QF4: England vs France, 7PM GMT, Al Bayt Stadium

[Weezer]

44 minutes ago, outlander said:

France actually beats strong opponents though. In 2018 they defeated Belgium and Argentina.

People praise here great achievements under Southgate but how many times did they defeat strong teams in the play-offs in the last 2 WCs and Euros?

Germany arguably. Not sure if they were not considered massive underdogs back then.

And lost to Belgium, Italy and now France. And a loss against Croatia obviously. 

Not sure if that is such a great achievement overall on the balance of those results. England was effective against weaker teams during that period. That's true but not more than that.

 

[Coulthard's Jaw]

 

[Ackter]

I don't get why penalty taking practice isn't the coach shouting where to aim for just before the run up so players get used to quick decision making and versatility. Theyd need very good shots too as the keepers would know where theyre aiming and would get more practice at reading the body language of the different shots.

[error username in use]

He also has a relegation to his name let’s not forget that 

I just feel like we are wasting an exciting generation here that can play attractive front foot football…. Instead we cautiously plot around and can technically outplay teams that are poor, but then rely on luck to get past anyone half decent.

Hes had a fair crack of the whip and won nothing at all.

[Ackter]

Southgate has two tactical ploys:

1. Pass it around defence for 5 minutes until Maguire does a long pass to the opposition.

2. WINGS 

 

 

 

[mrw072]

4 minutes ago, Ackter said:

Southgate has two tactical ploys:

1. Pass it around defence for 5 minutes until Maguire does a long pass to the opposition.

2. WINGS 

 

 

 

If he stays on he also needs to put his faith in actual strikers too.  Foden and Saka are good players but neither are what I would class as a striker - a natural goalscorer, someone who can get past defenders really.  Unless he's prepared to change things a bit I think it'll be more of the same to come.

[The_jagster]

Thread is unclear whether his misses in games with two pens have been taking the first or second penalty, which is a key part of his reasoning.

[GunmaN1905]

31 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

 

 

18 minutes ago, mrw072 said:

If he stays on he also needs to put his faith in actual strikers too.  Foden and Saka are good players but neither are what I would class as a striker - a natural goalscorer, someone who can get past defenders really.  Unless he's prepared to change things a bit I think it'll be more of the same to come.

 Southgate actually has a lot of question marks when it comes to using his players properly.

We all know the right-back situation and Trent being completely out of the picture.

Tomori or White never got a chance. Maguire didn't make any of his usual mistakes, but just playing him means your defense has to drop several meters deeper because he's painfully slow.

Rice has looked completely lost throughout the entire tournament. I haven't seen enough of his club matches, but when I asked people say that his role is completely wrong.

Mount is his favorite player, but has also been just kind of there.

Foden was completely cut off on the left, not allowed to do his thing with picking up the ball, played like a pure winger.

Kane is more or less a midfielder in a lot of situations.

Saka was great, but completely alone because he prefers Walker not crossing the half-way line.

Bellingham is just too good to be anonymous despite poor midfield setup where everyone somehow goes wide.

Now tell me which players except for Maguire look better playing for NT than they do for their club? Because every decent NT has some players who are somehow average for their club, but step up for NT.

Meanwhile England has a stacked squad, ridiculous depth up front and yet somehow almost every player is less effective than they are for their club.

[SteveUK]

15 hours ago, skybluedave said:

It's not the most exciting list is it. Christ, Steve Holland would be depressing choice. I still maintain Poch. Not fussed about them being foreign. He's got the best out of Kane in that 4231 he played. And we have the players to fit that well. 

The England job is much more appealing then it was 5 years ago. I can see a few different names being interested that weren't before, now they thinking '3 & half year contract, 2 tournaments, I could be the guy that finally wins something with them'

Aside from the top two, it looks like a candidate list of who's going to be the next manager of Reading or some other championship level team

 

[Smallen]

I’ve been critical of him but Rice was good against France. They had clearly been working on getting him to pass through lines more.

[Smallen]

like he can still do more, but he progressed the ball better than any of France’s midfielders.

The main issue, I think, was Shaw. He did not progress the ball forwards to Foden or Kane much at all. And I think Shaw had had an outstanding tournament before that before anyone accuses me of ABU.

[TalkSport]

2 hours ago, outlander said:

France actually beats strong opponents though. In 2018 they defeated Belgium and Argentina.

People praise here great achievements under Southgate but how many times did they defeat strong teams in the play-offs in the last 2 WCs and Euros?

Germany arguably. Not sure if they were not considered massive underdogs back then.

And lost to Belgium, Italy and now France. And a loss against Croatia obviously. 

Not sure if that is such a great achievement overall on the balance of those results. England was effective against weaker teams during that period. That's true but not more than that.

 

When I looked other day since start of WC18, against Croatia/Spain/Italy/France/Germany/Belgium it's something like 5 wins in 18 games I think, more defeats than wins. During that period, Germany won less than 50% of all their games too  

We have closed the gap as the France game showed, but still came up short. Italy x2 probably only named side we'll face before Euro24.

[TalkSport]

4 minutes ago, Smallen said:

like he can still do more, but he progressed the ball better than any of France’s midfielders.

The main issue, I think, was Shaw. He did not progress the ball forwards to Foden or Kane much at all. And I think Shaw had had an outstanding tournament before that before anyone accuses me of ABU.

Think problem was that Foden was being man marked to the extreme by Kounde, so passing option was rarely ever on. Would've been a much more risky pass to make if you wanted to keep things tight. 

Interesting to see from that Grizemann and Giroud, in comparison to us. We nullified Mbappe threat, but Grizemann just went to the otherside a lot more to get the ball and be dangerous with it. We just don't have the same, well Kane does it but then it needs the runners beyond which is hard (and often seen before) against sides that are deeper.

Do think the next evolution of this side in a 4-3-3, is being able to keep Kane high in same Giroud is for France and have one of the CMs pick the ball up in those spaces.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

tbh I think conflating our results at the 2018 WC with everything since the pandemic feels a bit off to me. The team and squad are so different now.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

12 minutes ago, pearcey_90 said:

Do think the next evolution of this side in a 4-3-3, is being able to keep Kane high in same Giroud is for France and have one of the CMs pick the ball up in those spaces.

Kane and England will have a decision to make. He could definitely go on another 4 years (at least!), happens with other international teams, but he will become less mobile so then you have to decide where you want to play him, as a deep second striker or someone leading the line.

[Smallen]

When you look at our abundance of young players, there aren’t any strikers coming through at all. Kane will be here in 4 years. He might even be here in 8 years considering how he looks after himself.

[TalkSport]

4 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

Kane and England will have a decision to make. He could definitely go on another 4 years (at least!), happens with other international teams, but he will become less mobile so then you have to decide where you want to play him, as a deep second striker or someone leading the line.

As long as he doesn't have regular injuries, should still be leading the line come next WC. Even without pace, he's intelligence is up there. How he kept rolling Upmanecano is the sort of thing that you don't lose over time, if anything become more clever with it. Plus he's a finisher, even if he was just slightly off with that chance against Lloris (just as much good goalkeeping that than to blame Kane).

[The_jagster]

Kane could easily be great deeper or become what he was at the start of last season where he was pretty ineffective (Raul still scored for Wolves under Nuno so it's not just Nuno's fault imo) if he loses more physically.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

13 minutes ago, Smallen said:

When you look at our abundance of young players, there aren’t any strikers coming through at all. Kane will be here in 4 years. He might even be here in 8 years considering how he looks after himself.

We aren't the only country facing this problem (if fitness issues had worked out differently France would have a 36 and a 34 year old up front!). Big opportunity for a young England striker to step up.

[Smallen]

Kane will be fine as he gets older imo. He’s relies more on his intelligence than his physicality in duels anyway.

I think you always need a Rashford/Sterling/Son type with him though. Neither Saka or Sterling really want to run through the middle off him because it’s not their game. Another reason to get Foden central!

Edited December 12, 2022 by Smallen

[GunmaN1905]

2 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

We aren't the only country facing this problem (if fitness issues had worked out differently France would have a 36 and a 34 year old up front!). Big opportunity for a young England striker to step up.

Everyone is facing the same problem. A bit off-topic, but unfortunately true #9 is getting pretty close to extinction.

Looking at every top country, there's literally no next big thing when it comes to strikers. Goncalo Ramos being the only noticable name.

It's not a coincidence, there's something definitely off with striker development.

There's Haaland, Vlahović, Osimhen and Šeško from what I've seen, the rest looks pretty unconvincing.

[Weezer]

22 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

There's Haaland, Vlahović, Osimhen and Šeško from what I've seen, the rest looks pretty unconvincing.

Moukoko?

[GunmaN1905]

6 minutes ago, Weezer said:

Moukoko?

Sure, but I was referring only to traditional #9 strikers with physical and aerial presence.

There are quite a few of those quick, shorter strikers.

[Barry Cartman]

Most frustrating thing for me was at 1-1 it was clear Foden was only getting involved when he wandered into the centre, so the obvious substitution to take the game to France was Henderson for Grealish/Rashford/Sterling and get Foden on the ball more. Instead his subs all went the way of his loyalty ones and although Mount ended up lucking into winning a penalty, he didn't have any sort of impact on the side 

Even if Foden comes off because he's having little impact, the obvious sub for me was Grealish

Said it a few times throughout, but Declan Rice was by far our most disappointing player, he was always the one who had the most time on the ball and he never looked like affecting a game by either bringing the ball forward or finding a pass through midfield 

[forameuss]

2 hours ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

 

That is an interesting take, but the way Kane hits them - which in my eyes is how penalties should be hit, and that's hard - if a keeper does go the right way, he's still got a massive job on to save it.  From 12 yards, you, as a keeper, probably have to move really early to save a well-struck penalty going into the corner.  And that's always going to be a big risk, as you're still just guessing.  

It is interesting though.  I can see why someone would be facing that second penalty and have those doubts.  But you'd like to think your best finisher would have the confidence given his usual penalty style to stick to his convictions.  Put it this way, if he rattles it in the exact same place, and Lloris saves it, it looks a lot better than going all Johnny Wilkinson. 

[m_fenton]

2 hours ago, GunmaN1905 said:

Now tell me which players except for Maguire look better playing for NT than they do for their club? Because every decent NT has some players who are somehow average for their club, but step up for NT.

Meanwhile England has a stacked squad, ridiculous depth up front and yet somehow almost every player is less effective than they are for their club.

Pickford and Maguire are regularly far, far better for England than their clubs. Saka was for a while, until his Arsenal form caught up. Phillips broke through for England before he really stood out in the Premier League. Henderson was far better for England this tournament than he has been recently for his club. Shaw has been consistently good for England, in a way he hasn't consistently for his club. Rashford has 4 goals in 14 games for Man Utd this year, but 3 in 5 for England. How many examples do you need?

[GunmaN1905]

6 minutes ago, m_fenton said:

Pickford and Maguire are regularly far, far better for England than their clubs. Saka was for a while, until his Arsenal form caught up. Phillips broke through for England before he really stood out in the Premier League. Henderson was far better for England this tournament than he has been recently for his club. Shaw has been consistently good for England, in a way he hasn't consistently for his club. Rashford has 4 goals in 14 games for Man Utd this year, but 3 in 5 for England. How many examples do you need?

Just the reply I tried to get.

What do Pickford, Maguire, Henderson, Phillips, Shaw and even Rashford have in common?

They're subpar to average players for top level. Except Rashford, but he obviously has confidence issues due to MUTD being shambolic.

And what does Southgate do?

Instead of using average players who fit well together with quality players, he brings down the level of play from your best players in order to accomodate the likes of Maguire and Shaw.

[themadsheep2001]

Shaw's been easily among the better full backs at the world cup. So this is a baffling point to make. Rashford has been very good for club and taken that to country. Absolute nonsense post. 

[Smallen]

Yeah, and we also have nobody anywhere near Shaw’s level to play left back instead either. It’s a necessity rather than a choice.

[m_fenton]

26 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

Just the reply I tried to get.

What do Pickford, Maguire, Henderson, Phillips, Shaw and even Rashford have in common?

They're subpar to average players for top level. Except Rashford, but he obviously has confidence issues due to MUTD being shambolic.

And what does Southgate do?

Instead of using average players who fit well together with quality players, he brings down the level of play from your best players in order to accomodate the likes of Maguire and Shaw.

Pickford almost single-handidly won us the Euros during that shootout ffs  We'd be putting statues of him up if the others hadn't missed theirs.

[themadsheep2001]

Ultimately the side was good enough to win, but didn't make enough of the fine margins. Could have one that on another day, bitterly disappointing but doesn't need sweeping assessments of a whole squad 

[Coulthard's Jaw]

12 minutes ago, m_fenton said:

Pickford almost single-handidly won us the Euros during that shootout ffs  We'd be putting statues of him up if the others hadn't missed theirs.

That save from Jorginho is one of the great England moments nobody remembers.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

12 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Ultimately the side was good enough to win, but didn't make enough of the fine margins. Could have one that on another day, bitterly disappointing but doesn't need sweeping assessments of a whole squad 

Loath as I am to quote his punditry, but for once Keane was spot on when he said top level sport is brutal. 

[GunmaN1905]

11 minutes ago, m_fenton said:

Pickford almost single-handidly won us the Euros during that shootout ffs  We'd be putting statues of him up if the others hadn't missed theirs.

Shootouts are largely irrelevant for goalkeeper's actual ability.

Livaković is 27 and saved 2 penalties in his entire career up until last week.

9 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Ultimately the side was good enough to win, but didn't make enough of the fine margins. Could have one that on another day, bitterly disappointing but doesn't need sweeping assessments of a whole squad 

That's the problem, imo.

You can't get away with fine margins excuse three tournaments in a row.

Faced three top level opponents and lost three times, it's not like Southgate went though top opponents to reach latter stages, so fine margins can be the excuse.

23 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Shaw's been easily among the better full backs at the world cup. So this is a baffling point to make. Rashford has been very good for club and taken that to country. Absolute nonsense post. 

Kane is your best and most experienced player, plays in midfield half the time. Under-utilized, without a question.

Foden is your by far the most creative player and the only true playmaker in squad, but he's stuck all the way out on the wing without enough involvement.

TAA is just deadly when utilized properly, but he's nowhere to be seen. Completely out of the picture.

Saka is only playing because Sterling has had the worst year of his career. And instead of utilizing Saka's ability to dribble past multiple opponents and pair him with TAA, Southgate prefers to play Walker and instruct him not to cross the half-way line. Please don't pull the Mbappe card, he would've played Walker against every opponent.

[themadsheep2001]

I mean, you can. You will lose cups more than you'll win them. Kane wasn't under utilised at all. His availability to build and create is just as important as his ability to score. 

For all the criticisms I have of Southgate, they don't really apply to that France game. 

And he'd have played Reece James

[themadsheep2001]

25 minutes ago, m_fenton said:

Pickford almost single-handidly won us the Euros during that shootout ffs  We'd be putting statues of him up if the others hadn't missed theirs.

Pickford's largely been brilliant for England, from his shotstopping to his distribution 

[GunmaN1905]

9 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

For all the criticisms I have of Southgate, they don't really apply to that France game.

That's the worst bit for me.

One match made everyone forget all the awful tactical decisions he made over the years.

[themadsheep2001]

Just now, GunmaN1905 said:

That's the worst bit for me.

One match made everyone forget all the awful tactical decisions he made over the years.

No one has forgotten, they just don't apply to that game. It's not difficult to understand 

[JD nawrat]

11 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

I mean, you can. You will lose cups more than you'll win them. Kane wasn't under utilised at all. His availability to build and create is just as important as his ability to score. 

For all the criticisms I have of Southgate, they don't really apply to that France game. 

And he'd have played Reece James

Not even being overly cautious or making crap subs? 

[m_fenton]

35 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

Shootouts are largely irrelevant for goalkeeper's actual ability.

Livaković is 27 and saved 2 penalties in his entire career up until last week.

Pickford's general play for England is miles ahead of his general play for Everton though - but if you're asking for examples of big moments you don't get much bigger than the Euro Final shootout.

[Rob1981]

55 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

That save from Jorginho is one of the great England moments nobody remembers.

Rooney scoring this and then we still lose 2-1

[The_jagster]

Big man flick on from Michael Owen

[Astafjevs]

Shootouts are definitely not irrelevant for a goalkeeper's ability on penalties. 

[Citizen Sandman]

26 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

Rooney scoring this and then we still lose 2-1

Swp the goat

[JD nawrat]

16 minutes ago, Astafjevs said:

Shootouts are definitely not irrelevant for a goalkeeper's ability on penalties. 

He said largely irrelevant tbf, and he's not wrong. David De Gea for example has a Pen Save% of ~18%. 

Willy Caballero was an average GK but saved around 42%.

NB: Don't know if anyone records actual penalty shootout records, so this is just actual matches.

[Astafjevs]

Shootouts and a goalkeeper's actual ability as a goalkeeper is not what the post implied though. And that's not what my reply was about either.

It suggested that a goalkeeper's ability at saving penalties has little bearing on their ability to replicate that in shootouts, and I don't think that's true

[Bootador]

I think this is a really good clip highlighting what Stones is good at, we need to stop playing him as full back at City now Walker is back fit. Also shows Rice doing nothing as per usual.

 

[themadsheep2001]

1 hour ago, Bootador said:

I think this is a really good clip highlighting what Stones is good at, we need to stop playing him as full back at City now Walker is back fit. Also shows Rice doing nothing as per usual.

 

Yeah it's brilliant play. But no idea what Rice is doing. He's literally hidden himself from Stones as a passing option. He's not an idiot and neither is Southgate so I can only assume it's deliberate I'm not sure why. Just need to take two step either way (go to 8 second) and he can turn and carry 

[TalkSport]

That was how he was against Senegal too. Can only think it’s a combination of tactics/lack of intelligence. Being told to stay central so he literally stays central, but then not having the required intelligence that he can still keep getting the ball by staying central if he just moved 2 yards left or right. 

Still not much wrong overall as he was great at stopping counters, it just meant we needed someone else to show further central but Bellingham/Henderson in both games were more wider, with the wingers hugging the touchline. 

Probably felt like the best way to play a 4 and keep the threat away from the CB was to keep the ball wide so you lose it there rather than centrally. Probably not the case, but must be some logic behind the approach. 

[Ackter]

It's like he was told to not make himself available and concentrate only on defensively anchoring the "midfield".