Semi-toxic debate culture on the training/tactics forum? Perhaps other places as well?

[danej]

I am rather new to these forums. Have perhaps been active for 3 months or so. Similarly I am rather new to the game, have only played FM21 + 22 + some older versions 20 years ago.

 

So far my impression of the debate culture on these forums is rather mixed. There are a great deal of helpful, friendly and knowledgeable users here. So that makes it worthwhile asking questions here, in spite of quite a few bad apples in between.

 

Anyway, on the negative note I find - at least on the training/tactics forum which is almost exclusively where I have been active - that there is a semi-toxic debate culture. I am not saying this is the truth, it is just my subjective opinion. Once again, there is plenty of helpful and valuable input there. But on a regular basis there is also disrespectful comments. Where the message is sort of: Keep quiet, just play the game, figure things out for yourself, don't bother us with this question. I find this attitude weird. First of all I have double checked, and most of the time such comments seem unwarranted - it is difficult if not impossible to find high quality knowledge on the topic being adressed. And second, no matter what, why shouldn't it be ok to ask a question even if it has been discussed earlier. It seems weird to have a debate forum and then try to bully people from using it. I don't understand that certain people here can't just ignore posts that they subjectively find uninteresting and annoying. People should just ignore posts that they subjectively find uninteresting or annoying or whatever. They don't need to write a disrespectful comment to the person asking a question.

 

I fully understand and accept that my opinion is unimportant. I can't change the consensus here, and I won't try. If the majority of users think that things on the training/tactics forum are fine the way they are, I will live with that. But who knows, perhaps the majority agree with me to an extent. I can't see that this topic has been discussed before. Perhaps this post can be a step towards changing the debate culture on these forums to the better.

 

Once again I will point out that this is pretty much exclusively aimed towards the training/tactics forum. I barely know any of the other forums and hope they have a more healthy debate culture.

Edited August 6, 2022 by danej

[HUNT3R]

You've had good, and in some cases, fantastic advice in the threads you've created.

 

It's our job to moderate the forums. If there are issues, especially if it's against the house rules, please report them and it can be reviewed.

 

There is a wealth of knowledge on the forum and our forum members are quite knowledgeable as well. There's a lot of enjoyment to be had by just learning on your own and at your own pace. That's not to be dismissive of the questions you've had. It's great to be 'bitten by the bug' as much as you have been. FM does that. There will always be users willing to help out. Don't be too discouraged  

[podunkboy]

You think the Tactics sub-forum is toxic, you should have seen the LLM sub-forum...before it was NOPED out of existence. 

I generally stay out of Tactics largely because of the confrontational/adversarial nature of the discussion. There were some real great tacticians that used to post in there until they decided to post on their own blogs and leave the trolls to fight it out. Besides, I like to figure out my tactics on my own, feels more realistic. 

[danej]

15 hours ago, podunkboy said:

You think the Tactics sub-forum is toxic, you should have seen the LLM sub-forum...before it was NOPED out of existence. 

I generally stay out of Tactics largely because of the confrontational/adversarial nature of the discussion. There were some real great tacticians that used to post in there until they decided to post on their own blogs and leave the trolls to fight it out. Besides, I like to figure out my tactics on my own, feels more realistic. 

Haha, it sounds amusing. Although I guess wasn't very funny for you to in the middle of that. Yes, perhaps it was a good thing that that sub forum died.

 

Btw what does "noped out of existence" mean? I am just curiuos. I am not the most experienced internet user and there is a lot of internet slang that I don't know. I tried googling the phrase. Perhaps it means that people just stopped writing in that sub forum altogether?

 

I am actually concerned that this is excactly what is happening on a broader scale. I suspect that many people are much less active on these SI forums, or some of the sub forums at least, than they would actually like to be. Because they don't like the disrespectful tone that seems to appear at times. If that is the case I find it sad. There is nothing better than when people feel they have a forum filled with psychological safety so to speak (a great Amy Edmondson term). Where anyone, any post, any question is treated with respect and support, or at least not the opposite.

 

It is very interesting how you describe the tactics forum. I guess that is a positive thing as well. You seem to imply that many other sub forums have a more healthy culture. I am glad to hear that.

 

Which guys left to post on their own blogs? The name of the blogs? Sounds like people I would really like to follow.

[danej]

15 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

You've had good, and in some cases, fantastic advice in the threads you've created.

 

It's our job to moderate the forums. If there are issues, especially if it's against the house rules, please report them and it can be reviewed.

 

There is a wealth of knowledge on the forum and our forum members are quite knowledgeable as well. There's a lot of enjoyment to be had by just learning on your own and at your own pace. That's not to be dismissive of the questions you've had. It's great to be 'bitten by the bug' as much as you have been. FM does that. There will always be users willing to help out. Don't be too discouraged  

I pretty much agree with all of this. I don't hold any individuals accountable either. I understand that there is a fine line when it comes to moderating. I meant if more like an observation. And again, a subjective one, I could be right, I could be wrong, everyone has their own opinion.

 

Personally I hope that these forums, or the perhaps more dysfunctional of them, can over time evolve in a manner so that they have more psychological safety. Where any post, any comment, any question is treated with respect and support, or at least not the opposite. Culture can change if the majority wants it to. Perhaps my input can contribute. And if not that is fine as well I guess. Consensus rules, people get the debate culture that they want. Luckily noone is forced to be active on the forums if they are sceptical towards the debate culture.

 

And I do agree. There is a wealth of knowledge here. Much more than on any single web site or YouTube page etc. that I have found so far.

 

And of course you will be right eventually. If a forum user, generally or in certain contexts, finds it hard to obtain sufficiently helpful and supportive feedback, he will eventually have no choice but to figure things out on his own. And as you say, that isn't so bad either. FM truly is a wonderful game. Whatever happens on these forums is insignificant. Nothing can spoil the greaty joy of playing the game.

[podunkboy]

6 hours ago, danej said:

Btw what does "noped out of existence" mean? I am just curiuos. I am not the most experienced internet user and there is a lot of internet slang that I don't know. I tried googling the phrase. Perhaps it means that people just stopped writing in that sub forum altogether? [/quote]

The mods just decided that there wasn't enough activity in the LLM forum to justify keeping it active, so they either deleted it or archived it somewhere. Now, if you want to discuss Lower League management, you just do it here in the regular comments. 

[quote]

I am actually concerned that this is excactly what is happening on a broader scale. I suspect that many people are much less active on these SI forums, or some of the sub forums at least, than they would actually like to be. Because they don't like the disrespectful tone that seems to appear at times. If that is the case I find it sad. There is nothing better than when people feel they have a forum filled with psychological safety so to speak (a great Amy Edmondson term). Where anyone, any post, any question is treated with respect and support, or at least not the opposite.[/quote]

I just think it's a gradual move away from message boards in a very fragmented internet. There are so many other options: Facebook groups, Reddit, youtube/Twitch streams, Steam forums, etc. I still think this forum/board is the best overall place to learn and discuss FM, just because of it's history and resources. The mods run a fairly tight ship and you have the knowledge backing of SI here. 

[quote]

It is very interesting how you describe the tactics forum. I guess that is a positive thing as well. You seem to imply that many other sub forums have a more healthy culture. I am glad to hear that.

Which guys left to post on their own blogs? The name of the blogs? Sounds like people I would really like to follow.[/quote]

Again, I mostly stay out of Tactics, but back in the day I suspect some of they people were more interested in FM as a strictly academic exercise, I don't think they played FM for fun so much as a theoretical endeavor to build the perfect tactics - which I understand on some level, but I enjoy the story, the journey, the setbacks more than building one tactic and ruling the world with it. Most seasons I throw out what worked for me the last year and re-build according to changes in level and status and personnel. Probably why my manager profile always has a silly number for tactical consistency. 

 

Edited August 5, 2022 by podunkboy
meh, I mess up multiple quote posts...

[Garethjohn79]

The games is much better if you avoid the tactics forum, build your own. And if it upsets you better stay away from it.

It's far more rewarding. I quite like having my favourite tactic fail when I'm at a new club, means I need to work on another 

[glengarry224]

On 04/08/2022 at 11:38, danej said:

So far my impression of the debate culture on these forums is rather mixed. There are a great deal of helpful, friendly and knowledgeable users here. So that makes it worthwhile asking questions here, in spite of quite a few bad apples in between.

Agree.  And seen much the same across the internet.  I suspect that some are trolls, and enjoy disputing anyone and anything; some are defensive for various reasons; and some are just not good at expressing their views (e.g. my non-work emails and texts have a much better tone and are much better received if my girlfriend edits them!)  It's hard but I try to just try to read the useful information in those posts and ignore the rest.  I don't always succeed.  

I have enjoyed your questions, ideas and comments.  The forum has died down a lot for various reasons, including natural fatigue and top-posters going to other outlets.  I am no expert but have increased my posting because there are fewer contributors and because this forum helped me a lot and made the game even more fun, so I'm trying to pay it forwards.  Imperfectly.

[danej]

7 hours ago, Garethjohn79 said:

The games is much better if you avoid the tactics forum, build your own. And if it upsets you better stay away from it.

It's far more rewarding. I quite like having my favourite tactic fail when I'm at a new club, means I need to work on another 

Hehe. I suspect that you are right. I actually never cared one inch about tactics. I have never used anything else than the preset tactics in-game, mostly the preset 4-2-3-1 Gegenpress. And I have never missed doing more fancy tactical stuff either, that just isn't for me.

 

What I have used the tactics/training forum for is purely training and various forms of strategic advice. At times comments there have been slightly disrespectful. But overall, it has never been outright terrible. And importantly, more often than not I have also been given incredibly valuable advice and input, not least from @herne79. And actually @glengarry224 who posted above I see. I rate these guys and others very highly.

 

So it is a mixed bag. But definitely a lot of good in the bag. Perhaps even mostly good.

 

But still. I think various sub forums here might have room for improvement when it comes to healthy, respectful debate culture. Perhaps a rule should be added that everyone has to read Amy Edmondson's book "Psychological Safety" before they are allowed to post anything hehe.

 

In any case, I actually do think that it is possible to change culture here for the better. And I find the discussion on this thread encouraging. If people here want to, we can start nudging each other in a slightly different way. Encouraging more/even more warm, respectful, supportive interaction and less of the opposite. I do get a feeling that many in here actually would like to contribute to such a change. And that it is constructive to have a discussion such as this. To serve as a reminder of how we would like to influence the debate.

 

I think most of us have good and bad in our personalitites. And I am certainly very far from perfect myself, both on these forums and in general. In any case, I think that we do sometimes change for the better. That we sometimes manage to change culture to the better. When we become aware that change would be fruitful. When we become highly motivated to make a change.

 

I guess that when I started this thead and continue to comment on it (and many other threads) it is also because I love FM. And I really care about these forums. They offer so much. And they probably have potential to be even more valuable than they already are.

[danej]

8 hours ago, glengarry224 said:

Agree.  And seen much the same across the internet.  I suspect that some are trolls, and enjoy disputing anyone and anything; some are defensive for various reasons; and some are just not good at expressing their views (e.g. my non-work emails and texts have a much better tone and are much better received if my girlfriend edits them!)  It's hard but I try to just try to read the useful information in those posts and ignore the rest.  I don't always succeed.  

I have enjoyed your questions, ideas and comments.  The forum has died down a lot for various reasons, including natural fatigue and top-posters going to other outlets.  I am no expert but have increased my posting because there are fewer contributors and because this forum helped me a lot and made the game even more fun, so I'm trying to pay it forwards.  Imperfectly.

He, the girlfriend comment is hilarious. It is the same for me. As Irvin Yalom says in one of his books, he expresses gratitude towards his wife who elevates and civilises him, something like that. And it is true for me as well.

 

It is extremely interesting, and concerning at the same time, what you write about the forum having died down and that many top-posters have left. I would think that it is crucial to find out why this has happened. Someone should talk to these top-posters. Find out what it would take for them to come back. I suspect that a sometimes slightly toxic culture is part of why they left. And that some of them could be persuaded to give the forum a second chance if we manage to improve the culture a bit. That would be wonderful.

 

For all I know this forum is still the best one out there, even if it might have been better back in the day. I imagine that it would be a good thing to make an effort to strengthen this forum. Not least to try and strenghten the healthy parts of culture here. Culture is essential for success.

Edited August 6, 2022 by danej

[XaW]

@danej - We mods try to handle each situation that happens, and try to monitor all subforums here to make sure it's a nice place for everyone. Some times we don't pick up things fast enough, and other times we might let something slide that should be hidden, but we also don't want to discourage a healthy debate, even if it gets slightly heated. People are allowed to disagree, and if we had to strike down on everyone who was wrong, well, we'd have a full time job on our hands! I will add here that we mods are doing this voluntarily and don't get payed for it. We are regular users who have been around for a long time and done our best to help out for a long time, and SI have asked us to help out. So if we take too long, or misunderstand a discussion or something else, it's never done from malice. We do have our day jobs and families, so being here is done on our own time, just the same as everyone else here.

We are more often accused of "over policing" the forums rather than let toxic comments stay, so guess you can't ever please everyone. What I will say though, is that if you ever get or see comments or messages you think are unacceptable (based on the house rules, and quite frankly common sense), then please do report them to us, and someone should at the very least have a look as soon as possible, and take action if necessary.

[Jack722]

I personally haven't experienced any toxicity here. In fact, I've come across other interent FM forums and this is really the only one that I reguarly post on and come back to.

Some of the communities I've seen, though, are incredibly toxic. I think we're actually quite lucky here, as the majority are very respectuful.

Edited August 6, 2022 by Jack722

[danej]

8 hours ago, XaW said:

@danej - We mods try to handle each situation that happens, and try to monitor all subforums here to make sure it's a nice place for everyone. Some times we don't pick up things fast enough, and other times we might let something slide that should be hidden, but we also don't want to discourage a healthy debate, even if it gets slightly heated. People are allowed to disagree, and if we had to strike down on everyone who was wrong, well, we'd have a full time job on our hands! I will add here that we mods are doing this voluntarily and don't get payed for it. We are regular users who have been around for a long time and done our best to help out for a long time, and SI have asked us to help out. So if we take too long, or misunderstand a discussion or something else, it's never done from malice. We do have our day jobs and families, so being here is done on our own time, just the same as everyone else here.

We are more often accused of "over policing" the forums rather than let toxic comments stay, so guess you can't ever please everyone. What I will say though, is that if you ever get or see comments or messages you think are unacceptable (based on the house rules, and quite frankly common sense), then please do report them to us, and someone should at the very least have a look as soon as possible, and take action if necessary.

I was never thinking that mods deserved any special blame. I understand that moderating is probably an impossible balance to an extent. In any case it was more a subjective observation regarding the debate culture.

 

I have also been thinking, as you and others perhaps imply, that perhaps part is on me and my subjective taste. I don't like the debate culture on the internet in general and rarely take part in any of it. I suspect that @Jack722 is right and that most places might be worse.

Perhaps some of this is just very difficult to deal with. It reminds me, I once read that people on average are less polite and more toxic when writing anonymously with people the don't know well. The opposite of face to face contact. Actually, how could it be any differently. The lack of quality interacting that comes with writing between strangers or semi-strangers makes quite a few of us behave less politely than we would otherwise have done. Just common sense I guess.

 

Perhaps it is like a few seem to suggest, that one could also be grateful that is isn't much worse which could easliy be the case. I don't know.

 

In any case, for me personally it has been positive to make this thread and put these thoughts out in the open. Mixed response, but in any case quite a bit of support and understanding. And a positive thing is that the vast majority seem to agree that we should have a rather polity debate culture here. Toxic behavour might not be allowed to get too much out of hand. Which makes it easier to shrug off a bad experience now and then.

 

For me personally my experience on the forums have been more positive than negative. I don't see myself quitting the forums any time soon. Personally I would like a harsher stance towards disrespectful behavior, but I respect that the majority might see it differently. And I see the dilemma you describe. In any case it is not a serious problem, the current status is good enough for me. Perhaps this is as good as it gets on an online anonymous forum.

 

Btw you could make an occasional poll to see what people prefer. Not just for active users of these forum but send the poll to any steam account that purchased FM22 for example. Ask people what kind of culture they prefer, what would make people use these forums. It doesn't matter what I or any other individual think. It doesn't even matter what the majority on this forum thinks. Perhaps the most interesting would be to find out the consensus of potential forum users in case a certain forum culture was established. Culture creates a selective crowd. Perhaps the crowd who uses this forum would be different if culture was different.

 

I know I am inconsistent here. I guess I just don't know what to think, I see different perspectives. I personally think that there is room for improvement with the current culture. But I don't know whether it is a significant or insignificant problem. And I don't know how easy it would be to change things even if people wanted to.

 

I am glad this forum exists though. Other forums I have tried have for me subjectively been pretty much totally useless. This forum certainly has a lot of quality even if it might not be perfect.

 

It certainly is a lot better than what I experienced when I played World of Tanks some years ago. An aggressive game attracts aggressive people I guess, or at least brings out the worst.

[glengarry224]

14 hours ago, danej said:

It is extremely interesting, and concerning at the same time, what you write about the forum having died down and that many top-posters have left. I would think that it is crucial to find out why this has happened.

It's natural.  People get engaged with something and then get bored with it or get busy with other things.  Also, remember that 2020-2021 was an unusual time where we all had a lot of time sitting home.  Alone.  Bored.

[FrazT]

@danejIt is good that you have brought up and expressed your perceptions but as a user who has been around this forum since its start in 2000, I can safely say that it's culture today is certainly no worse that it has been before and in my view is actually way better in many ways.  What you are noting is the rise of internet and social media use and anonymous keyboard warriors who use the internet negatively because they think that they can get away with it.

There are many thousands of active users who use this forum and you are bound to have some discussion, argument and dispute under certain circumstances and all users have to be able to debate without resorting to escalation to personal levels and be able to acknowledge points of view that differ from their own without feeling that it is getting personal.  A slightly thicker skin than normal is needed for all regular users

My advice to all users has always been that if another user is annoying you, just ignore him/her or put them on your ignore list and move on.  The Mod team is here to try and ensure that the forums run smoothly for all users and will always watch and react to reports where users go outside the acceptable guidelines but all users have to accept that there will not always be agreement and differing opinions are part of the discussion process and not necessarily deemed to be personal or worthy of forum discipline.

Like most forums, the good users massively outnumber the bad ones so continue to get the best out of this forum and enjoy the game.

[danej]

9 hours ago, glengarry224 said:

It's natural.  People get engaged with something and then get bored with it or get busy with other things.  Also, remember that 2020-2021 was an unusual time where we all had a lot of time sitting home.  Alone.  Bored.

Ah. Yeah it makes sense if you mean now compared to 2020-21. I thought you meant that forum activty had steadily diminished over many years. Perhaps it is not so bad then.

[danej]

9 hours ago, FrazT said:

There are many thousands of active users who use this forum and you are bound to have some discussion, argument and dispute under certain circumstances and all users have to be able to debate without resorting to escalation to personal levels and be able to acknowledge points of view that differ from their own without feeling that it is getting personal.  A slightly thicker skin than normal is needed for all regular users

My advice to all users has always been that if another user is annoying you, just ignore him/her or put them on your ignore list and move on.  The Mod team is here to try and ensure that the forums run smoothly for all users and will always watch and react to reports where users go outside the acceptable guidelines but all users have to accept that there will not always be agreement and differing opinions are part of the discussion process and not necessarily deemed to be personal or worthy of forum discipline.

Like most forums, the good users massively outnumber the bad ones so continue to get the best out of this forum and enjoy the game.

I think there is a lot of truth in this, thanks for sharing. I think that it might be a good idea for me personally to aim to develop a slightly thicker skin. Especially on online forums like here, and perhaps to a slight extent also IRL but that is another issue.

 

I also agree with the "ignore user" idea. Actually I recently did so for the first time with a guy I thought was completely out of line. That incident actually turned out to be a positive one btw. I got quite a bit of support on that incident (other users commenting the specific post). I would imagine that the respective user eventually got a warning from the mods.

 

As you imply, when I evaluate now I think that the vast majority of users here seem like good people. Helpful, respectful, supporting. And futhermore, I feel like there are some good people here who have some humility themselves, who are open to suggestions towards a slight change in behavior, toning up the supporting and respectful aspects. People who interact well. So there is much good stuff here.

[vikeologist]

There are areas of the game that people feel really strongly about and if you challenge their beliefs they will kick back. I think that many people on here feel that they are quite knowledgeable about areas of the game. Me too, although not the tactics side.

Forums used to be a big thing on the internet, but I guess now this is the only forum I really partake in, (apart from lately the WAGMI / Crawley Town Discord which is comedy gold).

I try to avoid certain parts of the forum, (because I wouldn't even grant the semi element of its toxicity) and parts of it I love. 'Ignoring' posters you can ignore is definitely a good idea, not least because it quickly renders toxic hotspots totally unreadable, and you can also mute words.

But with tactics, it's tricky, because for every issue there is an objective truth, because we're talking about computer code. Sometimes people think they know the objective truth because they've spent hundreds (if not thousands) of hours analysing that area of the game, and SI obviously sometimes don't show all their hands because they want to retain the illusion of reality for immersion purposes. Sometimes people say, SI have given the answer to this question countless times, and if they believe that, rightly or wrongly, they're not going to budge from their belief because some rando YouTuber has posted a video of an 'experiment'.

There's also always a real possibility of being misunderstood. I 'run' a little thread elsewhere, and I'm sure there are times when I've inadvertently posted something that was wrongly perceived. I do worry about it, but at the same time, I probably spend too much time editing posts trying to avoid annoying people. None of us really understand our own communication flaws. 

I don't know about developing a thicker skin though. People should all try their best to be respectful, and if other posters aren't, then at some point you have to consider whether it's worth tolerating it. There is a culture here, toxic or not.

 

[danej]

On 07/08/2022 at 10:17, vikeologist said:

There are areas of the game that people feel really strongly about and if you challenge their beliefs they will kick back. I think that many people on here feel that they are quite knowledgeable about areas of the game. Me too, although not the tactics side.

Forums used to be a big thing on the internet, but I guess now this is the only forum I really partake in, (apart from lately the WAGMI / Crawley Town Discord which is comedy gold).

I try to avoid certain parts of the forum, (because I wouldn't even grant the semi element of its toxicity) and parts of it I love. 'Ignoring' posters you can ignore is definitely a good idea, not least because it quickly renders toxic hotspots totally unreadable, and you can also mute words.

But with tactics, it's tricky, because for every issue there is an objective truth, because we're talking about computer code. Sometimes people think they know the objective truth because they've spent hundreds (if not thousands) of hours analysing that area of the game, and SI obviously sometimes don't show all their hands because they want to retain the illusion of reality for immersion purposes. Sometimes people say, SI have given the answer to this question countless times, and if they believe that, rightly or wrongly, they're not going to budge from their belief because some rando YouTuber has posted a video of an 'experiment'.

There's also always a real possibility of being misunderstood. I 'run' a little thread elsewhere, and I'm sure there are times when I've inadvertently posted something that was wrongly perceived. I do worry about it, but at the same time, I probably spend too much time editing posts trying to avoid annoying people. None of us really understand our own communication flaws. 

I don't know about developing a thicker skin though. People should all try their best to be respectful, and if other posters aren't, then at some point you have to consider whether it's worth tolerating it. There is a culture here, toxic or not.

 

As mentioned above I have actually never posted anything regarding tactics. Tactics doesn't interest me. I have usually posted about training and various strategic aspects of the game.

 

Btw the problems I have noticed (not just personally but in other peoples posts as well) is not that "narcissitic" FM'ers get provoked and kicked back if their truths are challenges. It is more that people appear somewhat unwilling to give feedback on certain questions. I don't see that as a problem in itself, of course everyone has the right to ignore posts that he finds uninteresting. The weird part is that there seems to be a culture, at least to a mild extent, where a few people write something disrespectful to the person asking a question (often somewhat subtly, mildly, but still disrespectful). Bascially saying something like: This is a dumb/boring/uninteresting question, don't waste our time with this BS. Keep quiet and play the game.

 

Anyway, as others have suggested above, perhaps it isn't so bad. And there are ways to deal with it as you also say. I could put certain users on the ignore list, grow a slightly thicker skin, tone down my activity on certain sub forums etc.

 

I guess some of this is also a general thing and about me. I don't like how people behave on the internet. Too much toxicity, disrespectful behavor. These forums might be better than most places. I don't know, I am not very active on the internet in general, excactly because I don't like how people behave there.

 

And you are so right - written communication is often a very poor alternative to face to face discussion. You can't express yourself well in writing. So misunderstandings are bound to happen all the time.