FM23 Headline Features Revealed

[themadsheep2001]

23 minutes ago, andu1 said:

The AI changes seem important  but without any comparison with the previous versions how will we know what's changed? Will the AI be better at using formations? will they not be obsessed with 4-2-3-1 Wide like in the previous versions?

Will they be able to use another formation if what's not  in their pref list is not cutting it? Will they adapt to a trending style over time?

Any changes to AI squad building?
 

If they put so much work in AI , why not delve into it a bit more ?

The first piece was good on it. I wonder if it needs a second? I'll ask the question 

[aj6658]

15 minutes ago, DP said:

I would say they are working on a brand new engine behind the scenes - graphically and mechanically - so are reluctant to change too much in the match experience as it’s ‘waste’. Only explanation I can see. 

Im 100% with this line of thought but the question is when? If FM24 is the same sort of small update it would be quite frustrating for the community if they dont announce some sort of timeline.

Feel like it would be introduced with Womens football but they only started talking about it last year (https://www.footballmanager.com/news/how-were-introducing-womens-football-football-manager)

Maybe they will bring in the new engine and then bring in Womens football.

 

 

 

 

[_mxrky]

The tactics creator is about 6 years behind football tactics evolution. That’s ignoring everything in relation to the graphics and the match engine 

Edited October 14, 2022 by _mxrky

[andu1]

22 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

The first piece was good on it. I wonder if it needs a second? I'll ask the question 

Are you referring to the blog post from last week? If so, i would have liked if they added a little more detail about the AI managers decision making. Like they explained for example how the Advanced playmaker stays further forward in a 4-3-3.

[KeiranShikari]

To be honest if the manager AI thing is anywhere near good as it sounds then it will be the biggest change to game in forever. That and the ability to actually play defensive football consistently. 

[Malicious Penguin]

15 hours ago, orlyzao said:

This is embarrassing. 

In fact, the entire marketing behind FM23 is. 

There's no chance in hell I'm buying the full fat game, and I'll use an Apple Arcade trial to test out FM Touch/Xbox Edition/Console Edition/Classic/Whatever it's called this year. If that's a monstrosity (has all the extra stats/data in it), I'm unfortunately out.

The reason I'm so annoyed is I grew up adoring this game. I played on it for hours on end to a point where my Mum threatened to break the CM CD because how obsessed I was with it.
 

I get I'm probably not a target audience now (38 year old with not masses of free time), but the people who used to "joke" about it being a spreadsheet are increasingly right.
 

And Excel probably has graphics on a par with this (exaggerated for effect).

Edited October 14, 2022 by Malicious Penguin

[el_manayer]

15 hours ago, orlyzao said:

This looks like a joke

[Rashidi]

19 hours ago, Ferocious289 said:

The M.E looks exactly the same. Can't believe there has been no artwork improvement to the graphics at the very least, the same washed up stadiums,lighting and pitches. Unbelievable

While i do agree about the artwork, I can't agree with you about the match engine. A cursory look at the match engine in a features video is hardly enough for anyone to draw definitive conclusions from. The amount of work that goes into the match engine is mind boggling.  Every year millions of lines of code are either written afresh or updated. And this year we have several new features in the match engine, that require the developers to code how decision making will impact the choice of how a team plays the offside trap within a system that has elected to turn on the team instruction "hold defensive line". And that is just one element in a complicated puzzle they need to balance to produce a realistic simulation of world football.  And that I think will never be perfect.

Its not simple. To say it "looks exactly the same" is an insult to all the developers who work hard on it and to anyone else who remotely has invested time into making it work.  

[aj6658]

Ive been quite negative and a harsh critique of SI but i will say that the ME is an incredibly complicated piece of tech. Can you imagine a DM for example, when do they press, whats the probability a pass works, do they have the vision to see a player, where they should stand, how do reactions come into it e.c.t Thats a tiny percentage of what a player needs to think about. Then imagine that for all the players and then replicate that for all games simulated in the back ground to have a realistic conclusion. 

This is why i get a bit hot on things like character customisation. There is always a budget and i will always want an additional ME/ AI employee than 4 UI design sort of employees. There is so much more scope to improve the ME 

[Artin]

1 hour ago, _mxrky said:

The tactics creator is about 6 years behind football tactics evolution. That’s ignoring everything in relation to the graphics and the match engine 

yes but did you see the new facegen engine miles is so happy about on twitter???

[KillYourIdols]

   I WANT THE RETURN OF

[Ferocious289]

37 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

While i do agree about the artwork, I can't agree with you about the match engine. A cursory look at the match engine in a features video is hardly enough for anyone to draw definitive conclusions from. The amount of work that goes into the match engine is mind boggling.  Every year millions of lines of code are either written afresh or updated. And this year we have several new features in the match engine, that require the developers to code how decision making will impact the choice of how a team plays the offside trap within a system that has elected to turn on the team instruction "hold defensive line". And that is just one element in a complicated puzzle they need to balance to produce a realistic simulation of world football.  And that I think will never be perfect.

Its not simple. To say it "looks exactly the same" is an insult to all the developers who work hard on it and to anyone else who remotely has invested time into making it work.  

 

I'm watching videos of past ME graphics from football manager 20 to football manager 22 and honestly can't tell which game is what. I'm not talking about animinations or how players deliver their roles, I'm talking about asthetics to the pitch, player model, stadium and crowd. Look at the pictures below from fm20, fm21 and fm22 and tell me with a straight face that if there's big difference.

Fm20

FM21

FM22

[Rashidi]

1 minute ago, Ferocious289 said:

I'm watching videos of past ME graphics from football manager 20 to football manager 22 and honestly can't tell which game is what. I'm not talking about animinations or how players deliver their roles, I'm talking about asthetics to the pitch, player model, stadium and crowd. Look at the pictures below from fm20, fm21 and fm22 and tell me with a straight face that if there's big difference.

you are talking about aesthetics I am talking about the match engine, these are two distinctly different things

[Dagenham_Dave]

How many times do people need to be told that the match engine and the graphics engine are two completely different things?

[Ferocious289]

1 minute ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

How many times do people need to be told that the match engine and the graphics engine are two completely different things?

I think people know the difference between between m.e and graphics. My post specifically mentioned that I saw no difference in the artwork of the graphics but sometimes to save time just we include M.E.

I mean you can't seriously believe I was making judgement on how the game played when it's not even out yet.

[Ferocious289]

7 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

you are talking about aesthetics I am talking about the match engine, these are two distinctly different things

Well I wasn't talking about the match engine since no one knows how it's played as the game isn't out. In hindsight I should have clarified my post and not mentioned M.E but I thought it was clear I was talking about the graphics

[Ferocious289]

42 minutes ago, Ferocious289 said:

 

I'm watching videos of past ME graphics from football manager 20 to football manager 22 and honestly can't tell which game is what. I'm not talking about animinations or how players deliver their roles, I'm talking about asthetics to the pitch, player model, stadium and crowd. Look at the pictures below from fm20, fm21 and fm22 and tell me with a straight face that if there's big difference.

Fm20

FM21

FM22

Edit -  And here is fm23 graphics

 

[KeiranShikari]

Aesthetically the stadiums, crowds, pitches and lighting looked better a decade ago. Obviously the animation part of the graphics engine is is miles better.

The match engine feels better than it did 3 years ago, not something you're going to see from screenshots.

[grade]

5 hours ago, forameuss said:

This annoys me too.  I've no idea why there seems a persistence on adding information to various social media accounts and blogs exclusively, or to long-form youtube videos, and neglect to post an actual readable version on their own official forums.  I've no real interest either on signing up to another website just to find out something I'll find out for myself in a few weeks anyway.

I have been saying this for years... yet, here we are

3 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

They've hired more people than ever in the last 2 years and the ME/AI team is the biggest it's ever been. Don't think resources on that front is something to worry about. If people don't care/like something that's absolutely upto them. But the resources argument isn't really here or there. Indeed we already know they are investing heavily and gearing up for women's football being added, and a lot of the benefits of that can also go into the men's game too. 

I don't doubt, that isn't true... but that line has been said for few years now. I can bet you in every year they hired more people and how they moved the HQ to accomodate more people. But seeing the evolution of the graphics of this game, don't expect much of revolution from Women's football. I'm excited to women's football, not with what it will bring... it simply a new feature in concept of that word. What we had these last few years were upgrades, with few exceptions that were features, but probably a handfull of them.

3 hours ago, aj6658 said:

Ive seen people ask for the ability to spend their in game salary. Asking for a feature when graphically the game cannot show it is not a question of me not liking something, its just plain crazy to put it lightly. 

SI knows this isnt going to sell units. Its there to make blogs look bigger. To make it look like each iteration has more changes than the last. 

If we are going on what people requested, why not put the effort in redesigning the stadiums than your own character since we see significantly more of that ? Would have a much greater impact 

I wouldn't mind spending your in game salary, if that effected your personality in game, like you buy expensive house, car or watch, your more metaralistic or exhibitionist or if you have expensive parties every week, your more of playboy, but if you buy a modest car, you are more inclined to being down to earth. What type of personality will affect how your avatar approaches players, agents and what not.That said, this is among the lowest priorities to add to the game, there are far more important stuff to improve.

1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

While i do agree about the artwork, I can't agree with you about the match engine. A cursory look at the match engine in a features video is hardly enough for anyone to draw definitive conclusions from. The amount of work that goes into the match engine is mind boggling.  Every year millions of lines of code are either written afresh or updated. And this year we have several new features in the match engine, that require the developers to code how decision making will impact the choice of how a team plays the offside trap within a system that has elected to turn on the team instruction "hold defensive line". And that is just one element in a complicated puzzle they need to balance to produce a realistic simulation of world football.  And that I think will never be perfect.

Its not simple. To say it "looks exactly the same" is an insult to all the developers who work hard on it and to anyone else who remotely has invested time into making it work.  

Thanks for the information. But what makes me disappointed is that you a moderator, has to post this and not a dev.

Edited October 14, 2022 by grade

[Volband]

1 hour ago, Ferocious289 said:

 

I'm watching videos of past ME graphics from football manager 20 to football manager 22 and honestly can't tell which game is what. I'm not talking about animinations or how players deliver their roles, I'm talking about asthetics to the pitch, player model, stadium and crowd. Look at the pictures below from fm20, fm21 and fm22 and tell me with a straight face that if there's big difference.

Fm20

FM21

FM22

21 and 22 (and 23 from what I've seen) were similar, but fm20 was fugly because of the oversaturation

[Rashidi]

13 minutes ago, grade said:

Thanks for the information. But what makes me disappointed is that you a moderator, has to post this and not a dev

Try to understand, at this point of the development cycle, the devs can't be coming here to respond to queries. They respond to them earlier or after, but this period is at least 2 weeks from the launch of beta. They won't have the bandwidth to respond. And if they respond to one, then they need to respond to another, taking precious time away from the work that needs to be done for FM23.

[Federico]

7 minuti fa, Rashidi ha scritto:

Try to understand, at this point of the development cycle, the devs can't be coming here to respond to queries. They respond to them earlier or after, but this period is at least 2 weeks from the launch of beta. They won't have the bandwidth to respond. And if they respond to one, then they need to respond to another, taking precious time away from the work that needs to be done for FM23.

I think that the hardest work is behind the curtain, and the most of people judges the game on what they see. And what they see is a game that looks quite much the same since 4-5 years. Then we can discuss how much work it took to refine a role, how much time required to implement an animation and how much struggle it needed to make defensive shape and counter realistics. Unfortunately all these refinements aren't so easy to spot to everyone and the communication from SI is not that clear and plain to explain how much they made. Which is a kind of own-goal, but that's my opinion.

I understand devs not coming here for various reasons, devs have to do their work and come here occasionally - if they wish to do so. I think though that a big studio as SI is could find a role to be dedicated to the forum.

[aj6658]

28 minutes ago, grade said:

I wouldn't mind spending your in game salary, if that effected your personality in game, like you buy expensive house, car or watch, your more metaralistic or exhibitionist or if you have expensive parties every week, your more of playboy, but if you buy a modest car, you are more inclined to being down to earth. What type of personality will affect how your avatar approaches players, agents and what not.That said, this is among the lowest priorities to add to the game, there are far more important stuff to improve.

I have never understood this. Its football manager. Why add anything that is not focused on football?  What does it add to the game. Oh i bought an expensive house - is it just a button or do we get to see the house? its one of those ideas that sounds good but in reality its awful (but in this case its sounds awful to begin with)

Why not add the ability to drive your flash car to the stadium or have control over the menu in the 

[FelixForte]

There is a lot of frustration in the community that a lot of features that were asked for are not here. For instance:

• International management, especially with the World Cup so close to the release of the game
• Set piece UI, which has been broken for years
• Better graphic engine, which looks like its from early 2000s. I'm not asking for FIFA like features, but let's not forget that FIFA07 from 15 years ago looked much better in terms of graphics (see below). At this point in time, I imagine it's not even that expensive to make a decent looking game.

I think this frustration is only being exacerbated by the blogs and videos. There are features which are quite small (e.g. a timeline which you see once a season or backend fixes to AI management) being announced as if they are massive updates to the game. If SI would have said 'Hey, we're working on some bigger features but they're multi year projects so unfortunately this year updates have been a bit more limited, game will now cost 25 quid', I would have understood and bought the game out of support, because the game is still amazing and we all want it to continue developing. Rather, they act like we're all stupid and that these small immersion tweaks will indeed make the game significantly different from the previous. After the last two years I'm starting to think that as long as SI adds something to the bar on the left (Squad Planner, Analytics), it's sufficient. And yes, the community will be vocal if you don't present significant upgrades but do talk about stuff like:

• Manager accessoires and scarfs which are not shown in game
• Badges on kits which are not visible at all because your graphic engine is still using stick figures
• Relabelling certain tactical instructions
• Overhauling hairstyles and regen faces, while an initiative from the community called NewGan has already shown that it could be much much better.

The issue is not that small features are being announced in a blog post. If there had been significant other overhauls (even if just one of the three mentioned above), everybody would have been pleased with reading about further immersion / quality of life features. But the combination of 1) there not being significant features, 2) SI acting like there are and 3) presenting minute features as meaningful upgrades rightfully sparks frustration.

Edited October 14, 2022 by FelixForte

[Tonton_Zola]

4 hours ago, DP said:

I would say they are working on a brand new engine behind the scenes - graphically and mechanically - so are reluctant to change too much in the match experience as it’s ‘waste’. Only explanation I can see. 

I fear this is wishful thinking. Does anybody have any evidence of this?

plus, the low res poorly scaled brick wall thing in the corner that the earlier poster mentioned? Surely this is a 60 minute job? Probably less? Why wouldn’t you just tidy it up? I am lost.

[Tonton_Zola]

Just now, Tonton_Zola said:

I fear this is wishful thinking. Does anybody have any evidence of this?

plus, the low res poorly scaled brick wall thing in the corner that the earlier poster mentioned? Surely this is a 60 minute job? Probably less? Why wouldn’t you just tidy it up? I am lost.

Creating 4 or 5 stadium typologies with 3 x size scales/levels…? Then binding that into the database (e.g Wembley = bowl x size 3, Selhurst park = trad Northern European box x2)?

again, surely this is a week’s work no? 
 

I mean - honestly - I think I could do it in an afternoon but still! I mean, for goodness sake it doesn’t affect the pitch / AI so you could even just bloody well commission an illustrator and render it? 

It’s mystifying to me. Can anybody explain.

[DP]

Just now, Tonton_Zola said:

I fear this is wishful thinking. Does anybody have any evidence of this?

plus, the low res poorly scaled brick wall thing in the corner that the earlier poster mentioned? Surely this is a 60 minute job? Probably less? Why wouldn’t you just tidy it up? I am lost.

Some of their job ads talk about a ‘big technology transition’ working towards the ‘next generation of football manager’ whilst ‘still supporting existing technology in a transition period’. 
 

That sounds like it’s quite obvious there are things going on behind the scenes that are just not ready to release yet. It’s clear the current ME is the existing, or legacy, technology they’re talking about. 

[BuzzR]

9 minutes ago, FelixForte said:

There is a lot of frustration in the community that a lot of features that were asked for are not here. For instance:

• International management, especially with the World Cup so close to the release of the game
• Set piece UI, which has been broken for years
• Better graphic engine, which looks like its from early 2000s. I'm not asking for FIFA like features, but let's not forget that FIFA07 from 15 years ago looked much better in terms of graphics (see below). At this point in time, I imagine it's not even that expensive to make a decent looking game.

I think this frustration is only being exacerbated by the blogs and videos. There are features which are quite small (e.g. a timeline which you see once a season or backend fixes to AI management) being announced as if they are massive updates to the game. If SI would have said 'Hey, we're working on some bigger features but they're multi year projects so unfortunately this year updates have been a bit more limited, game will now cost 25 quid', I would have understood and bought the game out of support, because the game is still amazing and we all want it to continue developing. Rather, they act like we're all stupid and that these small immersion tweaks will indeed make the game significantly different from the previous. After the last two years I'm starting to think that as long as SI adds something to the bar on the left (Squad Planner, Analytics), it's sufficient. And yes, the community will be vocal if you don't present significant upgrades but do talk about stuff like:

• Manager accessoires and scarfs which are not shown in game
• Badges on kits which are not visible at all because your graphic engine is still using stick figures
• Relabelling certain tactical instructions
• Overhauling hairstyles and regen faces, while an initiative from the community called NewGan has already shown that it could be much much better.

The issue is not that small features are being announced in a blog post. If there had been significant other overhauls (even if just one of the three mentioned above), everybody would have been pleased with reading about further immersion / quality of life features. But the combination of 1) there not being significant features, 2) SI acting like there are and 3) presenting minute features as meaningful upgrades rightfully sparks frustration.

 

Very well said.

Parading small features and meaningless add-ons while ignoring stringent, meaningful issues raised year after year by the community, will only bring frustration and will harden the feeling of disconnect between the company and the fans.

The road map for this product is completely unknown to us.. we are not entitled to know it, but it will help us and them to know it. Maybe be a part of it. 

 

[aj6658]

5 minutes ago, DP said:

Some of their job ads talk about a ‘big technology transition’ working towards the ‘next generation of football manager’ whilst ‘still supporting existing technology in a transition period’. 
 

That sounds like it’s quite obvious there are things going on behind the scenes that are just not ready to release yet. It’s clear the current ME is the existing, or legacy, technology they’re talking about. 

Good find - the Tech producer role out lines it clear as day 

Question is when will it be seen. This year features were quite dry in terms of new features and I think Fm24 will be too soon. Potentially FM25 is when we see a big change.

[GreenTriangle]

4 hours ago, PigeonStrangler said:

I actually purchased the F1 Manager game.  Graphically it’s fantastic.  Most of the joy people have with these simulation games comes from watching it everything you’ve done play out.  We want to see the races, the city streets, the baseball fields, the football pitches, etc.  These should be given the highest possible priority.

I find it hard to believe that SI can’t provide us with a better match engine that this.  FIFA’s games looked better 10 years ago.  So what is happening?

Am I supposed to understand that 4 out of 10 players got bored (after only a few weeks) of a graphically fantastic game ? It seems to be logical, considering the fact that fans of advanced graphics do not have much patience. It remains to be seen if they would be attracted to a game (FM) in which, however, patience is strictly necessary.

[grade]

8 minutes ago, GreenTriangle said:

Am I supposed to understand that 4 out of 10 players got bored (after only a few weeks) of a graphically fantastic game ? It seems to be logical, considering the fact that fans of advanced graphics do not have much patience. It remains to be seen if they would be attracted to a game (FM) in which, however, patience is strictly necessary.

I think you are not considering that already exists a very good game, called Motorsport Manager, that directly competes with F1 Manager.

[Tonton_Zola]

34 minutes ago, GreenTriangle said:

Am I supposed to understand that 4 out of 10 players got bored (after only a few weeks) of a graphically fantastic game ? It seems to be logical, considering the fact that fans of advanced graphics do not have much patience. It remains to be seen if they would be attracted to a game (FM) in which, however, patience is strictly necessary.

Risks being a little binary to say people who like decent graphics have no patience.

Smart visuals and strategic depth need not be opposite ends of the spectrum, or mutually exclusive…

We are asking for an AND, not an OR.

[GreenTriangle]

29 minutes ago, grade said:

I think you are not considering that already exists a very good game, called Motorsport Manager, that directly competes with F1 Manager.

Are you saying that players who prefer games with very good graphics are tempted to "migrate" more quickly from one game to another ? Well, the gaming market is full of games having very good graphics.

[(sic)]

39 minutes ago, GreenTriangle said:

Am I supposed to understand that 4 out of 10 players got bored (after only a few weeks) of a graphically fantastic game ? It seems to be logical, considering the fact that fans of advanced graphics do not have much patience. It remains to be seen if they would be attracted to a game (FM) in which, however, patience is strictly necessary.

Graphics by themselves don't mean much if you don't have great gameplay, systems, etc. to go with them. FM already has all of those things, except graphics. 

Graphics will only help with immersion, and enjoyment of the game, while also potentially attracting new players. 

You can't solely rely on the "older" audience for that long, you also have to attract the younger audience in some ways. In 2022 it's shocking how bad this game looks in terms of graphics. I keep repeating this point, but it's on the level of games that came out 10-20 years ago. Upgrading graphics will definitely attract younger audience, especially some FIFA players who are more interested in management side of things.

[gunner86]

48 minutes ago, GreenTriangle said:

Am I supposed to understand that 4 out of 10 players got bored (after only a few weeks) of a graphically fantastic game ? It seems to be logical, considering the fact that fans of advanced graphics do not have much patience. It remains to be seen if they would be attracted to a game (FM) in which, however, patience is strictly necessary.

It is graphically very good (I have it on Series X). The problem for me is that to go through a race weekend takes approx 90 mins. So doing one is a time commitment. It’s not like FM where you can pick it up, play a 10ish minute match and put it down again. That’s why I’ve not played F1M for a couple of weeks. 

 

36 minutes ago, grade said:

I think you are not considering that already exists a very good game, called Motorsport Manager, that directly competes with F1 Manager.

Motorsport manager came out in 2016, but the gameplay is extremely similar. Not sure how much of that I’d consider competition, in my opinion MM just showed there was enough demand for a decent racing management game for someone to get a licence to do one for F1. The big advantage that MM has for me though is races are over much quicker.

[grade]

10 minutes ago, GreenTriangle said:

Are you saying that players who prefer games with very good graphics are tempted to "migrate" more quickly from one game to another ? Well, the gaming market is full of games having very good graphics.

No, but players to are tempted to migrate to the better game overall.

This my assumption, not forcing this view on anyone. I believe if a studio showed up and presented the same quality of game as FM, but with better graphics, a lot of users here would migrate to the new game. They want the best bang for their buck.

Since there is no competition for FM. FM is the only choice. In 2012 I did try FIFA Manager, due to FM being far too complicated (the reason why they release Classic later that year), but FIFA Manager didn't satisfied me either, but thought that FIFA manager had better graphics then FM.

[themadsheep2001]

Not really sure about the whole audience argument thing tbh. I'd be fairly certain of SI doing enough market research to know if they are trending right audience wise. Can't say I buy into the idea of forum Joe/Jane blogs knowing more about how to target their varied audience than SI. 

[GreenTriangle]

FM is like a Rubik's cube. The different components are closely interconnected. Did you modify one side of the cube ? You changed the others as well. I suppose that the most difficult thing is to interconnect the match engine and the graphics engine. I'm not saying it's not possible, but the change probably requires much more than a year. The trouble is that if someone from SI were to announce: "look, we intend to improve the graphics engine, but this will probably take two years", dozens of "experts" would immediately appear and express their dismay and anger, immediately claiming that "it's not worth we buy the game until then" as well as that "in the meantime, countless other important improvements should be made". The thing is that any other improvement would in turn increase the time required for drawing and interconnection, and if after 2 years SI would say "unfortunately we need another year" these "experts" would immediately proclaim that "SI does not keep its word and it doesn't respect its customers". Unfortunately, sometimes some of these vocal experts who claim to represent all the other users are the ones who damage the cooperation between users and developers.

[2feet]

Does anyone know the further details on the data hub improvements that were published today (but published hidden to the public?)

[grade]

14 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Not really sure about the whole audience argument thing tbh. I'd be fairly certain of SI doing enough market research to know if they are trending right audience wise. Can't say I buy into the idea of forum Joe/Jane blogs knowing more about how to target their varied audience than SI. 

I'm not under any illussion, that the people complain is the majority, because if they were, SI had change things around. Now, if we are in a majority, not expect any changes for FM23. Maybe some procedural and more interactions that changes are in the way. Maybe that is what Miles blog will be in few days (probably a week or so), will be about or not. Don't work at SI, but I'm just saying my personal opinion and what other users say on other avenues of www.

For example the majority places I have seen, most people seemed to unlike Miles facegen. Are they the majority, don't know, I have no metrics for that. Even if they are Majority, most devs seemed to not care about it. Because facegens and graphics are being critize that gone worse since FM17, yet,they have made little progress in that regards. Again my personal view.

Why not, as marketing campaign for the new FM, get some players on video and have the comment on their FM numbers? I know it isn't new since FIFA does this already.

Edited October 14, 2022 by grade

[(sic)]

32 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Not really sure about the whole audience argument thing tbh. I'd be fairly certain of SI doing enough market research to know if they are trending right audience wise. Can't say I buy into the idea of forum Joe/Jane blogs knowing more about how to target their varied audience than SI. 

Idk, some stuff is pretty straight forward, without needing to do market research and analysis. I never claimed I knew more than the SI, so idk where that's coming from. I'm not sure why you're trying to counter every single criticism of the game with arguments.

I think it's a well known fact that FM attracts audience that's, on average, older than most other games. 

Just looking at that poll, it says ~70% of players are 30+. I know that it isn't really a representative of the whole playerbase, but I don't think it's much different from reality. 
 

I think it's also fair to say younger audiences are used to having certain level and quality of graphics when it comes to games, so it's not a wild thing to assume that they're going to have a harder time getting into FM, compared to other games, that feel and look more modern. Sure, there are some people who like to play older games, even though they didn't grow up with them, but those players are a minority.

 

I don't know, it just makes sense that improving the graphics would attract more people to the game. Now whether it's worth doing, is completely another question. And we have discussed this previously. But you can't argue that the game doesn't look dated.

[themadsheep2001]

6 minutes ago, (sic) said:

Idk, some stuff is pretty straight forward, without needing to do market research and analysis. I never claimed I knew more than the SI, so idk where that's coming from. I'm not sure why you're trying to counter every single criticism of the game with arguments.

I think it's a well known fact that FM attracts audience that's, on average, older than most other games. 

Just looking at that poll, it says ~70% of players are 30+. I know that it isn't really a representative of the whole playerbase, but I don't think it's much different from reality. 
 

I think it's also fair to say younger audiences are used to having certain level and quality of graphics when it comes to games, so it's not a wild thing to assume that they're going to have a harder time getting into FM, compared to other games, that feel and look more modern. Sure, there are some people who like to play older games, even though they didn't grow up with them, but those players are a minority.

 

I don't know, it just makes sense that improving the graphics would attract more people to the game. Now whether it's worth doing, is completely another question. And we have discussed this previously. But you can't argue that the game doesn't look dated.

You literally say it yourself, the poll not really representative of the fan. So unless you're researching elsewhere, how can you be certain it's not different from reality?

Younger audiences also play Minecraft, so perhaps we shouldn't really generalise so much, no?

It's one thing to say "I think the game should have better graphics" but presenting it as "the game needs it to grow and get younger audiences" isnt going to make a point stronger, and actually only SI can substantiate that. 

[Dagenham_Dave]

I was just coming on here to post 'Minecraft', it's literally the most popular game on the planet right now (god knows why, but thats another story...) , and the graphics on that game are primitive at best. 

[(sic)]

4 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

You literally say it yourself, the poll not really representative of the fan. So unless you're researching elsewhere, how can you be certain it's not different from reality?

Younger audiences also play Minecraft, so perhaps we shouldn't really generalise so much, no?

It's one thing to say "I think the game should have better graphics" but presenting it as "the game needs it to grow and get younger audiences" isnt going to make a point stronger, and actually only SI can substantiate that. 

It's not a representative, but you constantly hear about this all the time on forums. It has probably been mentioned in this thread already. There's no reason to believe it's not true.

You can easily draw conclusions without having the exact data.

The same people who use old laptops to play this game, and the same people who use those laptops only to play FM, are probably and generally the people that are 30+, rather than teenagers/early 20s people. I'm not saying it's the case for everyone, but it probably is for majority of people.

Minecraft has a unique pixelated style, and I wouldn't necessarily say those graphics are that bad. Besides, there are a ton of mods and stuff that can make that game look incredible (and very hardware demanding). Also there are many reasons why a game like Minecraft might appeal to a really young audience, the same reasons a game like FM might not. 

I'm not claiming something wild here. The game does need to grow, and it does need new and better graphics. It also isn't wild to assume that improved visuals/graphics are going to help with capturing some of the younger audience. Obviously there are other reasons why younger people might not want to play FM, but having better graphics would help in attracting them.

I don't care if only SI can give the exact answer with hard proof. That doesn't mean I'm wrong at all. It just means that I don't have hard proof, that you seem to want. But again, I think you can make some observations and come to conclusions without having that proof.


 

[themadsheep2001]

17 minutes ago, (sic) said:

It's not a representative, but you constantly hear about this all the time on forums. It has probably been mentioned in this thread already. There's no reason to believe it's not true.

You can easily draw conclusions without having the exact data.

The same people who use old laptops to play this game, and the same people who use those laptops only to play FM, are probably and generally the people that are 30+, rather than teenagers/early 20s people. I'm not saying it's the case for everyone, but it probably is for majority of people.

Minecraft has a unique pixelated style, and I wouldn't necessarily say those graphics are that bad. Besides, there are a ton of mods and stuff that can make that game look incredible (and very hardware demanding). Also there are many reasons why a game like Minecraft might appeal to a really young audience, the same reasons a game like FM might not. 

I'm not claiming something wild here. The game does need to grow, and it does need new and better graphics. It also isn't wild to assume that improved visuals/graphics are going to help with capturing some of the younger audience. Obviously there are other reasons why younger people might not want to play FM, but having better graphics would help in attracting them.

I don't care if only SI can give the exact answer with hard proof. That doesn't mean I'm wrong at all. It just means that I don't have hard proof, that you seem to want. But again, I think you can make some observations and come to conclusions without having that proof.


 

The game was 7th best selling on Steam on its pre release. And it's not even out for for another month. 

The "young audience" is just a massive unsubstantiated generalisation. What age? What demographic? What global location? 

We can say "I think the game needs this or that" without trying to argue these sweeping points. It doesn't make what you're requesting saying any stronger or make SI listen any harder. If they think something is well written and a valid point they will take it on board regardless 

[(sic)]

8 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

The game was 7th best selling on Steam on its pre release. And it's not even out for for another month. 

The "young audience" is just a massive unsubstantiated generalisation. What age? What demographic? What global location? 

I'm not saying game isn't successful currently. It is successful and it is relatively popular. Though you could always improve that, especially in the future, and I just argued that having better graphics is one way of doing it. Whether it's bringing back the old players, or getting new players in. 


The younger audience would generally be anyone under 25-30 in a broader sense, alternatively (and more specifically) teenagers / people under 20. Regardless of other demographics.

My original point was about the distant future, not the right now, anyways. It's not even something worth arguing about.

[AllyJoseph]

3 hours ago, GreenTriangle said:

Am I supposed to understand that 4 out of 10 players got bored (after only a few weeks) of a graphically fantastic game ? It seems to be logical, considering the fact that fans of advanced graphics do not have much patience. It remains to be seen if they would be attracted to a game (FM) in which, however, patience is strictly necessary.

The issue with this game was that it had absolutely no depth passed the surface level. FM already has the depth, its missing the surface level polish of fancy graphics, new UI, QoL upgrades rather than more bloat. Let's also not forget FM has been around and improved upon over 30 years, this had a couple of years development.

F1 Manager was made by a company with no sports management sim experience, but are known for their level of polish. Its also the first in at least 3 annual games, they've already begun to improve the main game but its a mile away from finished. It is definitely an example of how sports management games are advancing graphically.

We need a sort of happy medium. Slightly worse graphics than this, but much much more depth. FM could spend the next development cycle making no changes at all to their game OTHER than graphics/UI/presentation, and it would be the best management sim to have ever been released. They instead are intent on releasing things most people do not want or more bloating of the game, its actively making the game worse.

They have the perfect sim tbh, yes the hardcore like us who come to forum want better match engines, better tactics, better set pieces, but I also bet all of us on here have 1,000's of hours in the game in its current guise. Imagine those thousands of hours pitchside with proper graphics, real stadiums, proper skills, real kits with badges. Players would have so much more personality, TV interviews would feel much more real pitchside. Trophies would mean more....

[FelixForte]

I'm not accusing SI of anything, but companies with a product close to full maturity often try to lengthen the lifecycle by not introducing new features as quickly as they can. Look at the iPhone, which only very recently a 120 refresh rate. Once you have a phone with a screen as sharp as you can perceive, a battery to last you a day and a camera to take a professional picture, there's just not that more meaningful innovation you can do. Therefore, you better bring out the iPhone 14 and 15 before you make the last significant improvements.

It could be the same for FM. Once the graphics become crisp, international management and set pieces are fixed, there's not that much more to add. Sure you can keep adding quality of life and immersions changes, but those won't be revolutionary anymore. Just look at FIFA, that game has been 'finished' since FIFA10 and has since moved to a different business model where they for example give the World Cup as a free DLC and monetise through micro (and sometimes not so micro) transactions.

[PigeonStrangler]

2 hours ago, GreenTriangle said:

Are you saying that players who prefer games with very good graphics are tempted to "migrate" more quickly from one game to another ? Well, the gaming market is full of games having very good graphics.

In this instance you’re talking about the football management simulation niche.  Other than Football Manager, there’s very little options out there.

[PigeonStrangler]

19 minutes ago, AllyJoseph said:

The issue with this game was that it had absolutely no depth passed the surface level. FM already has the depth, its missing the surface level polish of fancy graphics, new UI, QoL upgrades rather than more bloat. Let's also not forget FM has been around and improved upon over 30 years, this had a couple of years development.

I completely agree with this.  Football Manager doesn’t need new features.  It just needs to improve the ones it has.  A better match engine must be the highest priority for them.  It’s the main part of the entire game!