*Official* Football Manager 2023 Feedback Thread

[Tyburn]

Update 23.2.2 was a stability and performance patch. Correct?

[Golob]

16 минут назад, Rashidi сказал:

The game doesn't have built in modifiers like you describe that attempt to produce expected outcomes that are reasonable by SI standards, otherwise I wont be seeing Tottenham Hotspur get relegated so often. It has managers for the AI, a set of plans the manager uses, it has players the manager is more likely to use based on his preferred formation and a set of plans he will turn to if a game isn't proceeding to plan. Now if the manager is a complete idiot, and that has happened a few times as far as I can tell, then its not the fault of the engine, its the fault of the person who decided the tactic the manager was going to use. This season most of the managers are working off better designed tactics and have a reasonable plan B in case plan A doesn't work. 

There is nothing opaque about it. What the game lacks is an updated description of mentality and tool tips that explain the roles and instructions in a bit more detail.

Seeing Tottenham get relegated has nothing to do with built-in modifiers for ensuring reasonable distribution of outcomes that I am pretty sure exist. Otherwise it would be a very poor game design.
 

I think the problem is that the game is not so good at modelling events progression and game statistics that would make the need to use those modifiers really minimal or mostly unnoticable.
 

Moreover the balance between realism and fun for many players is apparently frustrating, which is probably another reason to introduce difficulty/realism levels.

[XaW]

2 minutes ago, Golob said:

Seeing Tottenham get relegated has nothing to do with built-in modifiers for ensuring reasonable distribution of outcomes that I am pretty sure exist. Otherwise it would be a very poor game design.
 

I think the problem is that the game is not so good at modelling events progression and game statistics that would make the need to use those modifiers really minimal or mostly unnoticable.
 

Moreover the balance between realism and fun for many players is apparently frustrating, which is probably another reason to introduce difficulty/realism levels.

SI have said multiple time that the game does not work on that type of modifiers you are talking about.

 

[Golob]

1 минуту назад, XaW сказал:

SI have said multiple time that the game does not work on that type of modifiers you are talking about.

 

I think you are mixing up scripting with modifiers. Two different things. For me scripting means pre-determined results, and I think/hope this is not in the game. 
 

Modifiers are another thing that affects probabilities of outcomes, and it is only reasonable that they do exist in the game.

[XaW]

3 minutes ago, Golob said:

I think you are mixing up scripting with modifiers. Two different things. For me scripting means pre-determined results, and I think/hope this is not in the game. 
 

Modifiers are another thing that affects probabilities of outcomes, and it is only reasonable that they do exist in the game.

Did you read the post or just read the headline? Neil does explain it in quite detail.

[Golob]

14 минут назад, XaW сказал:

Did you read the post or just read the headline? Neil does explain it in quite detail.

Yes, I read that post. How does it contradict to what I am saying? 
He mentions that there is a super long list of factors to affect outcomes. I guess it also includes the “accumulated” outcomes. Especially taking into account the phrase ”But all the above has to sit into the constraints of trying to produce an accurate representation of football. “ Though it may mean many things.

As I said, nothing wrong with affecting probabilities of results with appropriate factors. It is just the need/use of some of them (related to reasonable outcomes) better to be minimized/unnoticable to avoid players frustration.

At the same time, I think SI did a great job in creating the current ME and the game overall. We are just talking about potential improvements here.

[XaW]

19 minutes ago, Golob said:

Yes, I read that post. How does it contradict to what I am saying? 
He mentions that there is a super long list of factors to affect outcomes. I guess it also includes the “accumulated” outcomes. Especially taking into account the phrase ”But all the above has to sit into the constraints of trying to produce an accurate representation of football. “ Though it may mean many things.

As I said, nothing wrong with affecting probabilities of results with appropriate factors. It is just the need/use of some of them (related to reasonable outcomes) better to be minimized/unnoticable to avoid players frustration.

At the same time, I think SI did a great job in creating the current ME and the game overall. We are just talking about potential improvements here.

I think you missed this one:

Quote

The game does not 'decide' you are suddenly going to lose because it's programmed that way

I think this is pretty clear that there are no factors that decides that you will win or lose any given match.

Also this:

Quote

So when you ask what decides the result of the match or a weaker time scoring with a shot, it's pretty much everything. Except whether the teams are AI controlled or user controlled. As this is not something used in any calculation

The game does not know if a team is controlled by the AI or a human player. Each game is played in isolation, so my issue with your posts are:

1 hour ago, Golob said:

built-in modifiers for ensuring reasonable distribution of outcomes that I am pretty sure exist

This directly is contradicted in the post I linked to. This types of modifiers doesn't exists.

What does exists, and is clearly stated in the game is the mindset of players. Morale, jadedness, complacency, these are in the game, and your staff will try to help you in this regard. For example, if you go on a winning streak, it will at some point be harder and harder to make sure your players are not getting complacent and thus not giving their all. This is a factor for wins, but you can counteract it to a degree by being more demanding and limiting praise. In previous versions, I've gone on 30+ winning streaks before, but it does get harder. I haven't done so in FM23 yet, since I haven't managed to build a dominant side yet.

I'm trying to be clear here, since I see the argument of "loss modifiers", scripting, "drama creation", or whatever you wanna call it regularly even though SI have again and again explained that it's not the case. Writing stuff like "scripted results" has often a way of becoming a "truth", even if it's factually wrong.

[thejay]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Golob:

I mostly agree with what you say, but I think the frustration with the game mostly comes from things that you do not mention here.

 The ME is probably enforcing reasonable distribution of season outcomes, which I can understand. Otherwise we would be able to see one team winning, say, 90% of matches (or even 100%, why not?). However the game mechanics are not able to prevent situations when a team totally and consistently dominates in terms of abilities and match statistics (apart from results). And this is usually the player’s team due to a human being smarter than AI (though I believe in ME treating all teams equally).
 

This is when the frustration comes because the game becomes a fight vs built-in modifiers (for reasonable outcomes), not so much vs the opposition abilities/tactics. And this often hits mid-season when  “normalizing” outcomes presumably kicks in. 

yes its essentially the game normalising unrealistic outcomes by affecting probability , happens in most games where its human vs ai

Edited January 29, 2023 by thejay

[thejay]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb XaW:

I think you missed this one:

I think this is pretty clear that there are no factors that decides that you will win or lose any given match.

Also this:

The game does not know if a team is controlled by the AI or a human player. Each game is played in isolation, so my issue with your posts are:

This directly is contradicted in the post I linked to. This types of modifiers doesn't exists.

What does exists, and is clearly stated in the game is the mindset of players. Morale, jadedness, complacency, these are in the game, and your staff will try to help you in this regard. For example, if you go on a winning streak, it will at some point be harder and harder to make sure your players are not getting complacent and thus not giving their all. This is a factor for wins, but you can counteract it to a degree by being more demanding and limiting praise. In previous versions, I've gone on 30+ winning streaks before, but it does get harder. I haven't done so in FM23 yet, since I haven't managed to build a dominant side yet.

I'm trying to be clear here, since I see the argument of "loss modifiers", scripting, "drama creation", or whatever you wanna call it regularly even though SI have again and again explained that it's not the case. Writing stuff like "scripted results" has often a way of becoming a "truth", even if it's factually wrong.

not it does not, modifiers mean the probability of an outcome is affected, not that its planned that you lose or anything like that. 

 

 

[rp1966]

22 minutes ago, thejay said:

not it does not, modifiers mean the probability of an outcome is affected, not that its planned that you lose or anything like that. 

 

 

I think 'probability of an outcome' is an awkward phrase to use at it implies direct influence over the result of a given game.  What you will find that I would consider 'probability modifiers' are those that affect player's performance based on their attributes (especially hidden ones) - so home/away, morale, complacency and big game pressure.  These all affect the ability of you players to reach their potential in a particular game or during certain actions (e.g big game pressure reducing chance of scoring a penalty), but none are directly biasing the result.

Complacency is one that has quite a big affect, but seems to respond pretty well to how you conduct press interviews and. especially, team talks.  

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by rp1966

[Golob]

11 минут назад, XaW сказал:

I think you missed this one:

I think this is pretty clear that there are no factors that decides that you will win or lose any given match.

Also this:

The game does not know if a team is controlled by the AI or a human player. Each game is played in isolation, so my issue with your posts are:

This directly is contradicted in the post I linked to. This types of modifiers doesn't exists.

What does exists, and is clearly stated in the game is the mindset of players. Morale, jadedness, complacency, these are in the game, and your staff will try to help you in this regard. For example, if you go on a winning streak, it will at some point be harder and harder to make sure your players are not getting complacent and thus not giving their all. This is a factor for wins, but you can counteract it to a degree by being more demanding and limiting praise. In previous versions, I've gone on 30+ winning streaks before, but it does get harder. I haven't done so in FM23 yet, since I haven't managed to build a dominant side yet.

I'm trying to be clear here, since I see the argument of "loss modifiers", scripting, "drama creation", or whatever you wanna call it regularly even though SI have again and again explained that it's not the case. Writing stuff like "scripted results" has often a way of becoming a "truth", even if it's factually wrong.

I think I did not make some statements you replied to. I naver said it is programmed to lose. I always talk about probabilities of outcomes, not scripted outcomes. Also I never said human and AI are not treated equally. Actually I said the opposite - I think they are treated equally.

That is probably fine that modifiers preventing a team from continious winning that would produce unrealistic distribution of outcomes are hidden behind complacency or something else, but this is very unclear and results in players frustration.

I usually also play PDX strategy games, and they are much more transparent about game mechanics. You win or lose fully knowing why. So I probably just need to adjust to this “black box ME” thing

[XaW]

24 minutes ago, thejay said:

not it does not, modifiers mean the probability of an outcome is affected, not that its planned that you lose or anything like that. 

Well that's a broad way of seeing it. Then you might as well say that attributes are as well? How else would the match be resolved if not by modifiers. What I'm talking about it the modifiers YOU can work with. And you can with those!

[XaW]

43 minutes ago, Golob said:

I think I did not make some statements you replied to. I naver said it is programmed to lose. I always talk about probabilities of outcomes, not scripted outcomes. Also I never said human and AI are not treated equally. Actually I said the opposite - I think they are treated equally.

That is probably fine that modifiers preventing a team from continious winning that would produce unrealistic distribution of outcomes are hidden behind complacency or something else, but this is very unclear and results in players frustration.

I usually also play PDX strategy games, and they are much more transparent about game mechanics. You win or lose fully knowing why. So I probably just need to adjust to this “black box ME” thing

Well, that is because this game is not built to be a min/max type game. If you play Civilization at the highest difficulties, you know you have to do X, Y, and Z, if you don't you'll lose to the AI. But there the AI will get bonuses you don't. FM doesn't work like that, because football doesn't work like that. In football the best team doesn't always win. And the team that does everything correctly can still lose to someone not doing everything correctly. Low scoring sports are so much about the few moments that decides stuff. Sports with loads of "points" does not have the same. And that is replicated in FM through various "factors". And what the manager can do is influence those factors to increase the probability of a win, but your chances will just about never be 100% or 0%. And when millions of people play many seasons, strange stuff happens. And as you probably know, we humans are horrible at predicting odds!

You can win or lose and know why in FM, but sometimes you do the right thing but still lose, that's the difference from other more deterministic type games.

[Sanel]

5 hours ago, XaW said:

Well, that is because this game is not built to be a min/max type game. If you play Civilization at the highest difficulties, you know you have to do X, Y, and Z, if you don't you'll lose to the AI. But there the AI will get bonuses you don't. FM doesn't work like that, because football doesn't work like that. In football the best team doesn't always win. And the team that does everything correctly can still lose to someone not doing everything correctly. Low scoring sports are so much about the few moments that decides stuff. Sports with loads of "points" does not have the same. And that is replicated in FM through various "factors". And what the manager can do is influence those factors to increase the probability of a win, but your chances will just about never be 100% or 0%. And when millions of people play many seasons, strange stuff happens. And as you probably know, we humans are horrible at predicting odds!

You can win or lose and know why in FM, but sometimes you do the right thing but still lose, that's the difference from other more deterministic type games.

Somewhat true yes, but it's kinda odd that the top tier AI teams can discover 180+ PA regens without any caps for their first team. A Manchester United and PSG is a example that has this behaviour, not only in FM 23, but for a decade in FM.

I'd also like to know why some teams are predetermined to produce 180+ regens. ASEC is a example. Knowing this destroys my immersion.

Edited January 29, 2023 by Sanel

[Jellico73]

On 26/01/2023 at 04:34, sthptngomad76 said:

Some of the long term experiments conducted by FM streamers show some completely chaotic changes in reputation of some leagues as well

Long term wise, its interesting.  Last 1000 year save I did England had a ton of changes, France and Germany to a lesser extent, Italy as well.  I didn't have spain loaded so that was Real?Barca for 1000 years.  A lot of the smaller countries I didn't have loaded had a lot of changes.  Takes about 100 years for the big leagues to really start changing, couple hundred years after that you start getting some fun results.

[Jellico73]

8 minutes ago, Sanel said:

Somewhat true yes, but it's kinda odd that the top tier AI teams can discover 180+ PA regens without any caps for their first team. A Manchester United and PSG is a example that has this behaviour, not only in FM 23, but for a decade in FM.

I'd also like to know why some teams are predetermined to produce 180+ regens. ASEC is a example. Knowing this destroys my immersion.

None of them are predetermined, it's just the odds of them producing them are higher based on a variety of other factors as well.  For every 180+ newgen ASEC creates, there's 10 or so who will never get above 100.  San Marino can create a 180+ newgen, the odds are stacked against it, so it's just highly improbable it ever will, but not impossible. 

Besides, ASEC is one of the best clubs in Africa, with one of the best youth systems and a reputation for sending players to big leagues, and many of those players are successful.  If your at a club that has the ability to scout there, why wouldn't you, and how does doing that 'break immersion'?

[XaW]

1 hour ago, Sanel said:

Somewhat true yes, but it's kinda odd that the top tier AI teams can discover 180+ PA regens without any caps for their first team. A Manchester United and PSG is a example that has this behaviour, not only in FM 23, but for a decade in FM.

I'd also like to know why some teams are predetermined to produce 180+ regens. ASEC is a example. Knowing this destroys my immersion.

Most likely because the best teams have the most knowledge around the world and have scouts that follow all youth tournaments. Having scouts that has knowledge of most of the world will make the scouts suggest those players faster. That goes for whatever club that has the knowledge.

Some teams have great academies, looking at ASEC as an example, they've nurtured players like Yaya Toure, Gervinho, Salomon Kalou, Emmanuel Eboué, Didier Zokora, and a whole lot further well known Ivorian players. So they are obviously a hotspot for talented Ivorians in real life. So FM would have them at a very high level in terms of youth coaching and youth recruitment. And since they are one of the biggest teams in the Ivory Coast, they will often be the place for high potential newgens. I don't know how you play FM, or what knowledge you have of newgens or development, but identifying high PA is not always easy (unless you use tools to see the actual PA, which quite frankly makes the whole point moot, since then you can just look at everyone), and far from all players will ever reach their potential. Having a high potential is only part of the process of becoming a great player. Personality (the hidden attributes), training, match exposure, facilities, etc are all key aspects of actually turning a talent into a great player. Even attribute distribution can be a big thing, and I've seen players with 130 PA become better than 190 PA players simply because of better distributed attributes and a good personality.

So no, ASEC are not predetermined to have great talents, but they are a very likely hotspot for talented Ivorians, as they are in real life. The same can be said for a number of other teams around the world who foster talent after talent. Look at La Masia for Barcelona to point out an obvious one that is very likely to spoil it for anyone.

[CaptCanuck]

So this (where any player under 18 refuses to sign with your club) is still in there? Does anyone have any workarounds? I guess loan to buy, but the player will still say no as it is a perm move still.

Fair enough if a player from Colombia doesn't want to sign until they are 18, but within England? Players under 18 move all the time.
I found this when I did a search, but that was about it:

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by CaptCanuck

[Sanel]

7 hours ago, XaW said:

Most likely because the best teams have the most knowledge around the world and have scouts that follow all youth tournaments. Having scouts that has knowledge of most of the world will make the scouts suggest those players faster. That goes for whatever club that has the knowledge.

Some teams have great academies, looking at ASEC as an example, they've nurtured players like Yaya Toure, Gervinho, Salomon Kalou, Emmanuel Eboué, Didier Zokora, and a whole lot further well known Ivorian players. So they are obviously a hotspot for talented Ivorians in real life. So FM would have them at a very high level in terms of youth coaching and youth recruitment. And since they are one of the biggest teams in the Ivory Coast, they will often be the place for high potential newgens. I don't know how you play FM, or what knowledge you have of newgens or development, but identifying high PA is not always easy (unless you use tools to see the actual PA, which quite frankly makes the whole point moot, since then you can just look at everyone), and far from all players will ever reach their potential. Having a high potential is only part of the process of becoming a great player. Personality (the hidden attributes), training, match exposure, facilities, etc are all key aspects of actually turning a talent into a great player. Even attribute distribution can be a big thing, and I've seen players with 130 PA become better than 190 PA players simply because of better distributed attributes and a good personality.

So no, ASEC are not predetermined to have great talents, but they are a very likely hotspot for talented Ivorians, as they are in real life. The same can be said for a number of other teams around the world who foster talent after talent. Look at La Masia for Barcelona to point out an obvious one that is very likely to spoil it for anyone.

So Eboué and Zokora had 180+ PA? As far as I remember they were bang average and incosistent. Just as mentioned before, ASEC like other clubs are more likely to produce elite regens for no reason whatsoever. The issue here is, the factors that trigger these regens cannot be replicated by the human player because it's predertermined in the db. An example would be producing regens with a club in Norway (with the best youth and training facilities and so on) because some settings in the db prevent them from producing above a specific PA. This include reputation and competition raking issues. There  are an enormous amount of posts about this on these forums. But I'm not clever enough to spot good regens. I'll spoil the secret here:

#1: Determination

#2: Specific stats based on position that are 12+

#3: Personality

#4: Work rate

#5: AI behaviour around the specific player. Interest in the player suggest CA and PA. This means that Southamption rarely shows interest in a 180+ PA player, but PSG does often. Which indicates you shouldn't sell the player as he's more likely to have a high PA.

When you're playing the game for 15+ years this doesn't seem random anymore. Maybe for new players.

Quote

None of them are predetermined, it's just the odds of them producing them are higher based on a variety of other factors as well.

So it's predetermined. And I know which 'factors' it are because you can change it in the editor.

[Jellico73]

28 minutes ago, Sanel said:

So it's predetermined. And I know which 'factors' it are because you can change it in the editor.

ASEC isn't going to produce "X" 180 PA players every year.  They have the potential too, which is what those numbers play into, but it's not a guarantee.  You could give them best everything, and all you doing is increasing the odds that they will get a great youth player, but not guaranteeing one.  Even with the best everything, the will still generate 'substandard' players.  Plenty of videos on youtube showing as much.

[Sanel]

21 minutes ago, Jellico73 said:

ASEC isn't going to produce "X" 180 PA players every year.  They have the potential too, which is what those numbers play into, but it's not a guarantee.  You could give them best everything, and all you doing is increasing the odds that they will get a great youth player, but not guaranteeing one.  Even with the best everything, the will still generate 'substandard' players.  Plenty of videos on youtube showing as much.

I don't think you're wrong. But predetermined odds are unhealthy for the game because it removes unpredictability. Predetermined odds means that abusing the mechanic by searching with filters can improve your odds to find a good player with a high PA. I think scouting therefore is a mess and should be overhauled. This is in the game as far as I can remember. This also indicates a bigger problem too, because reputation is too much involved in the games mechanics that smaller football countries can't keep up with these odds.

[Jellico73]

It's a game based on actual world realities.  Barcelona has a great youth system.  ASEC has a great youth system.  Porto has a great Youth System, and so on.  Ignoring that hurts the game more than helps it.

I've a test save, all the countries loaded, all 454K players loaded.  In the 18 and under's in this database, 

There are 5 players with 190+ potential, from Hertha Berlin, Chelsea, Inter, Suwon and Viktoria Plzen

There are 13 players  with 180-189 potential, from ASSE, Toluca, FLU, FLA, Dinamo Moscow, Genk, San Lorenzo, Espanyol, Villareal, Liverpool, PSV, Juve, and Sassualo.

In the same save, over the last two youth intakes, Chelsea has one player at 177 PA, 5 from 150 to 159, 2 from 144 to 149, 3 in the 130's, 3 in the 120's, 3 in the 110's, 3 in the 90's, 3 in the 80's and a 73.  

What out of those strikes you as 'Predetermined'?

 

 

 

[XaW]

3 hours ago, Sanel said:

So Eboué and Zokora had 180+ PA? As far as I remember they were bang average and incosistent. Just as mentioned before, ASEC like other clubs are more likely to produce elite regens for no reason whatsoever. The issue here is, the factors that trigger these regens cannot be replicated by the human player because it's predertermined in the db. An example would be producing regens with a club in Norway (with the best youth and training facilities and so on) because some settings in the db prevent them from producing above a specific PA. This include reputation and competition raking issues. There  are an enormous amount of posts about this on these forums. But I'm not clever enough to spot good regens. I'll spoil the secret here:

#1: Determination

#2: Specific stats based on position that are 12+

#3: Personality

#4: Work rate

#5: AI behaviour around the specific player. Interest in the player suggest CA and PA. This means that Southamption rarely shows interest in a 180+ PA player, but PSG does often. Which indicates you shouldn't sell the player as he's more likely to have a high PA.

When you're playing the game for 15+ years this doesn't seem random anymore. Maybe for new players.

No, but those two and the others I mentioned are good players at the top level. I'm going to put some stuff in spoilers here, because it's from the editor and contains some hidden values. Look at your own peril:

Spoiler

This is the highest reputation clubs in the Ivory Coast, as you can see ASEC have very high setting in all youth categories as well as the highest reputation. At the same time, very few clubs have anything close to them. All these factors, in addition to the fact that Ivory Coast have a high youth rating for the nation, as well as the other national factors that are set to make sure they produce a high number of good newgens to mirror real life, makes ASEC a hotspot. That doesn't mean they always will have good youth players, but it means that they are the most likely place for great Ivorian newgens to appear.

It you compare that to Norway as you said:

Look at all those clubs with high youth settings! And very similar reputation as well. This means that no one club is the preferred place for great Norwegian newgens! If you have set all clubs except Vålerenga to low and kept Vålerenga high, then Vålerenga would be in the same place as ASEC, but they aren't alone in being a good place for youngsters to come through.

The game tries to mirror real life, and in real life ASEC is the best at developing young talents in the Ivory Coast, so the game replicates it.

Also I took a look at one of my previous games where I have the editor active, and looked at them. The game is in 2027, and the best player they have generated has 176 PA and he got picked up by Dortmund. They also currently have 2 newgens with PA of 143 and 149, which are solid, but not spectacular. So 5 years in and no 180+ players.

And before you mention it, I always tick the "international players" and "players from continental competitions" for all continents when I start games, so most of the big teams and all nations have full squads, ASEC included.

I hope this cleared up why it happens, as it's not predetermined, but it does make it MORE likely to happen, and you can replicate it by changing stuff in the editor, but since other clubs also impact it, you can't just give a club max stuff in everything and expect the same to happen elsewhere.

[Mitza]

The issue isn't the fact that the top academies don't produce world class players, or that some players never reach their potential.

The BIGGEST issue is that the game only produces a certain amount of world class players, and with FM23's heavily-toned-down youth development in FM23, plus the AI inability to play these young players, means that in longer-term saves, there is a heavy lack of world class players in time. Just as many people pointed out already, if you look at top team's squads in longer term saves, you'll see the same familiar names, just a lot older. Teams stick with real-life world class players forever, with no world class young regens in sight.

So if you do an experiment and search for 170+ CA players at the start of the game, then try the same search in 12 years, you'll see a pretty big difference. And plenty of times in long-term saves, I searched for 180+ PA regens, to find half of them stuck at 120CA due to lack of development.

[Tyburn]

Personally I think it’s superb that we can finally play with real players for longer. In versions past, players over the age of 30 started to decline so heavily that they were a burden. It was unrealistic. Sure it’s fun to play with a team of wonderkids (albeit boring after a while that all user squads looked the same) but equally it was frustrating that top real players couldn’t compete, as they do in reality, after a certain age.

I do think a tweak is needed for the AI to use more kids in general, too many great prospects get “ruined” by the AI, but please, do not make an older players decline more rapid.

[Jellico73]

22 minutes ago, Mitza said:

The issue isn't the fact that the top academies don't produce world class players, or that some players never reach their potential.

The BIGGEST issue is that the game only produces a certain amount of world class players, and with FM23's heavily-toned-down youth development in FM23, plus the AI inability to play these young players, means that in longer-term saves, there is a heavy lack of world class players in time. Just as many people pointed out already, if you look at top team's squads in longer term saves, you'll see the same familiar names, just a lot older. Teams stick with real-life world class players forever, with no world class young regens in sight.

So if you do an experiment and search for 170+ CA players at the start of the game, then try the same search in 12 years, you'll see a pretty big difference. And plenty of times in long-term saves, I searched for 180+ PA regens, to find half of them stuck at 120CA due to lack of development.

It evens out some point, I don't know where though. Link goes to a save I am just vacationing thru, this is at the 100 year mark.  Editor is enabled so you can add a coach and search, and then add ca and PA and filter that way.  I'm seeing a few players who didn't develop all the way, which seems normal, the one with the biggest difference so far is Michael Asare, CA 129, PA 190 at 27 years old, he's also got an injury history which would explain why he didn't meet his potential.  So it is developing youth, maybe it just needs time to catch up?

https://mega.nz/file/dfci2ZZI#MQ4lHZ80OKlj6kdmWw2-TsqMRP-uMML3cSiD3Ft0AKw

[rp1966]

33 minutes ago, Tyburn said:

Personally I think it’s superb that we can finally play with real players for longer. In versions past, players over the age of 30 started to decline so heavily that they were a burden. It was unrealistic. Sure it’s fun to play with a team of wonderkids (albeit boring after a while that all user squads looked the same) but equally it was frustrating that top real players couldn’t compete, as they do in reality, after a certain age.

I do think a tweak is needed for the AI to use more kids in general, too many great prospects get “ruined” by the AI, but please, do not make an older players decline more rapid.

There are a lot of things in this area that need to be reviewed.  The fact that older players don't suddenly suffer attribute collapse at 30 is a good thing, but SI failed to compensate for that change elsewhere in FM22 and still haven't balanced it in FM23. 

AI squad building needs to be aware of squad average age and age balance across the squad (the experience matrix should be feeding into this) and most importantly the AI team selection should ensure that game time is given to on-form, hIgh PA youngsters.  Reputation as a selection factor needs to reduce as players age (this applies to both squad selection and in recruitment - older players (particularly those who are not considered 'elite') need to take decisions to play for lower wages and lower reputation clubs as they age - this should come as they start losing out to high potential youngsters in squad selection).

One of the things that is very noticeable is that AI squad selection is over-biased towards playing the high-reputation; high-CA players every game. To the extent that they'll play injured high-rep players in preference to making a substitution or bringing in a promising youngster.  This behaviour is so bad that I had a friendly game in which PSG played an injured player against me for the entire game - in a friendly!  

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by rp1966

[Domoboy23]

1 hour ago, rp1966 said:

 

One of the things that is very noticeable is that AI squad selection is over-biased towards playing the high-reputation; high-CA players every game. To the extent that they'll play injured high-rep players in preference to making a substitution or bringing in a promising youngster.  This behaviour is so bad that I had a friendly game in which PSG played an injured player against me for the entire game - in a friendly!  

 

Just on this point, do you know the injury to the player? Just wondering if it was a player using protection to play through the injury? So something minor like a fractured finger in a brace/nose in a mask etc rather than an injury that could really be exacerbated such as something muscular which would be higher risk.

[rp1966]

3 minutes ago, Domoboy23 said:

Just on this point, do you know the injury to the player? Just wondering if it was a player using protection to play through the injury? So something minor like a fractured finger in a brace/nose in a mask etc rather than an injury that could really be exacerbated such as something muscular which would be higher risk.

That's possible - I didn't check it.  But even so, in a friendly you wouldn't really expect a player to risked for the whole match even if it was one playing with protection.

[Flohrinho]

So I decided to pay some more attention to the social media stuff the game "simulates" and I'm not sure why I'm surprised that it's just as void of context as any other interaction in the game as well. Newspaper headline "Borussia Dortmund's hopes of beating RB Salzburg have taken a significant hit with Jude Bellingham ruled out through suspension." Yeah okay, I get it we are missing an important player in the second leg I could live with that headline, IF WE HADN'T JUST BEATEN THEM 7-2 at their stadium FFS!!! This social media fluff is exactly what is getting on my nerve in this game, all this low effort crap that has nothing to do with what's happening in the game and just gets triggered by certain events, not taking anything else into account.

I get it, it's not an important part of the game and I will be ignoring it again, but it leaves a sour taste, it feels like SI simply doesn't care if their new features work as long as they at the time had a new feature to announce, and then it's left bare bones and broken in the game, and the game is completely riddled with these elements by now.

Please, SI I want to like your game again, but it's really hard right now, and I don't even think the ME is as awful as some other posters here do, but the overall experience gets worse and worse year after year which is absolutely depressing.

[Sunstrikuuu]

6 hours ago, rp1966 said:

The fact that older players don't suddenly suffer attribute collapse at 30 is a good thing

Yes, tentatively.  Some players, even very good ones, do suffer significant physical decline in their late 20s and early 30s.  It was very apparent for Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang in his age-31 season, to name a recent high-profile example, and it's fair to say that wasn't a single-season blip.  And players become more injury-prone as they age, and less able to play multiple matches with short turnarounds.  But that doesn't seem to happen in FM23.  As Harry Kane aged from 28 to 32 in a test save I did, his Natural Fitness increased, and his recurring ankle injuries disappeared. I tracked 9 players who started the 2022-23 season in their late 20s or early 30s, and zero of them had decreases in Natural Fitness.  Eight of the nine played 50 or more matches; the one who didn't played 49 for a team that has a shorter season, one domestic cup and didn't go deep in the Champions League.  None of those nine players had any injuries to speak of.

It's good that some players can remain effective into their 30s, but it's not good that players remain physically elite into their age 33-35 seasons.  Like, a 35 year old Immobile probably shouldn't still have very good physical attributes, including 15 Pace.  Mo Salah shouldn't actually be better as a 33 year old than he is as a 29 year old (probably.  Maybe he should!  Maybe he will!  He's not better as a 29 year old than he was as a 27 year old, though!  This isn't about any one player, it's about the pattern).  Age curves and age cliffs are models of observed, real-world events, and it's disappointing how flat FM's are at the back end.

16 minutes ago, Flohrinho said:

So I decided to pay some more attention to the social media stuff the game "simulates" and I'm not sure why I'm surprised that it's just as void of context as any other interaction in the game as well. Newspaper headline "Borussia Dortmund's hopes of beating RB Salzburg have taken a significant hit with Jude Bellingham ruled out through suspension." Yeah okay, I get it we are missing an important player in the second leg I could live with that headline, IF WE HADN'T JUST BEATEN THEM 7-2 at their stadium FFS!!! This social media fluff is exactly what is getting on my nerve in this game, all this low effort crap that has nothing to do with what's happening in the game and just gets triggered by certain events, not taking anything else into account.

I get it, it's not an important part of the game and I will be ignoring it again, but it leaves a sour taste, it feels like SI simply doesn't care if their new features work as long as they at the time had a new feature to announce, and then it's left bare bones and broken in the game, and the game is completely riddled with these elements by now.

Please, SI I want to like your game again, but it's really hard right now, and I don't even think the ME is as awful as some other posters here do, but the overall experience gets worse and worse year after year which is absolutely depressing.

My favorites are the supporter tweets which've been in for a few versions now.  Arsenal interested in signing elite midfielder Eduardo Camavinga?  Guaranteed to have a supporter tweeting WASTE OF MONEY, AWFUL PLAYER, WOT IS THE CLUB DOING??? like AFTV on steroids. 

Edited January 30, 2023 by Sunstrikuuu

[andu1]

Is it normal for all the games in the new UCL format to take place in the same day and at the same hour in group stage?

 

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, andu1 said:

Is it normal for all the games in the new UCL format to take place in the same day and at the same hour in group stage?

 

You would expect some to be spaced out timewise

[XaW]

27 minutes ago, andu1 said:

Is it normal for all the games in the new UCL format to take place in the same day and at the same hour in group stage?

 

If you have selected the marked option that could be the answer.

[andu1]

15 minutes ago, XaW said:

If you have selected the marked option that could be the answer.

This is what i have selected. I think it's the default, i didn't touch anything here.

 

[XaW]

3 minutes ago, andu1 said:

This is what i have selected. I think it's the default, i didn't touch anything here.

 

The you should probably report it as a bug, I think. Seems weird at the very least.

[andu1]

5 minutes ago, XaW said:

The you should probably report it as a bug, I think. Seems weird at the very least.

The issue could be that i started this save before the latest update. I don't have any other saves post update to check if it happens after that...

[Sunstrikuuu]

How do people feel about inverted wingbacks?

[warlock]

1 hour ago, Sunstrikuuu said:

How do people feel about inverted wingbacks?

Bit of an odd question. I don't feel anything about inverted wingbacks. If I think they can improve my tactic I'll use one, otherwise I wouldn't.

I get the sense there's an unspoken agenda here. How do you feel about halfbacks, or wide targetmen?

[Sunstrikuuu]

23 minutes ago, warlock said:

Bit of an odd question. I don't feel anything about inverted wingbacks. If I think they can improve my tactic I'll use one, otherwise I wouldn't.

I get the sense there's an unspoken agenda here. How do you feel about halfbacks, or wide targetmen?

I haven't used them in three or four years, so I don't have any opinions and can hopefully manage to express that without being snarky!

[Phil930]

It's been quite a few years, but historically does the game typically receive a post Jan transfer window update?  

[Sunstrikuuu]

3 minutes ago, Phil930 said:

It's been quite a few years, but historically does the game typically receive a post Jan transfer window update?  

In late February or early March.  Typically it's the final major update in the game's lifecycle.

[warlock]

46 minutes ago, Sunstrikuuu said:

I haven't used them in three or four years, so I don't have any opinions and can hopefully manage to express that without being snarky!

So why ask the question? I'm sorry if you thought my response was snarky, but I simply don't understand the issue. IWBs are like any other role - they can work in your tactic, or not. And that somewhat depends on having players who can play IWB. And why ask the question in the feedback thread???

[Etebaer]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Sunstrikuuu:

How do people feel about inverted wingbacks?

They have no room in my tactical formation and i never use them as i use allmost allways the same tactical formation with very few very slight adjusmtents each year and there is only 1 alternative formation i play very rarely and it also has no room for inverted players.

The foundation of my ballplay is passplay anyway so i dont need dribbling and running with the ball players, my team has allways the least dribblings in a league, also i prefer fast tempo play and dribbling/running with ball slows you down.

[XaW]

There are some really nice finishing in the game!

[Choi seung won]

Will the match engine be modified in the winter update?

Which part do you think needs to be fixed?

[angelo994]

Has there been any talk from SI about the crazy amount of headers? It’s definitely broken and unrealistic. I am seeing players with 50+ headers per match. With work the box & cross less often. The league average was 180 headers per 90 mins. Surely this isn’t s realistic number???

[Neil Brock]

54 minutes ago, angelo994 said:

Has there been any talk from SI about the crazy amount of headers? It’s definitely broken and unrealistic. I am seeing players with 50+ headers per match. With work the box & cross less often. The league average was 180 headers per 90 mins. Surely this isn’t s realistic number???

Like everything we're trying to balance the match engine to make it the most realistic representation of football possible. We're aware of certain areas that don't align with real life that we're investigating. However, as always with these, we won't look to make changes which risk the integrity of the match engine's overall balance, so have to work to find the best overall outcome. Whilst of course we'd want everything to be perfect, imagine you'd agree that FM players would much rather the number of headers be too high than other major aspects, such as scorelines for instance, be completely inaccurate.   

Even the most minor changes to the ME can have knock-ons elsewhere, so any changes have to be extremely considered and heavily tested before they can be considered for an update. 

[Mikal]

3 hours ago, XaW said:

There are some really nice finishing in the game!

And the crowd, fan, cameraman goes wild!

[XaW]

4 minutes ago, Mikal said:

And the crowd, fan, cameraman goes wild!

Playing away to Dortmund's 2nd team, the number of fans are quite on the low side....