OpenAI ChatGPT is a gamechanger for FM immersion

[DarJ]

3 minutes ago, Pekz0r said:

ChatGPT or similar AI would be very nice to fix the press conferences and make them interesting once and for all... 

The API is free for anyone to use too but idk how hard it would  be to implement in the game or if it's even worth it but it might also be useful to provide more meaningful feedback than we have now 

[Pekz0r]

5 minutes ago, DarJ said:

The API is free for anyone to use too but idk how hard it would  be to implement in the game or if it's even worth it but it might also be useful to provide more meaningful feedback than we have now 

Yea, the alternative is to scrap the press conferences altogether.  It's not a big deal as you can let the assistant attend all press conferences, but that feels wrong and hurts the immersion a bit. 

[enigmatic]

4 minutes ago, DarJ said:

The API is free for anyone to use too but idk how hard it would  be to implement in the game or if it's even worth it but it might also be useful to provide more meaningful feedback than we have now 

The ChatGPT API is temporarily free for research purposes. They're not giving uncapped API access away to the developers of a game that sells millions of copies and primarily trains their model on arcane football terms of limited wider interest. And it'd be unusable without a stable internet connection, which is a pretty major change on how FM currently works...

But even if it was free and easy it integrate, the feedback it provides isn't "meaningful" because it has no idea of how to play the game and no ability to impact the game, and it'd also be essentially impossible to debug.

It provides stuff which looks like meaningful feedback because its paragraphs based on words you use and words which commonly appear in football blogs, but is actually complete nonsense, like suggesting you don't mark the keeper to avoid giving away free kicks near the edge of your goal, players should lurk at the far post at corners because they're good at corner taking or long shots, or suggesting to spend 40% of your budget paying your star player 45000 and 27% of your budget paying the next three players 30000. Likewise, it can write all the autogenerated summaries and questions in a press conference you want, but it can't make anything you say actually have an impact on players or club management. Why would SI spend their money on something which is just going to multiply complaints about bugs by 10...

 

 

 

 

[Hovis Dexter]

^^ @enigmatic is quite right ... ChatGPT API is a non starter for FM for all the reasons he states

[Pekz0r]

2 hours ago, enigmatic said:

The ChatGPT API is temporarily free for research purposes. They're not giving uncapped API access away to the developers of a game that sells millions of copies and primarily trains their model on arcane football terms of limited wider interest. And it'd be unusable without a stable internet connection, which is a pretty major change on how FM currently works...

But even if it was free and easy it integrate, the feedback it provides isn't "meaningful" because it has no idea of how to play the game and no ability to impact the game, and it'd also be essentially impossible to debug.

It provides stuff which looks like meaningful feedback because its paragraphs based on words you use and words which commonly appear in football blogs, but is actually complete nonsense, like suggesting you don't mark the keeper to avoid giving away free kicks near the edge of your goal, players should lurk at the far post at corners because they're good at corner taking or long shots, or suggesting to spend 40% of your budget paying your star player 45000 and 27% of your budget paying the next three players 30000. Likewise, it can write all the autogenerated summaries and questions in a press conference you want, but it can't make anything you say actually have an impact on players or club management. Why would SI spend their money on something which is just going to multiply complaints about bugs by 10...

Yes, this is correct. However, I think the next era of AI is where companies like FM/SI uses a general base AI like GPT and then makes their own specialised AI on top of that. That could be done. Those models could be a lot smaller and resource efficient than the base AI like GPT. Those specialised AIs could run locally on pretty limited hardware. Open AI's(The company behind GPT) business model will probably be to license the base IA enable this. This is probably a few years away and it would be a pretty big investment for SI.

[forameuss]

And when the next tech-du-jour comes out that everyone goes mental for, do they invest in that too or is it a one-in-two deal?

[Mars_Blackmon]

Let us take a left turn and discuss using this for tactics. I see this discussed little if at all, and it would be great content for FM YouTubers. I asked the AI to suggest tactics based on my squad. After feeding it the necessary information, it came up with some decent suggestions. It does the manual research you would do by looking at the tactic section here or sites like guide to FM. I suggest any new players use it.

Results after asking it a basic question about Advanced playmakers and then told to come up with other position and roles as well as a formation.

Quote

 

Sure, here's a suggested formation that incorporates all the roles and positions that I previously mentioned, that can work well with an advanced playmaker in a possession-style football:

4-1-2-3 formation

GK- Sweeper Keeper (SK) - Defend duty, Sweeper keeper, Play out of defense

CB- Center-back (CB) - Defend duty, Play out of defense

CB- Center-back (CB) - Defend duty, Play out of defense

WB- Wing-back (WB) - Support duty, Get forward whenever possible, Cross more often

WB- Wing-back (WB) - Support duty, Get forward whenever possible, Cross more often

BWM- Ball-Winning Midfielder (BWM) - Defend duty, Close down more, Tackle hard

DLP- Deep-lying Playmaker (DLP) - Support duty, Play shorter passes, Play out of defense

CM- Central Midfielder (CM) - Support duty, Move into channels, Get further forward

IF- Inside Forward (IF) - Attack duty, Cut inside, Run with ball through center

AP- Advanced Playmaker (AP) - Support duty, Play through balls, Look for killer passes

F9- False 9 (F9) - Attack duty, Roam from position, Come deep to get the ball

As always, it's important to keep in mind that this is just a suggestion, and the key is to adapt the formation and roles to the players you have at your disposal and the style of play that you want to implement.

 

 

 

 

 

Asked it to give me the style of Pep

 

Quote

Formation: 4-3-3

GK - Sweeper-Keeper (SK) - Defend duty, Sweeper keeper, Play out of defense

CB - Ball-Playing Defender (BPD) - Defend duty, Come out with the ball, Play out of defense

CB - Ball-Playing Defender (BPD) - Defend duty, Come out with the ball, Play out of defense

FB - Full-back (FB) - Support duty, Get forward whenever possible, Cross more often

FB - Full-back (FB) - Support duty, Get forward whenever possible, Cross more often

DM - Deep-Lying Playmaker (DLP) - Support duty, Play shorter passes, Play out of defense

CM - Central Midfielder (CM) - Support duty, Move into channels, Get further forward

CM - Central Midfielder (CM) - Support duty, Move into channels, Get further forward

AML - Inside Forward (IF) - Attack duty, Cut inside, Run with ball through center

AMR - Inside Forward (IF) - Attack duty, Cut inside, Run with ball through center

CF - False 9 (F9) - Attack duty, Roam from position, Come deep to get the ball

Team Instructions:

• Work ball into box
• Play out of defense
• Higher tempo
• Shorter passing
• Move the ball through midfield

This formation uses a 4-3-3 formation, with a Sweeper-Keeper in goal and Ball-Playing Defenders in the center of defense, which allows the team to play out from the back. The Full-backs provide width and support to the attack. The midfield is composed of a Deep-Lying Playmaker, who sits deep and directs the play, and two Central Midfielders who provide support to the attack. The Inside Forwards provide width and creativity on the flanks, and the False 9 drops deep to link up play and create space for the midfielders and forwards. The team instructions are set to play out of defense, work ball into box, and move the ball through midfield, which is similar to the style of play used by Guardiola's teams.

It's important to note that this tactic is just an example.

 I can imagine the amount of suggestions it could give for my team if I gave it the text file with all of my player's attributes to base its decisions on.

 

Asking it what is the best tactic for my team after telling it that my team's strength is passing...

Quote

If the best attribute for the team is passing, it would be beneficial to develop a tactical system that emphasizes ball movement and control. A possession-based style of play, such as Tiki-taka, could be effective in utilizing the team's passing ability. This could involve using a formation with a deep-lying playmaker in midfield to control the tempo of the game, and players with high passing accuracy and vision in key positions.

It would also be important to work on the team's movement off the ball, as well as their ability to create space and opportunities for passing. This could involve training the team in positional play and movement patterns, as well as encouraging quick and precise passing in tight spaces.

Additionally, you could use formation that is more suitable for passing style of play, such as 4-3-3, 4-1-2-3 DM, 4-2-3-1, 4-3-1-2, 4-2-2-2, 4-3-2-1, 4-1-4-1, which allow the midfielders to have more space and time on the ball.

It's important to remember that a good passing team does not only mean the team should pass a lot, but also that the passes are accurate, penetrative and forward-thinking, So, it would be wise to focus on the team's ability to make effective and incisive passes to break through the opposition's defense and create scoring opportunities.

 

More dialog...

 

give me a tactic in the style of Alex Ferguson

 

Quote

 

 

 

One tactic that was often used by Sir Alex Ferguson during his tenure as manager of Manchester United was a 4-4-2 formation with a strong emphasis on counter attacking. The formation would typically look something like this:

• Goalkeeper: A traditional shot-stopper with good reflexes and command of the area
• Right Back: A solid defender with good tackling and crossing ability
• Center Backs: Two strong and physical defenders who can also play the ball out of the back
• Left Back: A defender who is comfortable going forward and providing width in attack
• Right Midfield: A hardworking player with good energy and defensive ability
• Center Midfield: A player with good vision and passing ability to control the midfield
• Left Midfield: A player with good pace and dribbling ability to provide width in attack
• Striker: A traditional target man with good aerial ability and hold-up play
• Striker: A fast and clinical finisher who can make runs behind the defense

The team would be instructed to defend deep in their own half, looking to soak up pressure and hit the opposition on the counter attack with quick and direct balls to the strikers. The midfielders would be instructed to play with a high level of energy, closing down the opposition and winning the ball back quickly. The fullbacks would be encouraged to get forward and provide width in attack, while the center backs would be instructed to play the ball out of the back with precision and accuracy.

This tactic would also require a good team spirit and mentality, with players who are willing to work hard for each other and put in the effort to win the ball back. Additionally, Sir Alex Ferguson was known for his ability to adapt to different opponents and situations, so it would be important to also have a plan B and be able to adjust the tactic if needed.

 

how does this translate into Football manager 2023?

Quote

In Football Manager 2023, you can create and implement a tactical system that emulates the style of play used by Sir Alex Ferguson at Manchester United. Here are some steps you can take to achieve this:

1. Select a 4-4-2 formation as your base formation.
2. Assign roles and duties to your players that suit their attributes and abilities. For example, you can assign a "Defensive Midfielder" role to your central midfielders with good tackling and work rate attributes, "Advanced Forward" role to your strikers with good finishing and off the ball attributes.
3. In the team instructions, set your team to play with a counter-attacking mentality, with a focus on quick transitions from defense to attack. Additionally, you can set the team to play with a deep defensive line, to soak up pressure and hit the opposition on the counter.
4. Set the midfielders to press high and close down the opposition, to win the ball back quickly.
5. Encourage your fullbacks to get forward and provide width in attack, while also ensuring they have good defensive attributes to cover when the team is defending.
6. Assign specific instructions to key players, such as having your central midfielders play with more freedom and focus on ball control and distribution, or having your strikers make runs behind the defense.
7. In the match preparation, analyze the opposition's strengths and weaknesses and adjust your tactics accordingly.
8. Continuously monitor the performance of the team and make adjustments to the tactics and player roles as necessary.

It's worth noting that this tactic is just a starting point, and it may not work as well for every team, every league, or against every opponent. The most important thing is to adapt and be able to change your tactics as needed.

 

give me a tactically example

Quote

Sure, here's an example of how you might set up your tactics in Football Manager 2023 using the 4-4-2 formation and counter-attacking mentality:

1. Formation: 4-4-2
2. Team Shape: Balanced
3. Mentality: Counter
4. Tempo: Normal

Player Roles and Duties:

• Goalkeeper: Sweeper Keeper (Support)
• Right Back: Complete Wing Back (Attack)
• Center Backs: Central Defender (Defend)
• Left Back: Complete Wing Back (Attack)
• Right Midfield: Box to Box Midfielder (Support)
• Center Midfield: Defensive Midfielder (Defend)
• Left Midfield: Winger (Attack)
• Striker: Target Man (Attack)
• Striker: Advanced Forward (Attack)

Team Instructions:

• Pass into Space: On
• Play out of Defence: Mixed
• Work Ball into Box: On
• Closing Down: High
• Pressing Intensity: High
• Width: Narrow
• Depth: Shallow

Player Instructions:

• Right Back: Cross More Often
• Center Backs: Play shorter passes
• Left Back: Get Forward Whenever Possible
• Right Midfield: Close Down More
• Center Midfield: Roam from Position
• Left Midfield: Cut Inside With Ball
• Striker: Stay Forward
• Striker: Make Runs Behind Defense

With these settings, your team will be set up to counter-attack quickly, play direct passes into space, and press high up the field to win the ball back. Your midfielders will be instructed to close down and tackle hard, while your defenders will be instructed to play the ball out of the back with precision and accuracy. Your fullbacks will be encouraged to get forward and provide width in attack, while your forwards will be instructed to make runs behind the defense and finish chances. As always, it's important to monitor your team's performance and adapt your tactics as needed.

 

Edited January 18, 2023 by Mars_Blackmon

[The3points]

New players should probably not use chatGPT as you can see many inaccuracies in the response. The robot hasn't played the game: and if it did, it would be stuck in 2018

[XaW]

My biggest issue with this is that while the this can generate some nice responses, is that it would essentially just be fluff. I mean, for it to be impactful at all, the game would need to get some meaningful stuff from this. Today the game uses your responses in the press to modify actual happenings, like if you say a player is available or not for example. So no matter how fancy responses you can have from this, you still have the issue with how the game can use that text and extrapolate the essence, otherwise it's useless, functionally speaking.

[Mars_Blackmon]

39 minutes ago, The3points said:

New players should probably not use chatGPT as you can see many inaccuracies in the response. The robot hasn't played the game: and if it did, it would be stuck in 2018

Its a chat AI, if you want more depth you will have to ask it specific questions. For a new player who dont want to waste hours searching for an answer on google or waiting for a response on a forum, you get instant data.  The "robot" don't have to play the game if its based on the data it collected from places like this forum. In the case of data it collected, it is up to date as of FM 21. Keep in mind that this tool is still in beta...

Edited January 18, 2023 by Mars_Blackmon

[enigmatic]

Just now, Mars_Blackmon said:

Its a chat AI, if you want more depth you will have to ask it specific questions. For a new player who dont want to waste hours searching for an answer on google or waiting for a response on a forum, you get instant data.  The "robot" dont have to play the game if its based on the data it collected from places like this forum.

It's not instant data if it's telling you to select tactical options and roles that don't actually exist though, like a Balanced Team Shape, a Shallow Depth, a Box to Box midfielder on the right wing and Make Runs Behind Defense as a tactical instruction....

In fact, I think fully half the things it's suggested you do for the 4-4-2 aren't actually possible...

 

 

[Mars_Blackmon]

18 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

It's not instant data if it's telling you to select tactical options and roles that don't actually exist though, like a Balanced Team Shape, a Shallow Depth, a Box to Box midfielder on the right wing and Make Runs Behind Defense as a tactical instruction....

In fact, I think fully half the things it's suggested you do for the 4-4-2 aren't actually possible...

 

 

It's beta and I asked it a vague question.  You can actually correct it, hence it being a chat. During beta, not every result will be real time especially when volume is heavy.

Striker making runs behind defense is literally a AF.

Shallow depth = low defensive line

Edited January 18, 2023 by Mars_Blackmon

[The3points]

I don't get it though. If you, as a beginner, need to vet and correct the information the computer gives to you it no longer becomes a valid resource. Howlers such as BBM on the right wing make lose confidence entirely in the advice. And when it does get stuff right it's a little questionable, like the double CMs in the Pep system, the cross more often with the FBs, etc.. The AI doesn't give you exact certainty that it knows what the game does, and it doesn't know what the game does because its not programmed with that information. 

While I agree it has potential, using it as a resource now is asking for trouble

Edited January 18, 2023 by The3points

[enigmatic]

12 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

It's beta and I asked it a vague question.  You can actually correct it, hence it being a chat.

Sure, if you tell it it's wrong it'll say "I am sorry" and make up some more nonsense that has similar words and structure to people that give tactical advice use.  

Not really sure that new players are the people who want to be using a tool they have to correct because its advice is impossible to follow though , and lots of the stuff is subtly wrong (you *can* set up to defend deep in your own half, but you certainly shouldn't do that if you're trying to emulate the tactics of Sir Alex Ferguson, so if you're looking for advice, you'll end up worse off than if you tried to figure it out yourself

Can't see why any new player would want to use a ******** generator rather than searching for advice written by humans that have actually played the game. 

 

Useful for entertainment if you want to generate random stories about team that only loosely match the events of the season, not useful for tactical advice except for amusement purposes.

 

 

[Mars_Blackmon]

10 minutes ago, The3points said:

I don't get it though. If you, as a beginner, need to vet and correct the information the computer gives to you it no longer becomes a valid resource. Howlers such as BBM on the right wing make lose confidence entirely in the advice. And when it does get stuff right it's a little questionable, like the double CMs in the Pep system. The AI doesn't give you exact certainty that it knows what the game does, and it doesn't know what the game does because its not programmed with that information. 

While I agree it has potential, using it as a resource now is asking for trouble

If a beginner asks it a question and it gives you an answer that isn't available in the game or clear, whether you are a beginner or not, I think someone would be aware to ask it a more specific question. Also, after playing around with it, the tactics it suggests check out as useable with the guidetofm tactic analyzer. A site like guidetofm is targeted to beginners who struggle with understanding tactics. I think we can agree that beginner does not mean idiot and would notice BBM on right wing is an error in a program that is currently in beta.

Edited January 18, 2023 by Mars_Blackmon

[Mars_Blackmon]

12 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

Sure, if you tell it it's wrong it'll say "I am sorry" and make up some more nonsense that has similar words and structure to people that give tactical advice use.  

Not really sure that new players are the people who want to be using a tool they have to correct because its advice is impossible to follow though , and lots of the stuff is subtly wrong (you *can* set up to defend deep in your own half, but you certainly shouldn't do that if you're trying to emulate the tactics of Sir Alex Ferguson, so if you're looking for advice, you'll end up worse off than if you tried to figure it out yourself

Can't see why any new player would want to use a ******** generator rather than searching for advice written by humans that have actually played the game. 

 

Useful for entertainment if you want to generate random stories about team that only loosely match the events of the season, not useful for tactical advice except for amusement purposes.

 

 

Data is from humans, it's not auto generated. Again, ask it specific questions. 

 

When I asked it about Alex Ferguson, it also made this comment:

Quote

One tactic that was often used by Sir Alex Ferguson during his tenure as manager of Manchester United was a 4-4-2 formation with a strong emphasis on counter attacking. The formation would typically look something like this:

Then it gave an example of the one tactic it originally suggested. I didn't ask for a time period, a specific game. It gave a general idea. The AI is literally pulling from Data from the internet. 

Edited January 18, 2023 by Mars_Blackmon

[The3points]

I don't think you're seeing my point here. I'm saying if someone said asked for a style to replicate x manager, or why their tactic isn't working, it wouldn't be sensible to use chatGPT. The info it gives you will be noticably awful the first time, and then bad the 2nd time as the AI does not understand how the match works. The bot doesn't mention anything on width or tempo, two of the key parts for making a tactic for example

[themadsheep2001]

2 minutes ago, The3points said:

I don't think you're seeing my point here. I'm saying if someone said asked for a style to replicate x manager, or why their tactic isn't working, it wouldn't be sensible to use chatGPT. The info it gives you will be noticably awful the first time, and then bad the 2nd time as the AI does not understand how the match works. The bot doesn't mention anything on width or tempo, two of the key parts for making a tactic for example

This. It doesn't actually understand what it's saying. It's pseudo-knowledge 

[Mars_Blackmon]

9 minutes ago, The3points said:

I don't think you're seeing my point here. I'm saying if someone said asked for a style to replicate x manager, or why their tactic isn't working, it wouldn't be sensible to use chatGPT. The info it gives you will be noticably awful the first time, and then bad the 2nd time as the AI does not understand how the match works. The bot doesn't mention anything on width or tempo, two of the key parts for making a tactic for example

Hence why I said ask it specific questions. You have to feed it the data, It will also not solve a specific math problem for you unless you give it the formula...

 

It can pull data for you if you feed it data to why you are struggling with a tactic. the same information you would find online using google. If you tell it that you are using all defensive duties in your tactic and you can't score goals, if you ask it the right questions, it would give you suitable duties that work well with each other. Same thing you can find online after wasting hours.

 

It is not a magic button.

Edited January 18, 2023 by Mars_Blackmon

[The3points]

But the lack of width and tempo demonstrates that the AI doesn't understand the game. Because if it did, if it was programmed with FM info, it would have tempo and width as the forefront of its response. But it doesn't. 

[Mars_Blackmon]

9 minutes ago, The3points said:

But the lack of width and tempo demonstrates that the AI doesn't understand the game. Because if it did, if it was programmed with FM info, it would have tempo and width as the forefront of its response. But it doesn't. 

I never asked it about that though.

 

But it literally said Width - Narrow. Tempo - Normal.

Edited January 18, 2023 by Mars_Blackmon

[Mars_Blackmon]

10 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

This. It doesn't actually understand what it's saying. It's pseudo-knowledge 

It's literally a search engine. That's my main point.

[The3points]

You asked "give me a tactic" and it omitted the 3  biggest tactical instructions. For pep's it didn't mention anything about width, stretching the pitch or positional play things that you could easily find on google, and for Fergie it missed passing directness and width. Then it gave muddled nonsense about playing out of defence (when Fergie never did that), pass into space and work ball into box (which is partially contradictory to the pass into space

When passing directness, tempo, and width are not valued enough to the AI to the point it doesn't mention until asked, I wouldn't use it for advice

[The3points]

4 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

It's literally a search engine. That's my main point.

No it isn't. A search engine leads you to other resources. You said that beginners should go to chatGPT, take the advice, and then implement it

[enigmatic]

2 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

Data is from humans, it's not auto generated. Again, ask it specific questions. 

It is auto generated. It builds a big statistical model of all the stuff in its database so it knows that stuff like "the game Football Manager" is associated with specific phrases like "Play out of defence" which is associated with "Ball Playing Defender which is associated with "Pep Guardiola", and it has a model of how humans phrase stuff which includes enough FM-related content to know how to generate something that looks like a list of positions and instructions

What it doesn't know is how to actually play the game, the difference between PPMs and instructions or even that there are supposed to be 11 players on the pitch!

 

2 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

Then it gave an example of the one tactic it originally suggested. I didn't ask for a time period, a specific game. It gave an general idea.

It's complete nonsense though. Man Utd have literally never combined two strikers, a very deep defence and a high press, and that tactic would perform dreadfully to the extent it's actually possible to implement.

 

Just now, Mars_Blackmon said:

Hence why I said ask it specific questions. You have to feed it the data, It will also not solve a specific math problem for you unless you give it the formula...

 

It can pull data for you if you feed it data to why you are struggling with a tactic. the same information you would find only.

It doesn't pull data. It makes up sentences with words which are correlated with one another

Which means that as "counter attack" gets mentioned a fair bit in connection with "Sir Alex Ferguson", and "counter attack" also gets mentioned a lot in connection with "deep defence", it ends up giving you a suggested Man Utd tactical approach which is completely incoherent (despite there being dozens of Ferguson's Man Utd tactical recreations online)

You asked it a specific question. It gave you an answer which involved a lot of words which look very much like the football advice that people give except for being specifically wrong on most points. If you struggled with this tactic, it wouldn't tell you it was completely incoherent like people on the tactics forum would, it would suggest some largely random changes.

[Mars_Blackmon]

1 minute ago, The3points said:

You asked "give me a tactic" and it omitted the 3  biggest tactical instructions. For pep's it didn't mention anything about width, stretching the pitch or positional play things that you could easily find on google, and for Fergie it missed passing directness and width. Then it gave muddled nonsense about playing out of defence (when Fergie never did that), pass into space and work ball into box (which is partially contradictory to the pass into space

When passing directness, tempo, and width are not valued enough to the AI to the point it doesn't mention until asked, I wouldn't use it for advice

"Give me a tactic" is super vague...

When asked for team instructions, it will not leave out tempo, etc...

 

Also, Pass into space and work the ball in box is not contradictory.

 

 

 

 

[Mars_Blackmon]

23 minutes ago, The3points said:

No it isn't. A search engine leads you to other resources. You said that beginners should go to chatGPT, take the advice, and then implement it

If you ask it questions about a subject you are finding information about like "What is a Deep Lying Playmaker" it will tell you exactly what it is. Yes, a beginner should use that info to learn more about the game in real time.

[The3points]

25 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

"Give me a tactic" is super vague...

When asked for team instructions, it will not leave out tempo, etc...

 

Also, Pass into space and work the ball in box is not contradictory.

 

 

 

 

If I wrote an essay explaining the Premier League (tactics in the analogy) to a complete stranger to football, I'd mention 3 key things: it's the top english footballing division (roles), Format (Formation) and some teams (TIs)

Now if you read the essay and 5 teams it chose were Crystal Palace, Wolves, West Ham, Everton and Middlesbrough, the essay would be laughed off by many football watchers. Middlesbrough  for one, aren't in the league, and the league's 3 biggest teams in terms of success (United, Arsenal, Chelsea) aren't mentioned at all.

Someone could say "The Premier League is a broad topic, be more specific next time" but by missing key components you've failed at explaining something

Edited January 18, 2023 by The3points

[Mars_Blackmon]

1 hour ago, enigmatic said:

Quote

 

It is auto generated. It builds a big statistical model of all the stuff in its database so it knows that stuff like "the game Football Manager" is associated with specific phrases like "Play out of defence" which is associated with "Ball Playing Defender which is associated with "Pep Guardiola", and it has a model of how humans phrase stuff which includes enough FM-related content to know how to generate something that looks like a list of positions and instructions

What it doesn't know is how to actually play the game, the difference between PPMs and instructions or even that there are supposed to be 11 players on the pitch!

 

I never made the argument that it was able to play the game. I literally said it's pulling from data that's available and that is the reason why you need to ask it specific questions. We are in the machine learning phase of AI. The language model isn't going to tell you how to play the game unless you ask it specific questions about the game so it can pull data from. With that said, it's not going to know what you are talking about if it doesn't have the data it's been learning from. So no, it's not a random word generator using buzz words. As mentioned before, its data is up to date as of FM 2021.

Quote

It's complete nonsense though. Man Utd have literally never combined two strikers, a very deep defence and a high press, and that tactic would perform dreadfully to the extent it's actually possible to implement.

It never said very deep defense.

Quote

 

It doesn't pull data. It makes up sentences with words which are correlated with one another

Which means that as "counter attack" gets mentioned a fair bit in connection with "Sir Alex Ferguson", and "counter attack" also gets mentioned a lot in connection with "deep defence", it ends up giving you a suggested Man Utd tactical approach which is completely incoherent (despite there being dozens of Ferguson's Man Utd tactical recreations online)

You asked it a specific question. It gave you an answer which involved a lot of words which look very much like the football advice that people give except for being specifically wrong on most points. If you struggled with this tactic, it wouldn't tell you it was completely incoherent like people on the tactics forum would, it would suggest some largely random changes.

 

Respectfully, I don't think you know how OpenAI works. ChatGPT is one of many tools in its arsenal. ChatGPT literally can help you fix code. That doesn't suggest randomly pulling words that matches. And of course hitting one button doesn't automatically diagnose a problem with your code, you have to talk to it like a normal person...

 

Edited January 19, 2023 by Mars_Blackmon

[Mars_Blackmon]

22 minutes ago, The3points said:

If I wrote an essay explaining the Premier League (tactics in the analogy) to a complete stranger to football, I'd mention 3 key things: it's the top english footballing division (roles), Format (Formation) and some teams (TIs)

Now if you read the essay and 5 teams it chose were Crystal Palace, Wolves, West Ham, Everton and Middlesbrough, the essay would be laughed off by many football watchers. Middlesbrough  for one, aren't in the league, and the league's 3 biggest teams in terms of success (United, Arsenal, Chelsea) aren't mentioned at all.

Someone could say "The Premier League is a broad topic, be more specific next time" but by missing key components you've failed at explaining something

What does that have to do with asking vague questions to a AI that is in beta?

[The3points]

If you choose not to understand the analogy fine. But if I ask for something, and you exclude one of the key parts, no matter how vague the question, you haven't done a good job at all.

So if I was looking for help and asked for a Sir Alex tactic for FM23, and ChatGPT gives me an FM17 tactic without any mention of important team instructions such as passing directness or width, then ChatGPT is useless to me because it gives inaccurate information, and can't identify what is important

Edited January 19, 2023 by The3points

[Mars_Blackmon]

41 minutes ago, The3points said:

If you choose not to understand the analogy fine. But if I ask for something, and you exclude one of the key parts, no matter how vague the question, you haven't done a good job at all.

So if I was looking for help and asked for a Sir Alex tactic for FM23, and ChatGPT gives me an FM17 tactic without any mention of important team instructions such as passing directness or width, then ChatGPT is useless to me because it gives inaccurate information, and can't identify what is important

The problem with your response is that it did give me that info when I asked it a specific question about translating it into FM. Moreover, if you ask it for team instructions, it will provide them. Whether or not it gives 100% replica of a manager is irrelevant and it even suggested that they were starting points. Also the game itself doesn't even do a good job with replicating managers with its limitations so I don't even know why that is emphasized. The main point is when I asked it for other roles and duties that works well with an advance playmaker, it was spot on.

Edited January 19, 2023 by Mars_Blackmon

[enigmatic]

20 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

Respectfully, I don't think you know how OpenAI works. ChatGPT is one of many tools in its arsenal. ChatGPT literally can help you fix code. That doesn't suggest randomly pulling words that matches. And of course hitting one button doesn't automatically diagnose a problem with your code, you have to talk to it like a normal person...

Respectfully, I know a lot more about how Large Language Models like ChatGPT work than you do. It doesn't have "data" on how your tactic behaves or do "research", it's a big statistical model based on a lot of sentences previously written by humans, some of which were on the subject of Football Manager and football tactics in general, and so it can write similar sentences involving similar words which are statistically associated with your question, which may or may not have any correspondence to the actual thing that's making you lose games and might be complete nonsense, like telling you that your narrow width is complemented by shallow depth.

(and FWIW it's much better at doing simple one-hit syntactic operations with code than high level reasoning about it)

 

23 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

It never said very deep defense.

.The team would be instructed to defend deep in their own half, looking to soak up pressure2

Watched Sir Alex Ferguson's Man Utd literally hundreds of times, and I think he picked this as their starting defensive setup twice (home leg and away leg semi finals against Barcelona in 2007/8). For obvious reasons, he didn't combine this with attacking fullbacks and a front two. But ChatGPT doesn't get to watch Man Utd or play football manager, it just "knows" that Alex Ferguson is correlated with references to counter attack, and counter attack often involves instructions to "defend deep in their own half" and "soak up pressure", puts 2 and 2 together and makes 5

Lots of blogs by people that have watched Man Utd and played Football Manager do a better job. Ironically Siri can probably find you some...

 

2 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

When I asked it for other roles and duties that works well with an advance playmaker, it was spot on.

It's actually pretty bad (supposed to be a back four but also supposed to have wing backs in the wingback position, there's a weird mix of tactical instructions, PPMs, and other words which are sort of similar to tactical instructions and PPMs, and sticking your Advanced Playmaker as part of a front 3 with another playmaker behind is a quirky way of suggesting to use it). Not completely unusable like the Fergie formation, but I'm not sure it's any better than what a typical novice FMer might pick for themselves...

 

[The3points]

33 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

The problem with your response is that it did give me that info when I asked it a specific question about translating it into FM. Moreover, if you ask it for team instructions, it will provide them. Whether or not it gives 100% replica of a manager is irrelevant and it even suggested that they were starting points. Also the game itself doesn't even do a good job with replicating managers with its limitations so I don't even know why that is emphasized. The main point is when I asked it for other roles and duties that works well with an advance playmaker, it was spot on.

Right it gave you info about making an IRL tactic into a FM one. But missed the key parts, even when you asked for it to give you the whole tactic. The game does a much better job at replicating IRL managers than ChatGPT, and even so, it doesn't matter how bad the game is if you put in sub optimal data.

My issue isn't with the replications (even if its bad) my issue is when you said

20 hours ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

give me a tactically example

And it did not give all things required to make a tactic, missing key things such as passing directness and tempo. If the AI does not know what instruction carry more importance than others, than it is a bad tool for FM playing because not every instruction works equally

[Mars_Blackmon]

3 hours ago, enigmatic said:

 

Quote

 

espectfully, I know a lot more about how Large Language Models like ChatGPT work than you do. It doesn't have "data" on how your tactic behaves or do "research", it's a big statistical model based on a lot of sentences previously written by humans, some of which were on the subject of Football Manager and football tactics in general, and so it can write similar sentences involving similar words which are statistically associated with your question, which may or may not have any correspondence to the actual thing that's making you lose games and might be complete nonsense, like telling you that your narrow width is complemented by shallow depth.

(and FWIW it's much better at doing simple one-hit syntactic operations with code than high level reasoning about it)

 

We are going to have to agree to disagree I am not sure what you are trying to argue at this point, You literally just said the same exact thing I replied to you with. Yes, it is using data from knowledge that it has about FM. However, it is not giving you random irrelevant feedback to the questions you are asking which you seen to imply. This is evident when you start asking questions about strikerless formations or wild things like a formation without any defenders or clearly wrong ideas like using all defend duties to get a fluid team shape. Simply put, if you tell it that you are giving up lots of goals, it is going to give you some suggestion to fix the problem whether it may be lower the line or press less. The more specific the question, the more specific the answer. I never said it will magically fix your tactic which seem to be what you are trying to argue here.

 

Quote

 

Watched Sir Alex Ferguson's Man Utd literally hundreds of times, and I think he picked this as their starting defensive setup twice (home leg and away leg semi finals against Barcelona in 2007/8). For obvious reasons, he didn't combine this with attacking fullbacks and a front two. But ChatGPT doesn't get to watch Man Utd or play football manager, it just "knows" that Alex Ferguson is correlated with references to counter attack, and counter attack often involves instructions to "defend deep in their own half" and "soak up pressure", puts 2 and 2 together and makes 5

Lots of blogs by people that have watched Man Utd and played Football Manager do a better job. Ironically Siri can probably find you some...

 

https://breakingthelines.com/historical/manchester-united-2007-09-sir-alex-fergusons-greatest-masterpiece/

Quote

 

it also mention that the tactic it suggested was one of many tactics that he used and mentioned that he switches up. Those same blogs also mention of them playing a deep line.

It's actually pretty bad (supposed to be a back four but also supposed to have wing backs in the wingback position, there's a weird mix of tactical instructions, PPMs, and other words which are sort of similar to tactical instructions and PPMs, and sticking your Advanced Playmaker as part of a front 3 with another playmaker behind is a quirky way of suggesting to use it). Not completely unusable like the Fergie formation, but I'm not sure it's any better than what a typical novice FMer might pick for themselves...

 

Ive been using the tactic and been having success. It also checks out on the tactical analyzer from guidetofm and gives a 5 star tactic on ratemytactic. 

 

Edited January 19, 2023 by Mars_Blackmon

[Mars_Blackmon]

32 minutes ago, The3points said:

Right it gave you info about making an IRL tactic into a FM one. But missed the key parts, even when you asked for it to give you the whole tactic. The game does a much better job at replicating IRL managers than ChatGPT, and even so, it doesn't matter how bad the game is if you put in sub optimal data.

My issue isn't with the replications (even if its bad) my issue is when you said

And it did not give all things required to make a tactic, missing key things such as passing directness and tempo. If the AI does not know what instruction carry more importance than others, than it is a bad tool for FM playing because not every instruction works equally

You're trying to argue with me about the results of a grammatically incorrect and very vague question. We can agree to disagree, It a beta, don't use it, lol

Edited January 19, 2023 by Mars_Blackmon

[Gunblade]

As most say it wouldn't be that great to use as it is now, though is anyone actually suggesting it to be implemented into the game as it is now?

It has potential for sure, but not for a long time yet. AI is still too young in its infancy to be considered for natural text input and output in my opinion.

[enigmatic]

7 hours ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

We are going to have to agree to disagree I am not sure what you are trying to argue at this point, You literally just said the same exact thing I replied to you with. Yes, it is using data from knowledge that it has about FM. However, it is not giving you random irrelevant feedback to the questions you are asking which you seen to imply. This is evident when you start asking questions about strikerless formations or wild things like a formation without any defenders or clearly wrong ideas like using all defend duties to get a fluid team shape. Simply put, if you tell it that you are giving up lots of goals, it is going to give you some suggestion to fix the problem whether it may be lower the line or press less. The more specific the question, the more specific the answer. I never said it will magically fix your tactic which seem to be what you are trying to argue here.

Apart from the bit where you're insisting that ChatGPT isn't automatically generating responses but is doing "research" and pulling "data" and I'm talking about it being a word model with automatically generates responses based on text content I'm saying "literally the exact same thing" yeah, sure...

(incidentally, confidently insisting that two completely different and contradictory things are the same is one of ChatGPT's major weaknesses....)

It's a sentence generator, which sees words and responds with more words statistically related to those words in novel sentences. It's a lot better at this than a Markov chain, but the extent of its "knowledge" is pretty much limited to (sometimes) being able to apply basic logic to specify the correct number of players if you ask for a back four. Still, if ask it what formation to play after you've had a man sent off, it'll write some stuff associated with "man sent off" about defending more and then give you some words it knows which are different formations which all have 11 players

Sure, if you tell it you have some tactical problems it will - with no understanding of your tactic and how the different positions interact - write some sentences vaguely associated with tactical problems. Sometimes it might hit on one which is actually useful. But so can writing all the possible tactical changes and rolling a dice. Advantage of the latter is that it won't tell you to use tactical options that don't exist like setting Depth: Shallow!

 

Quote

 The more specific the question, the more specific the answer

You've given us quite a few examples of specific questions, half of which had specifically wrong options

I asked some specific questions about some silly formations myself and it wrote me a nice essay about changing roles in a "standard 4-4-3 formation"  (it was actually 5-5-3 tbh....) and  in a formation with no central defence or midfield it suggested the FB(S) role was too attacking...

 

7 hours ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

https://breakingthelines.com/historical/manchester-united-2007-09-sir-alex-fergusons-greatest-masterpiece/

A good example of a  blog which gives much more detail on how Man Utd played and would be far more useful than ChatGPT as a basis for trying to create your own version of Man Utd's 2007-9 era formation, yes. Things the blog doesn't suggest: that they played with a deep defensive line to soak up pressure. Because nobody who watched Man Utd play that way would suggest they were noted for setting up with a deep defensive line to soak up pressure (especially not how FM interprets deep defensive lines)

 

 

7 hours ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

Ive been using the tactic and been having success. It also checks out on the tactical analyzer from guidetofm and gives a 5 star tactic on ratemytactic.

I said the tactic was usable (if you ignore the bits of it which are wrong like a back four with wingbacks in the wingback position). But having a DLP as a primary playmaker and the AP in a wide role which wasn't even called "Advanced Playmaker" until recently is a pretty bad suggestion for understanding how to build a team around an Advanced Playmaker.

[Mars_Blackmon]

8 hours ago, enigmatic said:

Quote

 

Apart from the bit where you're insisting that ChatGPT isn't automatically generating responses but is doing "research" and pulling "data" and I'm talking about it being a word model with automatically generates responses based on text content I'm saying "literally the exact same thing" yeah, sure...

(incidentally, confidently insisting that two completely different and contradictory things are the same is one of ChatGPT's major weaknesses....)

It's a sentence generator, which sees words and responds with more words statistically related to those words in novel sentences. It's a lot better at this than a Markov chain, but the extent of its "knowledge" is pretty much limited to (sometimes) being able to apply basic logic to specify the correct number of players if you ask for a back four. Still, if ask it what formation to play after you've had a man sent off, it'll write some stuff associated with "man sent off" about defending more and then give you some words it knows which are different formations which all have 11 players

 

Based on statistics or data that it has on the game.

If I have a man sent off, what is the best formation to use?

Quote

If you have a man sent off in Football Manager, the best formation to use will depend on a variety of factors, including the time remaining in the game, the score of the game, the strengths and weaknesses of your remaining players, and the tactical approach of the opposing team.

In general, when a player is sent off, it's important to adjust your formation and tactics to compensate for the loss of a player. The best formation to use will depend on the situation of the match, but generally speaking, it's important to focus on defense and midfield to prevent the opposing team from scoring easy goals.

If the game is tied or you are losing, a defensive formation like 4-5-0 or 5-4-0 with a compact midfield and defense can help to protect your goal and prevent the opposing team from scoring.

If you are winning, but with more than 20 minutes remaining, you could consider using a formation that allows you to press forward and attack such as 4-4-1, which allows you to keep possession and score more goals.

It's important to keep in mind that the success of your tactics depends on the players you have, their attributes, and how they work together. It's also important to test and adjust your tactics as you progress through the game and to adapt your tactics according to the situation of the match.

8 hours ago, enigmatic said:

 

Quote

Sure, if you tell it you have some tactical problems it will - with no understanding of your tactic and how the different positions interact - write some sentences vaguely associated with tactical problems. Sometimes it might hit on one which is actually useful. But so can writing all the possible tactical changes and rolling a dice. Advantage of the latter is that it won't tell you to use tactical options that don't exist like setting Depth: Shallow!

Now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Quote

You've given us quite a few examples of specific questions, half of which had specifically wrong options

In your opinion and other than saying shallow depth from asking a vague  question about replicating a tactic.

Quote

I asked some specific questions about some silly formations myself and it wrote me a nice essay about changing roles in a "standard 4-4-3 formation"  (it was actually 5-5-3 tbh....) and  in a formation with no central defence or midfield it suggested the FB(S) role was too attacking...

So are you saying that proves your point of it randomly stringing words together? The entire idea of the tool is to use data points to avoid randomness. Again, you are arguing against something that I am not even suggesting. Its not going to magically give you secrets to unlocking the next best OP tactic...Ask it questions and its going to answer your questions based on the knowledge it has on the game. The whole idea of it is a CHAT it is learning data as the conversation goes. It is encourage to correct its answers. So using a Aha moment about it giving you wrong information about using too many players is moot. As I said before, a beginner doesn't mean an idiot. if it's given obvious wrong answers then correct it so it can learn from the data during the conversation in the chat. Its really no different from talking to a random on a forum...

Quote

A good example of a  blog which gives much more detail on how Man Utd played and would be far more useful than ChatGPT as a basis for trying to create your own version of Man Utd's 2007-9 era formation, yes. Things the blog doesn't suggest: that they played with a deep defensive line to soak up pressure. Because nobody who watched Man Utd play that way would suggest they were noted for setting up with a deep defensive line to soak up pressure (especially not how FM interprets deep defensive lines)

You seem to be stuck on very deep line which it never suggested.

 

Quote

I said the tactic was usable (if you ignore the bits of it which are wrong like a back four with wingbacks in the wingback position). But having a DLP as a primary playmaker and the AP in a wide role which wasn't even called "Advanced Playmaker" until recently is a pretty bad suggestion for understanding how to build a team around an Advanced Playmaker.

In your opinion.

Also, Advanced Playmaker was available as a AML/R in FM 21 which it has data points up to.

Edited January 19, 2023 by Mars_Blackmon

[XaW]

1 hour ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

If the game is tied or you are losing, a defensive formation like 4-5-0 or 5-4-0 with a compact midfield and defense can help to protect your goal and prevent the opposing team from scoring.

If you are winning, but with more than 20 minutes remaining, you could consider using a formation that allows you to press forward and attack such as 4-4-1, which allows you to keep possession and score more goals.

This is directly wrong though? Because if you are losing, why would you go overly defensive, and the opposite for the 2nd one. Why go attacking when you are leading?

This is the EXACT example of this not understanding context, but as @enigmatic says, links stuff together and forms sentences that are grammatically correct and with a lot of correct terms, but just using it totally wrong.

Also, I'd NEVER suggest going 4-5-0 or 5-4-0. Why? Because whenever your defense clears the ball, there are no one to contest it. I'd more suggest 4-4-1 as default and make sure the only ones venturing up in attack are the striker and the wingers.

[enigmatic]

It doesn't have statistics or data on the game. It has lots and lots of text, and the ability to write more text that looks similar

I'll say one thing for ChatGPT though, it does try to learn from people's text rather than just saying "now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing" when people who know much, much better than they do how LLMs work try to explain how it works and why it comes up with nonsense like Depth: Shallow (hint: it's because it maps very well to Width: Narrow in a word model, just not at all in a "how does football manager work" model...)

 

4 hours ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

You seem to be stuck on very deep line which it never suggested.

You seem to be very stuck pretending that you didn't quote ChatGPT saying The team would be instructed to defend deep in their own half, looking to soak up pressure , y'know, the two phrases I quoted back when pointing out how that advice was wrong.

Maybe you're an LLM and you're just designed to emit words whether you understand the conversation or not?

 

4 hours ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

The whole idea of it is a CHAT it is learning data as the conversation goes. It is encourage to correct its answers. So using a Aha moment about it giving you wrong information about using too many players is moot. As I said before, a beginner doesn't mean an idiot. if it's given obvious wrong answers then correct it so it can learn from the data during the conversation in the chat

The whole idea of a help tool is that you're supposed to be using to get help, not trying to help it 

A beginner doesn't mean an idiot, but it does mean someone that's going to spot subtle problems with the suggestions and be confused by the stuff that looks like tactical instructions but is actually just words statistically similar to tactical instructions...

 

 

Glad they've finally tweaked it so it stops suggesting standard formations when you have a man sent off though; that's actually an interesting discovery. Last time I tried that was yesterday, so it's progress  

Still, I just told it about having two players sent off and....

I am winning 1-0 but my right back and right wing are sent off. What formations could I play?

When you're winning 1-0 but your right back and right wing are sent off, it can be a difficult situation to manage. Here are a few formation options you could consider in this scenario:

1. 5-3-2: This formation would involve adding an extra defender and dropping one of your forwards. This would give you more defensive cover on the right side and make it harder for the opposition to break through, while also allowing you to maintain your lead.

2. 4-4-2: This formation would involve dropping one of your forwards and pushing one of your midfielders back to play as a defensive midfielder. This would give you more defensive cover on the right side and make it harder for the opposition to break through, while also allowing you to maintain your lead.

3. 3-5-2: This formation would involve adding an extra defender and dropping one of your forwards. This would give you more defensive cover on the right side and make it harder for the opposition to break through, while also allowing you to maintain your lead.

4. 4-3-3 (Diamond Midfield): This formation would involve dropping one of your forwards and pushing one of your midfielders back to play as a defensive midfielder, and also dropping another forward. This would give you more defensive cover on the right side and make it harder for the opposition to break through, while also allowing you to maintain your lead.

5. 3-5-1-1: This formation would involve dropping one of your forwards and pushing one of your midfielders back to play as a defensive midfielder, and also dropping another forward. This would give you more defensive cover on the right side and make it harder for the opposition to break through, while also allowing you to maintain your lead.

It's worth noting that the best formation for you would depend on your team's strengths and weaknesses, and the opposition you're playing against. It's also important to note that you'll also have to adjust the other players roles and duties to support the new formation, and use the team instructions and player instructions offered by Football Manager to make the most of your new formation and players.

The key is to maintain a balance between defense and offense, and to be able to keep the ball and create opportunities while being able to defend properly. You should also consider the time left in the game, and make sure that the formation you choose allows you to protect your lead and avoid conceding goals.

 

This is what you expect from a model that associates "dropping one of your forwards" and "more defensive cover on the right side" with "right wing sent off", and has a good model of how to format a list of formations. It even manages to associate "adding an extra defender" with 5-3-2 and 3-5-2, which would be impressive except for the very important point I haven't told it how many defenders I actually have...

It's not what you'd expect from a model that has a grasp of what formations and sendings off actually are...

Edited January 19, 2023 by enigmatic

[warlock]

4 hours ago, enigmatic said:

my right back and right wing are sent off. What formations could I play?

I'm sure you meant to mention it, but you can't play any of the suggested formations because you only have 8 outfield players and the suggestions all require 10. So, not particularly helpful. Or intelligent.

I'm staggered that this thing is still generating so much discussion. It's a parlour trick, designed to generate plausible-sounding text with no actual insight or intelligence. Probably great for call-centre applications or students desperate to beat an essay deadline. I mean:

6 hours ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

It's important to keep in mind that the success of your tactics depends on the players you have, their attributes, and how they work together. It's also important to test and adjust your tactics as you progress through the game and to adapt your tactics according to the situation of the match.

Great sentences, but utterly devoid of helpful information. How exactly might you "test and adjust your tactics" in the remaining 30 minutes since you had a man sent off? And what exactly is the difference between "adjust your tactics as you progress" and "adapt your tactics according to the situation"? If a human wrote that, every editor in the world would simply roll their eyes.

[Mars_Blackmon]

9 hours ago, XaW said:

This is directly wrong though? Because if you are losing, why would you go overly defensive, and the opposite for the 2nd one. Why go attacking when you are leading?

This is the EXACT example of this not understanding context, but as @enigmatic says, links stuff together and forms sentences that are grammatically correct and with a lot of correct terms, but just using it totally wrong.

Also, I'd NEVER suggest going 4-5-0 or 5-4-0. Why? Because whenever your defense clears the ball, there are no one to contest it. I'd more suggest 4-4-1 as default and make sure the only ones venturing up in attack are the striker and the wingers.

II mean if you want to leave out context to nit pick be my guess. It said consider, it didn't say "this is the way to play" I also suggested a 4-4-1 along with the formations that you would personally not use.

[Mars_Blackmon]

8 hours ago, enigmatic said:

It doesn't have statistics or data on the game. It has lots and lots of text, and the ability to write more text that looks similar

I'll say one thing for ChatGPT though, it does try to learn from people's text rather than just saying "now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing" when people who know much, much better than they do how LLMs work try to explain how it works and why it comes up with nonsense like Depth: Shallow (hint: it's because it maps very well to Width: Narrow in a word model, just not at all in a "how does football manager work" model...)

 

You seem to be very stuck pretending that you didn't quote ChatGPT saying The team would be instructed to defend deep in their own half, looking to soak up pressure , y'know, the two phrases I quoted back when pointing out how that advice was wrong.

Maybe you're an LLM and you're just designed to emit words whether you understand the conversation or not?

 

The whole idea of a help tool is that you're supposed to be using to get help, not trying to help it 

A beginner doesn't mean an idiot, but it does mean someone that's going to spot subtle problems with the suggestions and be confused by the stuff that looks like tactical instructions but is actually just words statistically similar to tactical instructions...

 

 

Glad they've finally tweaked it so it stops suggesting standard formations when you have a man sent off though; that's actually an interesting discovery. Last time I tried that was yesterday, so it's progress  

Still, I just told it about having two players sent off and....

I am winning 1-0 but my right back and right wing are sent off. What formations could I play?

When you're winning 1-0 but your right back and right wing are sent off, it can be a difficult situation to manage. Here are a few formation options you could consider in this scenario:

1. 5-3-2: This formation would involve adding an extra defender and dropping one of your forwards. This would give you more defensive cover on the right side and make it harder for the opposition to break through, while also allowing you to maintain your lead.

2. 4-4-2: This formation would involve dropping one of your forwards and pushing one of your midfielders back to play as a defensive midfielder. This would give you more defensive cover on the right side and make it harder for the opposition to break through, while also allowing you to maintain your lead.

3. 3-5-2: This formation would involve adding an extra defender and dropping one of your forwards. This would give you more defensive cover on the right side and make it harder for the opposition to break through, while also allowing you to maintain your lead.

4. 4-3-3 (Diamond Midfield): This formation would involve dropping one of your forwards and pushing one of your midfielders back to play as a defensive midfielder, and also dropping another forward. This would give you more defensive cover on the right side and make it harder for the opposition to break through, while also allowing you to maintain your lead.

5. 3-5-1-1: This formation would involve dropping one of your forwards and pushing one of your midfielders back to play as a defensive midfielder, and also dropping another forward. This would give you more defensive cover on the right side and make it harder for the opposition to break through, while also allowing you to maintain your lead.

It's worth noting that the best formation for you would depend on your team's strengths and weaknesses, and the opposition you're playing against. It's also important to note that you'll also have to adjust the other players roles and duties to support the new formation, and use the team instructions and player instructions offered by Football Manager to make the most of your new formation and players.

The key is to maintain a balance between defense and offense, and to be able to keep the ball and create opportunities while being able to defend properly. You should also consider the time left in the game, and make sure that the formation you choose allows you to protect your lead and avoid conceding goals.

 

This is what you expect from a model that associates "dropping one of your forwards" and "more defensive cover on the right side" with "right wing sent off", and has a good model of how to format a list of formations. It even manages to associate "adding an extra defender" with 5-3-2 and 3-5-2, which would be impressive except for the very important point I haven't told it how many defenders I actually have...

It's not what you'd expect from a model that has a grasp of what formations and sendings off actually are...

The blog I posted literally said defend deep in own half. If you interpret that as a very deep line then that is your opinion.

[Mars_Blackmon]

3 hours ago, warlock said:

I'm sure you meant to mention it, but you can't play any of the suggested formations because you only have 8 outfield players and the suggestions all require 10. So, not particularly helpful. Or intelligent.

I'm staggered that this thing is still generating so much discussion. It's a parlour trick, designed to generate plausible-sounding text with no actual insight or intelligence. Probably great for call-centre applications or students desperate to beat an essay deadline. I mean:

Great sentences, but utterly devoid of helpful information. How exactly might you "test and adjust your tactics" in the remaining 30 minutes since you had a man sent off? And what exactly is the difference between "adjust your tactics as you progress" and "adapt your tactics according to the situation"? If a human wrote that, every editor in the world would simply roll their eyes.

Again, It is a beta and not a math machine. Tell it that you only have 8 men. I did the same experiments.

Furthermore, if you cannot comprehend that sentence, then a good thing that you are not an editor.

Edited January 20, 2023 by Mars_Blackmon

[XaW]

3 hours ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

II mean if you want to leave out context to nit pick be my guess. It said consider, it didn't say "this is the way to play" I also suggested a 4-4-1 along with the formations that you would personally not use.

Now you are just being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative. You said it can give good advise, but when it gives factually wrong advise, such as going more attacking when leading and getting a red card AND going more defensively to avoid conceding more when losing, then that just shows it does not understand the matter it is discussing. I'm not leaving context, I'm staying on YOUR example! YOU copied that, and I'm pointing out the objectively wrong info it gives IN YOUR EXAMPLE. That's not leaving out context, that's on YOU for missing it when you copied it in here. You just gave me the argument for why it DOESN'T work. I wasn't much part of this discussion, but when you give objectively bad advise and claim the AI knows what it's talking about, then I have to involve myself.

I'm FOR using AI and ML in software in general, but as I work with it in my job actually testing how machine learning can improve things in the software my company delivers (I can't go into details, because you know, trade secrets), I know very well how powerful it can be, but also how insanely easy it is to get a wrong connection that screws things up. So while this is a very exciting topic and an interesting debate to be had, we need to discuss in good faith here. And when you present the results like they are correct when they are objectively wrong, you don't. I think something like this could be very interesting further down the line, when the technology has matured, but as I pointed out in my last post, it's clearly still very flawed and far from ready to be used in less formalized tasks, like tactical advise.

[enigmatic]

4 hours ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

The blog I posted literally said defend deep in own half. If you interpret that as a very deep line then that is your opinion.

It literally didn't. The word "defend" appears in it twice, once in reference to set pieces and once in reference to them forming a compact block, which it explains in more detail in the next section. It's a mid block, to block passing lanes in the centre of the pitch, not a low block deep in their own half. They had Rio Ferdinand and Patrice Evra ffs, they didn't need to crowd the penalty area to control the space in behind!

Again, if you are a bot who has never watched Man Utd and doesn't know what a mid block is, it's understandable you link the word "defend" to "defend deep in own half". But they are not the same thing at all.

[forameuss]

8 hours ago, WilliamSerna said:

The power AI has is so scary but impressive at the same time. If it really can do what it said it can, that is truly a game changer. I'm curious if it can write in depth topics such as <SPAM REDACTED>

^^^

Gets its point across better than ChatGPT

[V3ntricity]

I can't believe there are people in here that argues against this. Either you don't understand AI or you are nitpicking AI answers for faults. 

But it's not about using ChatGPT as it is, that would be terrible. It's about using it (or tools like it) with an added context that is FM, training it and developing models for use in game. This could greatly enhance immersion and solve one of the major problems of FM, which is the tedious repetition of text and processes.

This is not complicated to do anymore, especially on a smaller scale. Just making the same game reviews and conversations in game a little bit more interesting would help alot.

Look, I get that it is not necessarily easy to hook up a service like this in decades old c++ code just to inject some text.  Game developers tend not to be the best at writing maintainable code. But in theory this is easy, and in reality this is a challenge and opportunity you probably should take. 

Edited January 20, 2023 by V3ntricity

[themadsheep2001]

They aren't arguing against AI, but this particular AI, which is currently crap, especially as a help tool. That's been the core of the discussion. AI in general is different discussion. If you're going to have a pop, at least have the courtesy to read the detail and context they have posted