen

Edited December 19, 2021 by engamohd

[Guest]

6 hours ago, engamohd said:

This is probably the BEST counter attack I have ever seen

Five passes, lovely stuff!!!!

[Mr_Demus]

I have been pondering a Fiorentina save for a while. This thread has pushed me there.

[BullDozzer]

Great writing @engamohd! I found your articles about your direct attacking 4-4-2 by chance a week ago, so i was excited to see your new project.

I've been struggling with any kind of consistency in my IFK Göteborg, and wanted to play switch to single striker approach, so i copied your current setup. The attacking play has been very fun to see so far. IFs and Mezalla making lots of runs! But we've been leaking chances in the back so far. I've been playing with the lower block, but we're having an awful schedule with all the top teams. 

we have the familiarity now, so I'll try to see what i should try to adjust to be a bit tighter in the back.

i look forward to read your future updates. I'd love to have some writing about how you identify problems. What you look for. 

[trgtoztrk]

Hello,

It is great to see philosophies like yours in FM these days, as you mentioned earlier at your posts people who create tactics are almost creating the same tactics with minor differences.(High Tempo High Pressing High DL High High High etc.) Noone is trying any discrepancy. So I am really thankfull for this thread, I really enjoyed while reading it. And I am gonna try your tactic/philosophy with minor differences that's why I have few questions.

I am planning to use this tactical setup with 4-2-3-1 formation, so:

1- What would you suggest for midfield triangle's positioning, (DM-DM-CM) or (CM-CM-AM) ? 

2- What would you suggest for player roles at midfield triangle ? If (DM-DM-CM) is selected i think (DLP-D, SV-S, CM-A) maybe ?, for (CM-CM-AM) formation (DLP-D, MEZ-S, AM-A) ?

Thank you for your answers, 

Have a nice day,

Happy New Year.

[engamohd]

On 21/12/2021 at 03:43, BullDozzer said:

Great writing @engamohd! I found your articles about your direct attacking 4-4-2 by chance a week ago, so i was excited to see your new project.

I've been struggling with any kind of consistency in my IFK Göteborg, and wanted to play switch to single striker approach, so i copied your current setup. The attacking play has been very fun to see so far. IFs and Mezalla making lots of runs! But we've been leaking chances in the back so far. I've been playing with the lower block, but we're having an awful schedule with all the top teams. 

we have the familiarity now, so I'll try to see what i should try to adjust to be a bit tighter in the back.

i look forward to read your future updates. I'd love to have some writing about how you identify problems. What you look for. 

Cheers! Glad you like them.

I agree, the runs of the Mez in particular are incredible, ghosting unmarked into the box.

On 28/12/2021 at 09:21, trgtoztrk said:

Hello,

It is great to see philosophies like yours in FM these days, as you mentioned earlier at your posts people who create tactics are almost creating the same tactics with minor differences.(High Tempo High Pressing High DL High High High etc.) Noone is trying any discrepancy. So I am really thankfull for this thread, I really enjoyed while reading it. And I am gonna try your tactic/philosophy with minor differences that's why I have few questions.

I am planning to use this tactical setup with 4-2-3-1 formation, so:

1- What would you suggest for midfield triangle's positioning, (DM-DM-CM) or (CM-CM-AM) ? 

2- What would you suggest for player roles at midfield triangle ? If (DM-DM-CM) is selected i think (DLP-D, SV-S, CM-A) maybe ?, for (CM-CM-AM) formation (DLP-D, MEZ-S, AM-A) ?

Thank you for your answers, 

Have a nice day,

Happy New Year.

Thank you for your compliments.

A 4-2-3-1 is a good choice too, I'd start with a DM-DM-AM triangle. 2xDM-S, AM-S for starters is what I have in mind. That way your midfield would be in optimal positions for both transitional phases. If that does not work, then a CM-CM-AM combo, but that way you will have to sacrifice one of your fullbacks to a more conservative role to avoid being too aggressive, and in turn more open.

[trgtoztrk]

10 hours ago, engamohd said:

Cheers! Glad you like them.

I agree, the runs of the Mez in particular are incredible, ghosting unmarked into the box.

Thank you for your compliments.

A 4-2-3-1 is a good choice too, I'd start with a DM-DM-AM triangle. 2xDM-S, AM-S for starters is what I have in mind. That way your midfield would be in optimal positions for both transitional phases. If that does not work, then a CM-CM-AM combo, but that way you will have to sacrifice one of your fullbacks to a more conservative role to avoid being too aggressive, and in turn more open.

Thank you for your answer i tried it with DM-DM-AM(DLP-D, SV-S, AM-S) but it didn't sound defensively and that's why attacking effectiveness didn't get the result. I'm gonna try it with your suggestion and do u have any role suggestions for CM-CM-AM formation ?

[engamohd]

9 hours ago, trgtoztrk said:

Thank you for your answer i tried it with DM-DM-AM(DLP-D, SV-S, AM-S) but it didn't sound defensively and that's why attacking effectiveness didn't get the result. I'm gonna try it with your suggestion and do u have any role suggestions for CM-CM-AM formation ?

I'd try something like:

                GK
FB-S  CD-D  CD-D  WB-S

        CM-S   CM-D

IF-A        AM-S       IF-A

               DLF-S

[BullDozzer]

Since I wrote my last reply, I've restarted a save as IFK Gothenburg in Sweden, and played something inspired by this, but based around a 4-2-3-1.



And I have to say this combination has worked very well actually! I've chosen the 4-2-3-1 mostly to fit the personnel I have at hand, and that I don't really have any winger that can effectively cut in from the left. So I formed a 4-2-3-1 with Aiesh as a pretty standard winger on the right. 
I have the RB as a wb(S) right now, but he should probably be a FB(S) as @engamohd suggests, to be more playable to the defense than to the midfield, and also sit deeper to guard against counter attacks. I tried a few different variations of central midfielders, but I found CM(S) was going too much forward in attack, leaving no players to turn back to when players end up in cul-de-sacs. Even with DLP(S) and CM(D), due to the positive mentality, they will provide support in longer attacks, but mostly will remain back so that you have some player to turn to when you get stuck.

I still have a hypothetical personnel issue since neither of the 3 Offensive Midfield players are that good at scoring goals.. It works out because of the number of shots we get off, as well as Berg being in a good run of form, so it's not going badly, but there's an issue there for me.

Another change that I did was to pull LOE back one tick, and enable counter-press. Might be my players, but felt like i was not seeing the fighting for the ball after long balls on the striker that I wanted to see, but we did try to press the defense some times, without causing any real issues for them. Might be the skills of my offensive players, they're not pressing monsters. So I pulled it back one step, but enabled counter-press, and I feel it works somewhat. We try to press when we loose the ball, but don't loose our shape to harass defenders.

I also do have a 4-3-3 to whip out when I want to nullify opponents that play with a number 10, and they're good, as well as a 3-4-2-1 that I've used only a few times to try to negate some teams who play with 3 forwards (2xIF).

I've just lost the first game of the season, game number 10, in a game where the most defensive team in the league managed to run one past me, and then very much parked the bus. I can't remember when I played with positive mentality last, I found myself struggling with what to do when I need a goal, I usually switch cautious➡positive, but I'm already there! 😂

Again, if anything has surprised me, it's how good we've been at defending. We've conceded 5 goals (2nd lowest) in 10 matches, but more impressively, we've only allowed 27 shots on target, 2nd least has allowed 40. That's a positive I did not expect!
 

[Ewan0404]

Started using this philosophy at Everton and so far we've lost our opening 3 games, conceding 9 goals. To be fair we played City, Liverpool and Spurs so not panicking just yet. 

 

Edit - my main issues going forward seem to be that we're struggling to connect any passes. We lose possession from sloppy passing constantly. 

Edited December 30, 2021 by Ewan0404

[engamohd]

19 hours ago, BullDozzer said:

Since I wrote my last reply, I've restarted a save as IFK Gothenburg in Sweden, and played something inspired by this, but based around a 4-2-3-1.



And I have to say this combination has worked very well actually! I've chosen the 4-2-3-1 mostly to fit the personnel I have at hand, and that I don't really have any winger that can effectively cut in from the left. So I formed a 4-2-3-1 with Aiesh as a pretty standard winger on the right. 
I have the RB as a wb(S) right now, but he should probably be a FB(S) as @engamohd suggests, to be more playable to the defense than to the midfield, and also sit deeper to guard against counter attacks. I tried a few different variations of central midfielders, but I found CM(S) was going too much forward in attack, leaving no players to turn back to when players end up in cul-de-sacs. Even with DLP(S) and CM(D), due to the positive mentality, they will provide support in longer attacks, but mostly will remain back so that you have some player to turn to when you get stuck.

I still have a hypothetical personnel issue since neither of the 3 Offensive Midfield players are that good at scoring goals.. It works out because of the number of shots we get off, as well as Berg being in a good run of form, so it's not going badly, but there's an issue there for me.

Another change that I did was to pull LOE back one tick, and enable counter-press. Might be my players, but felt like i was not seeing the fighting for the ball after long balls on the striker that I wanted to see, but we did try to press the defense some times, without causing any real issues for them. Might be the skills of my offensive players, they're not pressing monsters. So I pulled it back one step, but enabled counter-press, and I feel it works somewhat. We try to press when we loose the ball, but don't loose our shape to harass defenders.

I also do have a 4-3-3 to whip out when I want to nullify opponents that play with a number 10, and they're good, as well as a 3-4-2-1 that I've used only a few times to try to negate some teams who play with 3 forwards (2xIF).

I've just lost the first game of the season, game number 10, in a game where the most defensive team in the league managed to run one past me, and then very much parked the bus. I can't remember when I played with positive mentality last, I found myself struggling with what to do when I need a goal, I usually switch cautious➡positive, but I'm already there! 😂

Again, if anything has surprised me, it's how good we've been at defending. We've conceded 5 goals (2nd lowest) in 10 matches, but more impressively, we've only allowed 27 shots on target, 2nd least has allowed 40. That's a positive I did not expect!
 

Thats a nice attempt, glad it is working well so far. Also, am very flattered to see my name in your tactical style name 😅

I have a few comments regarding your issues:

1. Did you instruct your front four to press more? I find this incredibly important to press around any long ball or turnover in possession.

2. I'd instruct the AM to move into channels, to replicate the Mezzala's runs.

3. I started to use default DL and LoE. Sometimes pushing the DL on tick higher. I find this more balanced and gets our defensive block more solid.

4. Take care of Berg, if he is getting isolated on the ball due to his attack duty.

 

[engamohd]

18 hours ago, Ewan0404 said:

Started using this philosophy at Everton and so far we've lost our opening 3 games, conceding 9 goals. To be fair we played City, Liverpool and Spurs so not panicking just yet. 

 

Edit - my main issues going forward seem to be that we're struggling to connect any passes. We lose possession from sloppy passing constantly. 

During these sloppy passing payches, I usually drop to Standard mentality, or try More Direct Passes instead of Much More.

Other thing to look for is the runs and support provided to your on ball player when you lose the ball.

[DarJ]

On 30/12/2021 at 20:09, BullDozzer said:

I found CM(S) was going too much forward in attack,

It depends on the player you have but I usually ask them to hold position

[BullDozzer]

I've played 5 more games, lost another, penalty goal away against top 5 team, so not crying rivers over it. Scoring the most goals (28), but only 3rd in xG (22,07), which you can either angle that we're lucky, or congratulate Berg on being ridiculously effective (6,46 xG, 13 goals). Still best defense, both goals and xG. still suprised about this. Still having very fun with this save!

On 31/12/2021 at 16:49, engamohd said:

Thats a nice attempt, glad it is working well so far. Also, am very flattered to see my name in your tactical style name 😅

Haha I hope it's not weird! 😅

On 31/12/2021 at 16:49, engamohd said:

1. Did you instruct your front four to press more? I find this incredibly important to press around any long ball or turnover in possession.

That's a great point! I absolutely did! I haven't really tried any configuration without it 🤔 I don't know if using PI to trigger press means that the pressing is a bit more chaotic? Feel like no10 can run past the striker to press a defender and such. Like they're not that organized in the pressing. Have you tried having a higher LOE and Pressing Trigger and then use PI on defensive players to keep them in place?

On 31/12/2021 at 16:49, engamohd said:

2. I'd instruct the AM to move into channels, to replicate the Mezzala's runs.

It's funny that you say that! That's exactly what I did when I first set it up. I didn't want the Shadow Striker since I wanted the player to remain in the hole and be available, but didn't want the player to be a kind of passing conduit with any playmaker role. Ended up trying AM(A), but found that he still was picking his waiting position a bit too far forward. Switched to AM(S) to have him sit back and pick out passes a little, but still wanted those runs, so turned on the Move Into channels, and haven't really felt the need to fiddle with the AM(C) since then.

He isn't my main scorer at all, as I understand the plan of your Mezalla is, but again, Sana who is playing there isn't that great at banging in the goals. He's topping the assist-table with 8 assists in 15 matches, but that's probably aided by corners and freekicks. He doesn't pass a lot or very accurately, but I guess that's par for the course when every pass tries to create a goal. He's also 2nd on clear chances created.

On 31/12/2021 at 16:49, engamohd said:

3. I started to use default DL and LoE. Sometimes pushing the DL on tick higher. I find this more balanced and gets our defensive block more solid.

That makes sense. I haven't moved the DL any higher, I put it lower sometimes to deal with some of the ridicously fast strikers I come across. Our defenders aren't that quick I'm afraid ( 11 acc, 12/13 pac on the 2 main ones, then I have a veteran who is clearly a lot slower)

 

On 31/12/2021 at 16:49, engamohd said:

4. Take care of Berg, if he is getting isolated on the ball due to his attack duty.

That's not something I have noticed 🤔 It might be something I should look out for in games where our attack isn't working! I've used Attack mostly because he's actually a goal scorer, so I want him to make the runs on goal. I'll keep this in mind when trying to analyze games where we are having trouble creating attacks!

[Tom14]

A lot of that article talks about the advantages of gaining the second ball being the purpose of passing long. Have you tried to replicate this, and if so what have you found? Was tempted to try this without a target man style forward and see if and energetic midfield could pick up the second ball to see if that works.

[teej9]

I love this article and the idea behind it. Cannot for the life of me implement it. Scored a total of 4 in 32 games before deleting the save. Probably just down to player quality.